Pokémon Klefki

[Punchshroom]

Kokoloko was claiming that with its usable bulk and good defensive typing, SwagKey can minimize the risk of a failed Swagger and also can easily set up Sub on a helpless Pokemon to go to work. Now that combined with SwagPlay isn't really anything very new, as other Pokemon like Sableye and Encore Liepard can pull this off in a similar (albeit slightly less effective) manner, but it just so happens that Klefki gets Spikes to capitalize on the several switches the opponent would be making.

I get where kokoloko is coming from, but I still don't think it is enough to push Klefki over the edge, given the odds of Swagger even working successfully on the first turn is less than 50%, and the possibility of an early snap-out puts Klefki (and probably its team) at risk.

Punchshroom, that doesn't change anything what I just said. SwagKey is a risky coinflip, whereas Moody is flipping a weighted coin. Relating SwagKey to something as ridiculous as Moody is a hyperbole.

Pocket, I wasn't the one who brought it up btw.

 

[Chameleon]

How useful do you guys think Fairy Lock is on Klefki in general? It seems well suited for it. On one hand, the opponent doesn't want to knock out Klefki because it might leave itself trapped against another Pokemon, but there's the risk of Klefki setting up spikes or using status if it's left alive.

With a partner like Mach Punch / Power-up Punch Breloom, you can do some nifty things like eliminate Terrakion or T-Tar or set up PuP on Blissey (or anything low on HP or fighting weak) thanks to the lock. It also seems like the only way to reliably use Fell Stinger, which is a terribly situational option almost reliant on a switching lock. Not that I recommend using it, anyway.

Problems include relying on the opponent to knock you out, and giving up a moveslot to something that requires fainting and team support to be useful. Optimally you won't start spamming it until you're low on HP or if you're Toxic trapping them. All theorymon btw.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

stop using the swagger set its lamme has hell , with so many possibilities to use this poke people choose the most retard way

I use the Swagger set, and I initially choose it as a specially defensive variant. I do not use it Swagger set because I like to use annoying or "lucksacking" tactics to win; I use it because I primarily like the Prankster ability to reliably paralyze Pokemon so they can be easier to deal with and its defensive typing. I choose the Swagger set because I can exploit it better than 8 turns of dual Screens (and the opportunity cost of that is no leftovers for Klefki) or Spikes. It is not uncounterable though since a Pokemon like Gliscor will laugh at T-wave and say "thank you sir, may I have another" for Swagger as it doesn't mind hitting itself due to its high physical defenses and welcomes a boosted Earthquake.

I do not feel proud that I won a matches with it because I have residual feelings that it was "unclean" since I felt like I got lucky, and I do not know if my victory reflects a strong tactical sense or just dumb luck. Much planning was involved in the construction of the team and considering many possible situations. But the game relies on luck, even prediction relies on luck too since you are acting on incomplete information about your opponent's temperament, sets, and EV spreads, and your judgment may be wrong because your opponent may be running an unorthodox EV spread or set. It does require some skill to use the Swagger set effectively, since one needs assess the probabilities and choose the best move with it based on the context. The Swagger set is not something one can slap on a team to be effective: for example, I use priority attackers to hedge the risk of using Swagger on physical attackers, and EVed an Iron Fist, Life Orb Conkeldurr so it can outrun base uninvested 50s and positive nature base 115s when Conkeldurr is affected by Sticky Web.

SwagKey is nowhere near uncompetitive as Moody. Moody is mashing Protect + Substitute for Speed / Evasion boosts, and once the chain starts there's very little you can do about it. There is almost no risk for the Moody user while it is clicking Protect + Substitute, buying time for the desired boosts. If it doesn't get the required boosts on time, it merely switches out and wait for another chance to arise. Smeargle being able to pass these boosts is what made it all the more terrifying. I've played against Moody users in the Ubers suspect tests, and it was pure unadultered luckfest.

SwagPlay is "uncompetitive" in the same sense as speed ties or missing with hypnosis is uncompetitive. If Klefki hits something with Swagger, it still has 50% chance of getting mauled. It's not a "free +2 confusion with no risks involved," much unlike Moody's "free boosts with no risks involved." The turn it uses Swagger is the turn it is susceptible to being banged up. You can mitigate the damage from Foul Play by switching out your confused +2 Pokemon out, forcing Klefki to risk another Swagger. It's a predictable, manageable, and inconsistent strategy.

Punchshroom, that doesn't change anything what I just said. SwagKey is a risky coinflip, whereas Moody is flipping a weighted coin. Relating SwagKey to something as ridiculous as Moody is a hyperbole.[/quote]

It is definitely a luck-based Pokemon, but if you do believe that you have favorable odds over the long run, then it is not really luck. It's the same reason why Tony Gwynn Sr. may go 0-4 in a given game, but nevertheless, he was an excellent player compared to other plays who got a base hit in that given game due to his career .340 batting average. It is why baseball teams favor .300 hitters over .250 hitters all else being equal, even though the difference does not manifest itself in a given game. I do not see how this is different from running Focus Blast for a 70% chance to kill a Tyranitar or KO steel types, Lando-T or TTar running Stone Edge to KO Talonflame at full health (or Rock Slide and that works better with paralysis support as a means of exploiting flinch-hax but with lower power in most cases,), or Scald on bulky support water Pokemon. You do need more than on Pokemon to take on ground types when running SwagKeys and (Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and Espeon scare me). The user of SwagKeys has to think like a baseball general manager; one game does not matter, and make peace with the fact you may not get the hax going your way sometimes and that would cost you games. It is best to acknowledge now that the player of SwagKeys is not using it as a means to play psychological warfare or induce rage quits, but a person thinking rationally about the odds.

Jirachi was a stalwart in the Gen 5 metagame, but it wasn't banned due to its notorious flinch haxing.

 

[Halcyon.]

I use the Swagger set, and I initially choose it as a specially defensive variant. I do not use it Swagger set because I like to use annoying or "lucksacking" tactics to win; I use it because I primarily like the Prankster ability to reliably paralyze Pokemon so they can be easier to deal with and its defensive typing. I choose the Swagger set because I can exploit it better than 8 turns of dual Screens (and the opportunity cost of that is no leftovers for Klefki) or Spikes. It is not uncounterable though since a Pokemon like Gliscor will laugh at T-wave and say "thank you sir, may I have another" for Swagger as it doesn't mind hitting itself due to its high physical defenses and welcomes a boosted Earthquake.

I do not feel proud that I won a matches with it because I have residual feelings that it was "unclean" since I felt like I got lucky, and I do not know if my victory reflects a strong tactical sense or just dumb luck. Much planning was involved in the construction of the team and considering many possible situations. But the game relies on luck, even prediction relies on luck too since you are acting on incomplete information about your opponent's temperament, sets, and EV spreads, and your judgment may be wrong because your opponent may be running an unorthodox EV spread or set. It does require some skill to use the Swagger set effectively, since one needs assess the probabilities and choose the best move with it based on the context. The Swagger set is not something one can slap on a team to be effective: for example, I use priority attackers to hedge the risk of using Swagger on physical attackers, and EVed an Iron Fist, Life Orb Conkeldurr so it can outrun base uninvested 50s and positive nature base 115s when Conkeldurr is affected by Sticky Web.



SwagPlay is "uncompetitive" in the same sense as speed ties or missing with hypnosis is uncompetitive. If Klefki hits something with Swagger, it still has 50% chance of getting mauled. It's not a "free +2 confusion with no risks involved," much unlike Moody's "free boosts with no risks involved." The turn it uses Swagger is the turn it is susceptible to being banged up. You can mitigate the damage from Foul Play by switching out your confused +2 Pokemon out, forcing Klefki to risk another Swagger. It's a predictable, manageable, and inconsistent strategy.

Punchshroom, that doesn't change anything what I just said. SwagKey is a risky coinflip, whereas Moody is flipping a weighted coin. Relating SwagKey to something as ridiculous as Moody is a hyperbole.

It is definitely a luck-based Pokemon, but if you do believe that you have favorable odds over the long run, then it is not really luck. It's the same reason why Tony Gwynn Sr. may go 0-4 in a given game, but nevertheless, he was an excellent player compared to other plays who got a base hit in that given game due to his career .340 batting average. It is why baseball teams favor .300 hitters over .250 hitters all else being equal, even though the difference does not manifest itself in a given game. I do not see how this is different from running Focus Blast for a 70% chance to kill a Tyranitar or KO steel types, Lando-T or TTar running Stone Edge to KO Talonflame at full health (or Rock Slide and that works better with paralysis support as a means of exploiting flinch-hax but with lower power in most cases,), or Scald on bulky support water Pokemon. You do need more than on Pokemon to take on ground types when running SwagKeys and (Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and Espeon scare me). The user of SwagKeys has to think like a baseball general manager; one game does not matter, and make peace with the fact you may not get the hax going your way sometimes and that would cost you games. It is best to acknowledge now that the player of SwagKeys is not using it as a means to play psychological warfare or induce rage quits, but a person thinking rationally about the odds.

Jirachi was a stalwart in the Gen 5 metagame, but it wasn't banned due to its notorious flinch haxing.

Jirachi, Speed ties, and missing Hypnosis are not the same as Klefki because the latter two are all risks that YOU choose to take (leaving in a Pokemon on a Speed tie or using Hypnosis (hint: don't)). Jirachi might seem like a fair comparison, but once again, Iron Head Jirachi is avoidable by sending in a faster Pokemon (not uncommon at all) and Pokemon like Heatran and Rotom-W quad resist it, meaning they don't really care about flinches. In other words, it can be avoided. However, Sub Swagger Klefki can only be avoided by Xatu, Absol, and Espeon, none of which can actually take it on well outside of Xatu. Besides those three, every single Pokemon is affected by Swagger. And what are you going to do? Switch a Ground type into it? Klefki can Swagger on the switch and proceed to Sub until it gets a confusion hit (think SV Garchomp, but a much higher chance of working). I honestly see no real reason this strategy should be allowed since it is purely based on luck and there is close to nothing that the opponent can do to stop it outside of Thundurus'/Tornadus' Taunt and Magic Bounce users. Every other Pokemon is at risk. Note that I didn't even ONCE mention Foul Play. That brings Prankster Swagger to a whole other level...

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Jirachi, Speed ties, and missing Hypnosis are not the same as Klefki because the latter two are all risky that YOU choose to take (leaving in a Pokemon on a Speed tie or using Hypnosis (hint: don't)). Jirachi might seem like a fair comparison, but once again, Iron Head Jirachi is avoidable by sending in a faster Pokemon (not uncommon at all) and Pokemon like Heatran and Rotom-W quad resist it, meaning they don't really care about flinches. In other words, it can be avoided. However, Sub Swagger Klefki can only be avoided by Xatu, Absol, and Espeon, none of which can actually take it on well outside of Xatu. Besides those three, every single Pokemon is affected by Swagger. And what are you going to do? Switch a Ground type into it? Klefki can Swagger on the switch and proceed to Sub until it gets a confusion hit (think SV Garchomp, but a much higher chance of working). I honestly see no real reason this strategy should be allowed since it is purely based on luck and there is close to nothing that the opponent can do to stop it outside of Thundurus'/Tornadus' Taunt and Magic Bounce users. Every other Pokemon is at risk. Note that I didn't even ONCE mention Foul Play. That brings Prankster Swagger to a whole other level...

Ground types are a problem for the Swag Set. I had to change a Leftovers Thundurus to what I call a "stallbreaker Greninja" specifically to deal with Ground types throughout the duration of a match in order to deal with a rather resilient mixed Hippowdon. (That Greninja has leftovers, and its attacks are Scald, Ice Beam, Grass Knot and Taunt, at the fairly high opportunity cost of using Dark Pulse to get neutral hits on Rotom-W and the possibility of additional flinch hax, and some neutral 2HKOs and super effective OHKOs; Grass Knot is quite good for this specific context because the Grass type mitigates Earthquake damage and kills Quagsire)

In my match, my only recourse was to use Swagger on that Hippowdon understanding that I would give it a more powerful Earthquake, but in about three turns I did not get the self-inflicted hit. In retrospect, I felt that I lost the match from turn one, based on my opponent's team composition, specifically that Hippowdon and a cleric Sylveon, but continued anyway after I later blundered (a blatant blunder not a misprediction) because I thought the experience would benefit me as a battler. I was not at all surprised by that Hippowdon's power, and I knew what I was doing when I Swaggered it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-66020677

(I should have used Swagger on Sylveon not Thunder Wave when I knew it had Heal Beal. That was also a misjudgment since I was under pressure and not thinking clearly.)

Also, if I remember some preliminary damage calculations, a max defense Gliscor (and by extension uninvested attack) takes about 15% on a 2+ Foul Play and less on confusion. You are only using Swagger in that case to get some free turns out desperation. Gliscor is not at risk against this strategy due to its Poison Heal and Substitute, and even Taunt if it carries it.

I think in my about 20 matches, there were only about three times I got the combo with a sub and won with it (I think I am on a 20-3 run with this set, but facing opponents in the 1300-1800 range, but I do acknowledge that I few lucky because I did make a few misjudgments and I do not feel proud of my self at all). I do use Swagger as a means to get a free turn and get a little lucky while putting Klefki in a precarious position in order to get out of jam (like sending in a ground ball relief pitcher to induce a double play in a one out bases loaded jam; such decisions do not work out though as seen here as Seth Maness is a ground ball specialist but he gave up a 3 run home run against Jonny Gomes; Swagger Klefki is not a Mariano Rivera). I do think getting the entire set-up is a bonus, but I do like priority Swagger as a lower risk option against special attackers and priority paralysis.

---

SwagKeys is not broken! Cleric support (as clerics have naturally weak attack) and bulky ground types endanger it.

 

[Scorpiopt]

SwagKeys is not broken! Cleric support (as clerics have naturally weak attack) and bulky ground types endanger it.

ground types are only safe from t-wave dude , its broken and uncompetitive , that all swagger t-wave and foul play set is based on luck and that itself is definition of uncompetitive
Even clerics are susceptible to getting swagged and and hitting themselves or para-haxed giving a free turn to the oponent , the fact you had to resort to that strategy is only a failure on your part and not knowing how to deal with the opponents team

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

ground types are only safe from t-wave dude , its broken and uncompetitive , that all swagger t-wave and foul play set is based on luck and that itself is definition of uncompetitive
Even clerics are susceptible to getting swagged and and hitting themselves or para-haxed giving a free turn to the oponent , the fact you had to resort to that strategy is only a failure on your part

The game is permeated with luck, and prediction is also luck based (even though one still needs to possess an intuitive sense of the opponent's tendencies and a rational understanding of risk/reward profiles; a few times, I Ice Punched an incoming Gliscor on the switch with a Sheer Force/Iron Fist Conkeldurr, so I have some prediction skills too, even though I consider it to be relatively weak), but to be honest I prefer the RNG luck based hax of Klefki than to play prediction mind games; it is a legitimate play style based on player preference. For example, I have an Earthquake user and a Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W so I do not have to play mind games with King's Shield Aegislash (and not to rely on the 25% luck on paralysis). I don't use it primarily as a means of luck haxing, but to provide a somewhat reliable means of speed control against more offense teams, since it can circumvent Substitute sets (and this is another form of minimizing prediction). Espeon does not primarily upset me because I can't Swagger it; Espeon (and Jolteon) upsets me because I cannot control its speed and burning them with Rotom-W does not hamper their efficacy.

For additional context, I do not use Choice Items. It is just an expression of my playing style. And I feel like my participation of this thread is less of an apology (a defense) for using SwagKeys Klefki, but a defense of a particular playing style.

And no, I am a Latias, so I am not a dude! (I say this in a jocular tone. :))

 

[Scorpiopt]

Espeon is a liability on hyper offensive teams for example

t I prefer the RNG luck based hax of Klefki than to play prediction mind games

Sorry if you thats your reasoning i have no respect for that and for you what so ever , the fact that you prefer to rely on luck instead of skill shows that you have no what idea what competitive gaming is all about
sure pokemon has a lot of luck on its gameplay , but skill , predictions and mind games top that

 

[Halcyon.]

People often say that Pokemon is filled with luck anyway so lets keep Prankster Swagger and Double Team and such but there is a difference between those things and something like a Critical Hit or a miss: the latter are part of the gameplay, whereas the former are simply moves or strategies. Smogon cannot get rid of Critical Hits because then we wouldn't be playing Pokemon. However, we could ban Prankster Swagger if we deem it to be uncompetitive because that is only a move/ability combination found within the game. I don't think the two should be compared.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Espeon is a liability on hyper offensive teams for example



Sorry if you thats your reasoning i have no respect for that and for you what so ever , the fact that you prefer to rely on luck instead of skill shows that you have no what idea what competitive gaming is all about
sure pokemon has a lot of luck on its gameplay , but skill , predictions and mind games top that

That is your personal preference anyway and I have mine. For example, I do not enjoy the pressure facing stall teams, but I have to acknowledge that stall is a legitimate strategy. Get over it; SwagKeys Klefki is not a metagme dominant tactic.

Jirachi is the king of luck hax, but that can simply be countered by using a Steel resist with Leftovers. I believe Heatran, Skarmory, and Jellicent fit this bill in Gen 5; it is not analogous to using, say, Golurk to counter Terrakion.

---

By the way, exploiting probabilistic events over the long run is not "luck" (so there was a miswording in my last post), but a calculated risk, just like the house at a casino. But the "key" (bad pun intended) question for me as a SwagKeys player (in the particular context of my team composition and the metagame), is whether I am the house or the player betting against the house. If I realize that I am the sucker/fish playing multiple rounds of roulette in a casino, I will abandon the tactic. I could stand to lose a few games when luck does not go my way as long as I perceive to have the statistical advantage.

 

[EtherDrive]

I'm just not understanding how SwagPlay is more uncompetitive than ParaFlinch. It's more of a gamble than paraflinch, and, unlike paralysis, can be solved by simply switching out or using a Special attacker with -Atk to take eat up some hits if it comes to that

 

[RufflesPro]

Everybody is using Swagkey out there
While I'm just sitting here using Prankster Screens, hazards, and Foul Play.

I'm surprised at this guy honestly, I believe every set, sawgkey or not, should run Foul Play as it 2HKO-es both Aegislash, Trevenant, Gengar, Frosslass.

 

[Shroomisaur]

I'm just not understanding how SwagPlay is more uncompetitive than ParaFlinch. It's more of a gamble than paraflinch, and, unlike paralysis, can be solved by simply switching out or using a Special attacker with -Atk to take eat up some hits if it comes to that

Because paraflinch is easily defeated by using something faster, while Prankster is not. SwagPlay is uncompetitive in general, but then you add in Prankster and there's no counterplay. No matter how fast, you're reduced to flipping coins repeatedly until you die, or break through confusion repeatedly. All Swagkey needs is one turn of luck to get set up with a substitute and it's downhill from there. If you switch out, you simply take hazard damage and eat another Swagger for your troubles, there's no avoiding it.

I don't understand why anyone would ever defend Prankster Swagkey. It doesn't matter if it's "not reliable", "risky", or "has counters", Swagkey offers no value to competitive Pokemon whatsoever. OHKO moves have been banned for this reason. The same goes for Evasion moves. Shaymin-S was unanimously voted Ubers last gen primarily due to its Flinch abuse, and this strategy is even worse. By selecting Swagger a player has already decided even before battle begins, "Yep, I'm perfectly fine with 50/50ing against any opponent". The only reason this hasn't been an issue until now is as Kokoloko stated, there hasn't been a decent abuser until now.

Klefki has plenty of utility, in fact I personally like its Prankster Screens and Spikes set. I wouldn't want to see it banned outright for something like Swagkey. However, I would be perfectly happy with removing Prankster+Swagger.

 

[RufflesPro]

The real niche of Klefki which most people don't get, is that it can only be taunted by Fast Prankster users, Like Liepard, Whimscott, and Thundorus (not sure if he has Taunt tho), allowing him to get a guaranteed layer of spikes or at least screens if not faced by those, and unlike other screeners/pokemons with Hazards, it is not completely stopped with Taunt because of Foul Play, which need NO Attack investment and does a lot.

The meta game have always been dying for PRIORITY Screens and Spikes, and Gen VI gave us that pokemon, but no one is using it right :c

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't really think the Swagger set is broken or hard to stop at all (in fact, I thought the notion to ban it was a joke when I first read this thread, but I digress...); however, I hope we don't have to ban Klefki as a whole because of it. In other respects, I find Klefki to simply be a balanced Deoxys due to its lack of access to Taunt and Stealth Rock, and it can potentially be a valuable and interesting Poke in the metagame. Thus, I would support banning Prankster + Swagger, if necessary. NU made a similar ban to Prankster + Assist in order to preserve Leopard, so I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen in OU.

 

[Tressed]

I don't really think the Swagger set is broken or hard to stop at all (in fact, I thought the notion to ban it was a joke when I first read this thread, but I digress...); however, I hope we don't have to ban Klefki as a whole because of it. In other respects, I find Klefki to simply be a balanced Deoxys due to its lack of access to Taunt and Stealth Rock, and it can potentially be a valuable and interesting Poke in the metagame. Thus, I would support banning Prankster + Swagger, if necessary. NU made a similar ban to Prankster + Assist in order to preserve Leopard, so I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen in OU.

Banning Klefki by itself is ridiculous, its a great support Pokemon, but Swagger in and of itself is the definition of uncompetitive. I'd almost want to do a ban of confusion inducing moves in general, maybe with exceptions for moves that have a chance of confusing because of secondary effects, but using a move for the sole purpose of creating a fifty-fifty win chance in a game based on matchups, clever switching, and prediction is unsportsmanlike, cheap, and infuriating for your opponent who was looking forward for a challenging match, not a game of dice.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I would think that's the reasonable position, my dear BlackLight, but a couple of people on the previous page referred to the problem as "Klefki" and not "Prankster + Swagger", which made me a little bit concerned.

 

[Kevin Garnett]

Banning Klefki by itself is ridiculous, its a great support Pokemon, but Swagger in and of itself is the definition of uncompetitive. I'd almost want to do a ban of confusion inducing moves in general, maybe with exceptions for moves that have a chance of confusing because of secondary effects, but using a move for the sole purpose of creating a fifty-fifty win chance in a game based on matchups, clever switching, and prediction is unsportsmanlike, cheap, and infuriating for your opponent who was looking forward for a challenging match, not a game of dice.

If you don't want a game of dice then don't play pokemon lol the game is literally determined by a RNG deciding how much damage you do or if you miss/crit.

 

[farranpoison]

If you don't want a game of dice then don't play pokemon lol the game is literally determined by a RNG deciding how much damage you do or if you miss/crit.

The counterargument for this is the same for why the Evasion clause was enforced. Crits, RNG damage rolls, secondary move effect activations, these are all unavoidable RNG mechanics that are hard-coded into the game itself. Swagger + Prankster is something that you can avoid using, just like Evasion.

Now, i don't have strong feelings about Prankster + Swagger because I never use it myself, but I can see just how annoying it is. Since Swagpard sets were banned last gen, it does set somewhat of a precedent that may be used for Klefki.

 

[Kevin Garnett]

The counterargument for this is the same for why the Evasion clause was enforced. Crits, RNG damage rolls, secondary move effect activations, these are all unavoidable RNG mechanics that are hard-coded into the game itself. Swagger + Prankster is something that you can avoid using, just like Evasion.

Now, i don't have strong feelings about Prankster + Swagger because I never use it myself, but I can see just how annoying it is. Since Swagpard sets were banned last gen, it does set somewhat of a precedent that may be used for Klefki.

You can avoid evasion poop by banning double team though you can't ban all non 100% acc moves and make all moves do max damage lol. Confusion itself shouldnt be banned because then Machamp is literally useless and with that logic Outrage should be banned because of los coinflips.

 

[farranpoison]

You can avoid evasion poop by banning double team though you can't ban all non 100% acc moves and make all moves do max damage lol. Confusion itself shouldnt be banned because then Machamp is literally useless and with that logic Outrage should be banned because of los coinflips.

Who said Confusion should be banned? All people were talking about was the combination of Swagger + Prankster. Again, this was something banned on Liepard/Purrloin last gen, so there is a precedent.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Who said Confusion should be banned? All people were talking about was the combination of Swagger + Prankster. Again, this was something banned on Liepard/Purrloin last gen, so there is a precedent.

Actually Prankster+Swagger wasn't banned, it's in the official analysis as a matter of fact. The Prankster+Assist combo is what was banned.

Anyhow, as already stated, the reason Prankster+Swagger wasn't talked about much was because a light tap would spell the end for Liepard, but that's not at all the case with Klefki, with decent defenses and excellent typing defensively. The fact that Klefki can actually find success in OU with this horribly uncompetitive set speaks volumes about the difference between the two.

 

[farranpoison]

Actually Prankster+Swagger wasn't banned, it's in the official analysis as a matter of fact. The Prankster+Assist combo is what was banned.

Anyhow, as already stated, the reason Prankster+Swagger wasn't talked about much was because a light tap would spell the end for Liepard, but that's not at all the case with Klefki, with decent defenses and excellent typing defensively. The fact that Klefki can actually find success in OU with this horribly uncompetitive set speaks volumes about the difference between the two.

Well whoops. Now don't I look silly. This is what I get when I don't remember the facts...

Well, to be fair, one +2 Earthquake from a lot of OU mons could end Klefki. The problem is, that it's pretty much only Earthquake users...

 

[Kevin Garnett]

Who said Confusion should be banned? All people were talking about was the combination of Swagger + Prankster. Again, this was something banned on Liepard/Purrloin last gen, so there is a precedent.

Banning Klefki by itself is ridiculous, its a great support Pokemon, but Swagger in and of itself is the definition of uncompetitive. I'd almost want to do a ban of confusion inducing moves in general, maybe with exceptions for moves that have a chance of confusing because of secondary effects, but using a move for the sole purpose of creating a fifty-fifty win chance in a game based on matchups, clever switching, and prediction is unsportsmanlike, cheap, and infuriating for your opponent who was looking forward for a challenging match, not a game of dice.

this nigga did

 

[Tressed]

If you don't want a game of dice then don't play pokemon lol the game is literally determined by a RNG deciding how much damage you do or if you miss/crit.

Hardly. Damage variations and crits may be a pain in the ass, but their chances to screw you over are tiny compared to confusion. I'm accepting of 8.5% chance to take 150% damage, because the chance is small enough that it doesn't take place too often (although there is something funky about WHEN it kicks in). I'm not okay with 50% chance to whiff your attack because of somebody wanting to spam Prankster Swagger, because a fifty percent chance to hurt yourself AND miss your turn is utter bullshit. Crits and parahax do squat compared to this.

Anyways, this whole Swagkey stuff is derailing this thread, so I'm not going to be talking about hax any longer. May ask a mod if we can have a talk about confusion and such, but this isn't the place for it.

this nigga did

Get your racist slurs out of here. I don't give a damn who you are or how you talk at home or with your friends, but this is not a place for racism. >:(