If we went by that logic, Lucario wouldn't even be up for ban discussion and Clefable would be the suspect... Based on what I've seen of course...
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
- Status
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
3 great choices for the first suspect test of XY, I'm glad to see it!
1. Lucarionite - The sheer power of Adaptability-boosted Close Combats allows MegaLuke to crush most of the tier. It has amazing offensive stats and a great speed tier to boot. It's capable of boosting on either side of the spectrum and there are very few Pokemon that can counter it, and they're often very difficult to use (Volc/Moltres) and/or easily worn down (Megasaur, Aegis, etc). It doesn't help that Mega Luke has plenty of powerful priority as well to pick off would-be revenge killers. However, its coverage moves are quite weak and its frailty makes it difficult to set up. There are a decent number of checks, but it's so blasted powerful that it often just smashes its way through. Broken.
2. Genesect - There might be a few more Pokemon that can check it decently this gen, but it's just so blasted versatile. Everyone seems to be in love with Scarf, but it can run at least half a dozen effective sets (CS, CB, EB, LO mixed attacker, shift gear, etc) and you'll struggle to pin down its set as it U-Turns in and out throughout the match. Amazing coverage, free boosts to its already impressive offenses, great priority in Extremespeed. It's probably the best Pokemon in OU and in my opinion it simply doesn't belong. Broken.
3. Deoxys-S - Not broken at all in my book. It's a great Pokemon in either a support or revenge killer role, but its very hampered by a couple of changes in XY. First of all, priority flying everywhere has made its life much more difficult regardless of its role. Second, the boost in popularity of Dark- and Ghost- attacks and Pokemon in general is another big worry for Deo-S. Finally as most people note, Defog's buff and Excadrill's return to OU really hurt the usefulness of its hazards.
1. Lucarionite - The sheer power of Adaptability-boosted Close Combats allows MegaLuke to crush most of the tier. It has amazing offensive stats and a great speed tier to boot. It's capable of boosting on either side of the spectrum and there are very few Pokemon that can counter it, and they're often very difficult to use (Volc/Moltres) and/or easily worn down (Megasaur, Aegis, etc). It doesn't help that Mega Luke has plenty of powerful priority as well to pick off would-be revenge killers. However, its coverage moves are quite weak and its frailty makes it difficult to set up. There are a decent number of checks, but it's so blasted powerful that it often just smashes its way through. Broken.
2. Genesect - There might be a few more Pokemon that can check it decently this gen, but it's just so blasted versatile. Everyone seems to be in love with Scarf, but it can run at least half a dozen effective sets (CS, CB, EB, LO mixed attacker, shift gear, etc) and you'll struggle to pin down its set as it U-Turns in and out throughout the match. Amazing coverage, free boosts to its already impressive offenses, great priority in Extremespeed. It's probably the best Pokemon in OU and in my opinion it simply doesn't belong. Broken.
3. Deoxys-S - Not broken at all in my book. It's a great Pokemon in either a support or revenge killer role, but its very hampered by a couple of changes in XY. First of all, priority flying everywhere has made its life much more difficult regardless of its role. Second, the boost in popularity of Dark- and Ghost- attacks and Pokemon in general is another big worry for Deo-S. Finally as most people note, Defog's buff and Excadrill's return to OU really hurt the usefulness of its hazards.
Sry to double post but it wouldn't let me combine and two people attacked my post. Anyways, You are a counter if u can take a hit at plus 2 and ko!!!! That means u can switch in and win. And don't give bullshitu about pd volc being a bad set, it is a great set, it sets up on so much shit. So basically all of your calcs just proved that my counters are counters. And I never said that tenta is a great counter, just a check guaranteed to either get a scald off on -1 defenses, or multiple against the np set. Ik that hp ground sect is a thing but heatran is still generally a counter, and If u use hp ground u lose to other shit. I never said it's hard to mega evolve it (although it's not that ez) it's hard to set up an sd or a nasty plot on anything that isn't a fucking chansey or a mandibuzz pretty much
It really doesn't. On the contrary, counting on doing anything that turn while it 3HKOs you means, you can't count on the counter working.
Remember Sand Veil Garchomp? You could use some bulky thing with Ice Beam to beat out SubSD-Chomp, but you had to count on that 20% chance of throwing away your winning chance not befalling you. Dark Pulse flinchax is something like that, and makes even Zapdos, for instance, only 80% counters. That is huge.
Regardless, +2 Neutral MLuke is doing 85%+ to Aegislash which is by no means a small amount of damage. Aegislash then has to pack Sacred Sword or SBall + Sneak to KO.
None of the things that you mentions can take a hit at +2 and KO.
And the fact that something has counters doesn't make it not broken. Everything has counters (well barring Mega Gengar, but that's a whole different can of worms). Sableye countered Mega Kangaskhan. Azumarill and Talonflame pretty much shut down Blaziken. Mega Lucario isn't that hard to set up either. While its bulk isn't phenomenal, it's honestly good enough to get by, especially with its amazing typing. It's also incredibly effective at forcing switches against important Pokemon on the opposing team that would die if they stayed in. Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, weakened Rotom-W (CC does 63-75%, Aura Sphere 57-67%), Excadrill, Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, etc. can all get demolished if they stay in against Mega Lucario, which means that the opponent has to choose if they want to try to attack in order to prevent Mega Lucario from setting up or risk losing their Pokemon.
It's the fact that Mega Lucario can simultaneously shut down offensive and defensive teams with little to no effort thanks to its combination of amazing power, Speed, and coverage that makes it suspect worthy and, in my opinion, broken.
And the fact that something has counters doesn't make it not broken. Everything has counters (well barring Mega Gengar, but that's a whole different can of worms). Sableye countered Mega Kangaskhan. Azumarill and Talonflame pretty much shut down Blaziken. Mega Lucario isn't that hard to set up either. While its bulk isn't phenomenal, it's honestly good enough to get by, especially with its amazing typing. It's also incredibly effective at forcing switches against important Pokemon on the opposing team that would die if they stayed in. Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, weakened Rotom-W (CC does 63-75%, Aura Sphere 57-67%), Excadrill, Mandibuzz, Mamoswine, etc. can all get demolished if they stay in against Mega Lucario, which means that the opponent has to choose if they want to try to attack in order to prevent Mega Lucario from setting up or risk losing their Pokemon.
It's the fact that Mega Lucario can simultaneously shut down offensive and defensive teams with little to no effort thanks to its combination of amazing power, Speed, and coverage that makes it suspect worthy and, in my opinion, broken.
Most of them could ko. Azumarill can with superpwr or play rough + aqua jet! both fires do, aegis does! zapdos can with heat wave after a cc. Regardless, don't act like the opponent had "no choice" but to switch. Prediction goes both ways, and u better have balls of steel to set up on a mamo swine or a heatran. So mega lucario can force 5050s with many mons, while another mega for example, who I consider more broken, mega pinsir, can set up on a ridiculous amount of physical attackers, such as av conk or mega scizor. Lucario can basically only set up ezily on blobs (fears twave), mandibuZ if it's np, but not if it's sd, ferrothorn (not nearly as good these days), and bisharp to an extent (this was from a quick scrolllthrough so excuse me if I missed any). Also, agree that not having counters doesn't mean something isn't broken (not that talonflame was a blaze counter) but I just wanted to let people know that it has counters cuz everyone always sez it doesn't. However, I believe that when you combine this with the amount of checks (most scarfers) and it's frailty, it's not broken. I am realistic about this, Ik it's gonna get banned, but this is just my two cents :p
Let's be honest here, has Mega-Lucario ever been THAT much of a problem for you? It's a glass cannon, and is easily outsped by anything with a scarf. Let's use Darmanitan as an example. Lucario only has Vaccum Wave, Extreme Speed, and Bullet punch for priority.
Let's run some calcs.
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 600-708 (213.5 - 251.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 77-91 (21.9 - 25.9%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO
252- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 134-158 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 458-540 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I get that these aren't boosted, and that Darmanitan is only a check because it can't switch in safely against something like a Close Combat, but it is something. I can't think of a counter right off the top of my head, because I've never really had to think about a counter for him, because he's never been that big of a threat to my team.
Pokemon like Landorus can easily check the physical variant. Gyarados too, you don't need to mega evolve. Quagsire, depending on what kind of bulk you run, can be a good option too. And the only thing that people run on Lucario that can touch Charizard is Extreme Speed.
Now as for Genesect, he isn't a problem either. A fire move from ANYTHING can take it down. I get that it has mediocre defenses and can survive neutral hits easily, but c'mon now.
Deoxys-S.... I have nothing to say. Why? I don't even know. Not even that common to be that much of a threat. It can taunt, and set-up easily. But it doesn't have much offensive potential. Move it up to OU if you must, but there is no reason for it to go up to Ubers...
I am starting to notice a pattern here. I know this is being suspected for now, but Smogon, whenever it bans something, bans the next most powerful pokemon because it's "too good" for the metagame. Lucario may have the most offensive potential ATM, but he is by no means "too good". Or broken for that matter.
P.S: Smogon, PLEASE OH PLEASE tell us the reason why you think said pokemon should be suspected. It would be much, MUCH easier for us to have a discussion.
Let's run some calcs.
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 600-708 (213.5 - 251.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 77-91 (21.9 - 25.9%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO
252- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 134-158 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 458-540 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I get that these aren't boosted, and that Darmanitan is only a check because it can't switch in safely against something like a Close Combat, but it is something. I can't think of a counter right off the top of my head, because I've never really had to think about a counter for him, because he's never been that big of a threat to my team.
Pokemon like Landorus can easily check the physical variant. Gyarados too, you don't need to mega evolve. Quagsire, depending on what kind of bulk you run, can be a good option too. And the only thing that people run on Lucario that can touch Charizard is Extreme Speed.
Now as for Genesect, he isn't a problem either. A fire move from ANYTHING can take it down. I get that it has mediocre defenses and can survive neutral hits easily, but c'mon now.
Deoxys-S.... I have nothing to say. Why? I don't even know. Not even that common to be that much of a threat. It can taunt, and set-up easily. But it doesn't have much offensive potential. Move it up to OU if you must, but there is no reason for it to go up to Ubers...
I am starting to notice a pattern here. I know this is being suspected for now, but Smogon, whenever it bans something, bans the next most powerful pokemon because it's "too good" for the metagame. Lucario may have the most offensive potential ATM, but he is by no means "too good". Or broken for that matter.
P.S: Smogon, PLEASE OH PLEASE tell us the reason why you think said pokemon should be suspected. It would be much, MUCH easier for us to have a discussion.
Last edited:
I know this. I didn't think it was that relevant a point, as per what Treecko said.
i think deo-s is fine in OU. its mostly a hazard setter, which is far from making it uber. a lead ferrothorn with gyroball knocks its socks off. i think it should be lucario/genesect/deoxys in that order if anything
Being honest, no. But that's partially because I've been doing a lot of fighting in the lower ranks against a lot of bad players, and on every team I have, I have a specific reaction to Lucario, Genesect, Mega Venusaur, and all the other S ranked pokemon that I've rehearsed and know exactly how to pull it off. I shouldn't have to do that.
Also, I prefer these calcs
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and if I know its not running a scarf
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 458-540 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lucario may be a pretty mediocre defensive poke, but its typing means it can often set up, and if it does, there's not much it can't theoretically cripple or KO in just 1 turn. If he is banned, that will be a huge reason why.
The thing that sets lucario over the edge is really his unpredictability and x4 resist to SR, you have no idea what to send in until it's too late in most cases. Charizard is the same issue but can be reliably handled with proper SR control.
I really hope to see Genesect on the way out. Partly because I see it on every other team I face and I'm sick of his face, but also because he is, bar none, the best scarfer in OU by a mile.
Now, granted, SOMETHING has to be the best scarfer, but there's really nothing even in the same ballpark as this thing. It hits hard and fast on both the physical and special side, and especially late game he has unbelievable cleanup potential. Combine that with a fantastic movepool, an amazing ability, and a ton of viable sets, and this is simply one of the most dangerous things in OU at the moment.
Now, granted, SOMETHING has to be the best scarfer, but there's really nothing even in the same ballpark as this thing. It hits hard and fast on both the physical and special side, and especially late game he has unbelievable cleanup potential. Combine that with a fantastic movepool, an amazing ability, and a ton of viable sets, and this is simply one of the most dangerous things in OU at the moment.
Practically every common Choice Scarf user can revenge kill Lucario, but that doesn't keep it from killing something whenever it gets a switch in. If you bring in your Darmanitan after something dies, it's pretty obvious that it's going to be Scarf, and the Lucario user can just switch out. Quagsire also is far from a counter to Mega Lucario because it's 2HKOed by ~unboosted~ Aura Sphere and Close Combat.
Also, if you have no idea why something is being suspected, then you need to stop posting in this thread and lurk more until you figure it out.
Also, if you have no idea why something is being suspected, then you need to stop posting in this thread and lurk more until you figure it out.
Last edited:
just because it's revenged by a few scarfers doesn't make something not broken. you can revenge kill darkrai with scarf genesect, rayquaza with scarf garchomp, arceus with scarf terrakion, etc. if you want to not ban lucario because there are scarfers/general pkmn that can revenge kill it you may as well unban the entire uber tier because that can be said for literally anything in the game.
deoxys-s is a cunt because it has taunt to shut down defog, and no one uses spinners anymore except mb exca. with sash it can easily set up 2 layers and then a properly constructed team will have tons of offensive momentum to force the opponent not to defog. even if they do, a switch to defiant bisharp / thundrus can immediately swing the momentum back in the deoxys user's favor. you need to have something like aegi, conk, sash gene to prevent it from getting two layers, and even then, a timely double switch can let 1 hp deo get up the 2nd layer.
Or HP Ground for that matter (which I have seen occasionally). Or if you're using Dugtrio like the good old days, Heatran can't switch in...
SpD Heatran can take it pretty well and just OHKO with fire move of it's choice.
Another reason that lucarionite should be banned is also the mindgames it forces the opponent to play when viewing the opposing team. For example: If your opponent has in their team a Gyarados, Ttar and Luke (all three have a viable non-mega formes) you have no absolutely no idea which Mega evo the opponent will be using, but 9/10 times you will assume it is M-lucario due to it being superior than MGyara and MTtar. However if you plan your match thinking it will be Mega Lucario and it turns out to one of the other two Megas, you are pretty much screwed as each of them have to played against im different manners.
Therefore, in addition to all arguments mentioned above, the mere presence of a possible Lucarionite attached to Lucario opens the way for other Strong Mega evolutions to be used, as people will almost always assume Mega lucario will be used (this situation is of course considering pokemon who have viable non mega formes in OU), disconsidering the threat of other Mega pokemon.
Therefore, in addition to all arguments mentioned above, the mere presence of a possible Lucarionite attached to Lucario opens the way for other Strong Mega evolutions to be used, as people will almost always assume Mega lucario will be used (this situation is of course considering pokemon who have viable non mega formes in OU), disconsidering the threat of other Mega pokemon.
There was something like 80% mega usage on the ladder in December, and its higher the further up the ladder you go. Basically the fact is that megas are pretty good, and its always going to be a good mindgame to carry multiple offensive potential megas.
Not sure how that ends up being an argument against Lucarionite in particular, as you'll still have this potential problem with other megas.
I think that's a pretty bad argument to be honest. Just because the threat of something is real doesn't make it more bannable. Those are 3 good Pokemon, and when you see all 3 you should account for all possibilities. You don't enter a battle putting all your eggs into a basket. Predictability (or lack of) isn't a sin. You need to assess all the possible outcomes as logically as possible. If you find yourself blindsided by something you didn't see coming whose fault is that really? I'll gladly concede to being wrong, but whose fault is that?
The ban of MGengar was made in basis similar to the one you state of "the threat of something real". Just the face Gengar on the opposing team would completely change the way your game is played, especially for stall players. The fact that a pokemon is so strong that even if there Is the POSSIBILITY of the given pokemon being his mega forme or not, just shows how overpowered he is to the given metagame. Lucarionite plays the same way: you will be threatened by Lucario on the opposing team because of the potential lucarionite. MGengar 'brokeness' came due to the potential of it being or not holding Gengarite, thus based on mind games. This happens also with Lucario due to the predominance of his mega forme in relations to other Pokemon, thus opening space for potential mind games with your opponent as he is still a threat in his normal forme, albeit to a much lesser extent. My argument should not be viewed as he central reason for why Lucarionite should be banned, but as a complement to the central argument- that his unexpectedness on the offensive makes it dificult for teams to deal with it-.
The ban of MGar was more of what it could do. Shadow Tag with those offense stats were well enough for it to be banned, coupled with Perish Song and Destiny Bond? Haha, yeah right. Mega Lucario's surprise factor is whether it's a special set or physical set, not if it's holding a Mega Stone or not.
Yes, the unexpectedness of his offensive sets is a major argument, that is why I mentioned it in my previous post. What I am trying to say, and this from previous experience even in higher parts of the ladder, that using a Lucario (with no Lucarionite) as a sort of 'decoy' for another Mega due to the almost consistent assumption of your opponent that the Lucario is the Mega Pokemon, can open roads for other Megas to come in and rip holes on an unaware opponent. But thinking back, my argument is not solid enough,I feel, because it is not restricted only to Lucario but to other non suspect Megas. But Lucario can still take advantage of these mind games.
- Status