Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[Aladyyn]

While I don't believe this would be a reason to not ban Gligar, I'm speculating that Meditite will shit on the metagame the instant Gligar leaves.
No Gligar = No Ice Punch = Hooray perfect coverage

Let me just quote Cherub Agent from the NU suspect thread: "I'm of the opinion that if a broken Pokemon is keeping other broken Pokemon in check, then those Pokemon simply need to be looked at as well."
If Tits become a problem, we can simply take another look at it. I'd prefer trying to achieve a balanced metagame over not banning stuff that needs to be banned.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

This thread exploded while I was at practice, so I haven't really had time to read through everything.

However, I still feel like I should put my two cents in, even if I reiterate some points made by others.

Is Swirlix broken?
Yes.
I've seen other people's posts that show the shear inability to fully prepare for Swirlix, and I wholeheartedly agree with them. Most of the time, My team doesn't have a problem with Swirlix as I run LO Meditite and A Chlorophyll Bulbasaur (it's a sun team). Nevertheless, there are instances where Swirlix has completely wrecked me due to variety of its sets. I specifically recall thinking I had a game won when a BD Swirlix set up on me and I still had Meditite alive. That was my first time seeing BD+Protect. At that point my Bulbasaur was dead so the game was essentially over. My team has no problems dealing with most BD or CM Swirlix, which is very fortunate, but the Cotton Guard variant is what drives it over the edge. I honestly feel that if the sadistic Cotton Candy Mon somehow did not get Cotton Guard, then Swirlix would be much more balanced. It's this addition to its move pool that makes it nigh impossible to outright counter.
I'm slightly busy at the moment. Swirlix has been discussed in great detail already so I feel there isn't much need for me to elaborate further.

Is Gligar broken?
At first, I was of the opinion that Gligar was not broken, just highly over-centralizing (which is still ban worthy). However, Corkscrew 's set a few pages back swayed me to the opinion that Gligar is utterly broken. The combination of the coveted 19 Speed, outrageous attack, and stellar defense coupled with Swords Dance, amazing STABS, and the ability to neuter would-be counters with Knock Off or simply setting up a Substitute. Looking at that set, I was reminded of how I watched a particular user who I know to be a good battler get swept even though Gligar was the only good thing on their team (the team had stuff like Porygon @ Metronome and Gyro ball Venipede with Speed Boost. Just awful.). This shows just how absurd Gligar is. That set swept a good player in the hands of a complete noob. That one set. Now think about all of the other things Gligar can do. Need Stealth Rock and Defog? Go for Gligar. Need a fast U-turn or a defensive behemoth? Gligar's got you on outstretched skin-flaps. Others have gone into great detail about the versatility of Gligar, so I won't go further. Gligar not only has one completely broken set, it has an almost infinite number of other sets it can run. It limits team building not in the way Swirlix does by demanding numerous checks and counters, but because many other very good mons simply don't get used because Gligar does it slightly better. Gligar is obscenely powerful, wickedly fast, absurdly bulky, and as broken as Miley Cyrus on a wrecking ball.

 

[dcae]

I've noticed that some pro banners are really attacking the opinion of the non ban people, which is lame af and unnecessary.

As some may know I have revised my position on Gligar thanks to certain well-made arguments. My reason for banning Gligar is not that it is broken, because it is definitely not, but more so the fact that it is amazing at 80% of roles in LC, and unlike Misdreavus, these are roles that EVERY team needs. Due to its skill at all roles, it is thus always a filler that will benefit you. It has single handedly caused other SR and hazard clearers to be much worse. All this is coupled with its strong SD sets. Obviously, all these factors don't necessarily make it broken; the issue at hand that is pushing it over the edge is the way it is stifling the growth of the tier. Unlike Yanma and Tangela, the oversaturation of Gligar due to its general goodness has resulted in a less fun metagame. Despite not being broken in the sense of Tangela or Swirlix, Gligar's presence is not beneficial to the development of a diverse metagame, leading me to propose a ban on this.

Let's keep the anecdotal fallacies and ad hominem toned way down :)

 

[tcr]

I've noticed people saying in argument for Gligar that you can simply lure it in, and I would just like to say that to be an effective lure, you want to eliminate as much guessing as possible, i.e. no prediciton. An example is something like Garchomp with HP Ice, or something random like that (bad example, but its all I could think of to illustrate my point on the spot). Risk v Reward prompts you to hit EQ, or Dragon Claw, etc. If the opponent switches in Landorus-t, great. Next turn you OUTSPEED and hit with HP Ice. An effective lure doesnt rely on prediction to overcome something. I figured I would just point that out, as any good player has multiple switchins to something like HP Ice Mienfoo (or ust mienfoo period), meaning that lest they get outguessed, they'll switch between Spritzee and Gligar like someone's previous example was. Thus, your lure has been revealed.

Also another type of lure is something that can take a hit, or is normally set up on by something. A recent example is a battle between me and Al_Alchemist where he had Lileep, and I had Gligar. Turn 1 of that matchup, he Giga Drained, and I switched out thinking, "oh, hes probably a random HP Ice set" and I even commented on it. Next time the two were matched up, I tried to set up, and got slammed with HP Ice. Lileep lives anything gligar throws at it making it an effective lure. Just shoving HP Ice on something doesnt make an effective lure, meaning Gligar still wins 80+% of the time.

I've noticed that some pro banners are really attacking the opinion of the non ban people, which is lame af and unnecessary.

As some may know I have revised my position on Gligar thanks to certain well-made arguments. My reason for banning Gligar is not that it is broken, because it is definitely not, but more so the fact that it is amazing at 80% of roles in LC, and unlike Misdreavus, these are roles that EVERY team needs. Due to its skill at all roles, it is thus always a filler that will benefit you. It has single handedly caused other SR and hazard clearers to be much worse. All this is coupled with its strong SD sets. Obviously, all these factors don't necessarily make it broken; the issue at hand that is pushing it over the edge is the way it is stifling the growth of the tier. Unlike Yanma and Tangela, the oversaturation of Gligar due to its general goodness has resulted in a less fun metagame. Despite not being broken in the sense of Tangela or Swirlix, Gligar's presence is not beneficial to the development of a diverse metagame, leading me to propose a ban on this.

Let's keep the anecdotal fallacies and ad hominem toned way down :)

The main issues I have with this is that yes, Gligar does its job well. However, it doesnt stifle the usage of others, so far that Gligar outclasses everything. The way I see it, people start forming the same teams, and that team structure happens to include Gligar. SR set? Yeah Gligar can run it, but it loses the user's team a great deal of momentum, not to mention things like Archen, or Dwebble, or Ferroseed, or Tirtouga can set up rocks just as well, while supporting the team in different ways. You can run SD Acro as well, which is a good sweeping set, but it isnt outclassed by other sweepers. Things like Pawniard, Scraggy, Carvahna, etc can still run very effective sweeping sets, while offering different synergy. You can run a Defog set, but again, Vullaby, or the rare Archen can do the same job, and I would argue in Vullaby's case, better. I do not believe Gligar is the new Tangela, where in every role it outclasses something (as a grass type bulky wall, it beat out Foongus, as a Chloro sweeper, it beat out so much, fuck, as a wallbreaker it beat out Murkrow). There are many good Gligar sets, but other pokemon have the option to run them as well, while providing different, not less, support. Ferroseed is a great answer to BD Swirlix on most teams, it can Thunder Wave everything, it can stop a lot of Fake Out or Bullet Punch or w/e. Archen beats most gligar, has awesome Flying STAB still, and can pivot in and out of different things. Pawniard is an excellent SD sweeper, who relies on Priority and whatnot to beat things, as well as presuring the opponent with devastating Knock Offs. Scraggy DDs up and starts wrecking face as usual. Dwebble can set up rocks or spikes or w/e the fuck you want, and can even provide a greater offensive prescence with its SS+SR set. Same with Tirt, or you can use it as a bulky water type. As a wall, Gligar is arguably outclassed by Slowpoke, and Foongus, the infamous Regen core, as the other two can support the team with Thunder Wave, or Scald hax, or Spore. Gligar can....Roost? U-turn out? My point is, saying Gligar can do 80% of jobs better than everything else simply isnt true, when there are multiple viable pokemon in each position that can be used instead, and this false idea is promoted by a lack of creative team structure (essentially its turned into regencore+gligar+meditite+2 filler) and isnt truly the case.

I am still Anti-Ban for those that care.

 

[Artemisa]

It's ability to sweep is more scary imo.

SD / Acrobatics / Earthquake is already good coverage in that 4th move Gligar can run BP / Knock off / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Sub /. Each of these help is as well overcome or make it easier to beat it's checks or support another teammate. Pairing it with BJ Gligar can tank almost anything that isn't x4 effective (Ice moves). I've remember using Archen back to counter Gligar which is good since it resist both of it's stabs, but even then if it has Aqua Tail, I'm fucked. My #1 counter to Archen just got fucked and now has a good chance of sweeping my team. Knock off can help it by taking walls eviolite so Acrobatics and Earthquake hit even harder than they already do. It's pretty overwhelming and because of it's natural bulk it can live a couple of hits from walls since most don't hit hard unless they are super effective.

I personally think Gligar is broken.

 

[atomicllamas]

I know this has already sort of been addressed, but I would like to comment on Ssin's argument that gligar is not broken due to 4mss. While true gligar does have 4mss, it is not becaue gligar is not broken, it is due to the fact Gligar is so good it has the option to use so many different moves. Gligar really only needs 4 moves to sweep a team (sub / sd / eq / acro). Or 4 moves to support its team (roost / defog / eq / knock off). It also has a myriad of other options, not because it isn't broken, but because you can customize gligar to do whatever you need it to do.

 

[chimp]

I've noticed people saying in argument for Gligar that you can simply lure it in, and I would just like to say that to be an effective lure, you want to eliminate as much guessing as possible, i.e. no prediciton. An example is something like Garchomp with HP Ice, or something random like that (bad example, but its all I could think of to illustrate my point on the spot). Risk v Reward prompts you to hit EQ, or Dragon Claw, etc. If the opponent switches in Landorus-t, great. Next turn you OUTSPEED and hit with HP Ice. An effective lure doesnt rely on prediction to overcome something. I figured I would just point that out, as any good player has multiple switchins to something like HP Ice Mienfoo (or ust mienfoo period), meaning that lest they get outguessed, they'll switch between Spritzee and Gligar like someone's previous example was. Thus, your lure has been revealed.

Also another type of lure is something that can take a hit, or is normally set up on by something. A recent example is a battle between me and Al_Alchemist where he had Lileep, and I had Gligar. Turn 1 of that matchup, he Giga Drained, and I switched out thinking, "oh, hes probably a random HP Ice set" and I even commented on it. Next time the two were matched up, I tried to set up, and got slammed with HP Ice. Lileep lives anything gligar throws at it making it an effective lure. Just shoving HP Ice on something doesnt make an effective lure, meaning Gligar still wins 80+% of the time.

The main issues I have with this is that yes, Gligar does its job well. However, it doesnt stifle the usage of others, so far that Gligar outclasses everything. The way I see it, people start forming the same teams, and that team structure happens to include Gligar. SR set? Yeah Gligar can run it, but it loses the user's team a great deal of momentum, not to mention things like Archen, or Dwebble, or Ferroseed, or Tirtouga can set up rocks just as well, while supporting the team in different ways. You can run SD Acro as well, which is a good sweeping set, but it isnt outclassed by other sweepers. Things like Pawniard, Scraggy, Carvahna, etc can still run very effective sweeping sets, while offering different synergy. You can run a Defog set, but again, Vullaby, or the rare Archen can do the same job, and I would argue in Vullaby's case, better. I do not believe Gligar is the new Tangela, where in every role it outclasses something (as a grass type bulky wall, it beat out Foongus, as a Chloro sweeper, it beat out so much, fuck, as a wallbreaker it beat out Murkrow). There are many good Gligar sets, but other pokemon have the option to run them as well, while providing different, not less, support. Ferroseed is a great answer to BD Swirlix on most teams, it can Thunder Wave everything, it can stop a lot of Fake Out or Bullet Punch or w/e. Archen beats most gligar, has awesome Flying STAB still, and can pivot in and out of different things. Pawniard is an excellent SD sweeper, who relies on Priority and whatnot to beat things, as well as presuring the opponent with devastating Knock Offs. Scraggy DDs up and starts wrecking face as usual. Dwebble can set up rocks or spikes or w/e the fuck you want, and can even provide a greater offensive prescence with its SS+SR set. Same with Tirt, or you can use it as a bulky water type. As a wall, Gligar is arguably outclassed by Slowpoke, and Foongus, the infamous Regen core, as the other two can support the team with Thunder Wave, or Scald hax, or Spore. Gligar can....Roost? U-turn out? My point is, saying Gligar can do 80% of jobs better than everything else simply isnt true, when there are multiple viable pokemon in each position that can be used instead, and this false idea is promoted by a lack of creative team structure (essentially its turned into regencore+gligar+meditite+2 filler) and isnt truly the case.

I am still Anti-Ban for those that care.

I don't want to sound rude or like I'm attacking you, but I don't really understand your overall point here. Its not that gligar is the best at everything (even though it is really close) its that it can run these sets. Nearly every team will use gligar just because it can do anything it needs them to. Already have a sweeper? Use Gligar to set up rocks. Already have someone to set up rocks? Use Gligar to sweep. Need a baton passer or someone to build momentum or to abuse knock off or to defog hazards? Use gligar. Use that adorable little scorpionfly(?) until the miltanks come home.

Gligar gets just as much utility as the other pokemon you mentioned. Dwebble may be able to lay down SR and spikes, but Gligar has 19 speed, reliable recovery, u-turn (meaning it doesn't lose momentum), defog, and knock off. Dwebble may have a greater offensive presence with SS, but Acrobatics + Earthquake gets great coverage, and Gligar doesn't even care if it loses its item, because Acrobatics becomes a scary Base 110 move. Just as Ferroseed can wall BD Swirlix, Gligar can wall most physical attackers easy, so its not like its struggling to compete with Slowpoke or Ferroseed or Foongus. Those three do not outclass gligar, because Gligar is faster, stronger, has reliable recovery, has knock off, stealth rock, defog, u-turn, baton pass....

So, to reiterate, Gligar may not be the best at the numerous amount of sets it can run, but the sheer fact that it CAN run them, to very high levels of success, means that it will almost always be put on a team no matter what.

Again, I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you, and I don't think gligar is /broken/ in the same sense as Tangela or Sneasel were, but it may be a little unhealthy for the meta to keep this thing in.

 

[ryan]

Anyway, I'd like to argue with Treecko a bit, since he is the most anti-ban Swirlix advocate and he could have potential to sway my opinion.
Is there any specific ways that you teambuild differently to prepare for Swirlix? It's such a hard Pokemon to counter that you can run 2 dedicated counters and still be fucked over. For example I can run a Tentacool + Ferroseed defensive core who actually have really good synergy with each other, and Ferroseed can counter the Belly Drum set and Tentacool can fuck with any Cotton Guard variants. However, what happens when I come across a Calm Mind/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt set. I'll lose despite having 2 Swirlix counters, meaning I have to run 3 Pokemon on my team to beat it. In my opinion that is a bit ridiculous. Also, to even beat the Belly Drum set, I'm forced to keep my Ferroseed healthy throughout the match. As I stated in my original post, this means it can't be used to counter Tirtouga (+2 EQ and a +6 Play Rough can take Ferroseed out). It's all well and good saying keeping offensive pressure can prevent it setting up, but every team (even offensive teams) will have at least 1 Pokemon (usually 2-3) that Swirlix can use as set up bait. Even Berry Juice Gligar can be used as bait, as it survives Acro at full health, heal up and set up from there, and we all know how common that is.

Priority is all well and good but even that isn't strong enough, so you'll need at least a couple of priority users. Expulso illustrates above that you'll need 2 Pokemon to die to stop a 50% Swirlix with Fake Out. Carvanha only does over 50% 1/16th of the time with Life Orb Aqua Jet, so again you're losing 2 Pokemon including Carvanha. Bunnelby and Corphish will need a Life Orb or Choice Band to do more than 50% to Swirlix. Swirlix resists Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, so that's not much help. So with all this in mind, every team should be dedicating at least 2, or more ways to deal with Swirlix and even then, with the right moveset Swirlix and possibly a small bit of support, Swirlix can get round them.

Sorry there are like 900 posts in this thread, so I'm probably not going to respond to everyone who tagged me even though I know my stance is more controversial than most. So I'm going to reply to this and wing it. :)

Most of what I've said so far has been based on using Swirlix and less on facing it, so keep in mind that this is just my personal experiences with where my team struggled the most. The opponent having Meditite was almost always an auto-not-sweeping-with-Swirlix because even though it might come in throughout the battle, the opponent will never be dumb enough to leave in their Meditite to die while I had Swirlix on my team.

Also keep in mind that I'm a bit scatter-brained at the moment, so my post will probably reflect that.

When my opponent had their own Swirlix, my best bet was to keep my Timburr from being vulnerable to being set up on and then to start wailing away at it the second it came it. I had Corphish, which does a pretty huge chunk to it with Aqua Jet (which does 45-54% with Eviolite btw, even with Impish nature which is what I used), and Spritzee, which has a huge chance of surviving +6 Play Rough from full (94% if Jolly, 32% otherwise). I also had two other priority users (Timburr and Pawniard) which could get chip damage off to finish it off from a low amount of HP. And I had Scarf Misdreavus, which Speed ties (!!!) with Adamant Swirlix. Obviously I had to play pretty carefully around it, but I was only swept by one of the like four or five Belly Drum Swirlix I faced.

You aren't really forced to keep Ferroseed healthy at all because +6 Play Rough does like 50% max to it.

Sub BJ Gligar can beat it pretty easily. Sub if it tries to set up on you, and then do 72-86% with Acro, leaving it easily revenged. If they turn out to be CM, you can set up on it. If they turn out to be BD, they are at +6 but you're behind a Sub and can again easily revenge it.

I don't know, in the end, I recognize that Swirlix is a huge threat in the metagame, but I'm just not quite convinced that it's broken just yet. This is why I don't want to ban it; I'd like to give it more time in the metagame to see if it really is broken or if the metagame can adapt better to it without Gligar there to overprepare for. Maybe next time we have a suspect, my mind will change, and I'll decide that I do find it to be broken. But right now, I'm not quite convinced. Either way, I figure it'll probably get banned, and I won't get that opportunity. Who knows?

Also Foongus is a pretty solid answer. If you're concerned about Cotton Guard/Calm Mind sets, it can Clear Smog them.

idk, again, scatter-brained. I'll try to look at this again when I'm not.

 

[chimp]

Sorry there are like 900 posts in this thread, so I'm probably not going to respond to everyone who tagged me even though I know my stance is more controversial than most. So I'm going to reply to this and wing it. :)

Most of what I've said so far has been based on using Swirlix and less on facing it, so keep in mind that this is just my personal experiences with where my team struggled the most. The opponent having Meditite was almost always an auto-not-sweeping-with-Swirlix because even though it might come in throughout the battle, the opponent will never be dumb enough to leave in their Meditite to die while I had Swirlix on my team.

Also keep in mind that I'm a bit scatter-brained at the moment, so my post will probably reflect that.

When my opponent had their own Swirlix, my best bet was to keep my Timburr from being vulnerable to being set up on and then to start wailing away at it the second it came it. I had Corphish, which does a pretty huge chunk to it with Aqua Jet (which does 45-54% with Eviolite btw, even with Impish nature which is what I used), and Spritzee, which has a huge chance of surviving +6 Play Rough from full (94% if Jolly, 32% otherwise). I also had two other priority users (Timburr and Pawniard) which could get chip damage off to finish it off from a low amount of HP. And I had Scarf Misdreavus, which Speed ties (!!!) with Adamant Swirlix. Obviously I had to play pretty carefully around it, but I was only swept by one of the like four or five Belly Drum Swirlix I faced.

You aren't really forced to keep Ferroseed healthy at all because +6 Play Rough does like 50% max to it.

Sub BJ Gligar can beat it pretty easily. Sub if it tries to set up on you, and then do 72-86% with Acro, leaving it easily revenged. If they turn out to be CM, you can set up on it. If they turn out to be BD, they are at +6 but you're behind a Sub and can again easily revenge it.

I don't know, in the end, I recognize that Swirlix is a huge threat in the metagame, but I'm just not quite convinced that it's broken just yet. This is why I don't want to ban it; I'd like to give it more time in the metagame to see if it really is broken or if the metagame can adapt better to it without Gligar there to overprepare for. Maybe next time we have a suspect, my mind will change, and I'll decide that I do find it to be broken. But right now, I'm not quite convinced. Either way, I figure it'll probably get banned, and I won't get that opportunity. Who knows?

Also Foongus is a pretty solid answer. If you're concerned about Cotton Guard/Calm Mind sets, it can Clear Smog them.

idk, again, scatter-brained. I'll try to look at this again when I'm not.

I understand your points and I agree that swirlix, once it sets up, can be walled by other pokemon. But thats not why I want to see it banned. You can bring a ferroseed to keep yourself from getting destroyed by BD, but then what do you have if Swirlix goes CM? You can bring Meditite, but what if it goes Cotton Guard?
I really don't want to see every team consisting of Ferroseed + Meditite + Foongus just to prevent Swirlix from destroying them with its 10 trillion different possible sets.

 

[Artemisa]

But isn't that a little bit too much?

Corphish / Spritzee / Pawniard / Timburr / Missy / Ferro?

By the way you describe it it makes it seem you are losing like two pokemon trying to kill one and attempting to win a speed tie with a scarf mon.

By the way you only explained how you handle BD .How would you do vs CM + BG Swirlix with the team you mentioned. It looks like your only reliable answer is attempting to 1hko it with iron head from a Pawniard. If pawniard dies it can just wall and gain back hp due to Draining Kiss, and kill Ferroseed with flamethrower. You have to take into account all the possible options Swirlix can run, but it's too much for a team, unless you made one dedicated to stop Swirlix.

 

[Wobbyble]

Treecko, from what I can tell your teams still pretty Swirlix weak. If you Sub with Gligar on Swirlix, and it turns out to be CG, then you're pretty much fucked if Missy is unavailable to Tricking. You're relying mostly on Ferroseed to deal with Belly Drum and almost entirely on Spritzee's SpA drops for CM/CG if you can't Trick Scarf onto Swirlix. Getting swept by 1/5 of the BD Swirlixs you've faced is a large amount considering you have prepared so much for it. But yeah I'll admit, I'd have to plan super far ahead to sweep your team with Swirlix.

Also Foongus with Clear Smog doesn't fair so well against BD, and Clear Smog doesn't prevent you from getting 2HKO'd by Flamethrower.

 

[fatty]

ok i'm a little late to the party here, fashionably late i'd say, but i'll still try and state my opinions without rehashing everybody elses points too much. honestly, to me both swirlix and gligar are in the same boat here. they both have a base uber powerful sweeping set (sub sd for glig, and bd for swirlix) that each have their particular checks and 'counters' (and i use the term counters very very loosely), while having access to a myriad of other set and even move options that can completely turn the tables on those switched in checks. in my opinion, the power wielded by both of those respective base sets combined with the unpredictability of those other options completely throws both gligar and swirlix over the edge, and should justly be banned.

gligar

i've used gligar pretty extensively, and obviously i've played against it a lot. i think everybody can say the same looking at the usage statistics. with that said, i really don't know how this isn't unanimously a ban at this point lol. it must be because not everyone has tryed the sub sd set because i can legitimately say that that piece of shit is the easiest thing to sweep with ever. you come in on something you force out, or even stuff you don't that can't afford to let you set up, and just sub up. sub kinda just gives a free way to get into bj / acro range, but makes glig a lot harder to play around or try and predict against i guess. from there, if they switched out, just sd up and wreck shit, and if not, get to acro range, kill something, and save glig to sweep later :) it's so brainless and stupid that i got annoyed just using it. it's so easy to just slap on a team and go to work that really you don't need any other strategy or a need for any other team lol. aaaand then you can talk about sd bp or knock off sd, which just adds to the madness by luring in glig checks and just setting something else up to sweep later while still providing a lethal offensive force.

swirlix

again, bd is obviously powerful as fuck. cm swirl can also be really deadly when played well. cotton guard is surprisingly really effective. although i feel that bd is grounds enough to ban it, a lot of people don't, and that's when you have to start looking at all those sets together. as heysup has stated throughout his posts, the sheer choice you have to make on whether to switch your cm check in or your bd check (or even cotton guard) is gamebreaking. they don't share nearly the same counters, and the fact that bd can even run flamethrower to roast ferro and magnemite just makes the guessing game way too uncompetitive right now. not to mention the fact that stuff like koffing, shieldon, etc. which have been brought up as legitimate options to handle swirlix are actually not that legit due to swirlix's great coverage options and the fact that they actually both (all) suck during most instances lol.

 

[Redew]

Honestly, I was anti-ban Gligar, but after mulling it over for a few days, I think I'm going to vote to ban my favorite LC Pokemon.

Gligar is not broken. I'm exactly with dcae in the fact that it's definitely deterring creativity, because I've never had a glaring Gligar problem. All of my teams have Gligar on them, and it wasn't hard to fit him on because I could. Anything is able to sweep after one or two Swords Dances, so those reasonings really don't have any value, and Pawniard is in the same boat as Gligar in the fact that they get a STAB-boosted, mid-damage move. For Pawniard gets Knock Off, which deals 146.25 Base Power against anything that's holding an item, and in Little Cup, everything has an item. After that, it's a 97.5 attack iirc. With Gligar, starting off, it is 82.5, and if something brought it down to BJ range fast (because there are a lot of strong, fast Pokemon in LC, namely Scarf Murkrow with Icy Wind, Misdreavus (if you want to bank on a speed tie), Carvanha with its Speed Boost ability and priority Aqua Jet, and other Pokemon as well), it can do it again. This is besides the point, though. The fact that it can run multiple coverage moves, like Artemisa has already said, makes it more of a threat than anything else, and also allows it to run supportive sets better than some of the other Pokemon. This definitely deters creativity in LC, and is not something that the tier needs. In a tier that is very diverse, Gligar is not needed.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Unfortunately, due to work and some other things, I wasn't able to post in this thread with as much detail as I wanted, and now that I'm able to, everything I wanted to say has already been said. However, I'm absolutely fine with that because I'm super happy with how much contribution is being shown here, and I literally just sat here and read everything, like over 110 posts. Wow.

The first thing I want to say is that the posts about other Pokemon such as Meditite becoming broken and unhealthy for the tier as a potential result of these two suspects being banned is not relevant to this thread and should be disregarded (I swear I have to say this in every suspect thread).

To be short, Corkscrew hit just about every point I was going to in the same manner I was going to present it. I believe both Swirlix and Gligar should be banned from XY Little Cup.

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Swirlix is absolutely broken, cut-and-dry, no question. The three sets it can run allow it to increase its stats at an insane rate in a small amount of time, while also restoring it to full health. The Belly Drum set literally achieves +6 Attack, doubled Speed, and full health restoration all in one turn, which cannot be called not broken. Each set has things that are able to beat it depending on the moves it carries, true, but these "checks" are very specific and can fail if Swirlix happens to have the right move; and by the time you figure out your check has failed due to this, it's too late to formulate anything else and you lose. Tentacool can reliably deal with the Cotton Guard set, providing Swirlix's fourth move is Flamethrower, but apart from that, the specifics really matter and you will be swept hard if you don't have exactly what you need, which you won't find out until Swirlix gets to move.

Gligar is not so blatantly broken in the sense that Swirlix is. The only set Gligar has that is broken to me is the Swords Dance + Berry Juice Acrobatics set. That's not to say that Gligar isn't the most highly used Pokemon in the tier though, as it is additionally literally the best hazard control mon in the tier, and has many unpredictable options to catch opponents off guard, including Taunt, U-turn, Baton Pass, etc. The sheer power, utility, and overall centralization this Pokemon causes by being able to fulfill so many different roles is what makes Gligar unhealthy for the tier. There is no reason for a team not to run it, and it is honestly very good. Choice Scarf + HP Ice being passed off as an example of how easily Gligar can be taken down is total bullshit, and I hope I don't have to stoop down and explain why. Gligar is not always broken, depending on how it is used, but it is definitely unhealthy for Little Cup and is very centralizing and difficult to deal with.


2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

Swirlix absolutely ruins the game. It is completely and utterly impossible to stop (outside a few specific and some OBSCURE exceptions) if it gets one free turn, which isn't too hard to get... unless you run some off-the-wall Haze Murkrow set that will get you killed in the process anyway, or unless you have the exact thing on your team that directly deals with the exact set Swirlix is running (e.g. you have LO Meditite and the opposing Swirlix does NOT have Protect or Cotton Guard). It would be more tolerable if Swirlix wasn't able to become so powerful in such a short amount of time, but as it is, it's near intolerable. A total noob can beat the most elite player with it; all the noob has to do is bring Swirlix in after its teammate is knocked out by a Fighting-type not named Croagunk or +1 Scraggy with Iron Head. It's ridiculous.

As far as Gligar goes, you can't Thunder Wave it to slow it down, every viable Sleep status user in the tier dies hard to STAB Acrobatics, and you can't Will-O-Wisp it unless you are lucky enough to win the Speed tie with Misdreavus. It has 19 Speed with insane physical defense, access to Taunt, and Roost, so it is highly difficult to get around even for creative players, and it just doesn't die. Seeing Gligar on every single team, being as difficult to play around as it is, and having SO many battle outcomes decided by simple Speed ties absolutely makes Little Cup not fun. If there were viable Water-types in the tier that resisted Ground/Flying, or if Ice had more resists and was a more viable typing to use for its STAB (outside of the obvious Protean Froakie), maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but that's not the case. Gligar is not 100% broken, but I feel that the sheer centralization around it while being as hard to deal with as it is makes it banworthy.


3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

You literally have to bring Fake Out Meditite, Calm Liquid Ooze Tentacool, AND either some bulky Fairy resist like Bold Koffing or Impish Honedge (while keeping it in good health) or Sturdy Magnemite (with reliable hazard control) to have any assurance of getting past Swirlix no matter what set it runs, and EVEN THEN, you lose if you can't keep the right check(s) in good health before they bring their Swirlix out. It's not hard for a player to lure in an opportunity to get Swirlix in against a Fighting-type for free when all they have to do is put Munchlax or Tirtouga in your face long enough and make you kill them. As mentioned previously, there IS Haze Murkrow and Unaware mons like Wooper, but let's be honest, how much dead weight are you adding to your team there? Murkrow gets nailed hard by Swirlix's STAB without boosts anyway. I'm quite sure the general consensus is: Fuck Swirlix, it's way too complicated to prepare for and is very cheap, annoying, and uncompetitive in general, causing almost mindless battling. There is too much reward gained in one turn with not anywhere near enough risk or drawback to make it even close to fair, and people are sick of it, myself included.

Gligar is incredibly annoying and I mean that in the most objective way possible. Any reasons for why Gligar is deemed overcentralizing stems from the fact that there is honestly no reason not to run Gligar, when every single kind of playstyle or team benefits from its addition. Its selfishly high usage is justified because of this (you can't say it's not), which only further pollutes the metagame with a Pokemon that is hard to take down while also being too unpredictable to really plan for. Is Gligar really good? Yes. Is Gligar decisively broken? No. But the limitations Gligar's prominence places upon skill, teambuilding, and strategy makes it a very bad thing to have on every team no matter how viable it is, not to mention the amount of Speed ties that literally decide games, making skill and competitiveness obsolete in many cases, which is enough to piss any player off when it keeps happening.

 

[Ashley11]

I understand your points and I agree that swirlix, once it sets up, can be walled by other pokemon. But thats not why I want to see it banned. You can bring a ferroseed to keep yourself from getting destroyed by BD, but then what do you have if Swirlix goes CM? You can bring Meditite, but what if it goes Cotton Guard?
I really don't want to see every team consisting of Ferroseed + Meditite + Foongus just to prevent Swirlix from destroying them with its 10 trillion different possible sets.

Lol calm mind/flamethrower/dazzling gleam/protect beats all of those. :>

So does calm mind/cotton guard/draining kiss/flamethrower

And I really feel as if you are missing the point treecko. We aren't saying swirlix is broken thanks to one set or anything. We are saying that there are so many sets swirlix can run with so many different counters that it's brokenness comes from having no way to deal with EVERY swirlix set, which can in the long run destroy you.

I've noticed that some pro banners are really attacking the opinion of the non ban people, which is lame af and unnecessary

Lol it's called a discussion page, where you try to sway people to your opinion. No one is trying to "attack" people, they are sharing their opinion with people who don't agree with them because this is a very important topic for little cup. No one is going to sit back and say "You think Swirlix is not broken because some of your facts aren't true. Well, thats just fine! n_n" they will try to present their opinion for the other player to maybe understand and change their opinion to.

 

[youngjake93]

Ok, like some others have done already, I have decided to change my opinion to pro-ban Gligar too.
I now believe Gligar should probably leave the tier.
I still believe Swirlix is the obviously ridiculously broken Pokemon in this test and that the meta will probably be a little ugly after a Gligar ban, but the meta will be able to evolve and be improved with subsequent tests if we get rid of the Pokemon that is basically on every single team and has no reason to not be.
Also, the 19-speed-tie centric quality of the meta as pointed out is annoying and dissuades skillful plays over flipping a coin. Any chance at lessening this would be a welcome side-effect.

 

[Marisson]

1) Is Swirlix broken? 2) Is Swirlix making Little Cup not fun?

Yes, Swirlix is broken, I don't think it is necessary to discuss that but let's do it.

Belly Drum
The bd set can be at +6 attack, +2 speed and full health in one turn.
Checks : by Fake Out+Bullet punch Meditite, HazeKrow (but it dies), Encore Cotonee (if it's going to boost itself), and SturdyJuice Magnemite, and SturdyJuice pokemons.
Counters : None.
The closest thing to a counter : Foongus
76 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swirlix: 20-26 (90.9 - 118.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+6 212+ Atk Swirlix Return vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
44 SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 124 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Foongus is probably the closest thing to a counter. It isn't KOed by any moves at +6 and can KO with sludge bomb.
Larvesta can work too but it is OHKOed by +6 return 50% of the time but flame body can burn. It can also OHKO with flare blitz, but not every time it tries.

Calm Mind
Probably the most weakened swirlix's set.
The checks are the same as the above set (but magnemite cannot OHKO at +2).
Liquid Ooze tentacool counters relatively good (swirlix needs a +3 SpA boost to OHKO this things with thunderbolt).

Cotton Guard + Calm Mind
Probably the best set, or at least the most difficult to KO.

Conclusion
Swirlix can run a lot of sets with various moves. It's unpredictable, hard to revenge kill, hard to kill, it doesn't have real counter. It's Broken and so making little cup not fun.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Yes because it limits team building.

Swirlix should be banned.

In my opinion, Gligar is not broken. It doesn't make Little Cup fun, but it doesn't make Little Cup Not Fun. It's a huge threat, but every tier gets huge threat.

Gligar should not be banned.

 

[Darkdiglett]

The thing is, both Swirlix and Gligar are broken and banworthy with Berry Juice, it's hard to judge if the would still be broken without it, but they certainly would be more manageable. It's the fact that both these pokemon can be at 100% HP with boosts in multiple stats and in Gligars case firing, off 110 BP Acrobatics which pushes them over the line for me. But since it isn't berry juice up for suspect, I won't mention it further.

Is Swirlix broken? Undoubtedly. Swirlix is unpredictable in which of it's 3 main sets it will be running. Since you are unable to know which of the sets it is running, if you guess wrong it could be too late.

The Belly Drum set is probably the most destructive, as it can potentially be at +6 attack while being on full hp, from there not much can stop it and it will most likely sweep, even if it is on 50% after the drum. It can be revenged by the likes of Magnemite /other sturdy mons (only if there are no hazards which is a very unreliable way to check a major threat) Fake out mons with other priority, now I know some of these mons aren't viable in the meta atm, but you need to actually adapt to certain threats, these mons can revenge swirlix after a drum: Buneary / Machop / Makuhita / Meditite / Riolu / Croagunk. However if you need to kill a mon in order to revenge it, it seems pretty broken.

The Calm Mind set is harder to kill, as boosting doesn't put it at 50% HP, but it is less destructive after 1 turn of boosting. So all the mons mentioned above will be unable to revenge kill it, except for Meditite which remains a check. Mantyke (without tbolt) / Munchlax / Lickitung are all checks to this set, the difference in setting up between this and the drum set, is you actually have time to react when facing a cm set, however the calm mind sets counters/checks all get destroyed by the belly drum set, which is why you cant predict wrong when it comes to what set it is running

The Cotton Guard + Calm Mind set if this set is able to set up, good luck. Being able to boost to +3 defence in one turn means that it can't be revenged by pokes that can kill the other sets, meditite etc. The thing about this set, is it is able to set up on almost anything, including the checks and counters to other sets. Making it ridiculously strong, once it has set up, it's only really beaten by Wooper and haze Murkrow, but murkrow will die in the process. The fact it can heal with both berry juice and Draining kiss mean it can stay in for a long time.

Swirlix overall is broken. Nothing can beat all 3 of its sets and if you guess the wrong set then it could be game, as all the checks and counters are beaten by other potential sets, with 28 speed it outspeeds most scarfers and the fact you need to lose 2-3 mons just to revenge it makes it broken and banworthy.




Is Gligar Broken? Yes, but not as much a Swirlix, I think Gligar is more over centralising than broken, you can literally slap it on any team and it will do a good job, which is what everyone is doing, because it does everything very well, be it a SD sweeper, Offensive Hazard set, Defensive hazard set, Defogger etc. Its SD set is very problematic when paired with its 19 speed, high defence and the fact it already has great STAB coverage with 110 bp acrobatics and EQ meaning it can run Sub/Knock off/Aqua tail/Baton pass/Stone Edge as its 4th move. Also, the number of games that have come down to whose Gligar wins the speed tie and sweeps their opponent is plain stupid. Gligar is extremely strong in both its offensive and defensive sets and it requires 0 thought to use, since it outspeeds and kills almost every non scarfed mon.

Are Swirlix and Gligar making LC not fun? Definitely! The fact you need to dedicate 3+ mons to keep these 2 powerhouse mons in check really restricts teambuilding, resulting in a very stale, repetitive and boring to play meta.

Might make a better post about Gligar, I forgot I had started typing this out and found it again at 3am, too tired to write a lot about Gligar.

 

[Ashley11]

In my opinion, Gligar is not broken. It doesn't make Little Cup fun, but it doesn't make Little Cup Not Fun. It's a huge threat, but every tier gets huge threat.

Gligar should not be banned.

Why exactly do you think gligar should not be banned? That doesn't exactly explain much.

 

[HeDancesWithSwords]

I have to say, before I write anymore, that there isn't much I have to say that hasn't already been said.
However, what I can do is offer my opinion on the three questions that were posed.
(I am only commenting on Swirlix for now)
1. Is Swirlix Broken?
Yes, as it carries a variety of dangerous sets that can easily take out an unprepared team, after as little as 1 turn of set up.
It can easily outspeed most Scarfers after an Unburden boost, and Can use one of three powerful boosting moves to transform itself into a very irksome thing to play against.

2. Is Swirlix making LC not fun?
This is entirely my personal opinion, but there are really two sides to this.
One side is that it is very fun to use a Swirlix, and to decimate teams that are otherwise well crafted, and to go from losing 6-1, to sweeping their entire team. This is undeniably an enjoyable thing to do, and a very cheap way of winning ladder matches.
However, it is very much not fun to play against, as it can, as stated above, easily decimate well made teams with any one of its sets, and therefore I can personally agree that it has massively limited my teambuilding. When facing it in a ladder match, I immediately feel a sense of dread, as I know that there are three different sets that all require different counters, and so it is very unlikely that I can beat it without losing some mons first.
So in my opinion, Swirlix is making LC not fun

3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing LC?
Well, I can certainly say it has deterred me from going anywhere near the ladder, and I believe it makes LC a much less easy place to get into, as if during your first match you are 6-0'd by a BD Swirlix, I would certainly say that this would do either one of two things.
1. Stop playing and find a more balanced meta
or 2. Create a team with a counter to BD swirlix.
Assuming that I went for 2, I might then encounter a Cotton Guard or Calm Mind Swirlix, and proceed to be completely destroyed, which would certainly discpurage me from playing LC until that demonic fluffball is taken care of.

Overall, I am pro-ban
Thanks

 

[Professor Birch]

It seems that this is where most people stand atm:
1. Swirlix IS broken because it is unpredictable and has a great variety of what it can run.
2. Gligar IS NOT really broken per se. It is more that Gligar is way to good at what it does and is completely over centralizing LC.

I agree with most people here. When I made my first post I had agreed that Gligar was broken for a lack of a better explanation. As more people said it, I have realized that I am now on the same side as I was on Swirlix but I am agreeing that Gligar is not broken, just too good at what it does. Both of these pokemon are low risk-high reward pokemon.

 

[HeDancesWithSwords]

To add to my first statement, there is also nothing bad that I can think of that would come from banning swirlix, other than the fact that the few mons that people were forced to run just to beat it may become less popular, although all of the good ones (Foongus, Grimer, etc...) will still have spots in the meta. Also, the removal of swirlix will not cause any other mons to become overpowered, as there is nothing that swirlix is specifically relied on to beat, or that people do not use due to the fact swirlix exists. (eg if Swirlix was removed all of the things that it beats would not suddenly gain popularity, because it pretty much beats everything)

Swirlix could very easily just disappear from LC without significant consequences to the rest of LC, and while this isn't really an argument for/against it being banned, it does mean that the council could have a much lighter conscience after doing so, knowing that the rest of LC will be relatively untouched .

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Kingserperior while Swirlix is not relied on to beat any particular mons (bc it pretty much can beat the entire tier given the proper setup), it does rely on being able to set up efficiently. Therefore, the mons it sets up on such as Mienfoo, Timburr, Lileep, and countless others could rise in usage if Swirlix is banned.

 

[HeDancesWithSwords]

Nebuchadnezzar
My point was, that there aren't any mons that swirlix renders unusable.
Unless I am mistaken, people do not really exclude meinfoo/timburr/countless others from their team just because swirlix exists, and can set up on them.
What you don't seem to realize, is how many countless other mons there are, as according to what you said, everything that couldn't OHKO swirlix to prevent a set up will suddenly rise in popularity, which will probably not be the case. Also while they may have an increase in usage, it isn't likely that any of them will become op, as just because there is a pokemon that can set up on them does not mean that they aren't viable.
Sorry if I repeated myself a bit

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

You are correct in saying that Swirlix does not necessarily exclude them from being included in the team building process. However, Swirlix does cause the user of Mienfoo, for example, to be played much more cautiously throughout. If I am running Mienfoo and my opponent has Swirlix, I will make sure that I don't KO one of their pokemon with Mienfoo unless I use U-turn. This subsequently could exclude pokemon such as Mienfoo from being included in the team building process because you need to make sure that Swirlix can set up on as few of your pokemon as possible.

This is one reason why Swirlix is so broken. It causes you to analyze almost every member of your team to make sure you can keep the cotton candy under control.