Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[Rowan]

Interesting concept Antar , I'd like to enquire as to your EV spreads on these Pokemon. The standard 124/156+ Foongus EV spread has an 81.3% chance to be OHKOed by +6 Return after Stealth Rock, whilst a fully invested Foongus has a 31.3% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock. A 236/196+ Honedge, takes tonnes of damage from a +6 Thief. I'm guessing you aren't running such defensive EVs though, since you're probably running more speed to take advantage of your Sticky Web, and you're probably investing quite a bit in Attack as well. At most I reckon you're running 76/36 which has a 100% chance to be OHKOed by +6 Thief. A +1 Swirlix (taking Web into account) still outspeeds both and hits 21 Speed, enough to sweep with. So yeah, you cannot counter all Swirlix sets, and you come up against the wrong one (BD+Thief) and you lose. This is the sort of thing I've been talking about in my original post.

 

[tcr]

Saying you never really have a problem with swirlix doesn't seem like a good argument. Not only are you using honedge, who isnt all that great to begin with, you said yourself you came out with the lowest gxe of everyone. Essentially it means that your team was terribly made (im assuming you are a good player with a decent knowledge of the meta, which leaves te team used as the reason). Yes, you may have dealt with swirlix fine. That still doesnt help because as corkscrew said, foongus is OHKOed most of the time, it requires double switching, as well as forcing out the usage of...I wont say bad, but not decent, pokemon.

 

[T-Bolt]

I guess I'll just throw in my two cents on the gligar discussion.

To me, Gligar doesn't really seem like a 'broken' Pokemon. It's a great sweeper, and has a wide range of sets it can run, but most LC teams are prepared for Gligar, running multiple checks and counters. Rather than discussing why Gligar isn't broken though, I'd like to point out the positive aspects of Gligar.

Firstly, it's a great knock off absorber. Thanks to it's huge defense, it doesn't really mind taking the damage, and actually benefits from a max power acrobatics. Gligar is a great check/counter to the multiple fighting types in the tier, thanks to it's flying typing and since most Pokemon don't like switching into fighting types fearing a knock off. Gligar is one of the best defoggers in the tier, and a great momentum grabber with U-turn too. It's invaluable in baton pass chains, second to only Torchic IMO.

By banning Gligar, we'll be removing a check to knock off spam, making fighting types less manageable, turning stealth rock weak Pokemon less viable, and the other things I mentioned. Clearly, banning Gligar will have a considerable effect on the metagame, and I'm not sure if it will be for the better or worse.

 

[Antar]

Interesting concept Antar , I'd like to enquire as to your EV spreads on these Pokemon.

Longclaw (Honedge) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 40 Def / 140 SDef / 132 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Claw

Minimus (Foongus) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 124 HP / 156 Def / 76 SAtk / 76 SDef / 76 Spd
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

The standard 124/156+ Foongus EV spread has an 81.3% chance to be OHKOed by +6 Return after Stealth Rock, whilst a fully invested Foongus has a 31.3% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock.

Keep in mind I have a spinner, and it's rare that my opponents have been able to get Rocks up in the first place.

Re: Hodegde vs. BD Swirlix -- yes, "Longclaw" *always* dies to a +6 Thief, at which point it's Foogus or Bust and I've lost my Honedge. But, interestingly enough, not every BD Swirlix carries Thief, in which case Honedge completely walls it.

My point was not that either of these Pokemon completely walls every Swirlix set (though IIRC I've had "Minimus" survive a +1 Flamethower) but rather that the combination of both does. You can argue (and not wrongly) that this makes Swirlix too deadly a menace, but I'm also not convinced that a few more weeks of playtesting won't reveal additional ways of dealing with it, as Treecko suggested:

Swirlix is a Pokemon that I think we could benefit from giving a little more time in the metagame. The more time we have with Swirlix, the more time we get to check out its full potential and learn all the best ways of checking and countering it. Unlike Gligar, which hasn't changed at all since the beginning of XY, we started out the generation only ever seeing Calm Mind Swirlix. Then people started to use Belly Drum, and we adjusted and learned the best ways of beating it. Then people started using Calm Mind/Cotton Guard, and people are still learning the best ways to handle that set. In the end, I'm not so convinced that Swirlix is as obviously broken as people have made it out to be when I've seen so little effort being made to adjust around it. I used to feel the same way as many people do about Swirlix, but over time, I managed to adapt around it. I just don't believe that I'm the only one who can manage that. Again, to answer the questions in the OP: maybe, no, maybe. I'd like more time with it in the metagame to get more solid answers to those questions. Perhaps I'll end up being convinced that it's broken, but I think this is a case where we're better off learning from it than we are banishing it right away.

 

[Professor Birch]

Ok so I am somewhat changing my ideas. In the first place, I was kind of on the fence of Gligar leaning more towards banning him and now I am slowly changing over. The issue is not that it is broken but it is that it is too good at what it does. Not only this but it is over-centralizing LC too much and is something that must be prepared for or is either on the team itself. To me, this is when something should be suspected but could go either way and personally, that is how I feel. I think that it should be suspected thoroughly due to the fact that it has centralized LC and is taking out some of the fun in playing and building unique teams. I can see myself changing my opinion to having Gligar suspected at a later time but the issue I see there is if Swirlix, an immensely strong pokemon goes, then Gligar would probably see even more usage than it already does. At that point, it will just be an unhealthy meta and would end up in the state that OU is pretty much always in. Gligar will be on almost every team and every team will need to run at least 2 pokemon to try to counter it just in case the other dies.

 

[Rowan]

[snip]
Re: Hodegde vs. BD Swirlix -- yes, "Longclaw" *always* dies to a +6 Thief, at which point it's Foogus or Bust and I've lost my Honedge. But, interestingly enough, not every BD Swirlix carries Thief, in which case Honedge completely walls it.

My point was not that either of these Pokemon completely walls every Swirlix set (though IIRC I've had "Minimus" survive a +1 Flamethower) but rather that the combination of both does. [snip]

I am aware that not every Belly Drum Swirlix carries Thief and this is precisely my point. No matter how hard you check it, sure you can beat some sets, but you will no doubt just come across something that does beat what you have. Also, I didn't even bother taking Knock Off into the equation, in which case Foongus is screwed anyway. Now it can't switch into those Fighting-types that it walls so well, because then it will take a Knock Off and get beaten by Swirlix later. As i stated on my original post, even though you can beat Swirlix, you are forced to play so conservatively. You can't risk switching in your Foongus too much, incase you can't regenerate back to full-health in time or lose it's eviolite.

 

[Goldland]

Guys wasn't this supposed to be a 'discussion' thread? All i see is people throwing premade texts that aren't rly open for discussion.

Dis thread:
BAN SWIRLIX, YESH? HE OVERPOWA MY SWIRLIX, NOT FAIR!
BAN GLIGAR YESH? WHY? COZ I RUN A TEAM FULL OF S-RANK WITH NO REAL SYNERGY OR ABUSE OF REGEN CORE TO HEAL LIEK A BAWS AND NEITHER OF THEM HANDLES GIGAR, INCLUDING MY GIGAR

Now seriously, let's talk about swirlix and gligar.
I'll start on Gligar, since i find him being a suspect highly controversial, and actually oppose it.

Gligar:
A considered rank-s lc tier pokemon, it's undoubtly resourceful and strong in almost any function you might assign him, but he's actually overestimated, it's a good threat, but only if you restrict yourself to viability rankings, and making teams of either strong pokemons with little synergy or having full healing teams that can't really hurt gligar, that unfortunelly make up like 90% of the teams.
But guess what, if you make what most would consider using uncommon play styles, like using scarfed sweepers in combination with bulky sweepers and a wall, you will find that Gligar is actually easy to handle, to check and counter without really having to address him directly. That you guys have a team/playstyle, that is weak to gligar, and have problems addressing him, that's your problem, not gligar's.

There are 2 main common sets that i see used:

Eviolite gligar: A good wall but will sacrifice attack for it. Requires swords dance to KO non bulky things, and bulky sweepers are a major problem for him since you probably can knock him or damage highly along with a priority attack, wrecks him before havng chance to KO back your pokemon. Yeah, what i' m saying here is that any bulky high damage dealer that can 2hko him, prevents any build up potential for gligar, without even needing to be supereffective one.
Berryjuice gligar: Usually a better damage dealer with acrobatics, but needs a sword dance or 2 to deal with bulky pokemons. Doesn't have anywhere the same defensive capabilities, and after berry juice has been spent, his switching in capabilities become much more limited. Limited coverage since EQ and Roost are almost must have and if you have acro, you don't have knock off to hurt things like slowpoke or almost any evio wall.

I really don't get people saying gligar is unpredictable. There's just those 2 really threatning sets, and you can easily deduce which one with a fake out or any form of damage. He has limited coverage and no priority, which makes him weak to scarfed too.
Also he isn't ovecentralizing the tier as people state. Ppl are actually overcentraizing in the rank-S chars and some other teams like regen cores, which Gligar happens to be a good teammate for checking and thrashing the very same team. Being overused because people centralize their game in those aspects, doesn'tmake him overpowered, just because it counters your playstyle.

As sort of example i recently made a gen 1 team for fun that is actually quite strong against meta-teams, without adressing gligar in particular i have no problems handling him:


Cubone @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Def / 36 SDef / 196 Atk / 4 Spd / 36 HP
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Counter
- Knock Off

Grimer @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SDef / 80 HP
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak

Eevee @ Eviolite
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 76 SDef / 236 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Wish
- Quick Attack
- Protect

Krabby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Spd / 36 Def / 236 Atk / 36 HP
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide

Dratini @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 172 Atk / 196 Spd / 76 Def / 36 SDef / 28 HP
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Thunder Wave

Machop @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Spd / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 HP and
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch


Cubone- my physical wall, having 30 def, adresses any physical sweeper, being an easy check for gligar. First turn just knock him if he SD,and 1 counter or 2 double edge kill gligar. There's real little chance for gligar to kill cubone with enough prediction.
Grimer- my swirlix counter. 1hkos gligar while surviving a eq. My grimer will probably do little more on the game, but that's pokemanz, you cant expect to kill a threat without its costs.
Eevee- my mix of bulky wall with ridiculous high damage for its defenses. Eats EQ like a baws, double edge 2hko fulldef evio gligar. if gligar switches in eevee he's dead. If gligar SD the first turn, its a free kill.
Krabby- scarfed - ohkos gligar with crabhamer ,definitly not going to be threatened by gligar.
Dratini- usually my weakest option but his function is for status absorbing and elemental resisting, still, a dragon dance is enough to 2hko wall gligar, while surviving EQs.
Machop- scarfed revenge killer, 1hkos gligar.

My team is built to gain momentum from high damage bulkyness and punishing opponent switching, mixing it with type resisting and good countering coverage+ revenge kill.

As you can see, what matters to beat gligar is having a higher momentum. Either outspeed scarfed ko, or bulkyness with high damages easily beat gligar, that requires SD to kill them and loses momentum to most of them. In the moment, ppl use it along with:
| Teammates |
| Meditite +10.484% |
| Pawniard +8.911% |
| Swirlix +5.717% |
| Slowpoke +4.040% |
| Carvanha +3.169% |
| Chinchou +2.022% |
| Larvesta +1.827% |
| Spritzee +1.691% |
| Tirtouga +1.094% |
| Munchlax +0.929% |
| Magnemite +0.639% |
| Foongus +0.368% |

As you can see, these are his teammates and most times it's opponents. It's clear as water that he overpowers any of them in momentum on their main sets except carvanha& tirtouga for obvious reasons. People don't have to restrict themselves to these pokemons as they do, it's people not realizing that, that makes gligar powerful.
So, in conclusion, what i mean is that the real reason gligar being considered strong is that of people relying too much on standard sets with pokemons selected only because of it's considered viability rankings, and don't really want to improve or differenciate it's team/playstyle, trying to ban gligar for being inconvinient for their playstyle. Scarf and bulky sweepers exist for a reason, they're not necessarily inferior to others

Corkscrew: your gligar set is certainly interesting but lacks roost, and you're not accounting scarfed killers, priority users or infiltrators/prankster and other counters.If someone doesn't have any of this options on his team, than he certainly has alot of issues dealing with many oher threats like shellsmashers.
and that's even considering you are letting him swords dance, which you can deal by having higher damage ratio as i explained in my post. im not sure how you can state it as broken, when it certainly is easier to handle than shellsmashers, for which scarf is no longer an option.

 

[Chieliee]

disclaimer: I have read none of this thread bar the first post in order to let my opinion be as un-biased as possible. Sorry if i'm saying thing other people have already said or that stupid shit. I will make remarks on what other people have said after i've made this post/read through the whole fucking thread/find things to comment on.

I'll start off with discussing Gligar:

1) Is Gligar broken?

Yes, Gligar is broken in my opinion. Hitting the 19 speed benchmark is obviously a huge boon, as it allows Gligar to outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame (and speed tie with the other important mons) It's above-average Attack stat, amazing dual stabs, access to Swords Dance and acces to various offensive utility make Gligar an offensive beast. It can severely cripple common switch-ins such as Porygon and Slowpoke with Knock Off, while also able to give the user some great momentum with U-turn. The most dangerous offensive sets are SubSD and SD+3 attacks (usually Knock Off as the final move). While SubSD has more trouble in dealing with mons such as Slowpoke and Misdreavus, it can activate its Berry Juice whenever it wants, which is an amazing trait. It can also get free Substitutes on, for example, Mienfoo (as long as it's not running HP Ice - running a 60bp special move on a generally physical mon should make my point (gligar is broken) even clearer). This allows it to do big damage. When i used SubSD Gligar on the team i did reqs with, it was either a wallbreaker or an endgame sweeper. When used as a wallbreaker, it was usually the mon that died first, but not after taking down 2 or 3 mons on the opposing team. It doesn't even require heavy prediction, it's just so good. SD+Knock Off Gligar plays a somewhat different role on most teams. I haven't used it myself, but I've faced it often enough. It can cripple mons such as Slowpoke and Porygon which allows, for example, Tirtouga to sweep later on in the match because they can't take a +2 Stone Edge anymore. Finally, Gligar likes to run an Itemless set to have Acrobatics at full power instantly. This can catch Mienfoo and Meditite off-guard (trying to U-turn out, use Knock Off, or even HP Ice /Ice punch for damage and or check for SUb, respectively) and gain a near-free KO on many occasions. A player might even fear Itemless when there is none, and give the opposing Gligar a free turn to set up SD/U-turn/Set up Stealth Rock/Defog/Knock Off, you name it.

Defensive Gligar, although not as common as offensive Gligar, is also a very powerful force. Stealth Rock, Roost, Defog, Knock Off, U-turn along with a strong STAB in Earthquake make this set fit on nearly any team. It's by far the best Defogger in the tier, which is amplified by they way it can deal with Pawniard quite easily. Defensive gligar can do crazy shit like Knock Off a Slowpoke as it uses Scald on you for just 50% damage (admittedly, you risk the burn, but a knocked off slowpoke is a near-useless slowpoke from my experience) It's combination of bulk, utility and power makes this set broken on it's own right as well.

If, at Team Preview, there were a tag added to gligar saying 'Defensive Defogger' or 'SubSD' or 'Itemless SD with Knock Off' Gligar would still be broken in my opinion, because every individual set's qualities stand way above the league of any other Little Cup Mon (which is where Gligar differs from Swirlix).

As a final argument, i'd like to state that nearly 80% of Little Cup teams used in SPL contained Gligar, and those who didn't use it usually lost.

2) Is Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

I'm taking this opportunity to talk about speed ties, which suck. Gligar isn't the only one causing speed ties, but because of it's humoungous usage numbers, most speed ties are Gligar vs Gligar, Gligar vs Misdreavus or Gligar vs Murkrow. These speed ties are very often deciding for the outcome of a match, especially when they happen late-game. Gligar makes a huge number of Little Cup battles where players are quite evenly matched decided by luck, which shouldn't be a trait of a tier.

3) Is Gligar deterring people from playing Little Cup

To be honest, i don't think so. People like abusing Gligar too much...

ok i'm tired of making long posts, i'll make one for Swirlix later on.

i know i've been stating the obvious, but as i said in the beginning of my post i'm not trying to respond to anyone, just putting out my own opinion

 

[Heysup]

Sorry, too busy to read everything, but this argument is bad. How can you say "Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame" when they keep one of the current suspects in check? This is exactly my point. If no one is making an effort to adapt around the threats in the metagame, then obviously something is going to seem broken.

In my personal experience, I've had less and less trouble with Swirlix as time has progressed. I've adjusted my teams as necessary to handle it better over time, and my experiences laddering during the suspect test showed me the same thing. I laddered with Belly Drum Swirlix, and it didn't even sweep in half my wins. Most of my wins were due to my bulky offensive core that alone handled a lot of the metagame. Even when I did set up, I got fucked over once by a Cottonee, a couple times by Meowth, a couple times by Mienfoo coming in and hitting me with Fake Out after I took damage while setting up. One time I got fucked over by my own Stealth Rock when my opponent pivoted in twice into Stealth Rock until it got down to 50% and Berry Juice recovered it. Simply keeping up offensive pressure in many games prevented me from setting up. These are ways of handling Swirlix, and you can't just dismiss them as bad when they do the job.

I don't think they're bad. But they don't beat Swirlix though unless its Theif Belly Drum.

Here's vs CG:

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fake Out vs. +3 20 HP / 148 Def Swirlix: 4-5 (17.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

252 Atk Normal Gem Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. +3 20 HP / 148 Def Swirlix: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6)

252 Atk Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. +3 20 HP / 148 Def Swirlix: 3-4 (13 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

Protect is self-explanatory.

Your other arguments: Cottonee gets hit pretty hard by Flamethrower or even a neutral STAB Fairy attack, but I do agree its the most reliable check. And double-switching? Getting monstrously outplayed by double-switching when your opponent is about to send Swirlix in is not a very good argument. You can double switch like a shitty Sturdy Rock-type Pokemon vs Scyther and make it switch out, and it takes even more from Stealth Rock. Outplaying is not a valid way of "handling" Swirlix because you can't reliably do it unless you are substantially better and luckier than your opponent, which is not situation that is conducive to finding a balanced metagame.

 

[Artemisa]

One thing is adapting, another thing is resorting to using things that really aren't that good in the current metagame just to check something extremely dangerous.

I mean what can Aipom and Meowth do that other things can't do better?

What I don't like about Swirlix is the unpredictability of the sets, not as in if it's either CM or BD, but within the moveset. BD gets walled by steels, but if that set has Flamethrower, then Swirlix can just wear you down completely. Same goes for thief / CG / Aroma / Sub etc etc because they can all overcome these so called "checks/counters". Yes I understand you can't run all those moves in one set, but you also can't run all those pokemon that stop Swirlix all at once. I really don't think we should resort to "Most Swirlix don't have this so I'm ok", since this still doesn't take away the fact that it can run it, is viable, and helps it overcome certain pokemon like an example: Honedge. This is just the unpredictability of the moveset, you still have to figure out if its BD or CM. CM Swirlix, unlike the BD, has a shitload of options in arsenal. It has psychic / surf / flamethrower / thunderbolt / Dazzling Gleam / CG / Draining Kiss. It's amazing how many checks Swirlix can overcome with just the right 4th move, and it's too much effort trying to check/counter. It's even hard revenging since it resist some strong/common Priorities (Sucker Punch and Mach), the only thing that can efficiently revenge it with priority is Meditite with LO Fake out + BP. Other than that nothing really can revenge it due to unburden.

You have to consider too much when you aren't building a team and it forces you to overprepare for Swirlix, and you still have to prepare for the other threats in the metagame. Ban Swirlix.

Will post on Gligar later

 

[Morty]

1. Is Swirlix/Gligar Broken?

Swirlix:

It's really all been said and there's little point in bringing it up. Personally, I think this thing is barely broken, and wouldn't be broken at all if not for berry juice fully healing it after belly drum. But as long as we conclude that berry juice isn't a bad influence (about which I have mixed feelings) this thing is just a monster. The thing about LC that makes it so cool is the unique stat ratios low level pokemon have. In general and especially before eviolite, LC is fast paced because with low stats and levels, the damage formula favors the attacker more so than any other tier. This gives LC a unique flavor, but also means that it becomes very easy to have ridiculously powerful sweepers. Swirlix can get to +2 +6 in one turn, and can also sweep specially because of the relatively low stat requirements to be a viable attacker. In LC, there are tons of pokemon that can viably attack and do some real damage, but we say these pokemon are unviable because there are other pokemon that do their job better. We aren't wrong, but it doesn't change the fact with the right boosts anything can be a threat. Now take a pokemon whose physical set is so powerful that if you don't immediately brace yourself to deal with it you will probably lose, and give it two different special sets.

Gligar:

Again, much of it has been said, but I'll make this quick. Gligar's stats are just so much better than the rest of his lc piers, as is usually the case with pokemon designed to be a single stage. Its mix of bulk, attack, and speed allows him to be more statistically dominating than any pokemon in any other tier. Imagine if there was an OU pokemon that could speed tie with the best of them, and also had the defense of gliscor and also one of the tiers better attack stats. Hands down, Gligar has the best stats in the tier. Usually pokemon like this are balanced out with bad movepools or abilities, but Gligar excels at both. Instant recovery, acrobatics+berry juice, knock off, taunt, earthquake, swords dance, agility, baton pass, stealth rocks and u-turn. It's actually easier to list which of the best moves in the game Gligar doesn't get. Hyper Cutter also makes Gligar even harder to stop if it feels like being a sweeper that day, and with those stats combined with those moves, it can pretty much be just about the best at whatever it does. I made it to top 20 in the tier with mostly unboosted Gligar sweeps. Swords dance mostly just helps Gligar get past other Gligars.

What they do to the tier:

The main thing I'm getting at here is that these pokemon are almost impossible to stop. Key word, almost. Some people seem to think that little word means a pokemon isn't broken. Extreme speed Arceus is walled by a combination of heatran and shedinja, not broken at all right? Here's my point. These pokemon force people to add usually a minimum of three pokemon to stop them. If you use Gligar and Swirlix too (and you'd be missing out if you didn't) that's pretty much your team and just about everyone else's. Meditite shares this same problem, only really being walled by a gligar slowpoke combination depending on coverage, and it will certainly be suspected when Gligar is banned. I personally can't wait for these three party poopers to stop dictating everyone's teams and get creative.

Conclusion

Gligar: When one of the only way to stop a pokemon's offensive set is to use that pokemon's defensive set, it's time for a ban.

Swirlix: Possible to deal with, but trivializes gameplay with how easy it is to use and how hard it is to stop. Broken? Not so much as Gligar, but it definitely makes the tier less fun to the point I'm willing to lean to one side of the fence and go pro ban.

 

[youngjake93]

A lot of what I think has already been covered so I will try not to reiterate that bit.

Anyway, there are a few reasons I feel Swirlix is extremely broken on top of what everyone else is saying. The first one is that its movepool is freaking ridiculous. I can play against a Swirlix as best I can and bring a team that theoretically has a GREAT matchup and still get screwed.
In particular, I had been running liquid ooze tenta and t-wave ferro and bisharp. It is kind of ridiculous that I have been swept by Psychic/Tbolt+Flamethrower Swirlix sets before. This thing literally has the potential to beat ANY team BY ITSELF. It just comes down to if it happens to be running that certain combination of moves(including the obscure ones like Psychic) that you can't possibly prepare for alongside preparing for its other sets AND somehow maintaining a highly competitive team.

The other thing I wanted to point out about Swirlix is that it doesn't need to beat you by itself to be broken. For one thing, all it takes is rocks for most Swirlix to annihalate any Magnemite. And as we all know, HO teams often have their ways to not give a shit or even benefit from Rapid Spin or Defog attempts.
But even worse yet, Sturdy Juice sweepers often carry similar checks as Swirlix. All it takes is an attempt at a Swirlix sweep to leave the battlefield ruined enough for Tirtouga to clean up for example. I know that most of my checks/counters need to be healthy to beat them, but I can't keep them healthy for both without running full stall which just gives more setup opportunities. Yet I can't use offensive pressure to deter setting up because they just go LOL berry juice.

Literally the best way to win in this meta is to set up your shit before they set up their shit and do the big battlefield scarring dmg first and I believe Swirlix is the cause of this. I don't believe this is a desirable state for the meta to be in and even if it were, Swirlix is too good at it to be healthy.

On Gligar:
In my opinion, Gligar doesn't even compare to Swirlix. 19 speed is checkable. You can run a scarf, bank on a speed tie, whatever. Also, a lot of the meta isn't flat OHKOd by it and can retaliate. I do think it is the best Pokemon in the meta right now and you'd be hard-pressed to find a reason not to use it, but it isn't hard to deal with, isn't overwhelming if you have a solid team+understanding of what Gligar can do and is in my opinion healthy for the metagame as a detterent to the buildup of fighting spam that isn't Spritzee. I could see an overcentralizing case being made if it weren't for the fact that Gligar checks are good on their own right and their is no strain placed on teambuilding to use them.

Edit: lol sorry you had to unlike my post after reading the 2nd half corkscrew. Just imo the SD set is no more difficult to check than let's say Carvahna for example.

 

[Burnside]

A few pages back I made the argument that Gligar should be banned because of the over centralization that is taking place in the meta, due to his presence, that is leading to less creative team building, a lack of moveset diversity, and overall an LC meta that isn't as much fun. I felt that only one of the suspects should be removed from the meta so that we could more clearly observe the effects of one without the presence of the other. I still feel that if only one suspect is to be banned that it should be Gligar (you can read my post on page 1 for a thorough explanation of this). However, having reading the thread in depth and reflecting on my experience with Swirlix I am starting to be convinced that removing both from the meta is ultimately what will occur and that perhaps the ban of both should simply take place now if it is inevitable. My reluctance to say that Swirlix should be banned immediately is because it has not over-centralized the meta in the way that Gligar has, but I have no doubt that it will. Many people have discussed how Swirlix's power and unpredictability make him broken in this LC environment. I agree with them. Both suspects should be removed from LC. It will lead to a meta that is more balanced, that more pokemon are viable in, increased moveset and team diversity, and one that is overall more fun.

 

[Rowan]

Edit: lol sorry you had to unlike my post after reading the 2nd half corkscrew. Just imo the SD set is no more difficult to check than let's say Carvahna for example.

Sorry lol, I liked it because it explains Swirlix being broken quite well, but I really disagree with the Gligar part, as I already explained in my first post. Carvanha has very clear checks and counters in Croagunk, Timburr, Spritzee, Cottonee (and more) and requires quite a bit of support to get round them. The difference is, Gligar can just support itself with its own Knock Off and then it can easily get past all of its 'counters'

 

[youngjake93]

A few pages back I made the argument that Gligar should be banned because of the over centralization that is taking place in the meta, due to his presence, that is leading to less creative team building, a lack of moveset diversity, and overall an LC meta that isn't as much fun. I felt that only one of the suspects should be removed from the meta so that we could more clearly observe the effects of one without the presence of the other. I still feel that if only one suspect is to be banned that it should be Gligar (you can read my post on page 1 for a thorough explanation of this). However, having reading the thread in depth and reflecting on my experience with Swirlix I am starting to be convinced that removing both from the meta is ultimately what will occur and that perhaps the ban of both should simply take place now if it is inevitable. My reluctance to say that Swirlix should be banned immediately is because it has not over-centralized the meta in the way that Gligar has, but I have no doubt that it will. Many people have discussed how Swirlix's power and unpredictability make him broken in this LC environment. I agree with them. Both suspects should be removed from LC. It will lead to a meta that is more balanced, that more pokemon are viable in, increased moveset and team diversity, and one that is overall more fun.

I don't think you can state with certainty that banning these two will necessarily lead to a more diverse meta... These are two spectacular Pokemon that not only are Fighting+Knock Off checks, but use them as set up bait often. I have seen teams using three fighting types AND bisharp before so I can only imagine what the removal Swirlix+Gligar will do.
This is why I believe banning something because it is good and popular in the name of variety is silly. For all you know, there could be less variety and a less desirable meta after the ban. There are too many variables to justify a ban(although it could be test-worthy).
However, I respect all arguments about either threat being broken such as this one.

Sorry lol, I liked it because it explains Swirlix being broken quite well, but I really disagree with the Gligar part, as I already explained in my first post. Carvanha has very clear checks and counters in Croagunk, Timburr, Spritzee, Cottonee (and more) and requires quite a bit of support to get round them. The difference is, Gligar can just support itself with its own Knock Off and then it can easily get past all of its 'counters'

Yes, Gligar is much harder to hard-check or counter and is very great, but it is much easier to soft-check with offensive pressure avoiding set up opportunities, speed-ties/outspeeding, or keeping your checks very healthy with an item intact. However, I feel my lack of extensive experience with stall and preferring balanced playstyles as a newbie might be why I haven't felt Gligar being too powerful.

 

[Antar]

youngjake93, I liked your post (even though I've been arguing in favor of banning Gligar) because I too am concerned about losing checks to fighting-types. This is the rabbit hole we go down:

-Lose Sneasel, Yanma and Tangela become too powerful
-Lose Yanma and Tangela, Gligar becomes too powerful
-Lose Gligar, fighting types and Knock Off dominate

and then before you know it, we're back at Gen V LC.

I will say, though, that there are still plenty of poison-types in the tier to keep fighting in check, and the presence of fairies (Cottonee? Spritzee?) will only make them more common (this might be an argument in favor of not banning Swirlix--not just because Swirlix itself keeping fighting-types in check, but because the Pokemon that counter Swirlix also counter fighting-types. Idk).

Knock Off is trickier, and honestly I think we might need to consider suspecting it down the road, but I like that it's restoring some of the offensive focus of Gen IV- LC that Gen V LC lacked.

Bottom line: Even without Gligar (and Swirlix), I don't think Gen VI LC is as friendly to fighting-types as Gen V LC was. Knock Off is a separate issue, but honestly, one of its worst abusers is Gligar, so I think banning Gligar will kind of end up being a wash in terms of its effects on the dominance of Knock Off.

 

[Wobbyble]

Sorry, too busy to read everything, but this argument is bad. How can you say "Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame" when they keep one of the current suspects in check? This is exactly my point. If no one is making an effort to adapt around the threats in the metagame, then obviously something is going to seem broken.

In my personal experience, I've had less and less trouble with Swirlix as time has progressed. I've adjusted my teams as necessary to handle it better over time, and my experiences laddering during the suspect test showed me the same thing. I laddered with Belly Drum Swirlix, and it didn't even sweep in half my wins. Most of my wins were due to my bulky offensive core that alone handled a lot of the metagame. Even when I did set up, I got fucked over once by a Cottonee, a couple times by Meowth, a couple times by Mienfoo coming in and hitting me with Fake Out after I took damage while setting up. One time I got fucked over by my own Stealth Rock when my opponent pivoted in twice into Stealth Rock until it got down to 50% and Berry Juice recovered it. Simply keeping up offensive pressure in many games prevented me from setting up. These are ways of handling Swirlix, and you can't just dismiss them as bad when they do the job.

Mewoth's actually OK in this metagame seeing as it's the best priority revenger in the game right now with Life Orb. Since Fake Out and Feint (combined base power of 157.5 including stab) are your main moves you can even run Adamant to ensure you almost always 2HKO Fletchlings with Fake Out+Feint. This doesn't make Meowth some god revenger to Swirlix though. Feint actually goes through Protect, but in reality it's almost never a good idea to Feint instead of Fake out on the first turn against BD, unless you KNOW they have Protect. That's where the issue with Swirlix comes in. Its unpredictability, its broad range of sets, its broad range of moves within its movesets, and the guesswork involved in order to outplay them. It's very similar to Genesect in OU at the moment. You have to guess if its Scarf, Ebelt, Band, or a boosting set. Guess wrong, and you lose a mon or two for free, or just flat out lose the game at that instant. So chances are a lot of those times that your opponent beat your Swirlix, it was with a ton of guesswork and just blind hope that you didn't carry Protect (which you should have).

Swirlix is a Pokemon that I think we could benefit from giving a little more time in the metagame. The more time we have with Swirlix, the more time we get to check out its full potential and learn all the best ways of checking and countering it. Unlike Gligar, which hasn't changed at all since the beginning of XY, we started out the generation only ever seeing Calm Mind Swirlix. Then people started to use Belly Drum, and we adjusted and learned the best ways of beating it. Then people started using Calm Mind/Cotton Guard, and people are still learning the best ways to handle that set. In the end, I'm not so convinced that Swirlix is as obviously broken as people have made it out to be when I've seen so little effort being made to adjust around it. I used to feel the same way as many people do about Swirlix, but over time, I managed to adapt around it. I just don't believe that I'm the only one who can manage that. Again, to answer the questions in the OP: maybe, no, maybe. I'd like more time with it in the metagame to get more solid answers to those questions. Perhaps I'll end up being convinced that it's broken, but I think this is a case where we're better off learning from it than we are banishing it right away.

IMO I don't see how you can say Swirlix will benefit from more time while you voted yes for a Yanma ban a month after Sneasel's ban :/
It's been well over a month and since people began using Cotton Guard, and well over two months or more since Belly Drum became common. I've seen enough, I've seen that there are 0 viable counters to Swirlix, and I'm getting bored of running HazeKrow as the safest and most viable way to deal with Swirlix in general. Using HazeKrow on my main alt, I've never lost more than 2 mons to Swirlix in 52 games. It still doesn't change my opinion on Swirlix in the slightest. We've given it plenty of time, and it has fully shown that it is something that has no reliable and viable counterplay outside of HazeKrow. I don't know who you're playing against where you can "adapt" to Swirlix. If you're not using HazeKrow or Wooper, each Swirlix you come across is a challenge. Each Swirlix has a potential to sweep you from the moment you guess its set wrong, or the moment they get Stealth Rocks down with Swirlix up, or the moment your Foongus drops to 50%. You have to take into account for 3 different sets, and each of its subsets when keeping your flimsy checks healthy. It has no viable counters, it doesn't even have more than 3 or 4 solid checks. It's absolutely ridiculous and time won't fix it.

 

[Antar]

I don't understand. Doesn't

Using HazeKrow on my main alt, I've never lost more than 2 mons to Swirlix in 52 games.

directly contradict

I've seen that there are 0 viable counters to Swirlix, and I'm getting bored of running HazeKrow as the safest and most viable way to deal with Swirlix in general.

That is, how is HazeKrow not a viable counter to Swirlix?

 

[blarajan]

it dies in the process

he doesn't want to bring it in directly in case swirlix uses fairy move so he sacks something, then brings in murkrow and sacks that with haze. ie, two pokemon.

 

[Wobbyble]

I don't understand. Doesn't


directly contradict


That is, how is HazeKrow not a viable counter to Swirlix?

HazeKrow doesn't "counter" Swirlix. You typically just end up trading 1 for 1, and guaranteeing that Swirlix does not sweep you. If Murkrow was a "counter" then I'd be able to send in HazeKrow, kill Swirlix, and come out alive. Which rarely happens (when I get Twave hax).

EDIT: Blarajan is fast. What he said. It's more of a "safety net", not a "counter"

 

[atomicllamas]

Cubone @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Def / 36 SDef / 196 Atk / 4 Spd / 36 HP
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Counter
- Knock Off

Why would anyone use this over a defensive Gligar though? (I mean I know you are running mono-gen) With this spread Cubone has raw stats of 22 / 14 / 20 / 9 / 12 / 10 (not factoring in eviolite) while a Gligar with a spread of 236 Def / 236 SpD with an impish nature reaches raw stats of 23 / 14 / 22 / 9 / 16 / 15 (not factoring eviolite). On top of this Gligar has reliable recovery in Roost, can support its team better (both have SR but Gligar gets defog), or generate momentum with a (slowish) U-turn or baton pass. It also takes on opposing Sub SD Gligar better because it has access to Aqua Tail and is not reliant on counter to do significant damage to opposing Gligar (counter makes it a mind game that gligar's with sub will probably win). It also has better typing trading an extra ice weakness and a Rock Neutrality for an immunity to ground, a resistance to fighting, a resistance to bug, and a neutrality to grass. And it isn't like Cubone is taking ice-type attacks which hit from the special side (and are generally from water-types) that much better than Gligar anyways.

Basically what I'm saying is your team would objectively better with Gligar on it over Cubone, and there are very few teams that wouldn't be better with Gligar on it. To me this is a huge problem, that the best Pokemon in the tier's best counter is a more defensive version of itself. This has really prevented the LC metagame from developing beyond a competition to kill the opposing Gligar faster. If you are trying to tell me that this isn't unhealthy for the meta game, I honestly don't know what is.

I also have a problem with you saying that you Gligar is "easy" to deal with, then showing me a team with Eviolite Cubone (outclassed and not that great), and 2 scarf pokemon, one with Ice Punch and one with a Water-type STAB move (even Grimer could be considered a lure (though, like a lot of your team, it loses to Sub SD Gligar anyways)). Your team's over preparation to Gligar has left this team extremely weak to Meditite, Slowkpoke, Chinchou, Murkrow and to an extent Spritzee, I don't even know how it realistically functions.

-Lose Sneasel, Yanma and Tangela become too powerful
-Lose Yanma and Tangela, Gligar becomes too powerful
-Lose Gligar, fighting types and Knock Off dominate

I will say, though, that there are still plenty of poison-types in the tier to keep fighting in check, and the presence of fairies (Cottonee? Spritzee?) will only make them more common (this might be an argument in favor of not banning Swirlix--not just because Swirlix itself keeping fighting-types in check, but because the Pokemon that counter Swirlix also counter fighting-types. Idk).

I know you aren't really saying this is reason to not ban Swirlix, but it should really be stressed that this is not the way to think about bans, we should not keep something broken in the tier because it keeps other potentially broken things in check. If something is broken it should be removed, so the next meta can be evaluated independently (without theorymonning).

 

[apt-get]

anything I wanted to say would be said better by something else, but just saying that I agree 100% with artemisa's post, which is really small compared to some of the tl;dr's in this thread, but sums up everything broken about swirlix.

I'm on the fence about gligar. It's a really good utility mon, really fun to play with and against most of the time, but yea there's the fact subSD is really lethal in this meta, along with evio SD aqua tail/knock off/eq. If it weren't for these sets, gligar would be a strong, but really good pokémon in the meta, akin to last gen foo. there are just like so many fucking pokémon that are only broken on some sets, pls bring back speed boost yanma and non-SD gligar :'(((

I don't have much to say, really, sorry

anyway 1) swirlix and some gligar sets are broken, yes
2)not really (that's my opinion), but some people find the meta not fun
3) overcentralizing is detering ppl from playing LC, yes

 

[Antar]

Wobbyble, okay, I see. I read your post as "Swirlix hasn't gotten more than 2 KOs in total over 52 games, which is nonsensical since even +0 Swirl should KO with Play Rough or Dazzling Gleam.

Two KOs per Swirlix in one match is much more in keeping with your argument.

And thanks, blarajan :)

 

[jas61292]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Swirlix: So, unlike a lot of people here, I am not so sure about Swirlix being broken. I would definitely say it is up there, and I am on the fence about it, but never during my time on the ladder did I think to myself "man, Swirlix is a ridiculous threat that is too hard to stop." It does have a few incredibly good sets, and each is hard to stop in its own right, but I don't feel any of them are truly overpowering in their own right. Additionally, the things that can threaten its various sets (such as Meditite with Bullet Punch) are not obscure checks, but actually decent Pokemon, and most teams should probably be carrying them anyways. The biggest problem with Swirlix is obviously unburden giving it insane speed, but that is only an issue because it gets that with essentially full health. Honestly, its clear to me that it is the item on it that is much more the problem than the Pokemon itself. However, so long as Berry Juice is around, it will continue to ride that fence right at the edge of brokenness. As I said, I don't think any individual set is broken, but the fact that it can do so much is what may push it over the edge. Just look at its stats for the past month: no standard EV spreads, tons and tons of move options and only 3 solid counters (only one of which is all that great in its own right).

Overall, I think I would personally lean towards not banning yet, but I could still be convinced either way on this.

Gligar: Broken as hell. Honestly, this reminds me of last gen OU when Genesect was around. This guy is so freaking good that it makes any team generically better by putting it on it. In fact, comparing my time on the ladder with the usage stats, I am shocked that it was ONLY on 40% of teams. It seemed like it was everywhere, and with good reason. Offensive sets outspeed just about the entire unboosted metagame, and that is coupled with a very good attack stat and amazing physical bulk. Its not like its particularly specially frail either. It can set up offensive boosts super easily, or at the very least sub down to get item activation allowing it to attack with Acrobatics at full power. Flying and Ground is also wonderful coverage and really difficult to wall. And that is just one set. Personally I was using a defensive Gligar on the ladder, and while it was not as directly threatening to opponents as Acrobatics sets, it was practically impossible to kill. Its physical defense is practically unbreakable, letting it come in on pretty much any physical attacker in the game and either kill it or Knock Off an item. I mean, Meditite, one of the most ridiculously powerful Pokemon in the game has only a 6.3% chance to OHKO a max Defensive set with Ice Punch. That's a 4x SE attack from a Pokemon with a stupid 28 Attack. What's more, its no Special Defensive slouch either. A non-STAB Ice Beam from a Pokemon without fantastic SpA will not always take it out in one hit.

The most damning thing though, in my opinion, is how stupidly easy it is to play with. Offensive sets outspeed everything and don't require any real thought to choose your moves. Defensive sets can't be killed, and the only real effort you need to make with it is to decide whether its more valuable to cripple the opponent or go right for a kill. But regardless of which, there is no real risk in using it because there is no real situation where it can't just come out to return later without consequence. Its speed and Knock Off exacerbates this problem even further as no Pokemon can afford to try and set up on it, as it will likely either be crippled or killed should Gligar risk it and stay in.

Frankly, Gligar is just broken in so many ways, and I don't think there is enough I can say to fully explain all the problems it causes in this metagame.

2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

Swirlix: Not really. Its a top threat and you have to be prepared for it, but there is little it is actually doing to the metagame itself that takes any enjoyment out of the game. I find it no different from any other good Pokemon in that regard.

Gligar: Oh, how to even describe how awful Gligar makes this metagame.... Lets be honest here, LC is a fun meta for the most part. But it is not completely fun, and the part that is not fun results entirely from Gligar being legal. As I said above, the biggest problem with Gligar is that it can come in, do its job and then come out freely if threatened with next to no consequence. This results in it being stupidly hard to kill, and makes lots and lots of games come down to who can kill Gligar first. And, half the time, that can only be done with lucky crits. Other than that, you are often forced to try and set up against it, which, as I said before, can backfire heavily if the opponent predicts you. The only other reliable method to taking it out, in my experience, is stupid lures. Personally I was using a freaking 36 SpA Scarf Cranidos with Sheer Force Ice Beam, just for Gligar. Could I have dealt with it without something that silly? Probably. But it just made my play experience so miserable that I would do practically anything to guarantee it would be an non-factor in the battle, and that Cranidos was the best I could find (until I started replaying the same people over again). So yeah, to use the same comparison as before, I can't think of any other individual point in time except 5th gen OU when Genesect was legal where one individual Pokemon has made an entire metagame so miserable to play.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Swirlix: No. I really do not think anyone is avoiding LC because of Swirlix. Its a neat little Pokemon that is pretty fun to play with. Its not the most fun to face, but its not really something that would stop people from playing. While it may still be broken in spite of this, I have never heard anyone complain about it as a problem with LC, unlike things such as Gligar, Berry Juice and the prevalence of Knock Off. Maybe if these other things weren't around, Swirlix would become the focus of complaints from people who can never be satisfied, but for now, I really have a hard time believing that anyone is not playing LC because of its presence.

Gligar: Yes. Very much yes. As I just said, I have specifically heard plenty of complaints about Gligar. This goes way beyond the fact that I think it is ridiculously broken and makes the metagame incredibly unfun just by its very presence. I have seen plenty of people come in and watch LC games only to question why something as "broken" as Gligar is still allowed. What's more, people like variety, and facing Gligar on 40% of teams is not something that people want to have to do. Overall Gligar is just a determent to the tier, and people recognize this and probably play a lot less because of it.

 

[Apollo77]

Okay so it's not like my opinion means much anyway because I'm newer to the LC metagame than most of you soooo feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

I'm really not gonna address Swirlix, because pretty much everyone is agreeing it needs to go. To be quite honest, I myself haven't had a lot of Swirlix problems, but with the amount of crap it can pull off, it definitely deserves the ban.

What I'm really here to peddle for is the ban of Gligar. It defines the whole metagame, because let's face it, if you don't have several Gligar counters, you're screwed. Gligar can set up a Swords Dance with ease thanks to its bulk and typing that resists many common attacks. Then, once SD is up, nothing is safe. I'm pretty sure Gligar 2HKO's the entire tier at that point, barring exceptions like mons otherwise not viable in the meta. You may argue that no, some mons like Lileep/Slowpoke/Spritzee/whatever can avoid the 2HKO. But then what? First of all, most Gligar carry Knock Off, so once a wall's Eviolite has been removed, there's definitely no way it can stand up to Gligar. Hell, your wall may have had its Eviolite Knocked Off already from another mon. Slowpoke especially is mauled by this, being weak to the move. As for other walls like Lileep and Spritzee, what can they do BACK to Gligar? Gligar has the bulk to take whatever they try to hit it with, and then KO it next turn. Then, now that your wall has been mercilessly disposed of, what can you do to revenge kill Gligar? It has 19 speed, so you need either a lucky break on a speed tie or a scarfer. You could also try using a sturdy juice mon like Tirtouga, but that doesn't work when hazards are up, and for this, as well as the previously mentioned options for revenge-killing, the Gligar can just SWITCH OUT AND COME BACK LATER. That's right, Gligar can once again safely switch in on a mon that it walls, set up again, and what do you know, another one of your mons is doomed no matter what, unless you switch in your scarfer on the SD, and then, the Gligar will switch out again, and the mind games continue until eventually Gligar just decides to Earthquake instead of SD and deals a huge chunk of damage. This is, of course, assuming that it's not running Substitute because I said it had Knock off, but if it had Substitute, these mind games would be over in a second. Speaking of Substitute, it's just one of many moves a Gligar can run to deviate from the standard sets and mess with its "counters". It can pack Roost for more longevity, Aqua Tail to have another powerful move with Eviolite equipped, Stealth Rock and Defog as a wall, Baton Pass to pass a Swords Dance/Agility to something else, which can then be just as unstoppable as Gligar. We hate on Swirlix for its unpredictability, but imo, Gligar isn't much different.

To me, Gligar doesn't really seem like a 'broken' Pokemon. It's a great sweeper, and has a wide range of sets it can run, but most LC teams are prepared for Gligar, running multiple checks and counters.

And that right there is what makes it broken; the fact that you need MULTIPLE checks and counters to deal with Gligar. (and that many happen to be guess what? Another Gligar!) And let's say you just so happen to have enough Gligar checks/counters, how well can your team POSSIBLY fare against the rest of LC?

And there's my Gligar rant. Make of it what you will.