Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[unitard]

I'm not going to bother with Swirlix because I think it's outrageously broken and everybody else has pretty much said everything already.

From my experience, Gligar suffers too much from 4 moveslot syndrome to be truly broken. Used defensively, it has great utility, but it can't carry Stealth Rock, Defog, Roost, Knock Off, and U-turn all at the same time. Offensively, it has the same problem. Earthquake, Acrobatics, and Knock Off might be perfect coverage, but then it only has one slot left. I think the most dangerous set is SD, Earthquake, Acrobatics, and BP, but even this I've never had a ton of trouble with. As long as you prevent a clean Baton Pass, you can revenge Gligar with a scarfer. Any other offensive set lacks something, whether it be coverage, power, or speed. (A caveat: I very frequently use Porygon AND Slowpoke)

So I'm a bit on the fence about Gligar. However, it is insanely centralizing. It's very difficult to justify not using it (I'm honestly surprised its usage is only 40%). There are tons of pokes that now carry Ice moves just for Gligar. And people are using particular scarfers just for Gligar.

In conclusion, my opinion:
1) Swirlix is broken
2) Swirlix is sort of making LC less fun
3) Swirlix is probably deterring people from LC

1) Gligar is not truly broken
2) Gligar is making LC less fun
3) Gligar is definitely deterring people from LC

 

[chimp]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Swirlix: So, unlike a lot of people here, I am not so sure about Swirlix being broken. I would definitely say it is up there, and I am on the fence about it, but never during my time on the ladder did I think to myself "man, Swirlix is a ridiculous threat that is too hard to stop." It does have a few incredibly good sets, and each is hard to stop in its own right, but I don't feel any of them are truly overpowering in their own right. Additionally, the things that can threaten its various sets (such as Meditite with Bullet Punch) are not obscure checks, but actually decent Pokemon, and most teams should probably be carrying them anyways.

Its not that swirlix is broken in that its super powerful and near-impossible to revenge, its that, you have to run 2 or 3 counters to stop it. (As Corkscrew pointed out.) If you go with meditite to counter swirlix, then you are going to get wrecked by Cotton Guard sets. The fact that its 3 sets have different counters is what makes it, in my opinion, broken. Foongus and Meditite and Magnemite ARE good pokemon that I encourage everyone to use. But I don't want to see a metagame where every team has those same three pokemon because of swirlix.

 

[jas61292]

Its not that swirlix is broken in that its super powerful and near-impossible to revenge, its that, you have to run 2 or 3 counters to stop it. (As Corkscrew pointed out.) If you go with meditite to counter swirlix, then you are going to get wrecked by Cotton Guard sets. The fact that its 3 sets have different counters is what makes it, in my opinion, broken. Foongus and Meditite and Magnemite ARE good pokemon that I encourage everyone to use. But I don't want to see a metagame where every team has those same three pokemon because of swirlix.

As I said, this is very much the reason why I am on the fence about it and not clearly against banning it. It has a ton of great (but not individually broken) sets, each of which has different counters. The reason why this is not enough for me to clearly say that it is broken is that I don't think people have to go out of their way to run these Pokemon. It is not incredibly restricting to team-building because those Pokemon are the kind of Pokemon most teams would have some of anyways. Again, I'm not saying that is necessarily a good thing, I'm just not fully convinced that it is so bad that it should be considered broken.

With that said, I will admit that I did not run into much of the Cotton Guard set specifically, so I can't judge that as well as I would like. It is definitely quite good though, and hearing a bit more about that set specifically may push me over the edge into the pro ban group.

 

[chimp]

As I said, this is very much the reason why I am on the fence about it and not clearly against banning it. It has a ton of great (but not individually broken) sets, each of which has different counters. The reason why this is not enough for me to clearly say that it is broken is that I don't think people have to go out of their way to run these Pokemon. It is not incredibly restricting to team-building because those Pokemon are the kind of Pokemon most teams would have some of anyways. Again, I'm not saying that is necessarily a good thing, I'm just not fully convinced that it is so bad that it should be considered broken.

With that said, I will admit that I did not run into much of the Cotton Guard set specifically, so I can't judge that as well as I would like. It is definitely quite good though, and hearing a bit more about that set specifically may push me over the edge into the pro ban group.

I know they are popular pokemon that could find their way onto a team by themselves, but if swirlix starts to get really popular then near every team will have to use these three. Just a single mangemite or meditite is usually not enough to prevent swirlix from decimating your team. Forcing you to run 2 or 3 counters just because it has so many different sets is not healthy imo.

 

[Artemisa]

Can you atleast provide an example of a core, not a team, that is designed to beat Swirlix 100%? jas61292

Each battle against a Swirlix you are risking your team due to the unknown set AND moveset. It's too deep for a person to consistently keep it down from actually tearing up your team. Running two or more counters isn't a good thing in LC in my opinion. You have to cover Gligar / Pawniard / Krow / Missy / Mienfoo / Scraggy / Meditite / Timburr / etc etc etc, but you already wasted 2 or 3 slots designed to take on Swirlix. I know you can use some of the same pokemon to cover Swirlix + the pokemon I mentioned and more, but all your doing is wearing that counter down and making it easier for either Swirlix or one of the other pokemon to set up/sweep. Unless you have Regenerator or some type of recovery move your pretty much fucked.

 

[Heysup]

As I said, this is very much the reason why I am on the fence about it and not clearly against banning it. It has a ton of great (but not individually broken) sets, each of which has different counters. The reason why this is not enough for me to clearly say that it is broken is that I don't think people have to go out of their way to run these Pokemon. It is not incredibly restricting to team-building because those Pokemon are the kind of Pokemon most teams would have some of anyways. Again, I'm not saying that is necessarily a good thing, I'm just not fully convinced that it is so bad that it should be considered broken.

With that said, I will admit that I did not run into much of the Cotton Guard set specifically, so I can't judge that as well as I would like. It is definitely quite good though, and hearing a bit more about that set specifically may push me over the edge into the pro ban group.

I know they are popular pokemon that could find their way onto a team by themselves, but if swirlix starts to get really popular then near every team will have to use these three. Just a single mangemite or meditite is usually not enough to prevent swirlix from decimating your team. Forcing you to run 2 or 3 counters just because it has so many different sets is not healthy imo.

Not to sound like a dick, but you guys are missing the point (which would be more obvious if you had run into the Cotton Guard set more, most likely). The point isn't that you have to carry a few Pokemon to reliably stop Swirlix, it's that you need to GUESS the set when countering it because the counters are not if they switch into the set that they don't counter - and this can result in losing the game. For example, you have a Calm Mind Spritzee, Ferroseed, and Meditite. If you think it's BD and switch your Ferroseed into Calm Mind, you will not only lose Ferroseed but then your CM counter Spritzee loses its ability to be an effective counter. Without this counter, you lose the game, because Meditite's Fake Out + Bullet Punch only tickle Cotton Guard Swirlix and it can heal back up to full HP with Draining Kiss. If you switch Spritzee into a BD set, you can't switch Ferroseed in because it gets 2HKOed and you lose Spritzee at the very least. That's with the 3 checks too.

Edit: My point is that those 3 counters don't eliminate the guessing game, it's not a "way around it".

 

[chimp]

Not to sound like a dick, but you guys are missing the point (which would be more obvious if you had run into the Cotton Guard set more, most likely). The point isn't that you have to carry a few Pokemon to reliably stop Swirlix, it's that you need to GUESS the set when countering it because the counters are not if they switch into the set that they don't counter - and this can result in losing the game. For example, you have a Calm Mind Spritzee, Ferroseed, and Meditite. If you think it's BD and switch your Ferroseed into Calm Mind, you will not only lose Ferroseed but then your CM counter Spritzee loses its ability to be an effective counter. Without this counter, you lose the game, because Meditite's Fake Out + Bullet Punch only tickle Cotton Guard Swirlix and it can heal back up to full HP with Draining Kiss. If you switch Spritzee into a BD set, you can't switch Ferroseed in because it gets 2HKOed and you lose Spritzee at the very least. That's with the 3 checks too.

Yeah, that was what I was trying to say. The only way around that guessing game is to just run three counters- one for each swirl set- which is obviously not healthy for the metagame's growth and diversity.

 

[Ashley11]

Exactly, there are 7 different swirlix sets that you have to be prepared for (maybe more). Belly Drum with Thief, Belly Drum with Protect, Belly Drum with Flamethrower, Calm Mind+Dazzling gleam with Thunder bolt, Calm Mind+Dazzling Gleam with Flamethrower, Calm Mind+Dazzling gleam with Surf, and Cotton Guard Calm Mind Swirlix with draining kiss. While one move may make it seem not like a completely different set, they all have different counters (if any) and checks, making it impossible to be prepared for a swirlix. One can not simply prepare for a swirlix. It is seriously impossible unless your team is dedicated to it. For example, you switch in you tentacool against a Calm mind swirlix. Oh, oops, it had thunderbolt and you die. Oh, well it looks like you happen to not have a answer to thunderbolt swirlix. Well, you just lost, and you couldn't help it. Swirlix has so many viable sets that you CAN"T beat every one of them, and this is causing it to become broken. We can't wait for it to settle in with the metagame for us to find more counters, like treecko said. There is already way too many sets to counter to begin with, and finding more isn't going to help. Not every team is going to have Ferroseed, Tirtouga, Meditite, magnemite, and tentacool on the same team, and we definitely shouldn't have to resort to dedicating a team to beat swirlix like that, and if you have to there is something seriously wrong.

 

[blarajan]

cm dgleam flamethrower tbolt beats all of those =)

 

[Heysup]

Not meditite :(

 

[Goldland]

Why would anyone use this over a defensive Gligar though? (I mean I know you are running mono-gen) With this spread Cubone has raw stats of 22 / 14 / 20 / 9 / 12 / 10 (not factoring in eviolite) while a Gligar with a spread of 236 Def / 236 SpD with an impish nature reaches raw stats of 23 / 14 / 22 / 9 / 16 / 15 (not factoring eviolite). On top of this Gligar has reliable recovery in Roost, can support its team better (both have SR but Gligar gets defog), or generate momentum with a (slowish) U-turn or baton pass. It also takes on opposing Sub SD Gligar better because it has access to Aqua Tail and is not reliant on counter to do significant damage to opposing Gligar (counter makes it a mind game that gligar's with sub will probably win). It also has better typing trading an extra ice weakness and a Rock Neutrality for an immunity to ground, a resistance to fighting, a resistance to bug, and a neutrality to grass. And it isn't like Cubone is taking ice-type attacks which hit from the special side (and are generally from water-types) that much better than Gligar anyways.

Basically what I'm saying is your team would objectively better with Gligar on it over Cubone, and there are very few teams that wouldn't be better with Gligar on it. To me this is a huge problem, that the best Pokemon in the tier's best counter is a more defensive version of itself. This has really prevented the LC metagame from developing beyond a competition to kill the opposing Gligar faster. If you are trying to tell me that this isn't unhealthy for the meta game, I honestly don't know what is.

i agree partially, i've never said my cubone is better than gligar but for sure he can severly weaken or kill gligar with knock-off on first turn and counter his earthquake. the knock off on first turn pretty much checks all i need to know about him. Most people actually think they can easily kill my cubone so it's easy to trap them to counter. Still, the 2x weakness instead of 4x rly is good since there's so much ice punchers.

About if it's always the best pick, i don't really agree, it has very decent stats and movepool like other rank-s and A, like misdreavus or ponyta, but he shines mainly because he directly checks the common fighting types people tend to abuse, and also pawniard and some others. Not by strenght per se. Let's say if there were more decent steel types people could tend to overuse them, and in that situation we would be arguing about how overpowered ponyta is.

I also have a problem with you saying that you Gligar is "easy" to deal with, then showing me a team with Eviolite Cubone (outclassed and not that great), and 2 scarf pokemon, one with Ice Punch and one with a Water-type STAB move (even Grimer could be considered a lure (though, like a lot of your team, it loses to Sub SD Gligar anyways)). Your team's over preparation to Gligar has left this team extremely weak to Meditite, Slowkpoke, Chinchou, Murkrow and to an extent Spritzee, I don't even know how it realistically functions.

In the last part you said it all xD. "I don't even know how it realistically functions." That team as said earlier, is made to outlast opponents/outdamage, punishing switches and sacrifice pokemons to weaken opponents and revenge kill so that one of the sweepers ends it. All my scarfers punish with knock off, all non scarfers can revenge kill with priority moves.
Ice punch is an obvious coverage for machop, krabby is there because it hits superhard, it's not specifically adressing gligar. And sub sd is no real different since i always check it with a knockoff. About being weak to the others you state it's really not true except for Prankster Murkrow for hax. Meditite is countered by cubone ,he can afford to switch on meditite and counter ice punch. slowpoke usually switches in my cubone so i end up punishing it with knock off and switch to dratini to finish/force him out. If cubone is down i knock off with krabby.
chinchou is also dealt with by dratini or machop. And its not like chinchou easily switches in any of my pokemon unpunished but grimer, which i usually leave for later game. Murkrow usually is my opponent revenge killer and end up being revenge killed, unless for hax.
Any i posted this weak some funny games i did with it on replay thread, you can always check it out and see. xD

 

[jas61292]

Not to sound like a dick, but you guys are missing the point (which would be more obvious if you had run into the Cotton Guard set more, most likely). The point isn't that you have to carry a few Pokemon to reliably stop Swirlix, it's that you need to GUESS the set when countering it because the counters are not if they switch into the set that they don't counter - and this can result in losing the game. For example, you have a Calm Mind Spritzee, Ferroseed, and Meditite. If you think it's BD and switch your Ferroseed into Calm Mind, you will not only lose Ferroseed but then your CM counter Spritzee loses its ability to be an effective counter. Without this counter, you lose the game, because Meditite's Fake Out + Bullet Punch only tickle Cotton Guard Swirlix and it can heal back up to full HP with Draining Kiss. If you switch Spritzee into a BD set, you can't switch Ferroseed in because it gets 2HKOed and you lose Spritzee at the very least. That's with the 3 checks too.

Edit: My point is that those 3 counters don't eliminate the guessing game, it's not a "way around it".

Ok, yeah, I get that. I do think the fact that I didn't face much of the Cotton Guard set is probably why I was not thinking about it the same way. While the other sets may have different counters, they could still mostly be revenged the same way, so you are not losing out as much if you predict wrong. Having read the counterarguments, I would now say that I am in favor of banning. Not as overwhelmingly in favor as I am with Gligar, as I only think it is broken, and not ruining the tier to its very core.... but yeah, it should probably go.

 

[Ssin]

So since I don't really care about Swirlix because it is obviously broken, I will only be talking about Gligar.

I don't think Gligar is broken, because it has a severe case of 4mss. Looking at usage statistics, around 45% of Gligars are max+ Speed max attack (some have 36 in hp, some have 252 instead of 236, it adds up to +/-45%), I'm going to assume most run Acrobatics / Earthquake / Knock Off or Swords Dance / Utility Move or Swords Dance. The utility move can be a whole lot, it can be the team's defogger, rock setter, Substitute, U-Turn for momentum or even Taunt. Assuming this, there are some pokemon that can counter it, the main one being Shellder, who can come in and live any hit, then proceed to either ice shard if he s below 70% or Icicle Spear, which is a guarrantueed kill (note: 2 no item acrobatics usually kill). Scarfed Shellder does even better. Porygon makes a great counter, because it has acces to reliable recovery, isn't 2HKOd by any of Gligars moves and can always OHKO back. Wailmer is ussually scarfed and even his surf kills. Tirtouga can revenge kill a weakened Gligar or smash in front of a Knock Off-less Gligar (scouting with slowpoke advised) and proceed to OHKO. Corphish makes a great revenge killer, living any hit and OHKO-ing back with crabhammer or kill off Gligars that are below 70% with priority.

The fact that Gligar has enough checks and counters isn't what makes it not broken. It is that it's so easy to lure in and OHKO with any special attacker running HP ice/any ice move. Because Gligar can do so much, it ussually doesn't do anything if you're prepared for one. My favorite Gligar lure is LO HP Ice Mienfoo, but there are others.

So IMO, no Gligar is not broken, no it s not making LC not fun and no it's not deterring people from playing LC

 

[Kavatika]

About if it's always the best pick, i don't really agree, it has very decent stats and movepool like other rank-s and A, like misdreavus or ponyta, but he shines mainly because he directly checks the common fighting types people tend to abuse, and also pawniard and some others. Not by strenght per se. Let's say if there were more decent steel types people could tend to overuse them, and in that situation we would be arguing about how overpowered ponyta is.

Alright, I've been convinced.

First off, in some hypothetical meta were steel-types shined over all other types, that would not make something like Ponyta broken. That would make them anti-meta (or meta depending on how you look at it). The reason we are suspecting Gligar is because it is highly centralizing and is difficult to take down, while it wrecks with its SD + Knock Off set, due to the fact it OHKOes all of it's "counters" at +2 with stealth rock/prior damage on the field once they have been knocked off. Not because it beats fighting-types.

Your team only shows how unhealthy Gligar is for the meta. You, like many other players and teams before you, over-prepare for Gligar. If something were not broken, would you need to over-prepare for it in the first place? No. You also rely on largely unviable checks to beat Gligar. If you need to rely on obscure pokemon in order to beat something, then it is broken. This thing is comparable to Yanma, who was banned because it could sweep by itself and bypass all of it's counters with it's Sub + Coumpoundeyes Hypnosis set, or neuter something and gain massive momentum without even trying with it's U-turn + Compoundeyes Hypnosis set. It's SD Knock Off set lets it bypass all of it's counters, and it can gain momentum for its teammates with its lesser known Baton Pass set. So many things run an ice-type move solely to beat Gligar (murkrow runs hp ice for archen too, but w/e), which makes it obvious that it impacts the metagame.

 

[Artemisa]

So since I don't really care about Swirlix because it is obviously broken, I will only be talking about Gligar.

I don't think Gligar is broken, because it has a severe case of 4mss. Looking at usage statistics, around 45% of Gligars are max+ Speed max attack (some have 36 in hp, some have 252 instead of 236, it adds up to +/-45%), I'm going to assume most run Acrobatics / Earthquake / Knock Off or Swords Dance / Utility Move or Swords Dance. The utility move can be a whole lot, it can be the team's defogger, rock setter, Substitute, U-Turn for momentum or even Taunt. Assuming this, there are some pokemon that can counter it, the main one being Shellder, who can come in and live any hit, then proceed to either ice shard if he s below 70% or Icicle Spear, which is a guarrantueed kill (note: 2 no item acrobatics usually kill). Scarfed Shellder does even better. Porygon makes a great counter, because it has acces to reliable recovery, isn't 2HKOd by any of Gligars moves and can always OHKO back. Wailmer is ussually scarfed and even his surf kills. Tirtouga can revenge kill a weakened Gligar or smash in front of a Knock Off-less Gligar (scouting with slowpoke advised) and proceed to OHKO. Corphish makes a great revenge killer, living any hit and OHKO-ing back with crabhammer or kill off Gligars that are below 70% with priority.

The fact that Gligar has enough checks and counters isn't what makes it not broken. It is that it's so easy to lure in and OHKO with any special attacker running HP ice/any ice move. Because Gligar can do so much, it ussually doesn't do anything if you're prepared for one. My favorite Gligar lure is LO HP Ice Mienfoo, but there are others.

So IMO, no Gligar is not broken, no it s not making LC not fun and no it's not deterring people from playing LC

Revenge killing isn't a good argument since you can pretty much revenge kill all the pokemon in any meta. You will just end up foddering something just to bring the revenge killer in since they scarf mons can't switch in. Porygon can get knocked off and will take a shitload of damage from a +2 acrobatics, so I wouldn't call that a reliable counter.

 

[Ashley11]

So since I don't really care about Swirlix because it is obviously broken, I will only be talking about Gligar.

I don't think Gligar is broken, because it has a severe case of 4mss. Looking at usage statistics, around 45% of Gligars are max+ Speed max attack (some have 36 in hp, some have 252 instead of 236, it adds up to +/-45%), I'm going to assume most run Acrobatics / Earthquake / Knock Off or Swords Dance / Utility Move or Swords Dance. The utility move can be a whole lot, it can be the team's defogger, rock setter, Substitute, U-Turn for momentum or even Taunt. Assuming this, there are some pokemon that can counter it, the main one being Shellder, who can come in and live any hit, then proceed to either ice shard if he s below 70% or Icicle Spear, which is a guarrantueed kill (note: 2 no item acrobatics usually kill). Scarfed Shellder does even better. Porygon makes a great counter, because it has acces to reliable recovery, isn't 2HKOd by any of Gligars moves and can always OHKO back. Wailmer is ussually scarfed and even his surf kills. Tirtouga can revenge kill a weakened Gligar or smash in front of a Knock Off-less Gligar (scouting with slowpoke advised) and proceed to OHKO. Corphish makes a great revenge killer, living any hit and OHKO-ing back with crabhammer or kill off Gligars that are below 70% with priority.

The fact that Gligar has enough checks and counters isn't what makes it not broken. It is that it's so easy to lure in and OHKO with any special attacker running HP ice/any ice move. Because Gligar can do so much, it ussually doesn't do anything if you're prepared for one. My favorite Gligar lure is LO HP Ice Mienfoo, but there are others.

So IMO, no Gligar is not broken, no it s not making LC not fun and no it's not deterring people from playing LC

"It is that it's so easy to lure in and OHKO with any special attacker running HP ice/any ice move."

untrue. While it may be true that I wouldn't expect an hp ice mienfoo, another thing is true. you need 14 spA to one hit ko a gligar, and many lures aren't going to enjoy having to dedicate a lot of their evs just to surprise a gligar. Another fun fact, many of these "lures" aren't really lures, as they get killed before they actually try to kill gligar with hp ice. for example, gligar vs lure mienfoo. Smart players will use substitute because they know they have a good chance of successfully getting it up against a mienfoo. You use hp ice. well, it breaks the sub, and the player knows that you have hp ice. He just subs again, activates berry juice, then next turn kos with acrobatics. I've heard of the hp ice pawniard, which dies to an earthquake before it actually attacks. You may say that lure could hit it on the switch, but that is very shaky thing to pull off. He could switch into his spritzee, misdreavus, anything else if he wants to instead of gligar, then he knows your lure trick. Yes, it may seem like a thing to do that, but i don't think mienfoo is wanting to waste 156 evs into spA and a moveslot just to have a shaky lure to one pokemon. As for pokemon that already carry ice beam in their moveset, any smart player won't switch a gligar into a porygon, sorry. I don't see it happening. So what I'm trying to say is no, it is definitely not easy to use a lure mienfoo or pawniard, wasting evs and a moveslot, which could've been use for knock off, fake out, u-turn, etc.


"it ussually doesn't do anything if you're prepared for one."

Gligar can do whatever it wants to do against your team actually. you lead off with your lead meditite, I lead off with gligar. Automatically you are screwed turn one. I have so many moves I could be using turn one you have no idea what to switch into at all. For example, gligar can use on turn one any of these moves: Stealth Rock, Substitute, Acrobatics, Earthquake, Swords Dance, U-turn, Knock off, Aqua Tail. eight turn one moves I could potentially be using considering what I think you will do. You stay in, I am itemless gligar and beat you with acrobatics. You could stay in, I u-turn out into slowpoke, you now are in another disadvantage position. You switch to ferroseed, I use substitute. You switch to ferroseed, I use swords Dance. You switch to Ferroseed, I use Knock off. So many possibilities, and there is no real way to know what to do in the situation, as i can do anything i want and you can't predict it. This really is a problem for every team, as if gligar gets in an advantageous matchup, you are screwed unless you guess that one in eight chance of what it will do. No matter how much you prepare for gligar, a well played gligar will do something to your team.

In the end, Gligar doesn't simply get countered. If it is well played gligar, it will even wreck the counters. I can easily predict your switch into porygon, use knock off, then u-turn into pawniard. I keep doing this with my matchups, and eventually you are withered down to a point where nothing can beat the gligar. Gligar can easily wreck teams when played properly, and most counters not named shellos are going to have a very tough time beating it.

 

[Wobbyble]

So since I don't really care about Swirlix because it is obviously broken, I will only be talking about Gligar.

I don't think Gligar is broken, because it has a severe case of 4mss. Looking at usage statistics, around 45% of Gligars are max+ Speed max attack (some have 36 in hp, some have 252 instead of 236, it adds up to +/-45%), I'm going to assume most run Acrobatics / Earthquake / Knock Off or Swords Dance / Utility Move or Swords Dance. The utility move can be a whole lot, it can be the team's defogger, rock setter, Substitute, U-Turn for momentum or even Taunt. Assuming this, there are some pokemon that can counter it, the main one being Shellder, who can come in and live any hit, then proceed to either ice shard if he s below 70% or Icicle Spear, which is a guarrantueed kill (note: 2 no item acrobatics usually kill). Scarfed Shellder does even better. Porygon makes a great counter, because it has acces to reliable recovery, isn't 2HKOd by any of Gligars moves and can always OHKO back. Wailmer is ussually scarfed and even his surf kills. Tirtouga can revenge kill a weakened Gligar or smash in front of a Knock Off-less Gligar (scouting with slowpoke advised) and proceed to OHKO. Corphish makes a great revenge killer, living any hit and OHKO-ing back with crabhammer or kill off Gligars that are below 70% with priority.

The fact that Gligar has enough checks and counters isn't what makes it not broken. It is that it's so easy to lure in and OHKO with any special attacker running HP ice/any ice move. Because Gligar can do so much, it ussually doesn't do anything if you're prepared for one. My favorite Gligar lure is LO HP Ice Mienfoo, but there are others.

So IMO, no Gligar is not broken, no it s not making LC not fun and no it's not deterring people from playing LC

Ok so first of all, who would keep Gligar in on Shellder, Wailmer, or Porygon without being boosted. You seemed to mostly only discuss revenge killers, which is irrelevant imo, since almost none of the ones you discussed can even switch in without taking 50%. And Gligar can simply switch out.

Gligar's offensive moves include Acrobatics, EQ, U Turn, Knock Off, and Aqua Tail. These 5 combined with the potential to boost with Swords Dance make it already borderline broken. I've even seen 4 Gligar run 4 attacking moves, which is a huge threat. Mienfoo is known for Knock Off/U Turning things to support its team and gain momentum. Gligar can do this too, it doesn't have to run Swords Dance. Slowpoke is a common switch in to Gligar. After taking a Knock Off for nearly half of its health, it becomes crippled as a physical wall as its now 2HKO by Gligar's Acrobatics. The same goes for things like Spritzee, Porygon, Munchlax, etc. There's just not a "good way" to deal with Gligar. One of the best ways to deal with offensive Gligar is defensive Gligar with Aqua Tail, but shown in this replay, not even Gligar can successfully check itself.

It's a jack of all trades mon, but it's a jack of all trades that's above average at everything. Not broken in anything particular, but better than most at everything. Stealth Rocker? Gligar check? Defogger? Utility pivot? Offensive pivot? Sweeper? Baton passer? Baton pass reciever? Gligar's your answer to everything. The thing is, Gligar's the first or second one that comes to mind for all of these. It's so strong at everything that there's no reason to NOT use it. It's high bulk, power, and amazing movepool for both utility and offense makes it retardedly rewarding to use, and frustrating to play against. Almost all players struggle to overcome "Gligar syndrome" when teambuilding, which is trying to find a reason to not have Gligar. I feel as if the only time people don't use Gligar is when they intentionally do not include it. This attributes to one of the current flaws of the Little Cup, and is detrimental to the metagame and tier.

Ssin said that it's not deterring people from playing LC, and I can confirm this is not true. I don't have any logs on hand, but I have seen first hand new players say something along the lines of "Wow why isn't Gligar banned, this tier is so unfair" and I'm personally growing bored of having to include Gligar in almost all of my serious teams. I'm aware Little Cup will always be centralized, but having it be to the point where it's illogical not to use a certain mon screams for an obvious ban.

 

[Expulso]

jas61292 Here is a replay showing demonstrating (there Artemisa) how broken CG CM is.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-85554559

The guy's pretty good, but Swirlix dominated. Of course, most other sets could do this, but this can absorb Paralysis and keep going, due to the bulk provided.

 

[Artemisa]

????

One battle isn't enough proof for a ban, can you please stop ?_?

Edit: He said broken not demonstration which is really different. People have already explained how the CG + CM set worked.

 

[Antar]

Artemisa, IMO, it was a good demonstration for how CG+CM Swirlix works, for those who haven't seen it in action before.

 

[Rowan]

Something to say about using scarfers to beat Gligar. If you solely rely on scarfers/revengers to beat it something will die everytime Gligar switches in. Sorry, but if scarf Chinchou is your only Gligar check, you have nothing to switch into it since EQ obviously OHKOs. Same goes for Amaura or Snover with acro.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-334
This replay of dcae vs. Ray Jay just shows emphasises that. Scarfchou was RayJay's only check and it got decimated because Ray Jay predicted acrobatics instead of EQ. If Ray Jay didn't switch Chinchou in, something wuold have died anyway, dcae would have switched out and then something else would have died next time Gligar got in.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-285
Also, this just shows Gligar's Knock Off + SD set, getting past 'one of the best counters' to it, Archen.

These matches are SPL so it's obviously high level play, and Heysup and Ray Jay (2 of the best LCers around) just got completely wrecked by Gligar.

 

[Aladyyn]

Okay, I haven't read anything before the 3rd page and I've only read that because Cork told me to earlier.
Swirlix
The ugly cotton candy is simply the most threatening setup sweeper in the meta. Yes, it does have counters, but those can only switch into some of the sets. I think the CG set is the most overall dangerous, because it can boost both its defenses, which means preventing revenge killing, as well as its offense, thanks to CM. Because of how physical the metagame has become, crits are often the only way you can break CGCM swirl. The main thing about Swirlix is imo the guessing game it brings up. Because of the 3 amazing sweeping sets, you are forced to guess which one it's running and more often than not, you just have to play around Belly Drum, just because it's the most immediately dangerous and if you don't predict it, you might as well lose outright. Swirlix's great natural bulk allows it to live pretty much all of the common priority attacks, except Fake Out + Bullet Punch LO Meditite. Cotton Guard prevents that though, and the sheer number of option Swirlix has allows it to beat every single mon in LC. Protect prevents Fake Out, Sub just does a fuckton and the colorful special movepool lets you choose what you can get walled by and what you can let your team handle.
Overall my biggest boon with Swirlix is the fact, that one wrong guess can lose you the game on the spot.

Gligar
Numerous times I have stated I don't find Gligar broken. I still find it ban-worthy though. 40% usage is simply mind boggling and shows the problem with Gligar. I personally find it very hard to justify not putting Gligar on any given team, as it can fill a load of roles by itself: setup sweeper (arguably the most threatening one after Swirlix), wallbreaker, SR setter, Defogger, physical wall, etc. It also resides at the most important speed tier in LC: 19 speed. Only a handful of unboosted mons outspeed it, so it forces the completely retarded speed ties, be it Gligar vs Gligar, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Ponyta, whatever. A lot of matches get decided by these if only because of the sheer number of them, because 40% teams pack a Gligar and even more pack some other 19 speed mon. From my experience, Gligar vs Gligar is the most common matchup in the whole meta. This is caused by one simple thing. The safest Gligar switchin is Gligar. Yes, there are things that wall Gligar. But more often than not, those mons have to run HP Ice to actually deal with it. If a mon runs that move, you can be damn sure Gligar is the one and only reason to do so. I believe centralizing the metagame as much as forcing pokemon to run a subpar move to deal with just ONE of the mons is not welcome and that Gligar should just be banned because it's too good to use.

I really believe nothing wrong can come from banning these 2 and that the metagame can only improve if teambuilding can be both made harder (by banning Gligar) and given more breathing room (by banning Swirlix)

 

[Wobbyble]

If you really want a replay to showcase how good CG CM Swirlix is, find one where it sweeps while paralyzed.

Okay, I haven't read anything before the 3rd page and I've only read that because Cork told me to earlier.
Swirlix
The ugly cotton candy is simply the most threatening setup sweeper in the meta. Yes, it does have counters, but those can only switch into some of the sets. I think the CG set is the most overall dangerous, because it can boost both its defenses, which means preventing revenge killing, as well as its offense, thanks to CM. Because of how physical the metagame has become, crits are often the only way you can break CGCM swirl. The main thing about Swirlix is imo the guessing game it brings up. Because of the 3 amazing sweeping sets, you are forced to guess which one it's running and more often than not, you just have to play around Belly Drum, just because it's the most immediately dangerous and if you don't predict it, you might as well lose outright. Swirlix's great natural bulk allows it to live pretty much all of the common priority attacks, except Fake Out + Bullet Punch LO Meditite. Cotton Guard prevents that though, and the sheer number of option Swirlix has allows it to beat every single mon in LC. Protect prevents Fake Out, Sub just does a fuckton and the colorful special movepool lets you choose what you can get walled by and what you can let your team handle.
Overall my biggest boon with Swirlix is the fact, that one wrong guess can lose you the game on the spot.
Gligar
Numerous times I have stated I don't find Gligar broken. I still find it ban-worthy though. 40% usage is simply mind boggling and shows the problem with Gligar. I personally find it very hard to justify not putting Gligar on any given team, as it can fill a load of roles by itself: setup sweeper (arguably the most threatening one after Swirlix), wallbreaker, SR setter, Defogger, physical wall, etc. It also resides at the most important speed tier in LC: 19 speed. Only a handful of unboosted mons outspeed it, so it forces the completely retarded speed ties, be it Gligar vs Gligar, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Ponyta, whatever. A lot of matches get decided by these if only because of the sheer number of them, because 40% teams pack a Gligar and even more pack some other 19 speed mon. From my experience, Gligar vs Gligar is the most common matchup in the whole meta. This is caused by one simple thing. The safest Gligar switchin is Gligar. Yes, there are things that wall Gligar. But more often than not, those mons have to run HP Ice to actually deal with it. If a mon runs that move, you can be damn sure Gligar is the one and only reason to do so. I believe centralizing the metagame as much as forcing pokemon to run a subpar move to deal with just ONE of the mons is not welcome and that Gligar should just be banned because it's too good to use.

I really believe nothing wrong can come from banning these 2 and that the metagame can only improve if teambuilding can be both made harder (by banning Gligar) and given more breathing room (by banning Swirlix)

While I don't believe this would be a reason to not ban Gligar, I'm speculating that Meditite will shit on the metagame the instant Gligar leaves.
No Gligar = No Ice Punch = Hooray perfect coverage

 

[Expulso]

If you really want a replay to showcase how good CG CM Swirlix is, find one where it sweeps while paralyzed.


While I don't believe this would be a reason to not ban Gligar, I'm speculating that Meditite will shit on the metagame the instant Gligar leaves.
No Gligar = No Ice Punch = Hooray perfect coverage

Check turn 19; it's not really sweeping at that point, but BD Swirlix could have been taken out through a combination of Cacnea's attack(s) and Mienfoo.

 

[chimp]

If you really want a replay to showcase how good CG CM Swirlix is, find one where it sweeps while paralyzed.


While I don't believe this would be a reason to not ban Gligar, I'm speculating that Meditite will shit on the metagame the instant Gligar leaves.
No Gligar = No Ice Punch = Hooray perfect coverage

The rise of honedge!