well I'll concede that is a fair enough analysis. I'm still in full support of prankster swagger banned, but I do somewhat see the legitimacy on some sets to pseudo phaze with it
Also 55% of Regigigas used Confuse Ray last month. Infact, Regigagas has been using Confuse Ray for years, and nobody has ever had any problem with it whatsoever. Regigigas is awful, even with a "broken" move.Here's a list of non-Prankster users who use confusion moves a significant (5 or more percent) of the time.
Umbreon: Uses Swagger or Confuse Ray 15% of the time.
Zygarde: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Weavile: Uses Swagger 8% of the time.
Quagsire: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Trevenant: Uses Confuse Ray 5.6% of the time.
Crobat: Uses Confuse Ray 10% of the time.
Ninetales: Uses Confuse Ray 11% of the time.
Milotic: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Dusclops: Uses Confuse Ray 12% of the time.
Gourgeist-Super: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Xatu: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Froslass: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Bronzong: Uses Confuse Ray 8.6% of the time.
Lanturn: Uses Confuse Ray 19% of the tine,
Spiritomb: Uses Confuse Ray 15% of the time.
I won't pretend that all those Pokemon are viable in OU, or that 10% is a huge percentage. But this is a ban that will affect every tier, even ones that don't exist yet, and when so many Pokemon will be affected, that 10% adds up.
You're right, Regigigas is a classic example. However, I wanted to only include Pokemon that were at least plausible choices in OU, lest people freak out like they did with the Numel suggestion.Also 55% of Regigigas used Confuse Ray last month. Infact, Regigagas has been using Confuse Ray for years, and nobody has ever had any problem with it whatsoever. Infact, Regigigas is awful, even with a "broken" move.
Well-known strategy in SwagPlay already. It is used on better teams alongside 3-4 swagplayers and Mega sweeper as a tertiary (did i use da rite term) win condition.You're right, Regigigas is a classic example. However, I wanted to only include Pokemon that were at least plausible choices in OU, lest people freak out like they did with the Numel suggestion.
And while I've never tried this, Swagger/Flatter could pair well with Ditto. It's a risky strategy, but Ditto becomes a lot scarier when it copies a physical sweeper at +2.
Sorry, but you're clueless. "Competitive" encompasses much more than just what's good. Swagger + thunder wave is strong as fuck, that's why this thread exists. That does not make it competitive.How can people say swagger is uncompetitive when its one of the most competitive moves. It works in tandem with many things like with sub and swagger combo. Also having ditto as a plan b if swagger fails to KO the boosted pokemon attack then ditto gains the boost and sweeps. That sounds like a genious strategy to me. Swagger and foul play have great synergy as well to call swagger uncompetitive only shows how stupid you guys really are at playing pokemon.
That's like saying gokus spirit bomb is uncompetitive because it takes too much time to prepare the attack but it gets the job done anyways.
If you guys want to ban something so badly and I know you do let's find middle ground here and only allow one prankster pokemon per team. Also confusion clause is here to stay its part of pokemon since red version. There are plenty of ways to beat it which is why it has never been banner before. Wise up everyone.
I'd like to remind you that the banning discussion is on whether or not it is too luck based, not whether or not it has counters or if it. We are not looking to ban it for being broken or under the overcentralization of the metagame clause. In the OP, the phrase "make games entirely luck reliant" is used. Please make an argument related to luck reliance and whether or not Swagger should be banned as a result.Sorry, but you're clueless. "Competitive" encompasses much more than just what's good. Swagger + thunder wave is strong as fuck, that's why this thread exists. That does not make it competitive.
Often times, the most powerful things are very uncompetitive, in a similar vein to "swag play" and things like mega lucario. Mega kangaskhan is powerful, but that does not make it competitive. When something reaches a point to where it is too difficult to counter, it is "broken." This is uncompetitive as it allows one player to completely dominate the game with little input from their side. "Competitive" is not steamrolling your opponent with pure power of your strategy; rather, it is having an even playing field for players to COMPETE on. Swag play prevents interaction between opponents, resulting not in competition, but an unhealthy environment for the game, which makes the gameplay stale and makes people not want to play.
Swagplay stops your opponent from being able to play the game. It always goes first and the only way to counter it is by abusing prankster yourself. Therefore it has no place in the OU metagame, in terms of trying to create the most balanced and most fair kind of metagame.
There really is no argument to be made in terms of luck. You paralyze, and then confuse a pokemon. It must pass a 50/50 check in order to "move," and then it must pass another 50/50 check to determine whether it hits itself when it moves or not. That is obviously luck based, hence why I didn't take that route in order to argue my point.I'd like to remind you that the banning discussion is on whether or not it is too luck based, not whether or not it has counters or if it. We are not looking to ban it for being broken or under the overcentralization of the metagame clause. In the OP, the phrase "make games entirely luck reliant" is used. Please make an argument related to luck reliance and whether or not Swagger should be banned as a result.
Removal of agency, although annoying, is a part of life in Pokemon. Paralysis, confusion, and freezing are three examples of where a player's agency is removed. Therefore, removal of agency, by itself, is not a sufficient argument.
I present my previous anti-ban argument and rebuttals: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagplay-evaluating-potential-bans.3500620/page-29#post-5263118
I await your response!
There are attacks that outright sleep the opponent, and they've existed since before the Overcoat/Grass type buff (Admittedly, this is somewhat contained in the Sleep Clause to stop this from destroying a team entirely, but this is far more potent than confusion). Also, similar arguments can be levied against Serene Grace abusers with ParaFlinch, since that is also a very easy removal of agency, which results in a 70% chance at any turn to not move but that is currently not up for discussion as being too luck-based, it is instead a strategy that wins by creating a situation where the opponent doesn't get a turn.There really is no argument to be made in terms of luck. You paralyze, and then confuse a pokemon. It must pass a 50/50 check in order to "move," and then it must pass another 50/50 check to determine whether it hits itself when it moves or not. That is obviously luck based, hence why I didn't take that route in order to argue my point.
Removal of agency is a good point, and while it is a part of pokemon, it should not be so easily done like swag play is. Thunder wave should not have perfect accuracy. Even if it had will o wisp's accuracy, it would still be infinitely stronger. The ability to completely immobilize an opponent's pokemon through luck based strategies is unfair and uncompetitive. Notice how a move that just outright freezes the opponent doesn't exist. Swagger + thunder wave is not the same as getting frozen off of a 10% chance from ice beam. It is easily accomplished, and makes the game luck based while being an easily recreated situation, unlike an offhand freeze or confusion from ice beam or hurricane, respectably.
Tl;dr - easy removal of agency has no place in the game. It creates a degenerate game state where players win by creating a situation where their opponent doesn't get a turn, which is uncompetitive in the purest sense.
Dynamic punch + no guard does not promote an unhealthy game state. It allows for interactivity between players, unlike swagplay. Also, it only results in confusion, which is not deserving of a ban by itself. Confusion in tandem with paralysis, is vastly different though. Your speed is halved, you must pass a 50/50 check just to move, and another 50/50 check to determine whether you hit yourself or your opponent. How is that strategic in any way, and how does it promote competitiveness?You can't ban something just because it is annoying. It's not overcentralizing and definitely not limiting to choices. It can be played around and even taken advantage of due to the predictability.
Luck is ingrained into the game. The next thing you'll want to do is complex ban No Guard + Dynamicpunch. What a joke. Why even is this strategy under scrutiny?
Minor correction: 25/75 check to move and 25% speed.Dynamic punch + no guard does not promote an unhealthy game state. It allows for interactivity between players, unlike swagplay. Also, it only results in confusion, which is not deserving of a ban by itself. Confusion in tandem with paralysis, is vastly different though. Your speed is halved, you must pass a 50/50 check just to move, and another 50/50 check to determine whether you hit yourself or your opponent. How is that strategic in any way, and how does it promote competitiveness?
Paraflinch falls into the same category of this strategy, and should be removed as well. There should be no way to create a situation where your opponent is allowed any less than a 50/50 chance at their turn. While paraflinch and swag play are easily recreated, and are viable "strategies" but are bad for a competitive environment. I suppose I just have a problem with wins that stem from not outplaying your opponent, but rather create a situation where the opponent is simply not allowed to play, and is at times even punished for finally being allowed to pass the RNG for paralysis.There are attacks that outright sleep the opponent, and they've existed since before the Overcoat/Grass type buff (Admittedly, this is somewhat contained in the Sleep Clause to stop this from destroying a team entirely, but this is far more potent than confusion). Also, similar arguments can be levied against Serene Grace abusers with ParaFlinch, since that is also a very easy removal of agency, which results in a 70% chance at any turn to not move but that is currently not up for discussion as being too luck-based, it is instead a strategy that wins by creating a situation where the opponent doesn't get a turn.
At some point in time, a method's reliability at taking away enemy turns makes it stop being "hax" and actually turn into a legitimate strategy. I maintain that the combination of Substitute + confusion is reliable enough to jump this border. At the same time, it's not nearly as effective Spore spamming, so it doesn't overcentralize the metagame and doesn't need a rule to limit its effectiveness.
I really admire the effort you've put into your analysis, but it is slightly missing the point. Averages do not exist in real life - no individual family has 2.4 children and the same applies here. Put simply, you cannot predict the number of turns you will lose in any given situation, and prediction is the core of what makes competitive Pokemon interesting, so removing the ability to predict is destroying the essence of the game.When against a SwagPlayer, you need to evaluate from the perspective that, yes, I will likely lose 1.125 turns to Swagger when the SwagPlayer comes out. All this means is that you need to do more damage to the SwagPlayer than they can do in 1.125 turns to you to win, on average.
And this is where the slippery slope begins. First we shout outrage for a Confusion, then soon after it is Paraflinch Strategies, and next it is Paralysis all together. Banning one thing only leads to banning another. The diversity of Pokemon is what makes the game fun. RNG is part of the game. Removing that is removing a key component of the game. It brings unpredictability and excitement to matches. The SwagPlay team may think they are winning, until all of a sudden a Priority Attack like Extreme Speed hits two turns in a row, and then they break free of Confusion. A battle such as that can turn at any given moment, and shouldn't be lamented but enthralled by. I have already given many checks and counters to this strategy. If people just branch out from the same 43 or whatever Pokemon that rest in OU, and look for ways to get around the strategy, the metagame could become extremely diverse and exciting.Paraflinch falls into the same category of this strategy, and should be removed as well. There should be no way to create a situation where your opponent is allowed any less than a 50/50 chance at their turn. While paraflinch and swag play are easily recreated, and are viable "strategies" but are bad for a competitive environment. I suppose I just have a problem with wins that stem from not outplaying your opponent, but rather create a situation where the opponent is simply not allowed to play, and is at times even punished for finally being allowed to pass the RNG for paralysis.
As soon as people start designating things as "broken" is when the metagame ceases to become a living and evolving being, and just a dull blend of the same old status quo. That threat has never been a true issue, and neither is SwagPlay if people are just willing to look past their tunnel vision and try to use more Pokemon. If we let the metagame evolve on its own, very reliable counters and counter strategies will begin appearing. But don't stifle this evolution with unnecessary banning and complaining.I think we should ban Confusion-inducing moves. Outrage and Petal Dance (and other moves like them) are fine, since they are side effects of some very devastating moves, and balances out the benefits of those moves. But Swagger and Foul Play is ridiculous. Not impossible to get through, but it's frustrating sometimes. Now Cosmic Power + Roost/Moonlight/Rest + Magic Guard + Stored Power. Now THAT'S broken.
We've been over this a million times! Swagplay is annoying, but its a lot more than that, its unhealthy. The small chance that you can win a match just from luck is not productive because it destabilizes the idea that this is a skill based meta game.You can't ban something just because it is annoying. It's not overcentralizing and definitely not limiting to choices. It can be played around and even taken advantage of due to the predictability.
Luck is ingrained into the game. The next thing you'll want to do is complex ban No Guard + Dynamicpunch. What a joke. Why even is this strategy under scrutiny?
This I disagree with because there are easy, realistic ways for your opponent to avoid being paraflinched. Also, even if one pokemon is taken down, both paraflinchers can be pretty reliably revenge killed. Swagplay has neither of those consParaflinch falls into the same category of this strategy, and should be removed as well. There should be no way to create a situation where your opponent is allowed any less than a 50/50 chance at their turn. While paraflinch and swag play are easily recreated, and are viable "strategies" but are bad for a competitive environment. I suppose I just have a problem with wins that stem from not outplaying your opponent, but rather create a situation where the opponent is simply not allowed to play, and is at times even punished for finally being allowed to pass the RNG for paralysis.
That's a consistent perspective. I understand your points.Paraflinch falls into the same category of this strategy, and should be removed as well. There should be no way to create a situation where your opponent is allowed any less than a 50/50 chance at their turn. While paraflinch and swag play are easily recreated, and are viable "strategies" but are bad for a competitive environment. I suppose I just have a problem with wins that stem from not outplaying your opponent, but rather create a situation where the opponent is simply not allowed to play, and is at times even punished for finally being allowed to pass the RNG for paralysis.
You're right that you cannot predict the number of confusion turns. I don't believe that SwagPlay eliminates prediction from the game, though. Most SwagPlay users follow the formula (or very close to it). If anything, this makes them very predictable. That said, because of the mechanics, there's always the chance that you can lose an insane amount of turns in a row, but I don't think it's common enough if you're trying to counter the strategy effectively.I really admire the effort you've put into your analysis, but it is slightly missing the point. Averages do not exist in real life - no individual family has 2.4 children and the same applies here. Put simply, you cannot predict the number of turns you will lose in any given situation, and prediction is the core of what makes competitive Pokemon interesting, so removing the ability to predict is destroying the essence of the game.
There is another flaw with this approach. One widely perceived problem with swagplay is that it allows a bad player a significant chance to beat a much better player which he'd have no chance against if he played in any other way. Even if he is still going against the statistics of luck, that still may be preferable to going against the statistics of skill.
TL;DR: Pokemon is not just raw number-crunching, and cannot be analysed as such.
However, ladders are indeed number crunching of probabilities. The players with the highest scores are those who tend to win, rather than those that will always win against players with lower scores. In tournaments, likewise, we have matches were the best among a number of battles is the winner. If the fact that a better player sometimes loses were not admissible or unexistent, there would be no need to do 2/3 matches.I really admire the effort you've put into your analysis, but it is slightly missing the point. Averages do not exist in real life - no individual family has 2.4 children and the same applies here. Put simply, you cannot predict the number of turns you will lose in any given situation, and prediction is the core of what makes competitive Pokemon interesting, so removing the ability to predict is destroying the essence of the game.
There is another flaw with this approach. One widely perceived problem with swagplay is that it allows a bad player a significant chance to beat a much better player which he'd have no chance against if he played in any other way. Even if he is still going against the statistics of luck, that still may be preferable to going against the statistics of skill, and so it enables players to get wins they just don't deserve.
TL;DR: Pokemon is not just raw number-crunching, and cannot be analysed as such.
I agree that the slippery slope is an insufficient argument for the anti-ban crew.We've been over this a million times! Swagplay is annoying, but its a lot more than that, its unhealthy. The small chance that you can win a match just from luck is not productive because it destabilizes the idea that this is a skill based meta game.
Also, that slippery slope idea has been brought up every ban discussion so far, and its NEVER affected the ban.
Things like crits and missing are fine because the community agrees those are part of the game and are acceptable variations of the skill centrality. Also, they're part of the game mechanics, and we won't change those for any reason.
Dynamic Punch isn't a problem either because there are easy ways to avoid playing by your opponent's rules of confusion. Priority swagger has no such avoidance techniques, so it forces people to flip a coin on whether they get to move or not, and as such is too luck dependent to be considered allowable.