However losing Latias to Pursuit isn't exactly optimal. Especially when said Pursuit user is Aegislash who walls Lucario without a Dark type move and KOs with Sacred Sword.
Electric moves are not easy to wall at all, especially when paired with Fire STAB. Out of the Pokemon that resist or are immune to Electric moves, only Garchomp, Latios, and Latias, resist both, and Garchomp can easily be burned by WoW and neutered, a move that all Fire-types can learn. So, you only have Latios and Latias that you can't threaten without coverage moves, two Pokemon that check a Fire / Water CAP as well. And if you don't believe me that an offensive Fire-type will carry Will-O-Wisp, look no further than Mega Charizard X, which takes advantage of the pressure the DD set applies to burn some of its usual switch-ins, such as Azumarill, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon.DarkSlay said:To address Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, I personally don't see a Flying resist as nearly as mandatory as choosing a type that makes it offensively better against Ground-types. Steel-type moves are very predictable, and Electric moves are easy to wall. Giving Garchomp a free switch-in will give this core nightmares, for example. I'd much rather have the firepower to take on all of our proposed threats offensively than worry about tanking hits from priority users. If we're going to worry about assigning CAP 18 a defensive role (something we've established that we don't want), we can designate that role to a fourth member of the team. Focusing too much of CAP 18's weaknesses and resistances loses focus on the offensive nature of the project, which isn't really wanted. Keep that in mind!
Mega Charizard Y manages just fine with Latias as a partner, and it is 4x SR weak, so i don't see how a CAP that is only 2x weak to SR wouldn't be fine with Defog support from Latias.Deck Knight said:I also think requiring a Stealth Rock weakness is foolish when your proposed Defogger is Pursuit weak in general and Bisharp food specifically. Lucario beats Bisharp, but Bisharp neutralizes Latias.
Poison / Steel has bad offensive STABs, which we can't afford. We need good offensive STABs so that the CAP doesn't have to spend most of its moveset for coverage, and we need super effective STABs for some big threats to our core that can't be OHKOed by coverage moves, such as Azumarill and Aegislash.Korski said:The interesting thing about Lucario and Latias is that they already mesh well typing-wise and can resist almost any kind of attack, which is the stuff good cores are made of (between the two of them they resist every attacking type except Fairy, Flying, and Ghost). The big problem, however, is that Lucario's statistical frailness and reliance on Life Orb means it can't reasonably participate in tanking hits that force Latias out, specifically Dragon and Ice attacks, unlike Latias, who can take Fighting, Ground, and Fire attacks very well and Recover off the damage. What I am proposing is, instead of interweaving a brand new set of weaknesses and resistances into this already decently stable core, we give the CAP a typing that shares many of Lucario's resistances, or in other words create a "secondary Lucario" via typing that can actually perform the duties of covering Latias's weaknesses. Having Latias and CAP switch around into attacks while softening up the opponent is going to make Lucario's sweeping job much easier. Don't say you didn't see this coming, but I am proposing Poison/Steel as the typing for this CAP. Here's the breakdown:
4x: Ground
2x: Fire
1x: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Psychic, Water
1/2x: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
1/4x: Bug, Fairy, Grass
0x: Poison
Between only Latias and CAP, every type is resisted except Dark and Ghost. CAP would not only resist Bug, Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks, it would even resist every attack that hits Latias neutrally. With the exception of Dark and Ghost, Latias would be able to do the same for CAP. Lucario resists Dark and gets an Attack boost from it, so that's his end of the deal. Ghost is the only unresisted type, but that's a tough type to resist these days (and at the very least this typing isn't weak to it). Crucially, a Poison/Steel CAP can not only take the lead in soaking up Ice and Dragon attacks aimed at Latias, it can also take Fairy and Flying attacks, which Lucario can't do. It can take the chip damage from U-turn for Lucario as the opponent switches in a check or counter, removing Luke from a vulnerable position. It can relieve Lucario of Scizor-tanking duties as well. Yes, this typing doubles up on Ground and Fire weaknesses, but between Levitate and special bulk, Latias can take just about any of these attacks in stride (Mold Breaker Excadrill is a notable exception).
Offensively (and defensively, for that matter), this typing fills the Fairy-crushing role this core desperately needs. CAP can run the Steel-STAB Lucario has no room for and keep 3 whole moveslots open for potential coverage or support moves (you don't need both STABs with this typing). I mention coverage especially because Poison/Steel is sadly neutral to both of Aegislash's typical attacks and can't touch it back with STAB alone. Fortunately there are lots of steps left to better deal with the undead sword monster. Obviously, no single typing combination can do everything we need this CAP to do for the core, but I think Poison/Steel gets us off to a solid start when considering what sort of backbone we need to support this core.
I don't see how Fairy-type helps us beat any of those mentioned threats. Aegislash walks all over us (yes, even if its Steel-type STAB is only neutral). Fairies aren't particularly helpful against other Fairies or Ground-types. We aren't resisting anything that we've discussed previously. Sure, Fairies are immune to Dragons. But please link me to one post in the past that recommended our core should fear Dragon-types. I think you will be hard pressed to find anything of substance. I understand that Fairy / Fire is great offensively, but remember that typings have an inherent sense of defensive duty. And unless we make a Pokemon with stacked defenses and good speed, it's not going to beat these threats one-on-one OR help our core in a meaningful way. We can always add Fairy-coverage later without having STAB on it.Reading through the posts so far, I think it is pretty clear that it is Aegislash, Fairies, and some other things, such as some Ground types that give our existing core members trouble. Now, obviously we probably will not be able to beat every Pokemon that gives the others trouble, and nor should we.