Other Stall

[MagikaripIsOP]

How does M-Venusaur, Heatran, Skarmory, Chansey, Quagsire, and cm Reuniclus for stall vs stall sound? (I'm playing pokebattle and showdown)

 

[Kay [Old]]

Quagsire handles the majority of set-up sweepers better than Clefable does. Clefable can be 2HKO'd by Mega Tyranitar's Stone Edge, Mega Charizard-X's Flare Blitz, SD Aegislash & Bisharp's Iron Head, Scizor's Bullet Punch. All very common and better dealt with by Quag. There are very few common set up sweepers better dealt with by Clefable.

Hmm, perhaps. Charizard's the only one who gives me trouble, however, and I feel Clefable does a better job supporting the team with Wishpassing.

Btw, reached 1600 after one day with Chansey-Clefable-Skarm-Heatran-Megasaur...and Salamence. Salamence has done a surprisingly good job. I've been seeking a physical dragon for the Fairy-Steel-Dragon type combination, and while I tried Zygarde for a while, Salamence has been more useful with a Roost/Wish/Draco Meteor/Earthquake set. It functions as a backup wishpasser which eases the strain on Clefable, acts as a general physical check with intimidate, and can hit hard when the time comes. Not really sure on the EV spread, especially since I use both a physical and special move ( tried Flamethrower at first, but that leaves my team way too vulnerable to Heatran for my taste).

 

[ilovekirby12]

luditrolol

 

[Red Cat]

As Ajwf pointed out in his post, the drawback with full clerics is that they will rarely be able to get off both moves in one sitting if the opponent is any good. The drawback with partial clerics is that you have to use two Pokemon with those moves when Wish and Heal Bell don't get great distribution. I personally use Chansey as a full cleric because there are so many offensive threats to counter that there is just no room for using sub-optimal Pokemon for utility purposes. I have tried Sylveon as a full cleric before, but I switched to Chansey once Manaphy and Landorus-I started sweeping my teams. Using Psychic types as partial clerics is a bad idea in my opinion because of all of the Ghost and Dark type moves around as well as U-turn. I think Mega Latias is going to be underwhelming in this regard because it really doesn't counter many of the top offensive threats (Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Charizard-X, Azumarill, etc.) As for Healing Wish, I would never use it on a stall team because I think it is counterproductive to sac a Pokemon for a one-time heal when the point of stall Pokemon is to stay alive.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

SEMI-STALL
(Part of a healthy breakfast)

Stall is great. It wears down opposing pokemon like nothing else, making them take slow damage over a fair number of turns while your pokemon continually get healed up and keep the fight going. Now, wouldn't it be great if after wearing teams down within a few inches of their lives and creating a win condition for basically every offensive team ever, you could bring a potent sweeper like Talonflame, Scizor, or Dragonite and proceed to completely obliterate their weakened team?

Well, now you can!

Introducing Semi-Stall. Essentially, you create a fully functional stall team in four or five (usually five) slots of your party. These five slots play like a six pokemon stall team, laying hazards, having amazing synergy, laughing at set up sweepers, and wearing the opponent's team down. Except unlike full stall, where you're focusing on wearing your opponent's team fully down, you focus on wearing certain pokemon down, getting pokemon to certain levels of health or running certain moves out of pp, giving you what's called a win condition. That's where the last member of your team comes in: you create a win condition for a sweeper, and then let that sweeper sweep.

"Wait... if this is as amazing as it sounds, why doesn't everyone use semi-stall?"

Well, that's where things get a little tough. Semi-stall is amazing with a well built team, but actually building a semi-stall team that won't crack under pressure- essentially building a five pokemon stall team- is something that's incredibly difficult to do. Not impossible, just rather difficult. Additionally, since one of the main perks of semi-stall— the fact that your sweeper almost always gets at least stealth rocks, and perhaps a layer of spikes to work with— has been severely hampered by defog, building a successful semi-stall team is harder than ever (indeed spikes, once a hallmark of stall, are now mostly seen on heavy offense teams based around stuff like DeoSharp).

Erm, yup.

On another note...

So I wanted to go over a few things as I continued to piece together a team, mostly for my own reference, but maybe something good will come of this. Specifically, I want to dedicated this post a bit to clerics and theory to cleric roles and synergy with the team. This is specifically because of my own struggles to find clerics as good, original entities serving a constructive purpose on a stall team.

A cleric is a pretty necessary role to a stall team. At the very minimum, it clears statuses and performs minor support tasts (threatens destiny bonds? Has healing wish? Perhaps it is a screen setter... clerics generally have some offhand niche outside of the first). So, my basic definition overriding any cleric is a support mon with the intent and purpose of healing members of a team. BUT in modern stall, I'd like to coin a phrase: Full clerics. This is only for their distinction of being able to pass wishes along side of curing status conditions. Every stall has a cleric, and most generally have a full cleric right now.

"Full Clerics" and their benefits.
But, in OU, there are probably three usable full clerics. Chansey(Or Blissey if your knock off prediction is inferior/really get double switched on), Sylveon and Togekiss are really the only three pokemon with both a healing move and status remover VIABLE in OU. Last generation, Vaporeon was in this discussion as well, and Umbreon can still have a spot here if need be. There are definitely some positive sides to this. Having experimented with both, the ability to have a full cleric on one pokemon makes finding your roles in battle a little easier. It comes out, doesn't take as many switches, and leaves only one pokemon on your team dedicated to it.

Negatives of "Full Clerics"
However, this style of clerics is not without its downfall. The main issue comes from the amount of moveslots used. Chansey actually uses three moveslots (Softboil/Wish/HealBell) for this job (to stop it from losing momentum) and Sylveon is best off using three (Protect>Softboil in this case). This, of course, severly limits coverage and can give these pokemon switch-in problems (Sylveon) or allow the opponent free turns (Chansey). Togekiss is an odd niche of being scary enough that it might only carry 1,2 or 3 support moves and any number of attacks due to the sets it runs, allowing it to circumvent this issue. The second issue is the "Eggs in one basket" deal. You lose your cleric, you've lost most of your healing capacities besides self help, which can be shaky given that not all stall members have their own form of reliable recovery. Having one cleric means you have only a few pokemon on the opposing team you can come in on to begin with as well as meaning the opponent only has to single out one pokemon to target.

The usage of "partial" clerics
The other cleric style is less used, almost unused. Pokemon like Latias, Gardevoir, Jirachi, Lanturn, Togekiss (The multi set thing), Vaporeon, Celebi and others all have parts of the whole of a cleric's responsibility. Pokemon like Latias, along with passing wishes, can defog and serve as a healing wish candidate (or just nuke). Gardevoir has destiny bond, Healing wish, Heal bell, wish and some other support moves along with the Hyper Voice spam. It has all the options, but never runs full cleric (or shouldn't... really isn't it's best set). Even Vaporeon can phaze while wishing and celebi sets rocks. These versatile pokemon are important to note for a few reasons. First, they have upside not provided by the full clerics. They are harder to nail down and eliminate, they only run what the team needs, and they make it harder for the enemy to come in on them.

The benefits of these partial clerics
There are other benefits to this. Even the fact that two semi-cleric pokemon may be run can be beneficial, though it does certainly have drawbacks. The first major benefit is that two clerics such as Lanturn/Latias, when paired, work incredibly well covering each other's weaknesses. This means that they have more switches and one can produce a switch for the other to work with. The second benefit is the element of surprise. Most people don't expect these styles of clerics because they aren't really seen. Lastly, the value of not losing a full cleric ability after losing one cleric cannot be overlooked. The longevity of a cleric and it's sheer responsibility to a team cannot be underestimated.

The drawbacks of partial clerics
The drawbacks, of course, are able to be seen. First, this means you have TWO slots reserved for some cleric duties. This isn't terribly bad because they have space to do other things, but it can still be a role strain on teambuilding. Secondly, the more obvious issue. It can take twice as long for two clerics to do the job of one, given the extra switch. However, if you don't need both wish/healBell/Support moves all at the same time, these do have benefits in keeping some targets out.

Some theory on clerics: Bulk vs Pressure
So now that we've briefly described the two broad cleric archetypes, let's talk about how this means anything. For a while, chansey was accepted as a great/best cleric because it caught tons of special attacks and healed off with ease. However, it allowed many threats in. Sylveon could stop many threats from coming in, but is far more frail than chansey and can struggle to get in. This has been an issue in teambuilding. The issue with chansey is it's lack of outside PRESSURE where Sylveon lacks BULK.

Both are key aspects of a game in general, but it should be noted that lacking pressure on stall is much more forgivable. You generally are a bit behind and rely on predictions if you are in a bit of a pinch to catch up. But in all honesty, Chansey has become so expected on stall and conkeldurr so common, even it's own bulk can be questioned by a fight type which chansey can't poison and whom can threaten most switch ins.

Bulk, however, is needed for all but the most synergistic stall teams. So lacking this is an issue, for sure. Sylveon's lack of bulk is damning, generally, but it has something only achievable otherwise by the half-clerics: Offensive presence/utility. Since the cleric has to take Kyurem generally, remember that Sylveon's hyper voice hits through subs and does this quite well. It also deters dragon spam.

Semi-clerics and their own set usages
For a true idea of the capacity of the semi-clerics, let's look at Latias, who is the most common of that group used as a cleric/support mon. Generally, a set with Psyshock, Wish, surf and defog is not only dangerous to in the ability to pressure and clear hazards, it also serves as a pokemon that both comes in easily and pressures easily to get wishes off to key allies, generally forcing a switch as it wishes, at least for the first time. Latias doesn't lack bulk or power, it lacks the movepool (Heal bell) and HP stat that prevent it from becoming a more premier offensive cleric.

Similarly, Jirachi is in an even cooler position. It's best set I've seen is Wish, U-turn, stealth rocks, Iron head. After wishing, it can slow turn out into another opponent, easing prediction and possibly gaining momentum back. This is also cool because you get to know ahead of time if you can pass a wish to a weakened pokemon safely. It does have healing wish and some psychic stabs to threaten if needed, but Jirachi's own typing is a personal favorite as it lessens the pressure on other users to use Heal bell. Jirachi's issue is generally consider its added weaknesses this generation, as well as the limits of 100/100/100 bulk as a stall mon. That, as well as a slightly limiting cleric movepool, may have made people overlook jirachi.

Cleric Synergy
Lastly, Cleric synergy. While Synergy on any part of the team is important, synergy with the cleric is the most important synergy. Why do you think the best clerics have been incredibly bulky or possessing a really fantastic defensive typing? It allows them to better pass if the opponent can't safely bring in something to hit the pokemon you want to wish pass to.

Basically, the whole key is to point out on the stall team who will need the cleric the most and then make sure their weaknesses do not overlap much. Pokemon such as heatran, Blastoise, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Aggron and others all lack reliable recovery and either rely on resttalk or wish for their HP. This means that if you have a heatran, Sylveon is technically a fantastic partner given Heatran covering Sylveon's weaknesses perfectly and Sylveon resisting fighting easily. It is more important for the cleric to have a resist to the target's typing than the target have a resist to Sylveon's typing as not allowing the target that can finish off your poke in the first place is huge. People play against the pokemon on the field for the most part. A Cleric's dedicated counters/checks are the best ones to play off of to get a wish passed. Unfortunately, with pokemon like chansey, who just has sheer bulk, this can be difficult. In Chansey's case, it is best to make sure the target and chansey simply do not overlap weaknesses given that the opponent can bring in any pokemon he needs vs chansey.

Right now, I'm looking into a few clerics in the full-cleric section, but I think that once mega latias arrives, the half clerics could really work, as a healbeller is always nice and Latias could wish pass as it will probably draw many specific threats in. Any opinions on some underrated clerics/Cleric ideas? I'm wondering if anyone runs healing wish on stall as a legitimate way to replenish something like Mega Venusaur and how it works if someone has been doing so.

Tl; rea (too long; read everything anyway).
You don't really mention the ability of semi-clerics to fit into other playstyles. I guess this isn't really the thread, but it's nice to note that Heavy offense and Bulky Offense really appreciate a nice offensive heal bell user, keeping stuff like Burns off of their Landoruses and Terrakions, and making sure their Latiases aren't toxiced for too long.

Also, about the cleric synergy section: you'd actually be surprised how much you can get around the issue. If you've ever played the old team IR: The Art of Rain Stall from the 5th gen team archives, you should try it out (although it's a bit late for early BW lol). One of the things that surprised me most about the team was Chansey's amazing ability to reliably pass to Ferrothorn, purely because of the pressure that Chansey *might* pass to Dragonite or Tentacruel.

 

[Ajwf]

Healing wish is interesting, but SansNickel pointed out something interesting in a recent match I was playing. Stall's end goal is to have only the pokemon it needed to wall the remainder of the opponent's team. While this sounds obvious, I never really thought of it that way. My objective is always "To slay the opponent's team through slowly wearing them down and capitalizing on misplays". But the idea that Stall can get rid of any pokemon not needed to finish the match is definitely true, and this idea instantly gives Healing Wish an incredibly strong niche.

Because some pokemon get injured beyond repair and to the point that wish passing simply isn't possible any more, when one of these pokemon is absolutely crucial to your wincon (Skarm to take pinsir-mega is a common one, as is Heatran to take talonflame, Mega Venusaur to take Conkeldurr), Healing Wish is an absolute god send. Sacrificing a cleric to win the game isn't all that much a loss in my opinion. And you take entry hazard damage AFTER rebuilding your full health and removing the status, meaning even pokemon at incredibly small amounts of health can be fully revitalized.

As for not mentioning the other playstyles, I don't have a ton of experience outside of stall.

 

[ssjjynx]

Not sure if this has come up yet but, stall megazard x with 248 hp evs 32 atk evs 188 spdef evs and 40 spd evs. Dragon claw, roost, will-o-wisp, and earthquake as its moves. This pretty much the exact same set Pokeaimmd made a video of, and i've been trying it out, and it works extremely well. The only pokes it needs to watch out for are ones like hippowdon, gliscor, and mega pinsir, but all of those can be dealt with minor support from rotom-w.

 

[56k]

I'm leaning towards dropping the Heatran. I was using him in the past because he was a Genesect and Talonflame counter rolled up into one, but with Genesect gone and plenty of viable counters to Talonflame out there, I'm less inclined to use this guy. Don't get me wrong, he's a great pokemon and I will still use him sometimes, but I've been forced out by one two many voltturn->landorus and I also feel like the water weakness is just too much.

Basically, I want to "blank slate" the whole stall idea and get away from the idea that megasaur, heatran, chansey, quagsire, and skarm are mandatory. Stall has gotten much better recently with key bans, and more people play it now, so therefore offensive teams are changing. Many people are loading up with surprising superpowers and earthquake and HP ground to smash heatran, extrasensory on greninja for megasaur, there are unpredictable aegislashes, and pokemon that can physically break through quagsire and skarm to get around the popular stall walls we're using. Not to mention the problems we're all having with knock off and Defiant pokemon. The meta has adapted and I suggest a deconstruction of what we're trying to do as stall players.

What are the minimum requirements for a stall team to be successful? I put forward merely the following:
-Hazard control -> being able to switch as much as possible
-Status control -> doing passive damage to the opponent for every turn you stall
-Recovery -> lengthening the amount of turns in a match to add up chip damage

No mention of "countering top OU threats", no mention of Heal Bell, no mention of Unaware. Just three basic ideas that all stall teams need to be successful. Other types of teams don't have these focuses. Hyper offense teams won't really care if spikes are on their side of the field and their hazard setter is only meant to be used once. Balanced teams probably won't have any recovery except a wish passer. They have other key focuses to be successful, such as wallbreaking and speed.

Secondly, the goal is to knock out all of the opponents pokemon while having at least one of your own left.

"Have to sac something" is part of the game and no matter how well built ANY type of team is, you are going to have to sac pokemon to prevent the opponent from setting up. Antar has said that if PokemonShowdown's rankings were working correctly, and if people continued playing on their high-ranked alts instead of making new ones, then everyone would eventually have a 1:1 win ratio. Obviously in such an environment, playing equally skilled players with their own focused teams, it's impossible to make the ultimate stall team that walls the metagame and 6-0 stalls out the opponent. At the end of the match your pokemon are going to be broken, crippled, unable to switch in twice because of hazards, burned, fainted, and hoping turn2 protect works. Half of them were sacced to finally kill off a +2 Life Orb sweeper, but you did it, you held on by the skin of your teeth and stalled for the win. Even the absolute best stall teams are going to be saccing things and "just barely" stalling out the best offensive teams.

With that in mind, maybe skarmory is not necessary to counter pinsir. Toxic and protect stalling could work just as well, but you might have to sac something to get the toxic in and sac another thing that is wearing a rocky helmet. Hopefully near the end of the game when the pinsir player has gotten overconfident.

Maybe quagsire is not necessary for countering bulky boosters; a fast taunt or encore or a destiny bond could work too. Toxic. Your own booster. Or ditto.

Maybe chansey is not necessary as a mixed wall; it won't need to pass wishes if the team can take care of itself, and there are plenty of ways to manage status including rest, other pokemon with heal bell/aromatherapy, and abilities.

All of the staples like megavenusaur, megascizor, heatran, hippowdon, etc are great and I think we should continue using them.

But goal is to simply stay within the confines of "stall" strategy: passive damage, multiple switch opportunities, recovery, and utility moves like leech seed. You can't wall everything from pinsir to houndoom.

If offense is evolving then we need to evolve too. Consider the following pokemon on your next stall team: Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Deoxys-D, Whimsicott, Zapdos, Hydreigon, Latios, Latias, Trevanent, Gourgeist, Tyranitar, Alakazam, Talonflame, Landorus-T, Sylveon, Azumarril, Gyarados, Klefki, Slowbro, Conkeldur. Use their support/defensive/sustain builds and experiment with a few things. Perhaps build a team with 5 stallers and one offensive. The nature of stall is in no way conclusive and there's more than one way to accomplish the strategy.

 

[TURBODERP]

Not sure if this has come up yet but, stall megazard x with 248 hp evs 32 atk evs 188 spdef evs and 40 spd evs. Dragon claw, roost, will-o-wisp, and earthquake as its moves. This pretty much the exact same set Pokeaimmd made a video of, and i've been trying it out, and it works extremely well. The only pokes it needs to watch out for are ones like hippowdon, gliscor, and mega pinsir, but all of those can be dealt with minor support from rotom-w.

Any reason why those specific EV's?

 

[Ajwf]

56k

So, you're looking for good substitutes, stall teams that break the mold... that kind of thing. While I did extensive research and came out with a stall team that does pretty good vs the metagame (and only uses Skarm/Quagsire due to the other pokemon), there are some substitutes you can fill in at any time.

Heatran mainly takes Talonflame anymore. His role vs Latios is even restricted vs top threats. Charizard-Y is another one generally countered. Thundurus-i isn't going to do much even with Super power, so I would consider it one in the same. Taking on defensive threats with ferrothorn, Skarmory and some other threats.

But really, a good replacement to take Talonflame is rotom-wash, Zapdos, Rotom-heat, and rhydon.

For Charizard-Y, Goodra, Gyarados, Latias, AV raikou and Snorlax are all good substitutes.

Thundy is a bit tougher, but: Claydol, Hippowdon, Sylveon, Clefable, Porygon2, Nidoqueen are some pretty good subs. Nido is only a check, though.

With Skarmory, the biggest threat it goes after is pinsir-mega. Again, the same threats generally for Talonflame reoccur, but:

Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Solrock (highly unviable but gets TF too [and recovery]), Bronzong, Zapdos, Rhydon

M-Venu's targets of Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Mawile are all definitely found elsewhere... Mainly, something like ferrothorn for the ladder two and Gyarados for the former... Conkeldurr isn't terribly difficult to stop this gen.

There are substitutes... it's just that any more we don't have enough people innovating or innovating publicly. I personally just thought it was the former... not many teams I run across have a stall style without too many of the trends.

 

[Impractical]

Sticky Web and Parting Shot

Although not much is known about these two moves yet, they seem to have quite a lot of potential. You can read about Sticky Web and Parting Shot in detail here, but I'll give a brief description of what each move does. Sticky Web is a base 20 power Bug type move, which slows down you opponent's Pokemon as they enter the field. Parting Shot when used lowers the target's Attack and Sp. Atk stats and then the user switches out. Sticky Web has to potential to be incredible for slower based teams, as offensive teams rely on their high speed stat a lot, while Parting Shot is sort of like a defensive U-turn, gaining a ton of momentum for defensive based teams.

Sticky web does not have a base power, don't know if anyone's mentioned this. Please fix this in the OP

 

[/TenKen/]

I have a question for you stall players:

How do you break stall? (Well, since it's a thread about stall i thought I could get some advice...)
By the way, the main issue I have with stall is that I've met one only a single time (I'm in the lower ladder) so I lack the experience to shut it down.

 

[Rotosect]

Life Orb Kyurem-B, mixed Mega Garchomp and Mega Charizard X can potentially 6-0 entire stall teams by themselves.
Crobat is also a major pain in the ass for such teams thanks to its high speed, Infiltrator and Taunt.

 

[/TenKen/]

Life Orb Kyurem-B, mixed Mega Garchomp and Mega Charizard X can potentially 6-0 entire stall teams by themselves.
Crobat is also a major pain in the ass for such teams thanks to its high speed, Infiltrator and Taunt.

Basically you need mixed attackers that aren't half-assed like infernape, or a fast taunter that can actually survive in the long run, right?

 

[Frogifier]

Sorry for not reading 28 pages of text, but how do stall teams deal with other stall teams?

 

[Rotosect]

Basically you need mixed attackers that aren't half-assed like infernape, or a fast taunter that can actually survive in the long run, right?

Pretty much. A surprise Knock Off is also useful to turn Chansey into a complete joke. By "surprise" I mean not coming from things a Chansey should never face like Conkeldurr, but from pokemon that can bait her such as Thundurus and Manaphy (it can run a pivot set with U-Turn and Knock Off, making it an excellent Chansey bait).
Be wary of Clefable, probably the most dangerous pokemon in a stall team.

Sorry for not reading 28 pages of text, but how do stall teams deal with other stall teams?

Knock Off spam first and foremost to get rid of Leftovers and try to predict when a cleric is switching in so you can taunt it before it can do its job. Chansey and Clefable are the most common ones.

 

[Ajwf]

Most of the time, stall v stall comes down to who has the better objective play and can find one or two pokemon to disable and a way to do it that just allows their wincon to become unstoppable. aka continuously coming in on a cleric before it does anything and taunting it, getting the residual to eventually kill it. TFL's team is really good stall v stall having two pokemon that scare the shit out of most clerics and also carry taunt (heatran, skarmory just sit in for days on taunted sylveon/Chansey).

 

[Redolent]

I have a question for you stall players:

How do you break stall? (Well, since it's a thread about stall i thought I could get some advice...)
By the way, the main issue I have with stall is that I've met one only a single time (I'm in the lower ladder) so I lack the experience to shut it down.

Originally wrote a brief response to this, but it ended up becoming a full on guide to stall breaking. Here it is:

Non-offensive threats:

Taunt Gliscor. This moveset:

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 100 Def / 60 Spd / 104 SDef
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake

Every time I build a stall team it is one of the things I am most frightened of, and I can't happily consider a stall team complete until I know I have some way of dealing with it, even though not many people actually realise how good it is. Even some very successful stall teams like TFL's are absolutely torn apart by it. Specially defensive Gliscor specifically is the best option, because a physically defensive one will have trouble with Heatran, Aegislash, Scald Quagsire and Sylveon. If you have room for that set on your team, you're pretty much free to consider stall covered, as few stall players prepare for it adequately. Normal Gliscors are easy enough to beat as they can't touch Skarmory, but the ones with Taunt are awful to face. There are lots of other good options though.

Sableye is very annoying, always getting the first Taunt in to shield itself from status or Leech Seed, and always being to able to pull off a quick Recover before you can finish it off. To beat it a stall team will generally need Heatran, which can deal huge damage to it and burn it with Lava Plume, not much else can get the job done. I actually used to run Taunt + Bulk Up Talonflame on my old stall team to just so I had some way of dealing with it and other Taunt users.

Taunt + Will-O-Wisp Mew can often prove even worse, as it's still fast but also far bulkier. It does hate burns from Lava Plume though, and Aegislash's Shadow Ball will crush it.

CM + Magic Guard Clefable will beat pretty much any stall team lacking Taunt or Unaware (most good stall teams will have at least two of these things though).

Deoxys-D with its fast Taunt is often quite difficult for a stall team to finish off quickly, so while it isn't a direct threat, it can put up 2-3 layers of entry hazards, then once it goes down a good hyper offence team will be able to force enough switches to wear down a stall team very quickly so that its sweepers can clean up.

Baton Pass chains can block phazing attempts with Magic Bounce Espeon, and since stall teams lack significant power they can often build up huge numbers of boosts against stall teams quite easily. Stall teams will often run Unaware + Haze Quagsire just to deal with this, but even that can be kept at bay by the threat of a Spore from Smeargle.

Trick is an easy way to screw over common stall Pokémon. Chansey is often a stall team's best switch into things like Rotom-W and Latios, but if they Trick a Choice Scarf onto it it's basically useless for the rest of the match. Not what you want when Chansey is needed to deal with so many things.

Offensive threats:

Calm Mind + Rest Manaphy can power through Chansey and is immune to status. Very awkward to deal with, and the high burn chance of Scald makes it even worse.

Any Mega Charizard X that runs Outrage and Earthquake will cause huge problems for stall as that set can't be walled. Unaware Quagsire is generally stall's best answer to Mega Charizard X, but it can't wall Outrage variants.

Mega Pinsir is a huge issue despite being walled well by Skarmory, because Skarmory is pretty much the only stall-viable Pokémon that walls it (except Zapdos which isn't so common). Skarmory has a habit of getting worn down quite easily, so a smart player with a Mega Pinsir can just wait until that happens and then easily sweep your team. Other methods of Skarmory removal like Magnezone or Gothitelle pretty much ensure a free M-Pinsir sweep, nobody runs Shed Shell any more because in 95% of matches it's way inferior to Leftovers and Rocky Helmet.

Swords Dance + Life Orb Terrakion, after a Swords Dance anything without Unaware will go down very quickly, and Unaware Pokémon hardly matter because it still destroys Quagsire and Clefable unboosted.

Specs Keldeo is similar to Mega Pinsir in that stall teams will often only have one Pokémon that can really beat it, usually Amoonguss or Mega Venusaur. Once that goes down Specs Keldeo can pretty much destroy anything else you'll see on a stall team. Mega Venusaur in particular is extremely vulnerable to residual damage, keep the stall player switching and it will be rapidly worn down by Stealth Rock. It also gets worn down really easily if you can keep the stall player repeatedly switching it into Rotom-W Volt Switches and Will-O-Wisps, or put Sandstorm up so it can't rely on Synthesis. Synthesis only has 8PP, so if you can keep the pressure on Mega Venusaur for long enough, Keldeo will have an easy time later in the match. I've actually considered using Amoonguss over Mega Venusaur solely because it is less vulnerable to residual damage when battling a smart Hyper Offence player with a Specs Keldeo.

Mixed Aegislash is often quite difficult to deal with, especially Sub + Toxic Aegislash. Stall teams always run Toxic Chansey over Thunder Wave Chansey, and as Chansey is relied on so heavily, Aegislash is repeatedly given a free switch to come in and cause trouble. Stall's best option for dealing with it is often Mega Venusaur or Heatran, but these are both worn down really easily as they lack reliable recovery, and a max SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball will still do a lot of damage.

Knock Off lures, especially mixed Thundurus and Landorus. Landorus in particular is often too powerful switch into with anything except Chansey, but Landorus can actually beat Chansey quite easily by knocking off its Eviolite and then hitting it with Sheer Force-boosted Focus Blasts. Mixed Thundurus can Knock Off the Eviolite and then destroy it with Superpower, though any Thundurus lacking Psychic or Hidden Power Flying will be walled by Mega Venusaur. Lures in general work quite well at taking out key stall Pokémon.

Kyurem-B will beat pretty much any stall team lacking a good mixed wall. Chansey can stall it out of PP for Fusion Bolt, but it's not an ideal answer because its Seismic Tosses will fail to break Kyurem-B's Substitutes. Choice Band and Life Orb variants with Dragon STAB will just smash through everything.

Mega Mawile is so powerful that it can basically break any wall it pleases in two shots. It needs to run Fire Fang to beat Skarmory though, and luckily even a lot of walls can outspeed and burn/kill it before it does anything too horrible.

Mega Garchomp in the sand has good mixed attacking stats and Swords Dance, the Sand Force boost allows it to beat Unaware Quagsire and Clefable easily, Fire Blast will finish Skarmory and with a Swords Dance boost other walls like Gliscor will go down too.

If none of these are available then most stall teams can still be beat just with really clever play. Stall players are far less likely to get away with double switching compared to hyper offence players, as it's really not a playstyle that lends itself well to taking risks with switches. Stall plays it safe, so it's easy to take momentum away from it by outpredicting it. Honestly, after looking over this list, I'm amazed anyone ever called me "cheap" for running a stall team. It's extremely difficult (maybe even impossible) to make a stall team that can deal with all these issues, far easier to make some rapid-fire hyper offence team and just try to bludgeon everything to death.

 

[Rotosect]

I think another threat stall teams need to address are surprise Destiny Bonds, which are starting to become quite popular in OU.
I've seen Mega Gardevoir, Gengar and even Autotomize Aegislash (of all things) pulling them off.
Try using residual damage to KO potential DB users whenever possible, because losing a pokemon will hurt a stall team far more than an offensive one.

 

[Ajwf]

Redolent

Gliscor is a pretty good mention but has one major issue: Skarmory walls just about everything it does. That, and stall tries to at least have once ice utility move. If P2 ever caught on, that'd be an issue as well.

Under Sableye, I'd add a note that Sylveon also gives sableye hell.

MG Clefable: I'd mention that the Unaware CM version actually beats it. I'm not sure quagsire can. And if it's CM, defog scizor will punch through (Should punch through Cosmic power variants in two/three hits.

Baton pass is hit/miss vs stall. Haze is becoming way too popular, and I watched SansNickel just completely screw a baton pass team with his Sableye... Very dependent on the stall team you face.

Trick is excellent, just make sure you avoid giving heatran a scarf/specs or some tank Specs (Slowbro got specs from a Latios once, traded an AV [Which I knocked off] and allowed slowbro to basically sweep).

W/Pinsir: There are a few weaker checks. Rhydon's family can do it, Aggron-mega can, Rotom-w and -H can. Yeah, when these are removed, free sweep: but it takes a bit of work.

I think Keldeo isn't a good mention... stall naturally picks two, in general. Venu generally gets one, and then something like Slowbro, Aegislash, Gyarados, Zapdos... There are a lot of good stall pokes to take care of a keldeo.

For Aegi: Add Mandi/Chesnaught and possibly Clefable as checks/Counters to Aegi. Yeah, they need some heal bell support and such, but Chesnuaghts should now be dedicated for sub aegi. Also have seen Togekiss w/fire blast for aegi.

Kyub needs a Sylveon mention, makes it dangerous to use... I believe Skarmory can also eat uninvested Fusion bolts.


I need to talk about how good P2 and Sylveon are later. I've changed my opinion on Sylveon completely since the beginning of this generation simply by Sylveon's cutting through Kyub subs.

 

[Redolent]

Some very good points there. Skarmory doesn't beat Taunt Gliscor though, because it's Taunted first and will either knock itself out with Brave Bird recoil or be PP stalled to death. Taunt is also the only thing that will let Gliscor take Mega Venusaur reliably. You're right about Ice Beam being a good option for beating it, I couldn't find room for it on most teams personally though, and as much as I'd love to use P2 I'd really struggle to give up Chansey.

I do quite like Sylveon, but in the stall team I used it for it ended up being replaced by Umbreon because despite worse typing I appreciated its ability to take neutral hits better with its overall better bulk. It can still take Kyurem-B and other Dragons but I found having another switch-in for things like Choice Band Talonflame really helpful.

You're right that Skarmory can take a few Fusion Bolts, its main problem is that it can't take Ice Beams

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I actually used to use Alomomola as my main Kyurem-B counter on a stall team, as it can tank every move. It's a really good Pokémon that has only just started to get recognition, it walls pretty much all the extremely powerful physical Choice attackers that can 2HKO Quagsire, also Regenerator is great for switching into predicted U-turns. Hard to find a teamslot for it though.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

I cannot believe anyone just referred to anything in a competitive game as "shameful."

Do you know what is shameful? Losing. Winner gets everything, loser gets a lesson about how he could NOT win.

Some good analyzing here.

As for me - my opinion - a great/noteworthy staller that I've used is MegaSaur. Or regular venusaur, to say. (I've haven't read much of this thread, sorry if it was mentioned already.) MegaSaur and Venusaur do compete for the better spot, however.

MegaSaur:
- Gets thick fat, negating any fire type/ice type moves from even doing much, applying max HP.
- 120 Sp.Def along with 122 Defense is nothing to joke about, this makes MegaSaur an outstanding tank. And thick fat just makes this better.
- Various ways to recover, ranging from Leech Seed to Synthesis. SubSeed is a smart option too.
- Good offensively, with 100 Attack and 122 Sp.Atk, also having EQ to counter Heatran.

Stall capabilities:

SubSeed usually is a great option on MegaSaur, due to its high bulk. Sludge Bomb/Toxic can poison the foe, easily wearing it out with Seed damage and Poison damage. Synthesis usually can help if seeds don't provide enough recovery, but that can usually isn't much of a problem, as it is also reasonably outclassed by Giga Drain, an amazing, draining way to regain health.

Potential Stall Set:
MegaSaur@ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP, 176 Sp.Def, 76 Def
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
- Giga Drain

As weird as this set looks, it runs pretty effectively. Substitute is the protection, leech seed and toxic drain the health. Giga Drain is a nice form of recovery. Yup, all there is to it. Just don't go near Heatran and your fine.

Venusaur:
- Access to assault vest.
- Offensively oriented whilst carrying potential offensive status moves.

Stall Capabilities:

Although not as amazing as MegaSaur, you can save the mega spot on your team by making it a bulky vest. Although you may not toxic, Venusaur can hold a vest and still have decent recovery with giga drain, and be able to sludge bomb the opponent, with a 30% chance to poison.

Potential Stall Set:
Venusaur@ Assault Vest
Ability: Not important, but preferrably Chlorophyll.
EVs: 248 HP, 218 Sp.Atk, 44 Speed, 4 Attack
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- HP Fire/Venoshock

I was completely well when I wrote this, but it took a while to think of. Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain are primarily your best bets, but EQ counters heatran with a 2HKO. Sludge Bomb poisons the foe, and Giga Drain provides reliable recovery. But I know you're thinking, WTF VENOSHOCK? This is because there is roughly a 1/3 chance that you can poison with sludge bomb, which is of course a main goal. Venoshock is boosted to 130 damage when a target is poisoned. This will cause the strongest special poison move in the game, which can make it so that if Venusaur did its job with stalling (Poison + Giga Drain) that you can begin a nice sweep.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Tangrowth is a better AV grass type

 

[tehy]

As always with me, I'm using stall, and one thing I've found really awesome on stall this generation is having a lot of Taunt on your team.

It lets you smash other stall teams, and ward off most Defoggers (although Zapdos and the Lati Twins can just outspeed you anyways), which lets you focus more on offense in turn.

There are a lot of Pokemon with taunt on stall;Heatran, Skarmory, Mew, Sableye, and Mandibuzz are all on my team (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder in my sixth 'mon). Ideally, what I achieve is an infinite taunt effect, with Sleep Powder hopefully making Venusaur not Defog bait. That lets me reject Defog just about infinitely, and although I unfortunately also have to use Defog myself, Taunt can also deal with the problem of hazards at times.

By the way, Taunt on stall Heatran is freaking awesome. It just allows you to trash CM Magic Guard Clefable, which is otherwise kind of a massive problem for stall teams. It lets you beat other stall teams quite nicely too, although ones with Gliscor still make you their bitch. Other ones have serious problems with TauntTran though, especially if it's got Toxic, since the only common stall mon that doesn't give a crap about Toxic and Lava Plume besides Gliscor is Heatran, which gets Taunted unless it has Earth Power (rare on stall teams).

 

[Ajwf]

Guess what I have that you all don't:

Too much time.

Freaking hell, I have literally nothing to do besides write this Research Paper/Term Paper and I've already burnt myself out on it. So I think I'll write some stuff about stall since I don't have to MLA cite everything I do.

In this post, I want to cover a little bit about Porygon2 and Sylveon, mostly because I can't believe how good they've been for me on my stall team. Specifically, Pory2's capacity as a "Wild Card" and Sylveon's role as a "counter nuke" along with cleric roles.

So Porygon2 will start. In this overview of him, I want to discuss a few points. Mainly, his bulk, coverage, ability and viability in the current metagame. His niche on stall has yet to be fully explored even though I've had the great fortune to be able to use him multiple times. The set I mainly want to discuss is the following:

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Toxic

Role as a Tank/Wall

My list of P2 calcs from the Viability Ranks

Greninja: Pory2 steals protean... GG enemy team facing BoltBeam stab.
4 SpA Protean Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 240-284 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 140-165 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Garchomp-mega: Stealing sand force isn't useful. Getting Sand veil from Chomp might work, and rough skin turns this into an essential ohko.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 284-336 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sand: 135-159 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
And in a completely impossible situation with the first but showing off anyways:
252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Gyarados-mega: Mold Breaker isn't useful vs Gyara but is nice to have on offhand situations later.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 98-116 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Mamoswine: Tracing thick fat is nice, but it should be spamming EQ at you. If anything, it makes a switch a tad easier. Mamos mostly don't run super power this generation, but you only take like 36% anyways. Pory2 uses toxic stall. Recover and Toxic go, no set up to fear. If anything, be cheeky and dodge some EQs by knowing it can't go to ice attacks or hit thick fat P2 who completely takes nothing from that.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 93-111 (24.8 - 29.6%)

Thundrus-i: Prankster recover/toxic. Nothing more to say.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 164-194 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Remember, P2 has prankster to outspeed the second focus blast.

Landorus-t: Intimidate lowers Lando's attacks, Ice beam destroys.
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Rotom-w: Levitate is all around goodness, but not good vs rotom-w. This is something P2 simply walls and spams toxic at.
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 87-103 (23.2 - 27.5%)
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 42-50 (13.8 - 16.4%)

Dragonite: Multiscale P2 is kind of impossible to take from full health. Good luck expecting Dnite to do anything with a 4x ice weakness.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 272-324 (83.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 76-91 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Think P2 can't deal with Breloom? Let something else take sleep clause:

4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 204-242 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-159 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Have issues with toxic stall Gliscor? Steal poison heal, fear nothing from EQ and Ice beam back while keeping in perfect health.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 344-408 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (14.4 - 17.1%)

Check Landorus-i from full HP: If Focus Blast misses, you're left with a 100% Sheer Force Bolt beam attacker.
4 SpA Sheer Force Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 424-500 (132.5 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 283-335 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Destroy Talonflame.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 164-194 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%)

Survive/Revenge +2 Mega Pinsir: I know that people like tri-attack to OHKO here, but really, after rocks, Pinsir-mega dies to P2 on a check.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 148-176 (54.4 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 255-301 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios tries to break you... Enjoy Levitate.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Togekiss? Enjoy Serene Grace Ice Beam and Discharge.... Should toxic stall. Gave Toge Aura sphere just to show off.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%)
4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 94-112 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Keldeo has an SE fight attack, right? This is more a pinch check, but Discharge getting a para makes this for sure win.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Heatran may not be able to be killed, but it isn't doing anything to you.
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 57-68 (15.2 - 18.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after sandstorm damage

Oh btw, tracing unaware from Quagsire is nice, and this also counters unaware CM Clefable.

Little more on bulk.

Both his bulk and coverage is displayed well. With the eviolite boost, 374/459 are his total bulk in the physical side (HP/Def respectively). To give you an idea, Chesnaught's max Def set is 380/377. 364/379 is Mvenu's max Def. Cresselia's max Def set is roughly comparable with 444/372, making me believe his bulk is somewhere higher than a 120/120 on the physical side.

This isn't even to say his special bulk is bad. 374/339 is pretty frightening. 336 is 150 base stat uninvested Spdef (Check Aegislash SDef for reference). And... well, 374 is 85 HP invested, take that as you will :/ Realistically, the uninvested value appears to be about 115 (Rhyperior bulk).

So we know it's bulky. We also know Normal Type Woes. Fight weak and all. But really, it doesn't matter with fight not being as good this generation and stall generally having a few fight resists. The no-reliance on a normal stab to this set is also a good thing, allowing boltBeam coverage to literally destroy everything in it's way. Attacks are generally not an issue, and this set's only real pokemon it can't scratch is the BL Magnezone. It has insane bulk, it has good coverage. We all knew this. But let's talk about what really makes Porygon2 so good. The "Wild Card" ability.

A little on the Wild Card idea...
I've long since believed that stall's biggest flaw was the "Insurmountable Threat". For every team, this is different but the concept is really easy. Stall teams have threats they simply cannot beat. In tournament play, someone as one-dimensional as I needed some way to avoid getting counter teamed so easily. Reuniculus played decently will simply beat my Dreadnoughts and this issue became obvious if someone knew my team before I started. Sure, I could run TFL's team and avoid Reun, but other stall breakers existed that seemed to know the "Counter stall" formula. Could stall get something to possibly be 'gimmick' but still solid enough to work consistently?

While difficult to figure out, I believe that there are ways that it could happen. Abilities like Trace, Infiltrator and Mold breaker, moves like Skill Swap, Wonder Room and Conversion2 all came to mind. The moves where all gimmick and could only be employed vs specific threats (Skill Swap vs Magic Guard, Wonder Room vs strong attackers on pure physical/special walls, Conversion2 vs mono-attackers/choice locks). On the Dreadnoughts, I didn't like the gimmick and employed a faster bulky supporter instead (first for Mega Lucario, and then for all the random psychics that screwed with my team). But realistically, stall needed something to give them a chance against their weaknesses.

One of my good friends in the OU room, Ashura Areson, pointed out in Gen5 that Pory2 was the "Cornerstone of Anti-meta Strategies". I was thinking about that as I worked on my stall team, and I already knew how defensive he was, so I started to explore it. At first, his typing seemed to be an issue, but when I started running calcs, I saw that his typing was actually enabling him. With such a 'general' pokemon typing, he is able to become a broad wild card, usable against more threats. Everyone can talk about what he copies, and we all know this, but for my team specifically, he enabled me to instantly win almost any time I saw a gliscor and could get toxic'd and was multi-dimensional in sometimes sweeping, other times walling. His role game to game morphed to whatever I needed and was assisted by whatever creative abilities I could grab. One of the major points was shutting down unaware Clefable, who otherwise would be a royal pain in the ass. Walling off Gliscor was nice, and since the OU grass types all have really nifty abilities [Natural Cure/Poison Heal/Effect Spore/Thick Fat] (Technician excluded :/ ), I could reliably take on grass types.

All in all, his ability to morph roles game to game and even switch to switch is beyond valuable.

Role as a scout:
Another beautiful role of Trace is the scouting ability. It's like a better version of Frisk for abilities, and something stall enjoys having. In OU, the most crucial help is unfortunately vs fight types, though. You can still scout loom out, but it isn't advised. Checking Clefable's ability is helluva useful, as is checking Goodra's ever-changing abilities. It can be useful to scout out Thundy-i's abilities, but you might eat a super power if you find a defiant thundy. While this in itself is limited, it is a good addition to his role vs multi-ability threats. Also, if you come up vs a Zoroark, I'm almost certain you get no trace even if it is still illusioned, making it a dead giveaway.

Coupled with trace, his physical bulk allows P2 to check sets of any time lacking fighting stab. Remember, outside of Magnezone, he has something that can hit for neutral in toxic/iceBeam/Discharge so it isn't exactly a waste to stick around and check. Btw, a random note is Charizard-Y's flame thrower in sun does just under 50% so he can scout some special threats as well.


I'll probably look more into a Wild Card idea in the future but I don't know enough pokemon that can fill the role right now.

Edit: wanted to find a few replays to convey what I couldn't word... These are just the ones I have from the Terrible Triremes but I went and sorted out the ones where P2 was critical.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94761468
P2 Walls off Raikou for the majority of the game as I fear HP Grass, but clutches to beat Pinsir-Mega when Skarm gets too weak. Also slays Landorus-T, Gives a toxic to Keldeo that drags it down (Hits it with discharge later, too). Walls off Sylveon and pressures out heal bells through toxic. Slays Skarmory. Basically, did everything. Maiden voyage, questionable plays made by me on occasion.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94836223
Turn 45 P2 grabs Protean and starts to sweep.

So, did I convince anyone to try out P2? At least convince you of his viability? I'll get to Sylveon next time as to not bomb the thread too much. And anyways, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who have used Sylveon, I'm just using a PD version and would like to explain why it's better for stall.