Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[Pancham]

Honestly, I think it is absolutely clear that Murkrow is leaving, so I ak ignoring it here. However, Meditite and Swirlix are completely different. Swirlix had few checks, and only a fraction of counters. Meditite has a multitude of checks, and a number of counters. Honestly, the list of Swirlix checks and Meditite counters are probably the same number. Stop comparing unlike pokemon... (I just love faulty analogies.)

You can make a completely viable team without having Meditite in mind, yet you will still likely have a pokemon that checks Meditite. I am honestly not even exaggerating here. Also, as for the point that Wynaut is an otherwise "awful pokemon" without Meditite's presence, I would like to ask this person to actually use Wynaut. Wunaut beats a muktitude of top tier pokemon in this tier. But I digress.

I honestly have no problem with Meditite staying. Sure, it is strong, however, so are Pawniard, Misdreavus, LO Gastly and Abra, and the list goes on. Meditite just has too many checks right now for me to think its anything but balanced. I would honestly rather be discussing the removal of Knock Off in this tier than Meditite, but that's just me, clearly...

 

[TUO]

1. All notable sweepers in the metagame (except maybe krow) have numerous counters and strong checks, and as such, require support. Once these checks and counters are removed, these sweepers will be able to sweep. Every relevant offensive Pokemon will be brutal if its checks and counters are taken out or severely weakened; this is the nature of an offensive Pokemon.

There is something else you have to keep in mind. These counters are quite scarce, and support for the Pokemon (Knock Off) Is very relevant in the metagame. Meditite can also continue to do its job even with its checks out there as it can still get a lot of damage done.

2. This is absolutely true, but the same applies for other top tier offensive Pokemon; if they had multiple, highly effective hard counters that were extremely relevant, they wouldn't be able to function nearly as effectively. Misdreavus can beat every switch-in except defensive Shadow Ball Porygon with a combination of Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/HP Fighting/Will-o-Wisp/Nasty Plot. Ponyta is able to do the same to every switch-in except Thick Fat Resttalk Eviolite Munchlax, Resttalk Tyrunt, and maybe a few other niche mons with a combination of Fire Blast/Solar Beam/Morning Sun/Sunny Day/Will-O-Wisp. If for example, Scarf Pawniard switches in on Misdreavus to something other than WoW/HP Fighting, it wins. In this case, the opponent of Misdreavus is forced to engage in a coin flip should the Pokemon currently out not threaten Misdreavus severely. I did list five moves for both examples because Meditite isn't able to beat every relevant threat with four moves, either.

3. This is quite a bold and subjective statement that could certainly be disagreed with. Every other S ranked and A ranked mon has its unique advantages over Meditite to warrant a spot over it on a team; even the aforementioned Taillow has the advantage of reaching more than a measly 16 speed (this is not an argument that Taillow is more viable than Meditite, I'm just making a point here).

Maybe it was a bit bold, but it is my opinion when it comes to how much of an impact a Meditite can have in teambuilding and in-battle is greater other pokemon (except as I said, Murkrow and maybe Misdreavus) It is quite bold and can be argued against, but there's a reason this got a suspect test. One thing you have to notice about Meditite though is it pretty much has none of the issues of the above mentioned mons (SR/Knock Off Weakness, Recoil/Unreliable move issues bar HJK)
Meditite also outpowers every one of these mons. Blizzardy mentioned it was more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper. That, I can agree with and outside of MixKRow it definitely is one of the best wallbreakers (as i said Missy comes close) I admit it was a bit bold, but I really feel that Meditite can be considered the best (that's something you can't really prove)

Meditite's defensive typing is pretty meh tbh. As I showed above, it can't take a hit, and its typing doesn't help this with only 2 resistances. It also has 3 weaknesses to common attacking types, which doesn't make its life any easier.

I might have overhyped Meditite's defensive presence. However, it really is helpful in HO teams to have a Fighting resistance that can retaliate with so much damage. I was just stating how Meditite's typing makes Eviolite Meditite a really good Bulky Attacker. It's ability to tank Dwebble's stuff is real helpful too :)

 

[Austinf]

Even though Murkrow is going to leave LC, I'll also give my opinion on the bird, but I'll make it short.

Any set you can come up with is great. LO MixKrow (with HP Grass) is the set I've been using for the whole time, and even though some people say that with LO + BraveBird recoil it's easy to take it down, I'm pretty sure they forget that they have to sacrifice something before, and this has always been (like with Garchomp dppt) "banworthy". FoulPlay op pls ban. And the SubThief set makes it a lot easier to deal with any Pokémon one has problems dealing with. I'm pretty sure even a CB set would be just as good.
Ban

Meditite is something else.
Meditite would be even more broken than Murkrow if we were machines that could predict the opponent moves 100% of the time. It's one of those Pokémon that will be broken in the hands of a smart player. Still, we have to have a Pokémon like that in any tier imo, firstly, because it's more entertaining, and then, because people need to learn how to build a good team and how to play smart.
No Ban

 

[OP]

Maybe it was a bit bold, but it is my opinion when it comes to how much of an impact a Meditite can have in teambuilding and in-battle is greater other pokemon (except as I said, Murkrow and maybe Misdreavus)

However, it really is helpful in HO teams to have a Fighting resistance that can retaliate with so much damage. I was just stating how Meditite's typing makes Eviolite Meditite a really good Bulky Attacker. It's ability to tank Dwebble's stuff is real helpful too :)

I'd agree with Adam Lampert on this and say that you can make a team without meditite in mind and find you already have at least a check or too because its checks are definitely good in the meta game outside of checking meditite. (Note: If meditite has the right coverage move, your check could very well be 2HKO'd switching in.) I would also argue that having a fighting resist isn't very helpful as all the commonly used fighting types will likely be using knock off much more than using their fighting STAB and meditite can't switch in near as freely without an eviolite and the life orb/scarf versions will take a good chunk of damage.

 

[Artemisa]

Your fighting resist is not your Meditite resist due to it's psychic stab. Poisons and Bugs are your Fighting resist although bugs can switch in on fighting stab, but they take a lot of zen headbutt. Meditite "checks/counters" are psychics / fairies (mainly just snubbull or w/e and Spritzee) you have to carry two different answers to be prepared for a Fighting with knock off and one that can tank some hits from Meditite with eviolite ofc.

The reason Swirlix was compared to Meditite was because of their ability to overcome their checks/counters with its amazing movepool. With meditite you never have a consistent counter other than Elygem or Drowzee or Wynaut (unless batton pass lol). "I will beat it if it doesn't have X (or maybe even Y too)" means some matches Meditite will break your answer leaving you forced to resort to Revege Killing or playing extremely accurate and winning every 50/50.

Also things you call "checks" get either 3hko'd , 2hko'd with rocks, or straight up 2hko'd. Things like Fletchling, Scarf Pawniard, Gastly, even Missy at times aren't have trouble switching in.

 

[Pancham]

I am still not seeing tye resemblance of Swirlix and Meditite. Swirlix had the ability to use at least 5 different sets, which makes it around 3 times more versatile than Meditite, and all of which had extremely different checks and counters. Meditite has 3 sets, and all have the exact same checks and counters. Unlike Swirlix wherr you had to use at least 2 different checks, you can get away with only using 1 Meditite switch in and still be perfectly fine.

Meditite may have the ability to 2hko a lot of the tier, but I think that fact is blatantly obvious. MegaZard, MegaPinsit, Thubdurs, and many more wallbreakers in OU do the exact same, yet they are by far not broken at all. (I dont really like using other tiers to make a point, but I do believe people here tend to forget what exactly wallbrealers are tbh) If a wallbreaker isnt killing a majority of the tier, it is pretty awful. LO Abra, LO Gastly, NP Missy, SS Tirt, and other wallbreakers (Tirt is more of a sweeper, but it can be used to break walls so a different pokemon can clean) all do the exact same. Are they OP? Not at all. I would also argue Meditite has enough negative factors to balqnce out its positive factors. For instance, it has an extreme case of 4MSS, is extremely slow, is easy to wear down, is not bulky if it doesnt have an Eviolite, is easy as hell to revenge kill, and it is also easy to play around due to the combination of these negative factors.

Meditite is a strong pokemon, that much is obvious. However, I wouldnt exactly call it a broken pokemon just because it is a good wallbreaker. It is checked by almost every pokemon in the S and A tiers, and many more in B and C. Meditite also has the most 4MSS I have ever seen on a single pokemon in LC, so much so that if it is using a particular coverage move, it loses to every other check that doesnt mind that coverage move.

(Once again, ignore grammatical and spelling mistakes, internet is still down, thus I am still using my phone.)

 

[Artemisa]

Swirlix only used the CM set and BD set and different variants depending on the moves, Meditite has 3 sets and can use different variants depending on the moves. How are they different other than the amount of sets each of then have?

Extreme 4MSS I believe is when you are forced to run like 3 moves and only one moveslot free. Meditite doesn't need to run all the moves in the standard and can still be successful picking apart it's shaky counters with the appropriate coverage move. If you have 1 meditite switch in, say Spritzee and Meditite has Zen Headbutt + Poison Jab what will you do? Spritzee dies and you lost your only switch in to Meditite.

I think everything can revenge killed just like Meditite.In order to revenge kill you have to fodder something, and untop of that Meditite can just switch out and repeat the process again. How is that a healthy way to deal with Meditite?

 

[Pancham]

The thing is, the pokemon you use to counter/check CM Swirlix, CM + CG Swirlix, BD Swilix, SubBD Swirlix, BD + Thief Swirlix, BD + Aromatherapy Swirlix and BD + Protect Swirlix are all very, very different. The things you use to counter/check LO, Eviolite and Scarf Meditite are all pretty much the exact same. And no, Meditite's 4MSS is definitely an extreme case.

It depends on the rest of the opponent's and my team. I also dont really think Spritze is exactly a good Meditite switchin, but whatever. Say Spritzee was my inly Tite switchin, but I also have Fletch and Gastly on my team as well, then after Spritzee is dead I would go to Gastly and Sub on the switch. Or maybe Fletch, and do the same, maybe SD.

 

[g]

Murkrow:

1) Is Murkrow broken?
Murkrow is one of the strongest pokemon in the tier in terms of base stats and also has the best mixed offenses (85/85) with a STAB Brave Bird which 2HKOes at least everything that doesn't resist it. It is also in the second fastest speed tier hitting 19 speed which makes him faster than most of the metagame. It also has STAB priority, Sucker Punch, which it can easily use to deal with scarfers and faster threats like Choice Scarf Chinchou, Choice Scarf Meditite and Elekid (the only viable unboosted pokemon that can outspeed the Bird)
(236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Elekid: 21-27 (100 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Chinchou: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Meditite: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Prankster Substitute and Sucker Punch also make him able to beat Misdreavus (who is one of the few pokemons as fast as Krow) with some prediction.
Murkrow's strong mixed attacking stats also permit him able to beat his "counters" (namely Archen and Tirtouga) with the appropriate Hidden Power only with the help of stealth rock. (84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Water(or Electric) vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Archen: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (OHKO if he is running the popular Berry Juice | 84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 31-42 (147.6 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
Another point in favour of a Murkrow ban is the unpredictability as it could run a lot of sets and viable Movesthat can beat most of his checks (think of SubThief to beat Munchlax).
There are no Counters to Murkrow and if you don't run multiple checks you will be destroyed by Murkrow so it is definitely Broken so no need to answer the other questions.

Meditite:

1) Is Meditite Broken?
Meditite has even more power than Murkrow. He hits 28 attack after Pure Power and he has access to High Jump Kick which is the strongest move in the tier and to a colourful movepool with two priority moves (not that strong but that's something).
But Meditite has flaws. He isn't the fastest pokemon in the tier hitting only 16 speed if maximum invested and he is pretty frail without an Eviolite. His dual STAB do not have the best coverage and he is walled by different pokemon depending on the coverage move he chooses to run. He is in any case the best Bulky attacker in the tier thanks to Drain Punch which gives him recovery and his solid Bulk if invested as he checks most other bulky attacker in the tier. Meditite's speed makes him prone to revenge killing as there are a lot of prominent pokemon that outspeed and can OHKO or cripple Medittie such as Murkrow, Misdreavus, Gastly and Taillow and pokemons capable of taking any single hit and OHKOing back such as Snubbul. Psychic types like Slowpoke and pokemons such as Honedge can deal well with Meditite as they resist most move he carries and they have good defense. Choice Scarf helps resolving some of these problems but most of Meditite moves have common immunities that make him easy to revenge kill.
So, while Meditite is one of the best offensive pokemons in the tier, he is not broken.
2) Is Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?



I'll edit this post later with the other questions

 

[Rowan]

well... meditite... hmm...

I originally was anti-ban, now I'm on the fence. Just putting some loose thoughts out here.

I often teambuild without having Meditite in mind and end up with at least 3 checks to it anyway. Yes, many things struggle to switch into it, but LO Houndour or Cranidos or Darumaka are hard to switch into and we're not discussing that. So what's the difference?

Meditite has bulk. It doesn't need to run a Life Orb to wallbreak, it is sufficient enough with an Eviolite. This means it can switch into stuff like Fighting-types easier, as well as stuff like Lileep, Ferroseed, Porygon, Munchlax. (risks paralysis, but prediction can be used etc... it's not hard to know when a pory or ferro will thunderwave or do something else). Meditite also has Drain Punch, meaning it can actually stick around and continue to wear down threats. Also SR resistance is fantastic. Houndour or Cranidos and Darumaka are gonna get worn down soon enough whether it be LO recoil, SR weakness or move recoil. Meditite can easily just switch out of its checks, switch back in later and hit hard again.

Unlike Murkrow though, Meditite is very prediction reliant. vs. a Pawniard do you want to use ZenButt to hit the missy switch in and risk losing to Pawniard, or do you want to use Drain Punch and give Missy a free switch in? I would argue these 50/50s aren't great for the meta, but I'm not sure if the level of prediction Meditite has to use makes it broken.

I'm really stuck here, because it seems broken in theory, but I've never particularly struggled facing it, like I have done with krow. All Ghost, Fairy, Flying, Psychic and a few Fire-types can threaten it so often you'll have an easy enough time dealing with it. Most teams will have at least 2 of these types in a team.

I don't think Meditite restricts teambuilding anywhere near as much as any of the other suspected Pokemon, therefore I'm leaning towards a no-ban as of now.

These thoughts are kinda jumbled, writing them down kinda helped me sort through them in my head, so sorry if my post is bad. I'll probably post a better argument later.

Edit: also find that Meditite can be turned into a liability once it kills something: Fletchling, Misdreavus can both set up on it with ease, Vullaby gets a free defog/knock off. Gastly and Taillow can really turn the offensive momentum around if Meditite is in. Larvesta gets a free u-turn/wisp, pony can set up sunny day freely. Basically, once Meditite kills something momentum can completely shift to the opposing team. This is something that never happens with Murkrow. Offensive pressure will always be on the side that has Murkrow out.

 

[doomsday doink]

Is Murkrow broken? Kind of.

Murkrow isn’t necessarily broken, it just has a variety of sets that all function well under certain circumstances. It functions just like Swirlix did, being able to hit checks and counters for its other sets and still retain its wonderful sweeping potential. However, unlike Swirlix, if Murkrow gets a free turn due to a switch, its best option is to either use Substitute, or if it’s not running that, Brave Bird whatever switches in. Stealth Rocks plus a couple of nicely predicted switches and attacks can easily finish Murkrow and its best means of recovery is Roost, which ultimately takes away a coverage moveslot.

Is Murkrow making LC not fun? Once again, kind of.

Murkrow definitely dissuades people from continuously playing Little Cup because most n00bs tend to not run Chinchou, Spritzee or other decent Murkrow checks. Murkrow has also made the metagame rather stale due to every team having to run a check for it. However, most players who spend at least a little bit of time learning the metagame or are seasoned veterans know how to deal with Murkrow and reliably take care of it. But then, there’s Murkrow with Swagplay… That’s just dumb…

Are these reasons deferring people from playing LC? I think so.

As I referenced above, Murkrow makes the metagame rather stale and n00bs get swept by Murkrow all of the time due to a lack of preparedness. All in all, I would rather Murkrow not be banned, but if it does in fact get banned, the metagame will even out quite a bit and new threats will rise to add a new flair to Little Cup.

Is Meditite broken? No.

Although the popular opinion is that Meditite is incredibly OP due to Pure Power and High Jump Kick, it isn’t broken. Meditite has various checks and counters, many of which can switch in on most, if not all, of its common moves. Honedge has the unique niche of being unaffected by Drain Punch/HJK, Poison Jab and Fake Out, while resisting Psycho Cut and Bullet Punch. Unless Meditite is running Fire Punch (which severely weakens its sweeping potential due to the lack of a better move), Honedge is going to force the switch almost every time. Snubbull is another great answer, being only 3-4HKOed by Bullet Punch and resisting Drain Punch/HJK. Snubbull can take a couple hits and hit Meditite hard with Play Rough, paralyze it with T-Wave, or predict the switch into a Steel/Poison type and use Earthquake. Misdreavus can easily switch in on Scarfed Meditite locked into HJK/Drain Punch and create great momentum by switching out again or Will-o-Wisp-ing whatever switches in. Meditite definitely has fantastic sweeping potential, but can be shut down by multiple Pokemon that don’t only possess the niche of checking Meditite.

Is Meditite making LC not fun? No.

Little Cup is still fun with Meditite lurking in the shadows. As I mentioned above, there are various ways to deal with Meditite’s maybe 1-2 viable sets. Meditite definitely makes LC fun, bringing a certain challenge that wasn’t previously seen in Gen 5 LC or Gen 6 LC when Gligar was still the prominent threat. It’s also incredibly fun for the user. Clearing out all of Meditite’s checks/counters and then sweeping someone with HJK or Psycho Cut gives the user a warm, fuzzy, blissful feeling as their opponent claims Meditite is OP even though they let their Honedge and Misdreavus both die to your Pawniard. gg no re.

Are these reasons deferring people from playing LC? Yes, but let me elaborate.

Meditite is deferring new people from playing LC. Trying to get acquainted with the tier and not being fully prepared for Meditite leads to a lot of raging. However, if one simply places a Meditite counter on their team, even if they can only effectively use it a minority of the time, the player will begin to better understand how to deal with Meditite and thus construct a more solid team. Veterans of the tier also know how to deal with Meditite effectively, so they aren’t leaving LC due to Meditite’s “OP-ness.”

 

[Artemisa]

The thing is, the pokemon you use to counter/check CM Swirlix, CM + CG Swirlix, BD Swilix, SubBD Swirlix, BD + Thief Swirlix, BD + Aromatherapy Swirlix and BD + Protect Swirlix are all very, very different. The things you use to counter/check LO, Eviolite and Scarf Meditite are all pretty much the exact same. And no, Meditite's 4MSS is definitely an extreme case.

It depends on the rest of the opponent's and my team. I also dont really think Spritze is exactly a good Meditite switchin, but whatever. Say Spritzee was my inly Tite switchin, but I also have Fletch and Gastly on my team as well, then after Spritzee is dead I would go to Gastly and Sub on the switch. Or maybe Fletch, and do the same, maybe SD.

How does that change the fact that Meditite can overcome it's checks/counters just like Swirlix? Like I said all of those are variations of two sets which overcome certain pokemon and get walled by certain pokemon. Meditite can use it's physical movepool to overcome physical walls, it doesn't have to run sp attacking moves to exploit physical's average or below average special bulk. Just like swirlix only like two moves are are extremely recommended on Meditite and two more are left on things you want to beat.

Corkscrew
Meditite can run fire punch to fuck up egg / honedge / pawniard, etc so it can use that to severly damage pawniard or hit missy with a nice 40% not even factoring rocks. Other than that yeah almost everything is a 50/50 with Meditite which isn't healthy, coinflips are niether skillful or competitive it's just a luck factor. Every turn being a luck factor pretty much sucks, that helps push Meditite to the broken side imo.

 

[PumpHead]

Why are people comparing Swirlix to Meditite? They are completely different. Swirlix was a far different case when it came to getting past it's walls (whether it was at +6 beating the ass of everything with Play Rough/Return, or being a CM speed demon with great coverage) because nothing could wall both the special and the physical Swirlix in one Pokemon. Plus, Swirlix was unable to be revenge killed. After an Unburden boost, it hit a whopping 30 speed (speed tie it with Scarf Voltorb?) and could only really be stopped by something that could wall physical (Koffing) or special (Lileep or Munchlax). Meditite, on the other hand, is slow and is easily able to be revenge killed. Even scarf is locked into something (typically a STAB) and will be forced to switch on the opponent bringing in a Ghost/Dark/other resist, and Fletchling just deals with whatever with Acrobatics. They are not comparable, really, and should be not be treated like they are.

 

[Kappaten]

Is Meditite broken? No.

Although the popular opinion is that Meditite is incredibly OP due to Pure Power and High Jump Kick, it isn’t broken. Meditite has various checks and counters, many of which can switch in on most, if not all, of its common moves. Honedge has the unique niche of being unaffected by Drain Punch/HJK, Poison Jab and Fake Out, while resisting Psycho Cut and Bullet Punch. Unless Meditite is running Fire Punch (which severely weakens its sweeping potential due to the lack of a better move), Honedge is going to force the switch almost every time. Snubbull is another great answer, being only 3-4HKOed by Bullet Punch and resisting Drain Punch/HJK. Snubbull can take a couple hits and hit Meditite hard with Play Rough, paralyze it with T-Wave, or predict the switch into a Steel/Poison type and use Earthquake. Misdreavus can easily switch in on Scarfed Meditite locked into HJK/Drain Punch and create great momentum by switching out again or Will-o-Wisp-ing whatever switches in. Meditite definitely has fantastic sweeping potential, but can be shut down by multiple Pokemon that don’t only possess the niche of checking Meditite.

All of the pokemon you mentioned get exactly one switch in if they mispredict. Many powerful pokemon like Darumaka and Cranidos, mentioned above have a handful of checks and counters as well, but also have no element of prediction. They're going to just use one move. Meditite has an expansive movepool that it can use to exploit any specific check it wants. Not to mention, who locks their Meditite into a fighting move when they know Misdreavus is still on the opposing team? Should we be forced to run Misdreavus (or Gastly) on every team as checks to Meditite, to deter it from using Fighting-type moves? I'm not saying these pokemon are not good otherwise, but you don't know what set the Meditite you are facing is running, and it is Russian Roulette when you send one of your Pokemon in.

Is Meditite making LC not fun? No.

Little Cup is still fun with Meditite lurking in the shadows. As I mentioned above, there are various ways to deal with Meditite’s maybe 1-2 viable sets. Meditite definitely makes LC fun, bringing a certain challenge that wasn’t previously seen in Gen 5 LC or Gen 6 LC when Gligar was still the prominent threat. It’s also incredibly fun for the user. Clearing out all of Meditite’s checks/counters and then sweeping someone with HJK or Psycho Cut gives the user a warm, fuzzy, blissful feeling as their opponent claims Meditite is OP even though they let their Honedge and Misdreavus both die to your Pawniard. gg no re.

1-2 viable sets? Unless you mean that those sets have two slashes for every move, you're just not seeing the bigger picture. Meditite may be fun for you (Gligar was fun for me), but your argument for it is that people suck at checking it so get better? You're invalidating yourself with your arrogance.

Are these reasons deferring people from playing LC? Yes, but let me elaborate.

Meditite is deferring new people from playing LC. Trying to get acquainted with the tier and not being fully prepared for Meditite leads to a lot of raging. However, if one simply places a Meditite counter on their team, even if they can only effectively use it a minority of the time, the player will begin to better understand how to deal with Meditite and thus construct a more solid team. Veterans of the tier also know how to deal with Meditite effectively, so they aren’t leaving LC due to Meditite’s “OP-ness.”

Huge entry barriers because you cannot immediately identify ways to stop a threat are not what you want in any tier, especially one with a ladder as short as Little Cup's. We want new people to play the tier. Saying veterans know how to deal with Meditite is insignificant; Veterans knew how to deal with Swirlix or Gligar (hell, they better know how to deal with Krow) but that does not make those threats any less broken than they are.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Murkrow is definitely leaving LC. However I will also defend my point on him being banned. The LO mixed krow is the most powerful set it can run and, while the others sets are good, this one is indeed the most effective. Krow has no counters; it is a matter of who you will sacrifice to check murkrow latter and we all know this isn't healthy for the metagame. The SubThief Krow and Swagplay are also good sets murkrow can run, but the one who doesnt need any skill and is 100% effective is the lo krow. Answering the three questions : 1) Is Murkrow broken? Yes. It causes trouble to you the entire match and you should always be sure that you are going to loose a mon when facing him. 2) Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun? Murkrow defines what is viable in this metagame, limitating teambuilding. Also, battles become more stressing. 3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? A lot of people leave LC because of murkrow.

Now to meditite. First, if a wallbreaker have only a few counters it is a good wallbreaker. You don't need to always taking in consideration tite when making a team. You will always have a lot of things to check it and even survive a hit from tite. Now, I will nominate tite pros and cons:
[Pros]
+The most powerful wallbreaker in the tier with HJK.
+Good movepool with priority and elemental punches.
+Good bulk with eviolite.
[Cons]
-Low speed.
-Weaknesses to the most commons types in the meta (Flying, ghost and fairy) and only two resistances.
- It has a case of 4MSS where it can't run both bullet punch, fake out, poison jab and elemental punches.
Even if it isn't certain which coverage moove tite has in the battle, meditite doesnt have the offensive presence murkrow has, because counters exists and they are almost the same with the three main sets (eviolite, lo, trick scarf). There aren't a lot of things who can't switch into lo houndour, but this doesn't make houndour broken. Why? Because of 45/30/50 defenses, weakness to stealth rock and mach punch and it has a lot of checks who outspeeds and kills it. Even if switching into meditite is extremely difficult, his flaws balance him on the metagame. Even with hjk,which is a extremely unreliable moove, meditite is controlable; he can't run hjk and drain punch, because he is going to miss another stab, coverage or priority. Usually the preferable coverage moove is thunder punch and depending on the battle you can figure out what coverage moove tite is using. Also the lo version is much more frail than the eviolite version, so the number of checks increases. Meditite also doesn't overshadow the other fighting types; timburr eats status for breakfast and has more bulk (75/55/35), mienfoo has regenerator+u-turn and more bulk too, scraggy has dd, good abilities in moxie and shed skin and he is the bulkiest (50/70/70). The thing is: all the fighting types have different functions and different qualities; meditite is the most powerful of them, but, that doesnt mean he is the best of them. Now answering the questions: 1)Is Meditite broken? No, because a lot of mons can counter it and even more can check it. 2) Is Meditite making LC not fun? Nope. He is a hard threat to deal with, but he still requires skill to play. In follow to discover the coverage moove, look at the opposing team. What does that team needs to get rid of in order to another mon/tite sweeps? Meditite balances the metagame I think 3)Is a combination of 1 and 2 dettering individuals from playing LC? Yeep, and we should take that in consideration. I know about people who stopped playing LC because of meditite too. Well those are my two cents :)

 

[Wobbyble]

Artemisa is comparing Swirlix and Meditite in the sense that they both have specific sets or moves that get past their respective checks or counters. Swirlix had Aromatherapy for status, Flamethrower Belly Drum for Ferroseed, Thief for Tirtouga, even Psychic for poisons, etc. You couldn't tell what coverage moves it was running until it revealed them, which made it very dangerous to deal with.

The same applies to Meditite. It could have Fire Punch for your Honedge, Poison Jab for Spritzee, or Trick for crippling walls. Not to mention it can also run different sets, like Scarf for surprise revenges, LO that can 2HKO Misdreavus with ZHB + Bullet, Baton Pass because fuck Wynaut, and more. It's not a predictable mon, and each set is almost equally dangerous, that's how it's similar to Swirlix.

They are very comparable in certain aspects and it's a pretty good analogy imo

 

[chimp]

Artemisa is comparing Swirlix and Meditite in the sense that they both have specific sets or moves that get past their respective checks or counters. Swirlix had Aromatherapy for status, Flamethrower Belly Drum for Ferroseed, Thief for Tirtouga, even Psychic for poisons, etc. You couldn't tell what coverage moves it was running until it revealed them, which made it very dangerous to deal with.

The same applies to Meditite. It could have Fire Punch for your Honedge, Poison Jab for Spritzee, or Trick for crippling walls. Not to mention it can also run different sets, like Scarf for surprise revenges, LO that can 2HKO Misdreavus with ZHB + Bullet, Baton Pass because fuck Wynaut, and more. It's not a predictable mon, and each set is almost equally dangerous, that's how it's similar to Swirlix.

They are very comparable in certain aspects and it's a pretty good analogy imo

I think its a good analogy as well, but the difference is that Swirlix could not be revenged once its gets its boosts. Meditite is different in that, no matter what move it picks, it can still be revenged. Misdreavus, Fletchling, etc. And as Corkscrew pointed out; those pokemon can take advantage of the switch to shift momentum for its team. I don't think there are any pokes who are made unusable due to Meditite.

There are plenty of pokemon who can work like Meditite; using good coverage to get around switch ins. Solosis can maim all its counters with Shadow Ball or Hidden Power fighting, or Thunderbolt (and certainly has the space for two + Psychic and filler). Mienfoo has Poison Jab and Knock Off to hurt/cripple its switch ins. Does that make it broken?

All that said, I'm not implying Meditite ISN'T broken. I'm really on the fence. Both sides are making great arguments imo.

 

[Anna says hi]

Murkrow
1) Is Murkrow broken?
While its individual sets are not broken, there is no 100% counter to Murkrow, regardless of what set it runs. Life Orb sets are countered by Choice Scarf Amaura, while SubThief sets are countered by Ferroseed(Although Murkrow does not like stealing a Choice Scarf). Swagplay sets are countered by...... Glameow? Murkrow's versatility is not limited to coverage moves, but rather to 3 distinct sets with very different functions, making it impossible to counter until you know what set it runs.

2) Is Murkrow making LC not fun?
On every team, I have to take in to account Murkrow. Although Murkrow's counters are not obscure(Except Glameow), they do restrict teambuilding. I always designed my teams around countering the Life Orb set, meaning that SubThief sets preformed well against me, and Swagplay sets were entirely luck-based. People will have to run 3 counters or else they will be taken out by one of its sets eventually.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from joining LC?
Yes, as new people have no idea how to counter all three different sets and will probably keep losing.



Meditite
1) Is Meditite broken?
No. It has a very hard counter in Wynaut, who can switch in to any of its attacks and dispatch it with ease. In addition, sets lacking Bullet Punch are countered by Staryu, and Misdreavus can switch in on a Fighting STAB and burn it, or use Shadow Ball. While Choice Scarf variants are a bit harder to counter, they lack the utility of switching moves, and are easily forced out by a ghost.

2) Is Meditite making LC not fun? No. It has a myriad of checks and several hard counters(Wynaut comes to mind instantly). Although it is a bit difficult to counter, it is no more difficult to counter, than, for example, Choice Scarf Bunnelby.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from joining LC?
No. Wynaut counters all possible sets, and there is nothing it can do except take out Wynaut's probable Berry Juice before it faints.

 

[Merritt]

Fighting Meditite can be painful, as sometimes that Eviolite set you expected turns out to be a scarf that just outsped what you expected to counter it. Meditite has problems that are directly contrary to Murkrow, however.

LO Tite hits like a truck, essentially 2HKOing pretty much everything you could ever want to switch in to it. However, LO Tite is arguably one of the worse Tite sets, as it now has 30/55/55 defenses without Eviolite and no reliable recovery. It's frail enough that it pretty much has to have something else die to come in, which, as Prem said, is not healthy. The final, and deadly, flaw is that it is slow. With the plethora of faster mons, it just can't cause a sweep of any competent team.

Scarf Tite is dangerous, but shares similar flaws to LO Tite. Meditite with a scarf still hits hard, but loses out on some 2HKOs. It has the speed it wants now, but unlike Murkrow, Meditite is weak to priority, notably Fletchling Acrobatics, and does not resist Sucker Punch. Meditite's ultimate flaw with a scarf is the fact that it loses its fantastic coverage, as both its STABs have an immunity and its coverage moves have a downside of not being able to be utilized as well as they are on other sets, due to its poor bulk and very specified things each coverage move hits. For example, if you lock yourself into Psycho Cut or Poison Jab, Pawniard gets a free turn to do whatever, or do a good deal of damage with pursuit. If you use HJK or Drain Punch, Spritzee or Misdreavus get their own freeish turn, and so on. This is a problem for all choice sets, but with Meditite's poor bulk it can usually only switch in when something dies.

Eviolite Tite is probably the most threatening set and the one the best arguments have been using to push for a ban. Tite's mediocre defenses and speed are made up in part by the powers of eviolite, making it a powerful threat with decent enough defenses. Here its low HP helps with the fighting STAB of choice, Drain Punch, as a little goes a long way. This Tite is also able to switch in on things that do not severely threaten it, and begin terrorizing. However, EvioTite still faces threats due to low speed. Without the power of LO, previous 2HKOs become 3HKOs and 2HKOs that OHKO Meditite and are also faster will win, unlike the scarf set. This Meditite also suffers from 4MSS, even more so than the others, as it cannot rely on neutral attacks to rip through the opponent like LO Tite, and typically always carries a priority move in Bullet Punch or Fake Out or both, unlike Scarf Tite which limits it to having 3 moveslots for everything it needs.

Is Meditite a threat? Yes. Is it hard to switch in on? Absolutely. However, we also have other things in the tier that are nowhere near broken that are hard to switch in on, such as Cranidos. For example, a Life Orb Cranidos, which has similar speed, attack, and defenses, 2HKOs the entire tier with Head Smash, Crunch, and Earthquake. For example, in a slightly unrelated calc, 236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Cranidos' weakness to priority and poor speed are what ultimately make it not broken, which is a similar case to Meditite — certainly a better comparison than Swirlix.

 

[Kappaten]

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from joining LC?
No. Wynaut counters all possible sets, and there is nothing it can do except take out Wynaut's probable Berry Juice before it faints.

You keep mentioning Wynaut when Wynaut loses to any set that includes Baton Pass. Wynaut does not, therefore, counter all Meditite sets because Wynaut literally can do nothing against a Baton Pass Meditite. In fact, Wynaut suddenly becomes a liability when Meditite is revealed to have Baton Pass.

Is Meditite a threat? Yes. Is it hard to switch in on? Absolutely. However, we also have other things in the tier that are nowhere near broken that are hard to switch in on, such as Cranidos. For example, a Life Orb Cranidos, which has similar speed, attack, and defenses, 2HKOs the entire tier with Head Smash, Crunch, and Earthquake. For example, in a slightly unrelated calc, 236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Cranidos' weakness to priority and poor speed are what ultimately make it not broken, which is a similar case to Meditite — certainly a better comparison than Swirlix.

The difference between Meditite and Cranidos is that Cranidos has a predictable moveset; this is without mentioning the immense recoil a move like Head Smash has, and combining this with Cranidos' vulnerability to priority and its naturally low speed is what makes Cranidos not broken. Meditite is completely unpredictable at high level play, making is akin to Swirlix as Artemisa keeps saying--you know what Meditite in general is capable of, but you don't have a clue what your opponent's Meditite is going to do.

 

[Merritt]

Meditite is completely unpredictable at high level play, making is akin to Swirlix as Artemisa keeps saying--you know what Meditite in general is capable of, but you don't have a clue what your opponent's Meditite is going to do.

Actually, I would say that argument is more similar to the Gligar argument. If you go look at the discussion, you'll see that Swirlix was banned for the sheer effectiveness of its sets, and it had a few distinct ones. Gligar, on the other hand, had the same sort of argument about all the things it could run brought up — among them, ironically, baton pass. What really differentiates Swirlix and Meditite is sweeping capability and the sheer difference in checks. Swirlix could (and did) sweep teams, while Meditite has to be facing a poor team to sweep, due to its low defenses and speed. In addition, Swirlix's special sets had certain counters/checks, the Belly Drum set had others. Meditite has pretty much the set of checks and counters throughout, varying based on moves, not on sets.

In addition, while the Cranidos calc was done sheerly for illustration purposes on why not having counters is not the only reason something can be broken, I'll bite. Meditite has a similar recoil move in HJK, similar defenses with the same item, the same max speed, and weaknesses to common priority. The comparison is there.

 

[boo836]

Corkscrew, Meditite doesn't heavily rely on prediction to win against its checks. In most cases, Meditite can afford to predict a switch to Gastly or such, as nobody would really be willing to risk losing their Pawniard to Scarftite or an uncaring Drain Punch. Playing the prediction game is hardly an argument against something being broken, as brutally any Pokemon can predicted around, or utilize prediction themselves.

In the cases of Darumaka and Cranidos being hard to switch in, these Pokemon are far more easily countered/checked than Meditite. Meditite doesn't lose a lot of matchups to priority, and has far more staying power than Cranidos. Cranidos is far less bulky than Meditite, and its typing exposes it to a lot more than Meditite's does, including various Fighting-types. Typically, the primary answer to Meditite is Misdreavus, which really isn't reliable in the least. Hustlemaka doesn't usually live long either, as it is weak to the common Stealth Rock, has 80% accurate moves at best, and relies on Choice items. Growlithe, Frillish, Skrelp, and more also fuck it up.

Anyways, point isn't JUST that it's incredibly difficult to counter, it's that Meditite is a lot more flexible than other Pokemon that can 2HKO the metagame.

 

[sparktrain]

yeah, here's my thoughts regarding the suspects

Murkrow – Well, as it stands right now, the majority of people believe that Murkrow is too much for the tier, and this is my belief as well. Since it’s been discussed extensively already, I’ll try and be succinct with my reasoning as to its utter ridiculousness brokenness. No promises though ._.

• It’s fast – Hits the glorious 19 speed tier
• It’s fast and powerful – No other mon at this wonderful speed tier has a 120 BP STAB move backed by 18 attack (assuming 236 EVs and a neutral nature).
• It’s fast, powerful, AND versatile – We’re not considering just one set here. LO MixKrow hits everything DAMN hard, and is quite an easy mon to throw onto several team archetypes since the main goal of the set is quite simple: hit everything really, really hard. But it can run plenty of other sets; SubKrow eases prediction considerably for the user, since you can still whack the switch-in for considerable damage with Dark Pulse, Heat Wave, whatever… It can also pull off some other weird shit like CM, LucKrow... and they’re far from gimmicky since they still work pretty well; they’re just not quite as effective as the standard sets. OU banned Swagger, so assuming we follow suit, we won’t have to deal with the annoying SwagPlay variants… but Parafusion is still there <_> … anyway, it pulls off quite a few sets, exceedingly well.
• Its coverage isn’t weak either; Dark Pulse, Heat Wave, Sucker Punch, Hidden Power… etc. What’s more is that both of its attacking stats are commonly amplified by Life Orb, allowing Murkrow to smash the tier and bypass its checks with a bit of prediction.
• Sucker Punch in particular makes the task of revenge killing it extremely difficult. Traditional scarfers will have to eat a Sucker Punch before revenging it, doing well over 80% to Scarf Meditite for example. but sparktrain, you can just run Scarf Amaura on every team! no.

…sure it has checks, but then again, so did Sneasel (not saying Murkrow is more broken than Sneasel before I get called out). Murkrow isn’t one of those obviously broken mons that threaten to 6-0 an opposing team, but its sheer power and versatility allow it to smash through nearly any mon it chooses, even bypassing checks with some prediction, which in my opinion means it's broken.


Meditite is a completely different case, and my opinion has swayed from it being broken, to being not broken, to being broken… Anyway, after reading this entire thread, I’ve noticed a trend in the pro-ban and anti-ban arguments. Both seem to address that Meditite can bypass several of its “counters” with the correct coverage (e.g. Fire Punch for Honedge, Baton Pass for Wynaut, etc) but there seems to be a disconnect as to whether this is a quality that makes it broken, or one that limits Meditite. My personal opinion is that Meditite’s relatively large number of checks and limiting factors (16 speed, subpar bulk w/out Evio) makes the issue of it being able to bypass counters less of an issue, but I’d like to hear some thoughts as to this quality of Meditite’s.

Anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping Meditite around another round, even if it was only to give us more time to determine its broken- or not broken-ness. I've seriously never been so on the fence about a suspect 0_0

 

[Brambane]

I think its a good analogy as well, but the difference is that Swirlix could not be revenged once its gets its boosts. Meditite is different in that, no matter what move it picks, it can still be revenged. Misdreavus, Fletchling, etc. And as Corkscrew pointed out; those pokemon can take advantage of the switch to shift momentum for its team. I don't think there are any pokes who are made unusable due to Meditite.

I hate these kind of arguments because they are highly situational and dependent on the team and battle, but the majority of the time, it is worth it to sacrifice a little momentum to get a KO.

As a side note, saying that Meditite is easy to revenge kill is a lousy argument because it means that Meditite has already taken out a Pokemon, and therefore done its job. Unless your team is slow as shit or you have nothing to check Meditite (I hesitate to use the word "counter" around Meditite, because the sheer versatility and power of the Pokemon means that unless you know what set it is running, nothing is 100% safe to switch in, except maybe Wynaut), it probably isn't going to sweep you. I can say only once has Meditite swept me on the ladder, and that's because I missed with a Glare from Ekans.

But Meditite doesn't need to be a sweeper. Meditite is a nuker. What it does extremely well, to the point that I am inclined to ban Meditite, is weaken things tremendously or straight up KO them. Meditite sets up for sweepers better than it actually sweeps imo. The difference between Meditite and another Pokemon who fits this role, i.e. Cranidos, is that Meditite does this with incredible sustainability, and is therefore a lot harder to punish. It resists Stealth Rock, and damage from switching in can be healed through Drain Punch.

 

[TUO]

I hate these kind of arguments because they are highly situational and dependent on the team and battle, but the majority of the time, it is worth it to sacrifice a little momentum to get a KO.

As a side note, saying that Meditite is easy to revenge kill is a lousy argument because it means that Meditite has already taken out a Pokemon, and therefore done its job. Unless your team is slow as shit or you have nothing to check Meditite (I hesitate to use the word "counter" around Meditite, because the sheer versatility and power of the Pokemon means that unless you know what set it is running, nothing is 100% safe to switch in, except maybe Wynaut), it probably isn't going to sweep you. I can say only once has Meditite swept me on the ladder, and that's because I missed with a Glare from Ekans.

But Meditite doesn't need to be a sweeper. Meditite is a nuker. What it does extremely well, to the point that I am inclined to ban Meditite, is weaken things tremendously or straight up KO them. Meditite sets up for sweepers better than it actually sweeps imo. The difference between Meditite and another Pokemon who fits this role, i.e. Cranidos, is that Meditite does this with incredible sustainability, and is therefore a lot harder to punish. It resists Stealth Rock, and damage from switching in can be healed through Drain Punch.

To add on to what Dracoyoshi is saying, I think that people should combine both the fact that Meditite has no real "counters" that are not extremely niche; along with its bulk and switchin opportunities to see that Meditite can do an excellent job consistently. There are so many opportunities to get a kill in with Meditite, or at least weaken something quite badly. It can switchin to typical walls like Porygon/Ferroseed along with other offensive mons like Mienfoo, Timburr and Croagunk to get its kills. There are other pokemon that are good at doing damage with good defensive typings (Missy) but they all have some kind of serious weakness that keep it from being absolutely broken (Missy's case, Knock Off's relevance in the meta). You may think it's speed and/or 4MSS is what keeps it from being broken, but Meditite still has a way to somewhat remedy those with things like Priority, and how team support for Meditite is almost as strong as Meditite itself (since Meditite's partners aren't niche at all, they are also huge threats you need to take into consideration).

Meditite's minimal opportunity cost, power, utility to a team, and synergy with other top-tier threats makes me think Meditite is broken.