Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[gali]

sparktrain: I think that Meditite being able to beat its counters with the correct coverage move is simultaneously an asset and a liability. On one hand, it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent's Spritzee/Slowpoke/Honedge/Wynaut since it faces the possibility of being 2HKOed (or in Wynaut's case giving the opponent a free switch to something like Pawniard or Misdreavus). On the other hand, if you don't have the appropriate coverage move, this is very bad for the opponent, as their switchin will be forced to eat a STAB Moonblast or be paralyzed, Honedge will get a free Automotize, or their Meditite will be killed by Wynaut. In general, if you have the right coverage move, it will be very good for you; if you don't, it will be very bad for you. Meditite desperately want's to be able to run all of Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Poison Jab/Baton Pass in its 4th slot, but it can't and is consequently countered by 3/4 of the above mentioned Pokemon. However, you don't know which of the 3/4 wall it until it reveals its coverage move, and b then it may be too late. Iam almost certain that this will be the decisive issue in determining whether or not Meditite is broken. My opinion on this matter is still forming on this, but I'm leaning towards not broken due to its low speed for a sweeper, multitude of offensive checks, underwhelming defenses and typing, and the fact that the probability is on your side on this talking point.

Something else I'd like to talk about is how Meditite fares against the common Pawniard/Misdreavus core. A common matchup in the tier right now is Meditite vs. Pawniard, with a Misdreavus waiting in the wings on the Pawniard side. The gut reaction for the Pawniard side is to switch Misdreavus into the incoming Drain Punch which would have OHKOed Pawniard several times over. However, the Meditite user can predict this switch and opt for Zen Headbutt over Drain Punch, resulting in a clean 2HKO on Missy with Bullet Punch. This causes a mindgame which can easily determine the outcome of a match: either Meditite can use Drain Punch, resulting in either Pawniard dying or Missy coming in for free, or it can use Zen Headbutt, which beats Missy but risks Pawniard staying in and 2HKOing Meditite with Knock off + Sucker Punch. Whichever side wins the prediction battle gains a LOT of momentum and often takes the match. What do you guys think about this matchup?

 

[boo836]

As I previously mentioned, Meditite generally doesn't fear Missy coming in on the Drain Punch, as any good team has a way of dealing with Misdreavus. Having less to fear, the Neditite can Drain Punch, and Pawniard realises that. The switch to Misdreavus is obvious, and tbh places a lot more pressure on the Pawniard user than the Meditite user.

 

[TUO]

Something else I'd like to talk about is how Meditite fares against the common Pawniard/Misdreavus core. A common matchup in the tier right now is Meditite vs. Pawniard, with a Misdreavus waiting in the wings on the Pawniard side. The gut reaction for the Pawniard side is to switch Misdreavus into the incoming Drain Punch which would have OHKOed Pawniard several times over. However, the Meditite user can predict this switch and opt for Zen Headbutt over Drain Punch, resulting in a clean 2HKO on Missy with Bullet Punch. This causes a mindgame which can easily determine the outcome of a match: either Meditite can use Drain Punch, resulting in either Pawniard dying or Missy coming in for free, or it can use Zen Headbutt, which beats Missy but risks Pawniard staying in and 2HKOing Meditite with Knock off + Sucker Punch. Whichever side wins the prediction battle gains a LOT of momentum and often takes the match. What do you guys think about this matchup?

This matchup is very common, it is very stressful on the Missy/Pawniard core because it imposes a 50/50 coinflip prediction game on both of the Missy/Pawniard user's offensive option. If Meditite mispredicts he can just switch out to something that can switch to Pawn (You should have something) or have the luxury of having another coinflip with the Pawniard on the Tits team if Misdreavus is out. However if you mispredict with the Missy/Pawn core, you're pretty much fucked or have quite a large disadvantage through the match. This kind of coinflip prediction is not very good for a meta imo, and although other mons impose that as well, that's another unhealthy aspect of Meditite. It definitely is part of "Is Meditite making LC Unfun?" It doesn't, but it can be an annoyance.

 

[Heysup]

I think that Meditite being able to beat its counters with the correct coverage move is simultaneously an asset and a liability. On one hand, it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent's Spritzee/Slowpoke/Honedge/Wynaut since it faces the possibility of being 2HKOed (or in Wynaut's case giving the opponent a free switch to something like Pawniard or Misdreavus). On the other hand, if you don't have the appropriate coverage move, this is very bad for the opponent, as their switchin will be forced to eat a STAB Moonblast or be paralyzed, Honedge will get a free Automotize, or their Meditite will be killed by Wynaut. In general, if you have the right coverage move, it will be very good for you; if you don't, it will be very bad for you. Meditite desperately want's to be able to run all of Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Poison Jab/Baton Pass in its 4th slot, but it can't and is consequently countered by 3/4 of the above mentioned Pokemon. However, you don't know which of the 3/4 wall it until it reveals its coverage move, and b then it may be too late. Iam almost certain that this will be the decisive issue in determining whether or not Meditite is broken. My opinion on this matter is still forming on this, but I'm leaning towards not broken due to its low speed for a sweeper, multitude of offensive checks, underwhelming defenses and typing, and the fact that the probability is on your side on this talking point.

This is what has been irriating me about people throwing the access to certain moves as being a liability. If Meditite's only four moves were like Drain Punch / Psycho Cut / Poison Jab / Bullet Punch there would be absolutely zero argument for having 4MSS it would just simply be countered by Honedge, Wynaut, and Slowpoke and that would be the only argument. Now, since it CAN run Fire Punch and Thunder Punch it can get by those counters people somehow figure that's a liability. Dat fallacy bro. This isn't a perspective thing its a logic thing. No matter how you slice it, having those moves is not a negative argument. Having counters, bypassable counters, is the only remotely negative argument in the topic of counters.

So cut that out :)

 

[sparktrain]

Something else I'd like to talk about is how Meditite fares against the common Pawniard/Misdreavus core. A common matchup in the tier right now is Meditite vs. Pawniard, with a Misdreavus waiting in the wings on the Pawniard side. The gut reaction for the Pawniard side is to switch Misdreavus into the incoming Drain Punch which would have OHKOed Pawniard several times over. However, the Meditite user can predict this switch and opt for Zen Headbutt over Drain Punch, resulting in a clean 2HKO on Missy with Bullet Punch. This causes a mindgame which can easily determine the outcome of a match: either Meditite can use Drain Punch, resulting in either Pawniard dying or Missy coming in for free, or it can use Zen Headbutt, which beats Missy but risks Pawniard staying in and 2HKOing Meditite with Knock off + Sucker Punch. Whichever side wins the prediction battle gains a LOT of momentum and often takes the match. What do you guys think about this matchup?

The matchup is certainly in Meditite's favor. Since Meditite can just switch to a Missy check if Missy comes in on the Drain Punch, the "safe" move for Meditite is to click Drain Punch. Meditite can also opt to predict the switch and use Zen Headbutt. Pawniard's "safe" move is to switch out to Missy to absorb the Drain Punch. Pawniard can also predict the Meditite user's prediction and stay in and use Knock Off.

Scenario 1: Meditite user plays safe, Pawniard user plays safe
Pawniard switches to Missy, Meditite uses Drain Punch, Meditite is forced to switch
Result: The Meditite user's Missy check is forced to switch-in. It's possible that no net momentum gain occurs for the Missy/Pawniard user, if the Missy switch-in happens to be immune to Shadow Ball/WoW (although Missy will usually set up a Sub/Nasty Plot). The Meditite/Pawniard match-up/mind games will likely occur again later in the battle, and the Missy/Pawniard user will need to keep predicting correctly to maintain their net gain in this encounter.

Scenario 2: Meditite user predicts, Pawniard user plays safe
Pawniard switches to Missy, Meditite uses Zen Headbutt, Meditite can KO with Bullet Punch next turn
Result: Sucks for the Missy/Pawniard user

Scenario 3: Meditite user plays safe, Pawniard user predicts
Pawniard stays in, possibly does some damage first with Sucker Punch or Knock Off, Meditite uses Drain Punch for the KO and has its health restored.
Result: Sucks for the Missy/Pawniard user

Scenario 4: Meditite user predicts, Pawniard user predicts
Pawniard stays in like a fool, Pawniard takes a Zen Headbutt to the face, Pawniard uses Knock Off, Pawniard can KO with Sucker Punch next turn
Result: Sucks for the Meditite user

So there are four reasonable scenarios and outcomes that can occur (not including stuff like Pawniard staying in and getting a Sucker Punch crit, or Zen Headbutt missing). Two of these result in a huge momentum shift in favor of the Meditite user, one results in a huge momentum shift in favor of the Missy/Pawniard user, and one results in a slight momentum shift in favor of the Missy/Pawniard user. We can conclude from these scenarios that the Meditite user indeed has the upper hand.

Now let's replace Missy with Honedge. Honedge is definitely a much safer switch-in to Meditite since it is immune to Drain Punch and resists Zen Headbutt. BUT, this switch-in is more easily taken advantage of by Meditite (if it so happens to run Fire Punch) because Honedge feels much more safe coming in. Meditite can do this with several other switch-ins, who just have to hope it's not running Thunder Punch, Poison Jab, or whatever when they come in.

Toa Tahu addressed that "...Meditite being able to beat its counters with the correct coverage move is simultaneously an asset and a liability."
Heysup stated "...since it CAN run Fire Punch and Thunder Punch it can get by those counters people somehow figure that's a liability... No matter how you slice it, having those moves is not a negative argument. Having counters, bypassable counters, is the only remotely negative argument in the topic of counters."

Meditite can't run Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Poison Jab, and Baton Pass on the same set.
Meditite, however, has the ability to bypass its counters if it possesses the correct move.

This brings me to my earlier question, and I'd like to open the floor for discussion on this: Does Meditite's ability to bypass its counters with the correct move (even if it can't run all these moves at once), coupled with its numerous positive traits, push it over the edge in LC? Please discuss and share your opinions.

 

[Heysup]

I don't think the movepool to bypass its counters is even close to what's "broken" about Meditite considering most of the "counters" are so unthreatening that it doesn't even need to run any of those moves to be successful in addition to how unimpressive that really is without considering the bulk or basic power. I would say the movepool argument just weakens the counters argument and that's all it really needs to do.

 

[sparktrain]

I don't think the movepool to bypass its counters is even close to what's "broken" about Meditite considering most of the "counters" are so unthreatening that it doesn't even need to run any of those moves to be successful in addition to how unimpressive that really is without considering the bulk or basic power. I would say the movepool argument just weakens the counters argument and that's all it really needs to do.

I probably didn't phrase my discussion point in the best way (it's late here <_>), since I agree that it isn't the sole reason that Meditite is possibly broken. What I meant to say was does this fact coupled with Meditite's other strong traits push it over the edge. Other pro-ban/anti-ban arguments have hit a bit of a stalemate at this point, and this particular discussion point hasn't been agreed upon by many yet.

Edited my wording slightly in my previous post to reflect this.

 

[Pancham]

How does that change the fact that Meditite can overcome it's checks/counters just like Swirlix? Like I said all of those are variations of two sets which overcome certain pokemon and get walled by certain pokemon. Meditite can use it's physical movepool to overcome physical walls, it doesn't have to run sp attacking moves to exploit physical's average or below average special bulk. Just like swirlix only like two moves are are extremely recommended on Meditite and two more are left on things you want to beat.

Well let's see. Maybe it's the fact that Meditite is a wallbreaker, and as such, is supposed to do this? Swirlix was a sweeper, the fact that a sweeper could easily overcome 95% of its checks/counters just by using a certain move over another is huge. However, Meditite is much different; Meditite uses one move over another and loses one/two check/counters, but then gains another one because it's not using another coverage moe. I am not seeing why we are comparing a wallbreaker to a sweeper, when wallbreakers are supposed to be able to overcome certain switch-ins by using a particular coverage move. I'd be more willing to accept the comparison of Meditite to Sneasel than I would Meditite to a banned sweeper, as both are wallbreakers, both are (were) very good wallbreakers in a particular metagame.

EDIT: Thank you, PumpHead for seeing that Meditite and Swirlix are completely different and should never be compared. -.-

Does Meditite's ability to bypass its counters with the correct move (even if it can't run all these moves at once), coupled with its numerous positive traits, push it over the edge in LC?

No, all this means is that Meditite is a good wallbreaker. Meditite may have the ability to use certain coverage moves enabling it to beat certain threats, but while doing so, this also means it loses to certain other things. A Meditite with DPunch, ZenButt, Fire and Thunder Punch will always lose to weakened mons that are faster than it, like a Misdreavus with 5% HP, because it lacks priority. This also causes it to also be beaten by Wynaut, Elgyem, LO Abra, LO Gastly, and so many other things. Meditite's ability to overcome would-be checks/counters only means it is good at what it does. Should we, then, ban any pokemon that has the ability to wallbreak extremely effectively? If so, then I look forward to our next test in which Misdreavus, Pawniard, Gastly and Abra will be discussed.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'm not going to use pictures this time because apparently that causes people to disregard the content.

Meditite sets have counters. You can not have a pokemon that 100% reliably switches into any Meditite set.

This is a fair point, which yields this logic:

Meditite does not have reliable counters because it can use moves that allow it get around all of them. However, it can only run four moves on a set so the options are cramped. There are many variables that can prevent Meditite from being offensively potent in battle, depending on which moves it runs (and doesn't run) and which counters it runs into. While this does indeed mean that Meditite has the capability of getting around all of them by altering its moveset, the fact that it will oftentimes lack the move it needs when faced by something important holds it back. Meditite can only be a somewhat overpowering force if all the conditions are satisfied in battle depending on the limitations it places upon itself with the moves it decides not to run.

Meditite is countered by Slowpoke IF it doesn't have Thunder Punch.
Meditite is countered by Spritzee IF it doesn't have Poison Jab or LO Zen Headbutt.
Meditite is countered by Honedge IF it doesn't have Fire Punch.
Meditite is countered by Exeggcute IF it doesn't have Poison Jab or Fire Punch.
Meditite is countered by Elgyem IF it doesn't have LO High Jump Kick (only an 11.3% chance without hazards, not too reliable).
Meditite is countered by Drowzee IF it doesn't have Life Orb, and even then, it only has a chance of 2HKOing with a non-STAB move.
Meditite is countered by Wynaut IF it doesn't have Baton Pass.

I am okay with it being viewed as "Meditite doesn't have counters, Meditite sets have counters". That really brings to the forefront how many different things it needs and only gets four.

Baltoy can't really do much offensively and I already acknowledged that in this thread before people felt the need to tell me, like I didn't know. Meditite can only 2HKO Baltoy with Ice Punch or LO High Jump Kick, as it resists every single attack Meditite can think about carrying in the current metagame. What Baltoy is useful for is team support and/or disruption. It has access to Trick to cripple switch-ins that come in as Meditite flees. It also has access to dual screens (Reflect pretty much neutralizes Pure Power), Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin.

Most of them suck balls. Exeggcute is great and is underrated but Elgyem, Baltoy, and Drowsee? In theory Baltoy is ok until you remember its attack stats are balls and it's the most set up bait Pkmn of all time.

Trick cripples setup sweepers such as Misdreavus and Scraggy that think they can come in freely to set up for a sweep, giving them a Choice item as they switch in and before they can act. If they decide to switch out, this gives Baltoy yet another free turn to use a support move. If they decide to kill off Baltoy instead, the player using Baltoy gets potentially another a free turn, and a ton of momentum and can bring in a Pokemon that resists or is immune to the move that the enemy is now locked into. This is a win-win situation if setup sweepers attempt to take advantage of Baltoy's presence once it gets in against Meditite, regardless of Baltoy having to faint in the process. Memento, for example, causes the user to faint in the process, but is a hell of a move that really shifts momentum. Same thing with Healing Wish. That principle also applies here.

Baltoy doesn't last forever and will eventually end up dying without accomplishing much damage-wise, but Trick and its support moves can be game-changers. It would be ignorant to call this sacrificing a Pokemon when its job isn't to live forever. It has many things it can do to help its team and punish the opponent, with the turn it gets as non-Life Orb Meditite flees. Now, if the Meditite in question is in fact Life Orb Meditite and does in fact hit Baltoy with High Jump Kick on the switch-in, it is ruined. But it must have those things and also select the right move in order to do so. Please note that I am not over here just pushing the shit out of Baltoy (I much prefer Wynaut, Elgyem, and Exeggcute), but I have used it to good effect thanks to Meditite's existence, and it is a great team supporter if used properly.


Solosis (105 base Special Attack) is a new potential Meditite counter I tried after speaking with Dracoyoshi8 on IRC, and it actually counters Meditite if it doesn't have Life Orb. It does basically the same thing as Elgyem, but its advantage over Elgyem is that it gets Regenerator like Slowpoke and can still resist both of Meditite's STABs without being weak to Thunder Punch like Slowpoke is. The catch is that Solosis is significantly less bulky than Elgyem and is 2HKOed by any elemental punch Life Orb Meditite uses. Elgyem is much better but Solosis can work against the Eviolite set perfectly and punish switch-ins with Thunder Wave or HP Fighting, as Elgyem also does.

Let me also reiterate that Elgyem (as well as Solosis) has Recover, which grants it the same advantages here as Slowpoke without being weak to Thunder Punch. Elgyem is actually a more reliable counter to Meditite than Slowpoke in the current meta because Meditite cannot hit it super effectively. Slowpoke has Regenerator and Scald over Elgyem, but Elgyem has Analytic, which makes its STAB Psychic sting like hell against even neutral targets, without even requiring Special Attack investment. People only say Elgyem sucks because they haven't tried it; it's true that it would be less viable without Meditite's existence but it forms a reliable core with Trubbish whether it faces Meditite or not. I'll be reiterating that in this post as well.


By looking at these statistics, one might think "Oh, well Meditite can beat a lot of that shit if it uses Life Orb and High Jump Kick, which is what people are really using anyway".

According to LC C&C in Meditite's analysis writeup (QC 3/3), Eviolite is the most common and viable set. The LC community and LC Quality Control have already decided that Eviolite Meditite is more viable than Life Orb Meditite, which means that its most common and viable set, by definition, is the one that prevents it from 2HKOing more of its potential counters.

Also, keep in mind that by running Life Orb, Meditite is OHKOed by everything that Eviolite allows it to survive, and that list is quite extensive. This might not be that big of an issue for Meditite if it weren't so slow, but its defensive limitations do hold significant weight here in exchange for what it gains offensively by using Life Orb, and it gives an opponent plenty of opportunities for free damage or setup as it keeps having to switch out because of this.

so i have the same opinions as heysup. murkrow is leaving like i said last gen. meditite i might just ban because only by looking at briyella pictures im reminded its counters are really not existant. sure you can revenge it but that implies something died which isnt really healthy.

Lots of Pokemon in Little Cup are subject to being revenged after they knock something out, so I'm not seeing what would make that unhealthy only in this situation; that is a part of Pokemon. By Meditite knocking a Pokemon out, it actually becomes an enabler for two of Little Cup's most threatening setup sweepers to come in and shift momentum.

Misdreavus and Fletchling are two prominent threats in Little Cup that would be prominent threats even if Meditite did not exist, which means they would be found on a good number of teams either way and also means they do not solely exist for revenging Meditite and are not forced onto teams because of Meditite. With that in consideration, Meditite killing something gives one of them the chance to come in afterward and immediately apply a ton of pressure, and this is especially true with Meditite's Life Orb set because it is guaranteed to die to Missy's Shadow Ball or Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics if it stays in. If it thinks about switching out here to be safe, that comes with letting Misdreavus get a free Nasty Plot boost or letting Fletchling get a free Swords Dance boost. Both of these Pokemon severely punish Meditite's existence in this manner and can quite possibly come back and score two or three KOs to Meditite's one as a result.

One might say "Well a smart player isn't going to kill something with Meditite while an opposing Missy or Fletch is alive and in good health so this won't happen for good players".

Well, anyone with an idealism like this that defines how Meditite should be played is already acknowledging the limitations and consequences I just pointed out.

"Don't kill anything with Meditite until Missy and Fletch are dead" translates to "Meditite is held back by common threats and requires help from teammates in order to be effective".


Anyway, this is an awful lot of limits and conditions that must be met for Meditite to be considered a problem, so I don't find it to be overwhelming. The Eviolite set misses out on several important 2HKOs against Meditite-resistant Pokemon but has more survivability; the Life Orb set scores many important 2HKOs that the Eviolite set misses out on, but is defensively horrible due to its sub-par Speed and lack of bulk, which is easily exploitable. It can be said that Meditite's enemies are disadvantaged since they don't know which item it's running, but it's easy to tell whether it's Eviolite or Life Orb by either seeing it attack once or by gauging the damage it takes from any direct attack. Choice Scarf sets shouldn't be switching into anything except Fighting-types (and even then, only if it has to really because taking a Knock Off would suck) and its item is also revealed most of the time once it attacks, because a large amount of the metagame outspeeds it naturally. After discovering Meditite's item, a player can identify many of the set's limitations and can process that information to formulate a plan of action against it, whether the player has a full-on counter that works against it or not. Meditite has its moves that it wants the most as well, it's not super unpredictable just because it has options. It wants to beat Slowpoke and Spritzee a lot more than it wants to beat Honedge. Players have preferences that open up opportunities for it to be walled by important Pokemon. I mean, running Baton Pass gives Meditite a handicap if it doesn't face Wynaut. It can't use the move for dry-passing/switch advantage because it's so slow and prone to damage that it would rather switch out manually so that it doesn't get hit. The only set that could comfortably use Baton Pass for switch advantage is the Choice Scarf set, and it already runs Trick, leaving it only two options for attacks. If it doesn't run Trick, it cannot cripple its switch-ins.

sparktrain: I think that Meditite being able to beat its counters with the correct coverage move is simultaneously an asset and a liability.

This is the meeting point of Meditite's pros and cons, I believe. The asset is that Meditite has ACCESS to so many moves that allow it to get around things that would wall or counter it otherwise. The liability is that Meditite ONLY gets to choose four, and it needs so many for its own security.

Have any of you ever entered a battle with a fresh team you just made and then discovered "Damn, I have a huge weakness to X. I need to add Y or Z to my team now so it won't be a problem"? Well, that is perfectly normal. Teams with no Flying resists (like blarajan's Wynaut/Scraggy/Mienfoo/Carvanha/Trubbish/Porygon SPL team, so yea such teams exist and can work) are obviously prone to have problems with Fletchling/Vullaby. Teams with Fighting-types, Vullaby, and no Fairy resists are prone to have problems with Spritzee. IT'S A NORMAL THING. For new players and experienced ones alike, if you have a team that is weak to Meditite, add something to it that can deal with it. There is nothing different about that here, except that it's being said that all of Meditite's counters suck. Yet despite that, I have yet to see any evidence presented that they suck. I'm over here providing calcs and insight and all I am seeing on the other side is "yea but they suck" and that is simply too dismissive and not insightful enough to make a point. I think the merits of these Pokemon should be considered before hitting them with simple statements such as "yea but they suck" (while providing no tangible information), which other people blindly agree with because they also never tried them and don't feel like stepping out of their comfort zone to do so.

The most reliable answers are bulky Psychic-types, but let's rattle off a list of good bulky Psychic-types aside from Slowpoke in LC.

Yeah.

Honedge is also a pretty solid answer. But Honedge and bulky Psychic-types are all weak to Knock Off and Pursuit, which means that a decent player can handle them really easily without even going out of their way to do so. When half of the tier runs Knock Off, it makes it a lot harder to check such an insanely strong physical attacker.

I think the point of Knock Off is that your Meditite counter and your Fighting-type counter are not the same Pokemon, you need both.

I know I've already covered this, but I'm going to revisit it because it's very important and needs to be emphasized. +Defense Elgyem beats Meditite and Mienfoo. Elgyem + Trubbish core beats Meditite + Knock Off user. There is no problem there. Sure, either side can predict/mispredict to affect the outcome, but it's not anything desperate on Elgyem's part, nor is it unbalanced.

Are these the arguments for why Meditite's "would-be counters" (mainly Psychic-types) are bad? I'm going to copypaste a segment from my other post to bring something back to the light:

Also, since a lot of people keep saying that Fighting-types with Knock Off and Meditite cannot be dealt with by using the same Pokemon, I'd like to reiterate that +Defense-natured Elgyem beats them both whether it loses its item in the process or not. Wynaut beats both of these as well, with the exception of Mienfoo because of U-turn (though it would preferably like to kill Meditite first so that its item will be intact before it begins doing its job). Wish Drowzee also beats both Meditite and Fighting-types with Knock Off if played correctly. It needs to be remembered that Knock Off from a Fighting-type hurts a lot less against a Psychic-type than a STAB Psychic-type move against a Fighting-type. That's not to say that Psychic-types can just switch into Knock Off willy-nilly, but you get the idea.

It also keeps being mentioned that Pawniard is a potent teammate for Meditite that threatens the Psychic-types that wall Psychic- and Fighting-type attacks, and that this fact supposedly makes these counters a lot less significant since they're "all weak to Knock Off". While this is true, Pawniard has to worry about being hit with Thunder Wave, or worse, a Fighting-type move, on the switch-in, and the Psychic-types acknowledge this threat and will be packing Fighting-type moves for this very reason.

But since teammates for Meditite that allow it to beat its counters keep coming up, let's pair our Psychic-type with a teammate of its own and see how this plays out:

Meditite's counters are generally Pokemon that are Psychic-type and are thus weak to Knock Off, making them inherently vulnerable to common users of this move, including Mienfoo and Pawniard.

Elgyem walls and defeats Meditite one on one, but is threatened greatly by Pawniard. Paired with Trubbish, however, it has a teammate that soaks up Knock Off without losing its item and can continuously restore its health by Recycling its Berry Juice. In exchange, Trubbish's weakness to Meditite's Psychic-type STAB is sponged by Elgyem. Mienfoo is completely walled by Trubbish, Pawniard will eventually be hit by either Drain Punch or HP Fighting, and Meditite will lose to Elgyem.

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Def / 236 HP
Relaxed Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-28 (95.2 - 133.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

-----

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO

236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keep in mind as well that Elgyem gets to hit something for free as Meditite switches out, and that the Analytic boost is applied in this scenario.


Life Orb Meditite has an 11.3% chance to 2HKO Elgyem with High Jump Kick, and Elgyem has Recover.

I believe we can think outside the box a little more instead of jumping to conclusions about something being broken simply because you haven't stopped to consider using something that can deal with it. Meditite increases the viability of some good Psychic-types, and Trubbish, a great Pokemon in the current meta in its own right, protects them from Knock Off while they also wall Trubbish's weakness to Psychic. I find that this forms balance with the previously proposed issue of Meditite's counters all being made supposedly insignificant due to Knock Off.

Oh, but don't take my word for it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-106918857
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-106931958
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-106962271

I don't find Meditite unmanageable. I find that there are a handful of Pokemon who can handle it that people are either unaware of or are too skeptical/afraid to try out. :)

 

[Brambane]

Misdreavus and Fletchling are two prominent threats in Little Cup that would be prominent threats even if Meditite did not exist, which means they would be found on a good number of teams either way and also means they do not solely exist for revenging Meditite and are not forced onto teams because of Meditite. With that in consideration, Meditite killing something gives one of them the chance to come in afterward and immediately apply a ton of pressure, and this is especially true with Meditite's Life Orb set because it is guaranteed to die to Missy's Shadow Ball or Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics if it stays in. If it thinks about switching out here to be safe, that comes with letting Misdreavus get a free Nasty Plot boost or letting Fletchling get a free Swords Dance boost. Both of these Pokemon severely punish Meditite's existence in this manner and can quite possibly come back and score two or three KOs to Meditite's one as a result.

One might say "Well a smart player isn't going to kill something with Meditite while an opposing Missy or Fletch is alive and in good health so this won't happen for good players".

Well, anyone with an idealism like this that defines how Meditite should be played is already acknowledging the limitations and consequences I just pointed out.

"Don't kill anything with Meditite until Missy and Fletch are dead" translates to "Meditite is held back by common threats and requires help from teammates in order to be effective".

I don't think this a valid argument. Whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing that Meditite lets something like Misdreavus come in is entirely battle and team dependent. I kill something with Meditite, Fletchling comes in. Great. I switch to Tirtouga. I kill something with Meditite, Misdreavus comes in. Wonderful. I switch to Stunky. Hell, if I manage to kill something like Timburr, it is totally worth it to allow something like Fletchling in because I just put my Pawniard in a wonderful position. Of course, I could predict Fletchling using Swords Dance and kill it with Meditite.

As a side note, if Solosis is 2HKOed by elemental punches (or poison jab), then it is not a Meditite counter. It can be a counter to Fake Out / Bullet Punch / Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch Meditite, but how do you know that before the battle starts?

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I don't think this a valid argument. Whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing that Meditite lets something like Misdreavus come in is entirely battle and team dependent. I kill something with Meditite, Fletchling comes in. Great. I switch to Tirtouga. I kill something with Meditite, Misdreavus comes in. Wonderful. I switch to Stunky. Hell, if I manage to kill something like Timburr, it is totally worth it to allow something like Fletchling in because I just put my Pawniard in a wonderful position. Of course, I could predict Fletchling using Swords Dance and kill it with Meditite.

As a side note, if Solosis is 2HKOed by elemental punches (or poison jab), then it is not a Meditite counter. It can be a counter to Fake Out / Bullet Punch / Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch Meditite, but how do you know that before the battle starts?

This does not disprove the huge advantage gained by Misdreavus/Fletchling in that scenario. Of course it's not a big problem if you happen to have exactly what you need to deal with it after switching Meditite out, and that's the same case in a lot of situations with a lot of Pokemon. Suppose you don't have exactly what you need when this happens.

As for Solosis, I already outlined its shortcomings for that role. It counters the Eviolite set, but the Life Orb set 2HKOs it with en elemental punch (which would also mean Poison Jab). I omitted no important information in describing this. You won't know which set Meditite is running as soon as the battle starts, but we all know the Eviolite set is the most common/viable as per LC C&C, and thus it is to be expected more than the other sets, which has enough substantial objective validity. But if you guess wrong, you guess wrong. That happens in Pokemon.

But it's just like how +1 Scraggy can beat Murkrow with High Jump Kick, but not ScarfKrow. You won't know it's running that if you Dragon Dance as Murkrow comes in, but you'll know it for the rest of the match following that and can act to defeat it by other means. Same general scenario, different Pokemon.

 

[Brambane]

This does not disprove the huge advantage gained by Misdreavus/Fletchling in that scenario. Of course it's not a big problem if you happen to have exactly what you need to deal with it after switching Meditite out, and that's the same case in a lot of situations with a lot of Pokemon. Suppose you don't have exactly what you need when this happens.

What advantage is even gained? They get to come in for free and threaten Meditite? Is this an advantage if the opponent has a counter to Misdreavus/Fletchling? It's just too situational.

Hell, if I could use your argument to defend Sneasel. So what if Sneasel just KOed my Honedge? Now I can bring in Timburr/Croagunk/whatever!

 

[Goddess Briyella]

What advantage is even gained? They get to come in for free and threaten Meditite? Is this an advantage if the opponent has a counter to Misdreavus/Fletchling? It's just too situational.

Hell, if I could use your argument to defend Sneasel. So what if Sneasel just KOed my Honedge? Now I can bring in Timburr/Croagunk/whatever!

Misdreavus and Fletchling are much faster and more threatening than Timburr and Croagunk, and are therefore notably more capable of pulling off a sweep, not simply revenging. +2 STAB Shadow Ball from a 19 Speed Pokemon and +2 STAB itemless Acrobatics backed by Gale Wings are disastrous. These are the types of common threats that Meditite is punished by. And you won't always have exactly what you need to stop them from tearing your team up at that point, just as Meditite won't always have what it needs in many cases. It's easy to say "Oh well I have this" in a thread where the actual limits and boundaries cannot be strictly defined like they are in battle when things are happening.

Timburr/Croagunk could only attempt to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave Sneasel as revenge in your given example. +2 Misdreavus and +2 Fletchling murder whole teams.

 

[Brambane]

That is exactly my point. It is literally just as easy to say "Misdreavus and Fletchling will punish Meditite" where the actual limits and boundaries cannot be strictly defined like they are in battle when things are happening.

I am pretty sure Timburr and Croagunk can do a lot more than Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. Like use Knock Off. Throw up a Substitute. Get some recovery with Drain Punch. I didn't say they had to go for a sweep, and it is not always optimal to try to sweep just because you have the turn to set up. Also, +2 Misdreavus and +2 Fletchling CAN murder whole teams. It's not like every time one of them switches in for free it's "WELL GG I'M FUCKED."

 

[Artemisa]

I am pretty sure Timburr and Croagunk can do a lot more than Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. Like use Knock Off. Throw up a Substitute. Get some recovery with Drain Punch. I didn't say they had to go for a sweep, and it is not always optimal to try to sweep just because you have the turn to set up. Also, +2 Misdreavus and +2 Fletchling CAN murder whole teams. It's not like every time one of them switches in for free it's "WELL GG I'M FUCKED."

Adding on to what Dracoyoshi8 said, you can't also assume Fletchling for example will get +2, the safest play is using acrobatics. If you do anything other than Acro, you risk being KO'd by Meditite if it calls your bluff. Missy won't like taking about 60% from Zen, aswell. Also yeah there are other ways of of taking advantage while you attempt to force out a mon, it isn't just sweeping.

 

[prem]

Lots of Pokemon in Little Cup are subject to being revenged after they knock something out, so I'm not seeing what would make that unhealthy only in this situation; that is a part of Pokemon. By Meditite knocking a Pokemon out, it actually becomes an enabler for two of Little Cup's most threatening setup sweepers to come in and shift momentum.

Misdreavus and Fletchling are two prominent threats in Little Cup that would be prominent threats even if Meditite did not exist, which means they would be found on a good number of teams either way and also means they do not solely exist for revenging Meditite and are not forced onto teams because of Meditite. With that in consideration, Meditite killing something gives one of them the chance to come in afterward and immediately apply a ton of pressure, and this is especially true with Meditite's Life Orb set because it is guaranteed to die to Missy's Shadow Ball or Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics if it stays in. If it thinks about switching out here to be safe, that comes with letting Misdreavus get a free Nasty Plot boost or letting Fletchling get a free Swords Dance boost. Both of these Pokemon severely punish Meditite's existence in this manner and can quite possibly come back and score two or three KOs to Meditite's one as a result.

One might say "Well a smart player isn't going to kill something with Meditite while an opposing Missy or Fletch is alive and in good health so this won't happen for good players".

Well, anyone with an idealism like this that defines how Meditite should be played is already acknowledging the limitations and consequences I just pointed out.

"Don't kill anything with Meditite until Missy and Fletch are dead" translates to "Meditite is held back by common threats and requires help from teammates in order to be effective".


Anyway, this is an awful lot of limits and conditions that must be met for Meditite to be considered a problem, so I don't find it to be overwhelming. The Eviolite set misses out on several important 2HKOs against Meditite-resistant Pokemon but has more survivability; the Life Orb set scores many important 2HKOs that the Eviolite set misses out on, but is defensively horrible due to its sub-par Speed and lack of bulk, which is easily exploitable. It can be said that Meditite's enemies are disadvantaged since they don't know which item it's running, but it's easy to tell whether it's Eviolite or Life Orb by either seeing it attack once or by gauging the damage it takes from any direct attack. Choice Scarf sets shouldn't be switching into anything except Fighting-types (and even then, only if it has to really because taking a Knock Off would suck) and its item is also revealed most of the time once it attacks, because a large amount of the metagame outspeeds it naturally. After discovering Meditite's item, a player can identify many of the set's limitations and can process that information to formulate a plan of action against it, whether the player has a full-on counter that works against it or not. Meditite has its moves that it wants the most as well, it's not super unpredictable just because it has options. It wants to beat Slowpoke and Spritzee a lot more than it wants to beat Honedge. Players have preferences that open up opportunities for it to be walled by important Pokemon. I mean, running Baton Pass gives Meditite a handicap if it doesn't face Wynaut. It can't use the move for dry-passing/switch advantage because it's so slow and prone to damage that it would rather switch out manually so that it doesn't get hit. The only set that could comfortably use Baton Pass for switch advantage is the Choice Scarf set, and it already runs Trick, leaving it only two options for attacks. If it doesn't run Trick, it cannot cripple its switch-ins.

its unhealthy because it does it too well. it literally kills everything besides its few counters (most of them are shitty), it heals itself in the process so that if you fail to ohko it its not dying. you an say "a lot of pokemon are subject to revenge killing" but none of them have pssive healing, none of them have the bulk meditite have, none of them hit nearly as hard as meditite.

talking about prediction games is literally the worst thing. you bring missy in on my meditite so ou can nasty plot? oh what if i know you are gonna np so i zhb then bulletp unch OH WAIT YOUR CHECK DIED. if you attack then i can switch. dont mention prediction games its stupid and not even a viable arguement.

what do you mean a good player wont kill something with meditite while th eopponent has a missy or a fletch? what are you afraid of, getting a free kill on something (including the "checks" missy and fletchling). you cant swtich anything into meditite without winning a 50/50 with missy or pawn cause if you guess wrong you die. its not held back by them, its just revengable after you kill something. a pokemon that is almost GUARANTEED a free kill just for the opponent to maybe kill it in return is not fair, especially when it can just constantly do that while your check has to be a reactive response to something dying.


also pictures dont make your posts not read its the unnecessary amount of fluff combined with the not concise writing that pushes people away from wanting to read it. write towards your audience instead of complain that your audience wont read essays on their spare time.


edit: oh i didnt proper quote. Goddess Briyella

 

[Bughouse]

I'm staying out of this discussion in general because I don't feel I'm well equipped to be on the rotating council.

That said, I feel a need to respond to this notion that different sets have different counters. That's true. But to say Slowpoke counters Meditite without Thunder Punch, and therefore counters Meditite with Poison Jab is just a bad argument. There is a 30% chance to get the Poison which will thoroughly limit Slowpoke's ability to counter it throughout the remainder of the match, as well as the fact that Slowpoke is practically a free switch-in for a Chinchou to restart the momentum train all over again. This is further exacerbated by the ease of setting up hazards with Dwebble that then even further limits Slowpoke's or Elgyem's or anything except for Honedge, Baltoy, or Wynaut's ability to counter Meditite with Poison Jab.

 

[Heysup]

I'm not going to use pictures this time because apparently that causes people to disregard the content.

Rude. But also potentially true ;)

Meditite does not have reliable counters because it can use moves that allow it get around all of them. However, it can only run four moves on a set so the options are cramped. There are many variables that can prevent Meditite from being offensively potent in battle, depending on which moves it runs (and doesn't run) and which counters it runs into. While this does indeed mean that Meditite has the capability of getting around all of them by altering its moveset, the fact that it will oftentimes lack the move it needs when faced by something important holds it back. Meditite can only be a somewhat overpowering force if all the conditions are satisfied in battle depending on the limitations it places upon itself with the moves it decides not to run.

Meditite is countered by Slowpoke IF it doesn't have Thunder Punch.
Meditite is countered by Spritzee IF it doesn't have Poison Jab or LO Zen Headbutt.
Meditite is countered by Honedge IF it doesn't have Fire Punch.
Meditite is countered by Exeggcute IF it doesn't have Poison Jab or Fire Punch.
Meditite is countered by Elgyem IF it doesn't have LO High Jump Kick (only an 11.3% chance without hazards, not too reliable).
Meditite is countered by Drowzee IF it doesn't have Life Orb, and even then, it only has a chance of 2HKOing with a non-STAB move.
Meditite is countered by Wynaut IF it doesn't have Baton Pass.

I have a few issues with this. First, I bolded/underlined/italicized the part that I think this entire argument should start and stop with. You can potentially counter it, but as you said, you can't reliably counter Meditite.

The other thing is the table.....I mean its a bit of a nitpick but most of those moves are overlapping. For example, Fire Punch is used: Exeggcute and Honedge are no longer counters. If Poison Jab is used, Exeggcute and Spritzee are no longer counters, if LO is used, Elgym, Exceggcute and Drowzee are no longer "counters".

Additionally your use of the word limitations is implying it's actually a bad thing that Meditite can use the moves and further it's implying that any of those moves are necessary for Meditite to be considered broken.

By looking at these statistics, one might think "Oh, well Meditite can beat a lot of that shit if it uses Life Orb and High Jump Kick, which is what people are really using anyway".

According to LC C&C in Meditite's analysis writeup (QC 3/3), Eviolite is the most common and viable set. The LC community and LC Quality Control have already decided that Eviolite Meditite is more viable than Life Orb Meditite, which means that its most common and viable set, by definition, is the one that prevents it from 2HKOing more of its potential counters.

Also, keep in mind that by running Life Orb, Meditite is OHKOed by everything that Eviolite allows it to survive, and that list is quite extensive. This might not be that big of an issue for Meditite if it weren't so slow, but its defensive limitations do hold significant weight here in exchange for what it gains offensively by using Life Orb, and it gives an opponent plenty of opportunities for free damage or setup as it keeps having to switch out because of this.

100% agree. I will not be talking much about Life Orb Meditite unless it is somehow relevant. However, you cannot disregard then, that the LC community has also decided that it is not worth it to use Pokemon like Solosis, Baltoy, and Elgyem, to counter Meditite which is the bulk of your argument.

Baltoy can't really do much offensively and I already acknowledged that in this thread before people felt the need to tell me, like I didn't know. Meditite can only 2HKO Baltoy with Ice Punch or LO High Jump Kick, as it resists every single attack Meditite can think about carrying in the current metagame. What Baltoy is useful for is team support and/or disruption. It has access to Trick to cripple switch-ins that come in as Meditite flees. It also has access to dual screens (Reflect pretty much neutralizes Pure Power), Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin.

Trick cripples setup sweepers such as Misdreavus and Scraggy that think they can come in freely to set up for a sweep, giving them a Choice item as they switch in and before they can act. If they decide to switch out, this gives Baltoy yet another free turn to use a support move. If they decide to kill off Baltoy instead, the player using Baltoy gets potentially another a free turn, and a ton of momentum and can bring in a Pokemon that resists or is immune to the move that the enemy is now locked into. This is a win-win situation if setup sweepers attempt to take advantage of Baltoy's presence once it gets in against Meditite, regardless of Baltoy having to faint in the process. Memento, for example, causes the user to faint in the process, but is a hell of a move that really shifts momentum. Same thing with Healing Wish. That principle also applies here.

Baltoy doesn't last forever and will eventually end up dying without accomplishing much damage-wise, but Trick and its support moves can be game-changers. It would be ignorant to call this sacrificing a Pokemon when its job isn't to live forever. It has many things it can do to help its team and punish the opponent, with the turn it gets as non-Life Orb Meditite flees. Now, if the Meditite in question is in fact Life Orb Meditite and does in fact hit Baltoy with High Jump Kick on the switch-in, it is ruined. But it must have those things and also select the right move in order to do so. Please note that I am not over here just pushing the shit out of Baltoy (I much prefer Wynaut, Elgyem, and Exeggcute), but I have used it to good effect thanks to Meditite's existence, and it is a great team supporter if used properly.

First of all, without Eviolite Baltoy is potentially KOed by Ice Punch (especially if its invested in Speed). It also is 3HKOed by Drain Punch and can only 3HKO with Shadow Ball (due to Drain Punch). Meaning the only Baltoy that's going to deal with Meditite is going to be Eviolite which can't trick shit and is still set up bait (and loses to Ice Punch).

Solosis (105 base Special Attack) is a new potential Meditite counter I tried after speaking with Dracoyoshi8 on IRC, and it actually counters Meditite if it doesn't have Life Orb. It does basically the same thing as Elgyem, but its advantage over Elgyem is that it gets Regenerator like Slowpoke and can still resist both of Meditite's STABs without being weak to Thunder Punch like Slowpoke is. The catch is that Solosis is significantly less bulky than Elgyem and is 2HKOed by any elemental punch Life Orb Meditite uses. Elgyem is much better but Solosis can work against the Eviolite set perfectly and punish switch-ins with Thunder Wave or HP Fighting, as Elgyem also does.

Let me also reiterate that Elgyem (as well as Solosis) has Recover, which grants it the same advantages here as Slowpoke without being weak to Thunder Punch. Elgyem is actually a more reliable counter to Meditite than Slowpoke in the current meta because Meditite cannot hit it super effectively. Slowpoke has Regenerator and Scald over Elgyem, but Elgyem has Analytic, which makes its STAB Psychic sting like hell against even neutral targets, without even requiring Special Attack investment. People only say Elgyem sucks because they haven't tried it; it's true that it would be less viable without Meditite's existence but it forms a reliable core with Trubbish whether it faces Meditite or not. I'll be reiterating that in this post as well.

I actually like Solosis but you are at this point dedicating a Pokemon who would otherwise get its ass-kicked by the other 49 of the top 50 Pokemon unless you are using a TR team, in which case I don't think you would want to say that "Meditite is fine, just use a TR team".

Also we forget Choice Scarf Meditite a lot when talking about counters (you mention it basically in passing later....).

Lots of Pokemon in Little Cup are subject to being revenged after they knock something out, so I'm not seeing what would make that unhealthy only in this situation; that is a part of Pokemon. By Meditite knocking a Pokemon out, it actually becomes an enabler for two of Little Cup's most threatening setup sweepers to come in and shift momentum.


Misdreavus and Fletchling are two prominent threats in Little Cup that would be prominent threats even if Meditite did not exist, which means they would be found on a good number of teams either way and also means they do not solely exist for revenging Meditite and are not forced onto teams because of Meditite. With that in consideration, Meditite killing something gives one of them the chance to come in afterward and immediately apply a ton of pressure, and this is especially true with Meditite's Life Orb set because it is guaranteed to die to Missy's Shadow Ball or Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics if it stays in. If it thinks about switching out here to be safe, that comes with letting Misdreavus get a free Nasty Plot boost or letting Fletchling get a free Swords Dance boost. Both of these Pokemon severely punish Meditite's existence in this manner and can quite possibly come back and score two or three KOs to Meditite's one as a result.

One might say "Well a smart player isn't going to kill something with Meditite while an opposing Missy or Fletch is alive and in good health so this won't happen for good players".

Well, anyone with an idealism like this that defines how Meditite should be played is already acknowledging the limitations and consequences I just pointed out.

"Don't kill anything with Meditite until Missy and Fletch are dead" translates to "Meditite is held back by common threats and requires help from teammates in order to be effective".

While I would say your other arguments are passable in regards to using Pokemon that do somewhat deal with Meditite, even if they are bad in every other sense, I see them as valid arguments. This one, on the other hand, I don't believe I could say the same.

1) They don't necessarily force it out.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)

Fletchling fails to KO while Meditite can Drain Punch its ass and Bullet Punch (since bulky Fletchling is slower) and non bulky Fletch is KOed.

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

Similar situation here but Meditite doesn't cleanly KO with BP + ZHB and I'll admit Misdreavus is a very reliable check to Meditite. However it's important to note that it makes your argument into "Meditite can only KO a Pokemon and deal ~90% to its most reliable check so it's fine!" which I think speaks for itself.

2) Fletchling in particular is easy to switch into and while Misdreavus is less so, it is still not as hard to switch into than Meditite (which is an important criteria in my opinion) and doesn't get a free set-up due to being nearly KOed.

Anyway, this is an awful lot of limits and conditions that must be met for Meditite to be considered a problem, so I don't find it to be overwhelming. The Eviolite set misses out on several important 2HKOs against Meditite-resistant Pokemon but has more survivability; the Life Orb set scores many important 2HKOs that the Eviolite set misses out on, but is defensively horrible due to its sub-par Speed and lack of bulk, which is easily exploitable. It can be said that Meditite's enemies are disadvantaged since they don't know which item it's running, but it's easy to tell whether it's Eviolite or Life Orb by either seeing it attack once or by gauging the damage it takes from any direct attack. Choice Scarf sets shouldn't be switching into anything except Fighting-types (and even then, only if it has to really because taking a Knock Off would suck) and its item is also revealed most of the time once it attacks, because a large amount of the metagame outspeeds it naturally. After discovering Meditite's item, a player can identify many of the set's limitations and can process that information to formulate a plan of action against it, whether the player has a full-on counter that works against it or not. Meditite has its moves that it wants the most as well, it's not super unpredictable just because it has options. It wants to beat Slowpoke and Spritzee a lot more than it wants to beat Honedge. Players have preferences that open up opportunities for it to be walled by important Pokemon. I mean, running Baton Pass gives Meditite a handicap if it doesn't face Wynaut. It can't use the move for dry-passing/switch advantage because it's so slow and prone to damage that it would rather switch out manually so that it doesn't get hit. The only set that could comfortably use Baton Pass for switch advantage is the Choice Scarf set, and it already runs Trick, leaving it only two options for attacks. If it doesn't run Trick, it cannot cripple its switch-ins.

This is the meeting point of Meditite's pros and cons, I believe. The asset is that Meditite has ACCESS to so many moves that allow it to get around things that would wall or counter it otherwise. The liability is that Meditite ONLY gets to choose four, and it needs so many for its own security.

What "limits"? I have proven over and over again these "limits" or "liabilities" you are keep stating are just simply "lessened advantages". When one of the arguments is "Meditite has access to moves to bypass certain counters" and the counter argument is "Meditite can't bypass all of its counters" it is not in any way making it a liability it is just pointing out where the arguments validity ends. It is a valid point and a reason against banning Meditite for the sole reason that it bypasses its counters but it isn't changing the main argument (access to moves) from a pro to a con. This is shit is getting old and I don't want to say it again.

Pros:
Meditite has access to moves to bypass a few would-be counters but can't bypass all of them on one set.

Cons:
Nothing.

You even said it yourself:

Meditite does not have reliable counters because it can use moves that allow it get around all of them.

And I'll add your point: "but it can't run all of them at once".

This is where this one barely important argument should start and end.

Can we start talking about the important things now?

I don't know why we are OK with hand picking otherwise less than useful Pokemon that basically have no other merits when there are actually powerful, threatening, and commonly used that Meditite DOES deal with. I'm not going to be hand-picking these, they are straight from the top of the usage chart. I'm just using this Meditite for this: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 36 Speed, Adamant nature @ Eviolite. Fake Out/Bullet Punch/Drain Punch/Zen Headbutt.

Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy

I don't think I'm required to give calcs for this. Meditite can switch into any of Mienfoo/Timburr's moves even after its Knocked Off and OHKO back. Hell, even Life Orb Meditite can switch into this.

Pawniard
Meditite can actually check Pawniard even after a Swords Dance which makes a huge impact in a game. To top it off, it can check it with Drain Punch, meaning its healed up some of its HP (meaning it can still check things like Mienfoo and Timburr). This is where I think Meditite shines, it can check so many things but keep its HP high enough to keep doing it for more than one Pokemon per game.

Dwebble/Tirtouga/Carvanha

These Pokemon are insanely dangerous as I'm sure everyone can agree. After a Shell Smash, they OHKO a shit load of the metagame. What don't they beat? Meditite. Meditite with Fake Out can even switch into the smashers to break Sturdy and KO afterwards with Drain Punch. Again, to put the icing on the cake, it retains its HP (and item).

Chinchou
Chinchou needs lots of investment to avoid being OHKOed by Drain Punch (or Eviolite) and doesn't 2HKO back due to Drain Punch doing so much damage. I'm not using the spread, but Meditite can easily switch into Chinchou with SpD investment. It retains its HP and item once Chinchou is dead.

Magnemite

Fake Out + Drain Punch heals Thunderbolt/Flash Cannon's damage and KOes Magnemite. It can even switch into the common Thunderbolt-less variant.

Trubbish
Trubbish is a huge pussy and is OHKOed by ZHB.

Porygon
Porygon can deal some respectable damage to Meditite but not enough to KO it before it loses to Drain Punch.
Ferroseed
No need to explain. It hates Thunder Wave but it KOes it and keeps its HP and item.

Diglett

I might be digging but I'm honestly just going through my teams and stuff. This thing can only 2HKO with Life Orb and Drain Punch makes sure it doesn't. It can revenge kill it with low HP but it loses a bunch of its own HP. Also Blarajan's -2 Meditite likes to roll 1/16 and get the max damage to KO a low HP Diglett.

Munchlax
Can switch into any move and KO with Drain Punch.

Archen

Non acrobatics Archen can't touch Meditite and gets destroyed by Drain Punch + Bullet Punch. Acrobatics can be bypassed by Drain Punch and Bullet Punch, since it survives Acrobatics with item or Defeatist.

Fletchling
Yea I'm going there. It can't reliably check this due to Stealth Rock but it fucks it right up with max HP.

Abra

Fake Out + Bullet Punch, though Life Orb does revenge Meditite with Shadow Ball or Dazzling Gleam iirc.

I'm sure I could dig for more and STILL get more competitively Pokemon than Solisis, Baltoy, and Elgyem combined. Unlike the hand-picked "counters", there will be at LEAST 1-2 of these Pokemon on basically every viable team. Probably more like 4, if we are being honest. The Speed argument also takes a bit of a beating here because of its arbitrary nature. This list shows that while its slow, it survives the faster Pokemon's moves and KOes back. It outpaces the Pokemon that would KO it and heals itself back.

So I'll present both sides, with weakening agents in brackets.

Here are the pro-ban arguments:

- Meditite can check and counter a large part of the metagame WHILE retaining its ability to continue doing it for the majority of them.
- Meditite can bypass some of its counters if required (but only a few per game).

Here are the anti-ban arguments.

- It's slow (but only a few Pokemon that outpace it can actually KO it).

I mean the arguments look pretty stacked, especially in terms of the weight of the arguments, for the banning side. But again, deciding if the sheer weight of those arguments pushes over the banning line is still subjective and I'm still on the fence, I just wanted to set the record straight and make sure we aren't voting purely on whether Elgyem can counter Meditite or not.

 

[Ranger Mike]

I'd say that meditite is similar so mega lucario (not as broken but still broken) basically you send out your landorus t to kill mega lucario but bam get ice punched send out your aegislash get crunched it had no counters the sheer amount of items it runs makes you occasionally make a game changing mispredict and then your pissed. To touch on baltoy as Goddess Bri said baltoy has no offensive presence whatsoever so dont use baltoy as a tite counter. The argument that tite is easy to revenge kill and I am sounding like a broken record saying that it has to have killed at least one pokemon to be revenged. Bottomline I feel that meditite is pretty broken.

 

[Bughouse]

Oh and to add to my point above about Poison Jab v Slowpoke, the same applies even to Wynaut if you outplay your opponent:

LO Meditite can play around the standard Wynaut set in the LC analysis (I assume this is considered best) so it still has a chance to die when switching in. Wynaut will switch in, take 3 HP damage from Rocks (irrelevant). Then a max of 18 from LO Poison Jab, Berry Juice activates woo to full health! All good so far.

But what happens in that 30% poison situation? At the end of the turn, Wynaut falls to 26 HP due to poison damage. Wynaut is absolutely forced to use Counter as any other move is suicide should another Poison Jab be coming. But what if Meditite uses Fake Out? It fails, as will Wynaut's Counter. Wynaut now falls to 23 HP. And so on. Meditite avoids getting hit with Counter and even if Wynaut encores the Fake Out and switches out, it's now at below max health, without Berry Juice, and Poisoned. It can no longer counter Meditite later in the match.

So all it takes to beat Wynaut switching in is a 30% Poison chance. And in the case where something is sacced to bring in Wynaut for free? Again, save your Meditite by using Fake Out. It's that easy. No Baton Pass needed.

 

[blarajan]

I don't have too much to say since I prefer overseeing the discussion, but can we please stop saying Meditite is slow lol. Unless you think Pawniard (16) is slow, Meditite is not. And none of that "but people use Adamant" claptrap. Jolly Meditite is the bee's fucking knees.

Also I do want to point out removing Murkrow boosts Meditite hard, since the Murkrow / Misdreavus switchin conundrum is gone. Both of those things, when brought in safely on Meditite, wreak havoc with a free turn. Pawniard isn't as scary since really it can't switch in as it can't threaten an OHKO with anything lol. Yes Meditite has other checks but they aren't nearly as threatening as Murkrow / Misdreavus, so that alleviates some of the risk using Meditite. Let me tell you, I am oodles happier switching something into Elgyem than I am into Misdreavus.

Just take that into consideration.

 

[youngjake93]

I don't have too much to say since I prefer overseeing the discussion, but can we please stop saying Meditite is slow lol. Unless you think Pawniard (16) is slow, Meditite is not. And none of that "but people use Adamant" claptrap. Jolly Meditite is the bee's fucking knees.

Also I do want to point out removing Murkrow boosts Meditite hard, since the Murkrow / Misdreavus switchin conundrum is gone. Both of those things, when brought in safely on Meditite, wreak havoc with a free turn. Pawniard isn't as scary since really it can't switch in as it can't threaten an OHKO with anything lol. Yes Meditite has other checks but they aren't nearly as threatening as Murkrow / Misdreavus, so that alleviates some of the risk using Meditite. Let me tell you, I am oodles happier switching something into Elgyem than I am into Misdreavus.

Just take that into consideration.

I thought it was Smogon policy to just assess the meta as is and not assume something will become broken when voting. I don't think Meditite is broken with Murkrow being on almost every single team. Murkrow almost makes Meditite a liability sometimes without the clutch Thunder Punch on switch in predict. In terms of revenging, Murkrow is actually one of the few Pokemon that can turn being KOed by Meditite into a serious opportunity. Are we supposed to assume that Murkrow is going to leave AND THEN also assume that Meditite will become broken? Or are we supposed to evaluate the meta as is(which is what I thought)?

 

[chimp]

I thought it was Smogon policy to just assess the meta as is and not assume something will become broken when voting. I don't think Meditite is broken with Murkrow being on almost every single team. Murkrow almost makes Meditite a liability sometimes without the clutch Thunder Punch on switch in predict. In terms of revenging, Murkrow is actually one of the few Pokemon that can turn being KOed by Meditite into a serious opportunity. Are we supposed to assume that Murkrow is going to leave AND THEN also assume that Meditite will become broken? Or are we supposed to evaluate the meta as is(which is what I thought)?

Murkrow is still (probably not for long) in the meta. Blara's mention of it probably being banned (and consequently boosting tite) doesn't change his overall point.

 

[blarajan]

I believe it is fine to consider Murkrow's placement as one of Meditite's best offensive checks considering they are in the same suspect.

 

[Heysup]

I think it would be absurd to keep Meditite because Murkrow is in the metagame (or list it as a check) but I don't think it's fair to judge Meditite in a metagame we haven't played yet. We've done a pretty good job at avoiding that predicament until blarajan (gg).