Pursuit is a very viable move on Pawniard due to its ability to trap a large amount of common Psychic-types and can be used over Stealth Rock / Swords Dance if the support it provides fits your team.
Keeping an overpowered Pokemon just so another Pokemon isn't overpowered is not a reason not to ban something.Adam Lambert said:
I wouldn't necessarily call the 2 scenarios comparable by any means. Stone Edge is only used on Mienfoo to defeat Larvesta and a few other checks, but forces mienfoo to lose a large amount of utility. Pursuit pawniard on the other hand, supports its team by Pursuit trapping things such as Misdreavus and unlike Mienfoo, it doesn't lose much by replacing SD / SR (although its role on the team certainly changes).
And what do you think this does to Meditite by sacrificing one of its moves for Fire Punch, or Poison Jab, or Fake Out, or Baton Pass? What if it wants both Drain Punch and High Jump Kick?
Mienfoo can still run Drain Punch + U-turn + Knock Off, which is all it really needs; leaving a space for a filler move. Fake Out doesn't really offer much over an additional coverage move to be honest.
Fake Out is horrible as coverage because it's very weak and super effective on nothing; it's really for chip damage, picking off significantly weakened targets, and breaking Sash and Sturdy, which is fairly important. It is not so easily discarded.
Chip damage is pretty viable for getting those 'just barely lived it' KOs too. There are many times where this has won me matches.
except you would see pursuit on every 3 of 10 pawniards you see as stats say. also just because no one is running an obviously great move that supports meditite in every way doesnt mean your core magically is a good answer when pawniard alone has 2 ways to break your core. first way being pursuit which means gg and second way is getting a sd and then sucker punching. idk how you get the swords dance theres a variety of ways it can happen in a non-linear game but once pawn is at +2 both trubbish and elgyem are ohkoed by sucker punch.
I probably could have phrased that better. I didn't mean that Fake Out was good coverage, but Mienfoo still does what it does without it; that is, U-turning and Knock Offing, so Foo doesn't suffer much utility without it.
If it were that easy we wouldn't have spent 9 pages discussing it lol. Those two sentences only sum up your opinion; there is much more to delve into when it comes to things like this. Also, sometimes calcs are necessary to drive a point home.
Meditite loses a lot of utility when it doesn't run Thunder Punch(or insert other move here). I'm pretty sure Stone Edge is actually more popular on Foo than Fire Punch is on Tits tbh since one of the standard sample teams that was really popular ran Stone Edge. So that was a dumb comeback.
I'm just saying that Elgyem isn't really relevant as pretty much no one uses it, whereas people (surprise!) actually use stuff like Slowpoke and Honedge. Yeah, they're still screwed over by Meditite's bff as well, but my point was that they are at least used.
Porygon actually has a use that doesn't involve checking one Pokemon. You said it yourself that Elgyem would lose a lot of its viability if Meditite was banned. If its only real point is in beating Tite and that's the only real reason you use it, then that stands as a testament to how broken Tite is. I could replace Elgyem with Spritzee or some other Fighting resist and the same would hold true for that core busting those other Pokemon open 9not to mention it would be far superior in terms of support), but it wouldn't be as good at handling Tite. I'm glad your core works for you, but it doesn't change the fact that no one really uses Elgyem, and for good reason.
Brokenness is determined by a Pokemon's interaction in the metagame, not by single aspects of the Pokemon (such as stats).
If we can take into account uncommon things like Meditite's Fire Punch, I think its fair to take in account counters who don't see much usage as well, like Elg.
I don't want to sound rude here, but you just argued against your own point. You stated "Lileep is not too useful outside of beating krow" then explicitly listed other reasons why Lileep is good. That argument may be a good one against Krow banning if Lileep was actually a reliable source of countering Krow, but alas, its not. Also, Lileep would only be like the 4th viable pokemon capable of standing up to Murkrow; as opposed to the many who can counter Medititie (that is, depending on the move its running).
Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Poison Jab, etc don't give Meditite utility, its a way to beat what would otherwise counter it. That's called coverage. Utility refers to support options, such as Taunt, U-turn, Fake Out, Knock Off, Baton Pass, etc. Now I was referencing the Mienfoo (and I assume Bri was referencing) which I see the most, which really relies on setting up momentum, scouting and removing items with safety thanks to Drain Punch and Regenerator. Perhaps I should have made that more clear. Essentially, it's playing support, or utility. So is it worth it to give up a support option to run a coverage move? (I am inclined to believe that U-turn/Knock Off are pretty mandatory) It may be, depending on what your team needs.
The difference between Fire Punch Meditite and Elgyem is that Fire Punch is a viable coverage move that Meditite can use to bypass some of its counters (Exeggcute and Honedge) whereas Elgyem is a shitty version of Porygon whose sparse amount of viability comes from countering Meditite. I wouldn't call the two comparable at all.
Slowpoke is weak to Thunder Punch, Meditite's most common coverage move, and is 2HKOed by it. Elgyem is not and can take two.
I don't care what its usage stats say if it does the job I specifically want it to do the vast majority of the time, while also providing paralysis support and is protected from Knock Off by a Spikes stacking teammate that is put there to deal with it.
Umm what lol
Here I go trying to be respectful and informative and the trash talk comes forth once again. Porygon loses to Meditite, Elgyem does not. This suspect is about Meditite, not Elgyem's usage stats. I already demonstrated many times that Elgyem + Trubbish beats Mienfoo, Meditite, Pawniard, Spritzee, Timburr, Chinchou, etc and it stacks Spikes and spreads paralysis for the rest of the team reliably as well. It is also self-sustaining and has weaknesses just like everything does. Its merits are already known and so are its boundaries. If you don't want to use it, that does not disprove its strengths and advantages, and we can stop arbitrarily calling it shitty now.
I was never talking about Elgyem's usage in the tier, but how it is generally a shitty Pokemon in the tier. I get that it counters Meditite, but what else can it do that Porygon can't? It can't counter chinchou nearly as well as Porygon due to the lack of trace, has worse defense and Special attack, is even more prone to Knock off than Porygon and is all around less versatile.
It has the resistances it needs to fulfill this role. Porygon does not. Porygon's strong points might shine more in this case if this were a Misdreavus suspect, but it isn't, so I'm sticking to what's relevant. Also, Elgyem's STAB Psychic backed by Analytic hits a lot harder than Porygon's Tri Attack and is actually super effective on things too. Being prone to Knock Off shouldn't even be talked about as a problem for Elgyem anymore since I only advocate its use with Trubbish to cover this specific problem.
- Stacks Spikes to help out team offensively
