Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[Delver]

If murkrow and meditite get banned, were going to have gen 5 LC with berry smashers, and no ones looking forward to that. Murkrow and meditete are both strong and there is no denying that they greatly affect team building. However, if i may draw a parallel to Gen 5 scraggy ban discussions: forcing you to build around relevant threats is not toxic to team building or creativity in anyway and i think user Goddess Briyella has proven this more than anyone.

both murkrow and medite are drawing hate for being powerful diverse threats - and the last 12 pages of this discussion has basically been "they're broken because I dont know their set and I hate to play around the unknown."

I think the two biggest arguments so far have been:
-Meditite is broken because it can carry a 4th move to deal with anyting that would answer it: This means he doesnt have coverage for other things.
-Murkrow is actually sonic the hedgehog.: scarf users are real, and agaisnt the scarf set, priority is real.

Murkrow has gotten absolutely nothing this gen besides a new weakness and teh ability to break through the all-powerful noob identifier that was bronzor - and we decided he was keepable last gen. Its not even a matter of "having to run multiple dedicated murkrow counters" to deal with all the threats. Its 100% a matter of identifying the set and responding accordingly. The life orb set is hella strong and there is no denying that, especially with HP Grass. However the ability to 2hko the entire metagame comes at a cost, and i think those callng for a ban on it are ignoring the fact that pokemon is as much a game of minds as it is about spaming brave birds. I have never had an issue dealing with murkrow and meditite against bad players - and most of the time murkrow or tits goes off its because you're getting out played - as little as it may look. (and then there's crits and shit)

I have no doubts in my head that these two will be banned with the salt of the Dead Sea, tho.

To clarify, as it might seem like im attacking some players my argument is litterally: "Just because the queen is a good chess piece that you're forced to play around doesnt mean it should be banned from the board" and nothing more.

 

[Artemisa]

Murkrow has gotten absolutely nothing this gen besides a new weakness and teh ability to break through the all-powerful noob identifier that was bronzor - and we decided he was keepable last gen. Its not even a matter of "having to run multiple dedicated murkrow counters" to deal with all the threats. Its 100% a matter of identifying the set and responding accordingly. The life orb set is hella strong and there is no denying that, especially with HP Grass. However the ability to 2hko the entire metagame comes at a cost, and i think those callng for a ban on it are ignoring the fact that pokemon is as much a game of minds as it is about spaming brave birds. I have never had an issue dealing with murkrow and meditite against bad players - and most of the time murkrow or tits goes off its because you're getting out played - as little as it may look. (and then there's crits and shit)

What did happen this gen was Berry Juice, which later made SubThief krow. This completely stops your primary answer to Murkrow. Murkrow absorbs the item from your opponents check/counter and hits it with its stabs. Dark buff helped krow deal with steel switch ins such as ScarfMagnemite / Bronzor / Shieldon and made flying/dark coverage perfect without needing some other coverage move. BJ also gives MixKrow more longevity and still maintain the ability to break teams really well (Not as good as LO Krow, but still pretty good). Even if you recognize the subthief set you will still have a high chance of losing your eviolite or berry juice making some 3hkos --> 2.

I don't personally don't mind 50/50s, but when the majority of the match is decided on them then there is a problem. Predicting is pretty much the same as speed ties. Again I don't mind 50/50's, but I don't like them deciding the game unless it's late game. If you lose some mindgames there are times where you just lose some damage or just get statused, but with LO Krow the outcome of those mindgames are either Krow dying or your opponents mon dying, most of the time.

 

[Chieliee]

three remarks:

However, if i may draw a parallel to Gen 5 scraggy ban discussions: forcing you to build around relevant threats is not toxic to team building or creativity in anyway and i think user Goddess Briyella has proven this more than anyone.

I tried building a team keeping every single Meditite set in mind, at it sucked. I tried again, and it sucked again. And i'm pretty sure my teambuilding isn't that bad. It's simply impossible to keep in mind every common Meditite/Murkrow set and still cover the rest of the entire tier. 6 mons is not enough for that, as you pretty much need 3 for Murkrow and 3 for Meditite. This is a slight exaggeration, but I think my point stands

If murkrow and meditite get banned, were going to have gen 5 LC with berry smashers, and no ones looking forward to that.

We still have Berry Juice, Spritzee, a stronger Knock Off, and actually no murkrow, which allows for a lot more freedom in teambuilding. But to be honest, I think that a stale metagame is a problem we should worry about later (we could invent forum projects to encourage creativity on the ladder, or perhaps ban more things)

-Meditite is broken because it can carry a 4th move to deal with anyting that would answer it: This means he doesnt have coverage for other things.

1. The list of mons that can switch in on either of it's STAB's and not get 2hko'd by either Scarf or Life Orb is very small.
2. If Meditite chooses not to run priority (this is legit if you want it to function as a wallbreaker), Meditite actually has room for 2 coverage moves, which means it DOES cover pretty much the entire tier

 

[blarajan]

Don't worry about BW LC. I will make sure this tier stays fun.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

If murkrow and meditite get banned, were going to have gen 5 LC with berry smashers, and no ones looking forward to that. Murkrow and meditete are both strong and there is no denying that they greatly affect team building. However, if i may draw a parallel to Gen 5 scraggy ban discussions: forcing you to build around relevant threats is not toxic to team building or creativity in anyway and i think user Goddess Briyella has proven this more than anyone.

If I may add to this, imagine playing against a Double Rush sand team in BW LC without running sand yourself or Snover or CM Bronzor as well as something to handle the Fire-type that the sand team brings specifically for Snover and Bronzor. Snover was definitely something that had "forced" usage last generation due to the huge threat of sand, and it has several liabilities outside of dealing with specifically sand and also 7 weaknesses, and would be a lot less viable if it didn't check the most threatening playstyle in the game.

Some might try to say that using information from a past generation is irrelevant but I find this comparison somewhat valid.

 

[boo836]

If murkrow and meditite get banned, were going to have gen 5 LC with berry smashers, and no ones looking forward to that. Murkrow and meditete are both strong and there is no denying that they greatly affect team building. However, if i may draw a parallel to Gen 5 scraggy ban discussions: forcing you to build around relevant threats is not toxic to team building or creativity in anyway and i think user Goddess Briyella has proven this more than anyone.

both murkrow and medite are drawing hate for being powerful diverse threats - and the last 12 pages of this discussion has basically been "they're broken because I dont know their set and I hate to play around the unknown."

I think the two biggest arguments so far have been:
-Meditite is broken because it can carry a 4th move to deal with anyting that would answer it: This means he doesnt have coverage for other things.
-Murkrow is actually sonic the hedgehog.: scarf users are real, and agaisnt the scarf set, priority is real.

Murkrow has gotten absolutely nothing this gen besides a new weakness and teh ability to break through the all-powerful noob identifier that was bronzor - and we decided he was keepable last gen. Its not even a matter of "having to run multiple dedicated murkrow counters" to deal with all the threats. Its 100% a matter of identifying the set and responding accordingly. The life orb set is hella strong and there is no denying that, especially with HP Grass. However the ability to 2hko the entire metagame comes at a cost, and i think those callng for a ban on it are ignoring the fact that pokemon is as much a game of minds as it is about spaming brave birds. I have never had an issue dealing with murkrow and meditite against bad players - and most of the time murkrow or tits goes off its because you're getting out played - as little as it may look. (and then there's crits and shit)

I have no doubts in my head that these two will be banned with the salt of the Dead Sea, tho.

To clarify, as it might seem like im attacking some players my argument is litterally: "Just because the queen is a good chess piece that you're forced to play around doesnt mean it should be banned from the board" and nothing more.

Forcing o prepare for a threat isn't toxic to teambuilding, but forcing to prepare for a specific threat out of a limited selection of options IS toxic. I hate to be that guy, but let's be real here: Honedge/Elgyem are simply not that great. Wynaut's a beast, but I shouldn't have to run it to take care of Passless Tite (even though Pass Tite is best Tite).

Murkrow gained a lot from Defog, the Dark boost, and so much more in terms of emerging threats. Don't just take into account that Murkrow itself didn't change, because the metagame certainly has. Trends emerge, new concepts are brought up, and our arguments need to deal with that. That means we can't just look at performance in previous metagames. Sure, comparisons can be made, but you can't just say that Krow has the same impact as in B2W2 because it didn't directly gain much. Also, bear in mind that comparing other Pokemon in different metagames doesn't really work as an argument for saying Tite isn't broken. Rather, that just says whatever you're comparing should probably be up for being banned lol.

The issue with Krow tbh isn't that it can be unpredictable (though that's certainly a part of the reason), but that it kicks the shit out of the rest of the metagame. Meditite does the exact same thing. It doesn't have the speed to press nearly as much pressure as Krow, but it doesn't change that almost always kills something. I've never had issues dealing with Tite, but it was far too easy to win because of it. Meditite doesn't usually win games by sweeping, it wins by taking out the opponent's strongest links. Meditite's got 4MSS, but quite honestly that doesn't really matter considering that what it does lose coverage against are among some of the easiest Pokemon to handle. Just because Pokemon have counters, it doesn't mean it isn't broken. You need to consider the utility of those counters, and furthermore the place of those counters in the metagame.

In the instances of Slowpoke, Honedge, and others, what place do they have in the metagame? Slowpoke's a great check to Fire types (not named Larvesta) and can wall a few Fighting-types, but it suffers heavily from Knock Off and really dislikes the ever common Chinchou, Pawniard, Misdreavus, and much more. On the other hand, you've got Honedge, which also hates Knock Off, along with the common Fire-types, Pawniard, Missy, and other really common Pokemon. Regardless of whether or not you've got the proper check to Tite, they are so easy to get around that you'll constantly feel under pressure. There's little momentum lost when you bring in a check because Meditite doesn't need a turn to set up, and almost all the time you actually stand to lose momentum yourself because you've got to deal with the most threatening S-Ranks coming in as a response. Unless you're using Trubbish, have fun losing your item to Knock Off. There's very little room for pressuring your opponent when you're playing against Meditite, and nearly all the time you'll find yourself being rekt by such a massive offensive presence.

 

[unitard]

most of the time murkrow or tits goes off its because you're getting out played

On Murkrow:
I think this is especially true of LO Krow, which I've personally never had much of an issue with. As long as you have a couple of generally bulky things that can semi-deal with LO Krow (i.e. I've been using Trubbish, Lickitung, and Ponyta, none of which I selected for my team with Murkrow in mind), LO Krow is going to hurt itself more than it'll hurt you. If LO Krow goes off on you, it's probably because you're being lame and using Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard with Chinchou as your only mon capable of dealing with Krow. Obviously you're going to get swept.

The problem is that Murkrow's other sets are not so straightforward. It's a relief when the opponent is using LO Krow, because at least you know it's just going to attack. Against sets like SubRoost, Murkrow can outlast your bulky mons. Against SubThief, your hard counter isn't a hard counter anymore. And then there's Swagger + TWave, which can beat you regardless of how you play.

I personally thought Murkrow was manageable last gen, but it was the best pokemon in the tier. And now it has SubThief, BJ MixKrow, even Scope Lens Super Luck on top of everything it already had (and there's the Dark buff). I'm way more on the fence than most people about Murkrow, but I have to admit that I think these new sets (especially SubThief) might have pushed it over the edge.

On Meditite:
All of the anti-ban arguments I've seen have focused on Meditite as a wallbreaker. The argument isn't just that Meditite can get around some of its counters with a coverage move. The most argument (in my view at least) is as follows:

1) The combination of Eviolite + good defensive typing + acceptable bulk makes the Eviolite set easy to switch in. It can then use one of its two STAB moves backed by 28 attack to hit a vast majority of the tier for neutral damage. Meditite can often heal off any damage it took switching in and come back later.
2) The LO set can still get in fairly easily thanks to its typing and Drain Punch. LO turns several 3HKOs into 2HKOs, so bulky switch-ins who are hit neutrally aren't going to get the job done anymore.
3) Because of Meditite's low speed, a number of things can still switch in and threaten it at least once. However, Choice Scarf Meditite exists, which can 2HKO most of these mons. Alternatively (since a Choice Scarf set obviously has the flaw of being locked in to a move), the Eviolite and LO sets can often finish off these weakened switch-ins with Bullet Punch.
4) This leaves very few reliable answers to Meditite. Those that do exist can be bypassed with the right coverage move and are usually not ideal options anyway (Elgyem and Exeggcute might be underrated, but they're still not ideal).

The point about bypassing counters is really pretty far down the line on the list of reasons Meditite should be banned. The real issue is that something with 28 attack, good STABs, decent bulk, and a move that recovers its health should not be allowed to stick around.

If murkrow and meditite get banned, were going to have gen 5 LC with berry smashers, and no ones looking forward to that.

I really don't think this is true at all. Fletchling and Spritzee have been added to the mix. Pokemon like Trubbish are now viable thanks to Berry Juice. With Murkrow gone, there will be only two of the three M's left. With Knock Off all over the place, Misdreavus is going to have a much more difficult time setting up. The new additions I mentioned above are all solid answer to Mienfoo. In addition, Mienfoo's going to have a much harder time staying around if it has to switch into Pawniard's Knock Off. We have Speed Boost Torchic now. Carvanha will be around too. The thing that sucked about gen 5 LC was that every team was just Mienfoo/Missy/Murkrow against Mienfoo/Missy/Murkrow with some regen core bullshit thrown in, so battles were boring and lasted forever and it was just about which team's 3 M's outlasted the other. There are other ways to beat Missy/Mienfoo now. It's possible that it'll suck for different reasons, but it won't just be gen 5 LC.

 

[chimp]

On Murkrow:
I think this is especially true of LO Krow, which I've personally never had much of an issue with. As long as you have a couple of generally bulky things that can semi-deal with LO Krow (i.e. I've been using Trubbish, Lickitung, and Ponyta, none of which I selected for my team with Murkrow in mind), LO Krow is going to hurt itself more than it'll hurt you. If LO Krow goes off on you, it's probably because you're being lame and using Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard with Chinchou as your only mon capable of dealing with Krow. Obviously you're going to get swept.

You shouldn't be forced to run two or three counters to a single pokemon. This may not apply if you're using a strategy like Fletchling + Murkrow, but Murkrow alone is capable of getting passed all its counters with atleast one of its sets, and even then there are only... like... 3 pokemon who are actually reliable as counters. Porygon is 2KO'd by LO BB (unless you trace Prankster). Ponyta is 2KO'd even by eviolite sets, and while the burn chance is there, its very unreliable (since Krow usually runs Dark Pulse to bypass that anyway.) This is not even factoring in hazards.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Lol murkrow does not have any counters. This was already showed in previous posts. You need to sacrifice a mon in order to check him, and even his checks aren't that reliable because of sucker punch. Recoil isn't a thing. Krow has acess to roost, and even if it dies by recoil it would have done a lot of damage to your team.

 

[prem]

i just want to say murkrow was not fine at all last gen and anyone who thinks that is wrong. not an arguement im not gonna waste my time saying more than this. murkrow was broken as fuck last gen, and is still broken as fuck.

 

[blarajan]

I TOOK OVER BW WHEN XY WAS HAPPENING AND DIDN'T WANT TO ROCK THE BOAT SORRY

 

[Brambane]

Why is there discussion about BW LC? Is it even relevant? We even have a new type chart, a lot of shit is different.

BESIDES I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK

THOSE WERE DARK TIMES


GOOD AVATAR 8/10 MIO IS BETTER

 

[TUO]

tbh I liked BW LC. One thing that made me not like it so much though was Murkrow. Outside of Fighting-types, Snover was actually pretty good because of the power of Blizzard. It wasn't really a bad mon without Hippo, although it is true that Snover rose primarily because of sand (Even if I would argue that if Blizzard/Hail Turns wasn't nerfed, we would still see some Snovers). Not to mention there were other checks to Sand like Shell Smashing Tirtouga, Foongus was ok, and Porygon is a really damn good mon. Also, Sand teams had to much issues when it comes to checking the rest of the meta with their last 3 slots outside of like (Hippo/Drilbur/Pawn) which gave those teams an over-reliance on Drilbur. Sand Teams had much more issues than Murk/Meditite. In Murkrow's case it's the fact that it's so good standalone and counters go as loosely as they can get. In Meditite's case, it's the fact that it actually adds utility to a team, has good longevity and defensive typing and has the ability to beat out its other counters.

Meditite isn't really losing much though if it runs an extra coverage move. It has the opportunity to along with the moveslot. The fact that everything as a counter is so unreliable isn't really something desirable in a meta.

Also Delver, People run Dark Pulse on LO Krow now haha :)

Also, if Krow gets banned, it will be nothing like BW LC because Krow was a huge part of BW LC.

 

[prem]

so those tits.

 

[unitard]

You shouldn't be forced to run two or three counters to a single pokemon. This may not apply if you're using a strategy like Fletchling + Murkrow, but Murkrow alone is capable of getting passed all its counters with atleast one of its sets, and even then there are only... like... 3 pokemon who are actually reliable as counters. Porygon is 2KO'd by LO BB (unless you trace Prankster). Ponyta is 2KO'd even by eviolite sets, and while the burn chance is there, its very unreliable (since Krow usually runs Dark Pulse to bypass that anyway.) This is not even factoring in hazards.

I was talking exclusively about LO Krow. And I think you missed my point: I wasn't suggesting that any of Ponyta, Trubbish, and Lickitung are counters to LO Krow (in fact, as I mentioned above, I have been using them recently for reasons that have nothing to do with Murkrow). Just that they're quality mons that aren't weak to Murkrow.

My point was this: LO Krow is certainly very dangerous and virtually impossible to switch into safely. However, one solution to this problem is to make sure you don't have to switch into LO Krow that often. If it checks 2/3 of your team (which is the case if you use Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard), you're asking to get swept. There are plenty of mons that can beat LO Krow one on one. As long as you don't completely ignore Murkrow while team building, you'll end up with a few of them by chance, and then you shouldn't get swept by LO Krow.

None of this is to say that Murkrow isn't broken. Just trying to argue that people might be overrating the LO set in particular because it happens to be so effective against the Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard core that everyone loves so much.

 

[Delver]

I TOOK OVER BW WHEN XY WAS HAPPENING AND DIDN'T WANT TO ROCK THE BOAT SORRY

Blara did good last gen. I wasnt trying to imply that last gen sucked, as much as that i think we as a community can agree that after the like 15th month of "yeh i guess im ok with this" it got real stale and boring. Also my statement about it being BW was more relevant to it becoming stale and boring. I personally dont think that LC OU was ever really designed to be a "Diverse" teir in the natural sense (UU I havent touched but looks cool as hell). this is an argument I've made many times before in last gen where people were dark horsing stupid shit like cacnea and totodile. I think LC should be more diverse in the quality of the top teir mons vs the quanity. I always looked at it as more of a chess game where it was "you have these peices to work with, lets see what you can do with it" and that fundamental difference is what drew me into LC vs the other teirs. I just think removing such diverse mons from the meta will only hinder its growth.

so those tits.

On a personal note, Meditite is my favorite pokemon in LC because a) tit jokes. b) looks like an onion = has layers = is shrek.

 

[TUO]

Blara did good last gen. I wasnt trying to imply that last gen sucked, as much as that i think we as a community can agree that after the like 15th month of "yeh i guess im ok with this" it got real stale and boring. Also my statement about it being BW was more relevant to it becoming stale and boring. I personally dont think that LC OU was ever really designed to be a "Diverse" teir in the natural sense (UU I havent touched but looks cool as hell). this is an argument I've made many times before in last gen where people were dark horsing stupid shit like cacnea and totodile. I think LC should be more diverse in the quality of the top teir mons vs the quanity. I always looked at it as more of a chess game where it was "you have these peices to work with, lets see what you can do with it" and that fundamental difference is what drew me into LC vs the other teirs. I just think removing such diverse mons from the meta will only hinder its growth.


On a personal note, Meditite is my favorite pokemon in LC because a) tit jokes. b) looks like an onion = has layers = is shrek.

I ran Bellsprout last gen, Bellsprout>Cacnea/Totodile imo

I'm glad you put it in that chess mentality because that's really how I saw Pokemon for a while, and to an extent how I see it now. However, that mentality of working with quantity gives it almost the argument of something being not broken just because the opposition can use it as well.

We have taken a very liberal banning philosophy where if we think it is more powerful or promotes a style of play that is unhealthy for the metagame, or puts too much pressure on teambuilding and makes a larger impact in-game than the rest of the mons, we would consider the Pokemon unbalanced or "broken" and ban it from the format. That's how so many metas in Smogon worked, some bans were a bit questionable and unwarranted to some people, but since a majority thought it was unbalanced and had the effects I previously mentioned, it was banned from competitive play for (hopefully) a better cause and development for the metagame.

The other philosophy (which is what we did in BW LC for a while towards the end, for a variety of reasons) was to keep some Pokemon that qualify as broken or unbalanced (at least in my opinion, Murkrow particularly) making the metagame develop on its own. Murkrow's existence didn't neccesarily dumb down the game to total bullshit unless it was ParaFusion, but it was quite unbalanced. It created what Delver mentioned above what he liked about LC, how the metagame was very developed because of how long these mons have been in the metagame, and everything in BW LC was defined for that reason. Of course there are some downsides of this. In BW LC's case, it kinda pushed some people away from playing. And at higher level play, Speed ties were quite a concern because of how the meta was centralized.

Similarly to BW Krow, XY Krow has the qualities that warrant a ban in the liberal banning philosophy, as it is simply stronger than the rest and is such a strong independent and diverse sweeper. I'll just quote myself on why I thought Krow was broken a pages ago:

Murkrow is absolutely broken, it has the combination of all traits that can make a mon potentially broken. Let's list things that make Murkrow broken in as many perspectives as possible.

Versatility:
Similarly to Swirlix, Murkrow has a multitude of offensive sets that although might have a couple counters in common, you have to play around differently. There is the common Life Orb+4 Attacks set (Brave Bird,Sucker Punch,Heat Wave,Dark Pulse/crap like Defog or Sunny Day) that can use any free turn or opportunity to go in and easily KO an opposing mon unless they have very specific checks. It can even straight up 6-0 a team in the lower ends of the PS Ladder (and the higher ends, lol). Even those "counters" or specific checks have issues because those mons are weak to the rest of the meta (which is why it's really easy to put Murkrow in Fighting-type+Knock Off teams) LO Murkrow is just versatile as an offensive threat on teams because of how powerful it is. You just need to click Brave Bird and nail the switchin with one of your other moves. Which is mentioned here as a broken quality of Murkrow.


Very valid case for LO Murkrow, it has a similar broken quality to Tornadus-Therian in BW OU in this way, being able to spam a LO move and nail anything else with something else. Of course this is about it's versatility, not how powerful LO Murkrow is. Tornadus-Therian had U-Turn and Regenerator, something that Murkrow doesn't offer to the table. However, Murkrow offers a bunch of other things as an offensive threat, particularly utility to an offensive team.

LO Murkrow is also used on a lot of offensive teams because of a powerful Life Orb Sucker Punch that greatly helps every team in checking threats, and is one of the sole reasons priority is so common in this meta. LO Murkrow is just so good in all aspects as an offensive threat. Also, Dark Pulse flinch destroys Dwebble ez (hue)

That's enough with LO Murkrow though, Murkrow has even more retarded sets that can beat a team.

Murkrow's versatility also shows in its multitude of sets; some or gimmicky while others aren't. I think we can all agree that if Murkrow had Knock Off, it would be banned before Gligar/Swirlix/Tangela, and people discovered that Sub Thief sets are very effective in this metagame, and is almost like Murkrow's version of Knock Off. Thief sets are almost as threatening as Life Orb, and has more longevity than the LO Murkrow set. LO Murkrow's weakness is that you can wear it down, and try to outlast it. However, the same strategy doesn't apply to Sub+Thief. You don't know what set it is in team preview, so you either need to have gdlk predict skills, or have to scout it out. Either way, you are in a losing battle.

That, along with Murkrow's access to hax based methods, and other sets that are freaking bullshit (I have a ok team around PerishTrap). Murkrow is just way too versatile.

Teambuilding Approach:
I'll make this shorter because of how long the last one was. Simple to put, it really feels that the reason there are people high up on the ladder with teams without Murkrow is not because it doesn't fit on the team, but people Don't Want to use Murkrow because of its centralizing and overpowering nature. Honestly, Murkrow's mentioned versatility gives you no reason not to run Murkrow on a team, unless you are doing a slow-paced variant of stall (Murkrow might even find a place there, who knows) Murkrow is so easy to put on a team, and so many team archetypes have Murkrow in them just because of how strong and helpful it is. Combine that with Murkrow's access to utility moves like Defog, and you have a Pokemon that can fit on so many teams.

Murkrow also has a huge effect on the other side of the teambuilder. Murkrow puts such a large teambuilding strain when it comes to attempts to counter it, because of its strength. You often have to run at least 2 pokemon that can revenge kill it, or a really niche check. That goes along with the Chinchou that is starting to feel like it's on every team, and you have the most centralizing Pokemon in the meta.

With that, it's easy to see that Murkrow is Broken and should be banned.

I'll just fill up the form in one sentence answers to sum it up.

1. Is Murkrow Broken?
Yes, Murkrow is broken because of all the problems it can cause in a game of Little Cup
2. Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
Very little Pokemon can make a game outright unfun, but Murkrow definitely makes the game a bit less sometimes due to its ParaFusion possibilities and all the stress that Krow can cause.
3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I believe that this Murkrow problem is giving a very bad image of LC to others, and for that reason can deter people from playing LC.

I'll say more about Meditite when more discussion sparks, I see Murkrow debates ending earlier.

I hope that my post then was evidence on why Murkrow fills the criteria in what our current and most common philosophy decides is broken.

Medittie has been debates on whether or not it follows this philosophy of being broken, but I believe it does follow that, because of its longevity with Drain Punch, along with the combination of multiple other traits.

Right now the more liberal banning philosophy has been followed, and I'd rather keep it at that. It is far from wrong to think Murkrow/Meditite doesn't warrant a ban, but I believe it should because of the philosophy we are running at this point.

I hope this makes sense I typed small bits of this in between osu songs

 

[chimp]

I was talking exclusively about LO Krow. And I think you missed my point: I wasn't suggesting that any of Ponyta, Trubbish, and Lickitung are counters to LO Krow (in fact, as I mentioned above, I have been using them recently for reasons that have nothing to do with Murkrow). Just that they're quality mons that aren't weak to Murkrow.

My point was this: LO Krow is certainly very dangerous and virtually impossible to switch into safely. However, one solution to this problem is to make sure you don't have to switch into LO Krow that often. If it checks 2/3 of your team (which is the case if you use Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard), you're asking to get swept. There are plenty of mons that can beat LO Krow one on one. As long as you don't completely ignore Murkrow while team building, you'll end up with a few of them by chance, and then you shouldn't get swept by LO Krow.

None of this is to say that Murkrow isn't broken. Just trying to argue that people might be overrating the LO set in particular because it happens to be so effective against the Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard core that everyone loves so much.

Those pokemon might not be necessarily weak to murkrow, but they certainly aren't strong against him either. The only way I think a pokemon can win vs LOkrow 1 on 1 is if you come in to revenge it; which means Krow has already taken down a pokemon. Unless you're chinchou, archen, or BJ Lax, there isn't much hope in being able to switch in.

I'm not trying to sound scornful here; I'm curious as to what you meant by "make sure you don't have to switch into LO Krow that often"? Its a bit hard to do that; sure LOkrow doesn't have the ability to switch in, but it makes a solid revenge killer. Its 19 Speed and 18 pretty much means that, if you don't switch to a counter, you're going to get smashed.

 

[boo836]

I was talking exclusively about LO Krow. And I think you missed my point: I wasn't suggesting that any of Ponyta, Trubbish, and Lickitung are counters to LO Krow (in fact, as I mentioned above, I have been using them recently for reasons that have nothing to do with Murkrow). Just that they're quality mons that aren't weak to Murkrow.

My point was this: LO Krow is certainly very dangerous and virtually impossible to switch into safely. However, one solution to this problem is to make sure you don't have to switch into LO Krow that often. If it checks 2/3 of your team (which is the case if you use Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard), you're asking to get swept. There are plenty of mons that can beat LO Krow one on one. As long as you don't completely ignore Murkrow while team building, you'll end up with a few of them by chance, and then you shouldn't get swept by LO Krow.

None of this is to say that Murkrow isn't broken. Just trying to argue that people might be overrating the LO set in particular because it happens to be so effective against the Mienfoo/Meditite/Missy/Pawniard core that everyone loves so much.

When you pretty much die to what Murkrow can throw at you (see: Ponyta, Lickitung, Trubbish), then I'm pretty sure that they're weak to Krow. When something like Krow is basically guaranteed at least one kill, whatever it may be (and hell, doesn't even have to sac itself like Carvannah or Missy, then it really isn't healthy for the metagame. Defending against Krow shouldn't be making sure that it doesn't check 2/3 of your team because while generally that would be a good argument, it completely skips over the fact that Krow checks a vast majority of the metagame.


--
Anyways, concerning both arguments for Krow and Tite, here's a brief talk on the two Pokemon with Doug's old "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" in mind:

Hide

Variety:

So, does Murkrow limit variety? I'd be inclined to say no, but not in a positive way. Some of the Pokemon being listed to deal with Krow and Meditite are certainly useful for that task to some degree, but they aren't exactly useful outside of that. When you have to run something like Elgyem, you've only got variety in a trivial sense, and goes to show that Meditite and Krow are overcentralizing forces. Furthermore, when teams like my Timburr-weak shitfest of a team can pull off decent win-loss records (which was better than some of the much more skilled players [Here's the obligatory "fuck you and your Swagplay Prem"]), it really says something about how Krow and Tite affect the metagame.


Balance

I won't post much here (as I'v already talked about how Meditite and Krow both unbalance the meta), but there isn't that much of a balance in strategies in LC, though that's because of how offensive the metagame is. However, the proliferation of Murkrow and Meditite -two Pokemon that can take down almost anything- only makes it much worse. Murkrow is one of the fastest, strongest threats in the metagame, and is capable of shattering almost every Pokemon that's been listed (with the only real exception being Shieldon). Meditite has durability, coverage, and raw strength, and does the same thing as Murkrow, albeit at a slower pace.


Stability:

The Murkrow/Meditite metagame is rather stable, but tbh that's because centralizing forces tend to stop fluctuations throughout the metagame. New trends have a hard time emerging, as frequently the need to deal with centralizing forces is far too important, and those trends themselves may have issues dealing with Krow and Tite. As a result, we see a stagnating metagame. That isn't to say new trends can't form that aren't directly related to Tite and Krow, but those emerging trends are typically in some way connected to centralizing Pokemon.

Skill:​

To be frank, the LC metagame doesn't actually require a whole lot of skill. While the issue certainly isn't limited to Krow or Tite, those two are particularly strong, and they especially place a lot of pressure on newer players. If these threats can crush almost all of the metagame without even a turn of set-up, then LC isn't really a very welcoming environment. I'll admit that I'm a new LC player myself, and I didn't get into it until one of my friends suggested I try it out. While I personally didn't have issues dealing with Meditite, I found myself frequently winning due to my own Meditite.

Efficiency

To put it simply, having to run useless shit like Elgyem, Shieldon, (arguably) Honedge, and checks like Lickitung don't make for an efficient team. Typically, these Pokemon fall quickly to other very common threats, and have very little utility (though Lickitung has considerably more than the others). It's silly to have to run those Pokemon, as they are almost always momentum grabs for your opponent.

tl;dr the presence of both Meditite and Murkrow stagnate, and unbalance the metagame, hamper efficiency in teambuilding unnecessarily, and reduce only allow for inefficient variety. They both do not fit the characteristics of a desirable metagame, and should be banned.​

 

[The Quasar]

That's my little (behind time?) cent about this suspect (I hope the next will be on only one subject, I told that above).

Murkow

I play LC from last year and Murkow was just enough strong in "old" BW2 LC. I don't want to speak about SubSwagger set, I hope that Swagger+Prankster will be ban in all tier as soon as possible. His great speed (19) in a tier characterized by habitual speed-tie, gets it off easy, Life Orb MixKrow set is perhaps the most threatening set with STAB Brave Bird is quite dangerous for many mons (next to never keep 2 attacks), HP Grass is the right answer vs Rock/Chinchou opposing, Heat Wave and above all Sucker Punch give it the priority for its "squaring of the circle". But also Dark Pulse is a good chance for it.
So its poor defence and recoil damage is not so important as much as his aggressiveness.

And it's not the only one set you can engage in. The Prankster ability is dreadful, it allows an offensive SubRoost Naive (or Jolly) Attacker. Substitute puts under cover vs Toxic, WoW Misdreavus and so on. Then it can attack with Brave Bird and "sure" Sucker Punch. But also the "simply" set with ThunderWave,Sub,Roost and Brave Bird is quite annoying as much as useful. Even like weather setter you can use it! And we can forget Taunt that can block hazard, status move and setup moves. It has also Haze like "string in its' bow". Not bad, really?

Finally Thief. And here is the reason because I think Murkrow is broken. Obviously, it's not for Thief. But I could write the same things for BW metagame. Then, in XY it has Berry Juice and Defog too.
So what was very strong is become alse defender of itself, about its weak to Stealth Rock. It can't switch-in again and again on SR the same, but it can clear SR. Then, BJ (and optional Thief) can trasform it like something indestructible (as we can give up Roost in favor other without regrets) and enough lethal.

About Meditite I would be able to write tomorrow.

 

[unitard]

Those pokemon might not be necessarily weak to murkrow, but they certainly aren't strong against him either. The only way I think a pokemon can win vs LOkrow 1 on 1 is if you come in to revenge it; which means Krow has already taken down a pokemon. Unless you're chinchou, archen, or BJ Lax, there isn't much hope in being able to switch in.

I'm not trying to sound scornful here; I'm curious as to what you meant by "make sure you don't have to switch into LO Krow that often"? Its a bit hard to do that; sure LOkrow doesn't have the ability to switch in, but it makes a solid revenge killer. Its 19 Speed and 18 pretty much means that, if you don't switch to a counter, you're going to get smashed.

Once again, I am NOT suggesting that any of these things can switch in, or that there's really anything special about them. Nothing is strong defensively against LO Krow, but there are plenty of things that can take a hit and KO.

Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Ponyta? Probably not. Ponyta speed ties and can cripple with Will-o-Wisp (or, with luck, Flame Body) or KO with Flare Blitz/Return. Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Trubbish? Only if it's not at full health (and thanks to Berry Juice + Recycle, Trubbish often is at full health). Trubbish can take a Brave Bird, recover all its health back with Berry Juice, and KO with Gunk Shot. Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Lickitung? Definitely not unless Lickitung is at half health or less. Lickitung can take a Brave Bird and either recoil stall with Wish or KO with Body Slam. That's what I mean. And there are plenty of other good mons that can, at the very least, take LO Krow down with them. A healthy Spritzee can take any attack from LO Krow relatively easily and KO back. Abra KOs as long as its Focus Sash is intact. Porygon can take a hit and use Thunder Wave or KO. Slowpoke, believe it or not, lives all of Murkrow's attacks and can use Thunder Wave. Lileep and Vullaby can KO or stall with recovery. Hell, even Timburr and Meditite can take Murkrow down with it.

If you use a team with Mienfoo, Meditite, Misdreavus, and Pawniard, you are asking to be revenge killed by Murkrow. If you use a team that's not quite so weak to Murkrow and play decently, LO Krow should never KO more than 2 of your pokes (and usually it should be more of a 1 for 1 trade). Yes, it absolutely murders things, but it also murders itself in the process. And there are plenty of things that can take it down, you just have to use them.

I don't think this is really a tremendously relevant discussion though, especially since I think that Murkrow should be banned. I was really only making the offhand comment that I didn't think the LO set was broken by itself; I agree that Murkrow is banworthy because of its versatility and the relative bulkiness of the other sets.

 

[chimp]

Once again, I am NOT suggesting that any of these things can switch in, or that there's really anything special about them. Nothing is strong defensively against LO Krow, but there are plenty of things that can take a hit and KO.

Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Ponyta? Probably not. Ponyta speed ties and can cripple with Will-o-Wisp (or, with luck, Flame Body) or KO with Flare Blitz/Return. Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Trubbish? Only if it's not at full health (and thanks to Berry Juice + Recycle, Trubbish often is at full health). Trubbish can take a Brave Bird, recover all its health back with Berry Juice, and KO with Gunk Shot. Is LO Krow going to want to come in to revenge kill Lickitung? Definitely not unless Lickitung is at half health or less. Lickitung can take a Brave Bird and either recoil stall with Wish or KO with Body Slam. That's what I mean. And there are plenty of other good mons that can, at the very least, take LO Krow down with them. A healthy Spritzee can take any attack from LO Krow relatively easily and KO back. Abra KOs as long as its Focus Sash is intact. Porygon can take a hit and use Thunder Wave or KO. Slowpoke, believe it or not, lives all of Murkrow's attacks and can use Thunder Wave. Lileep and Vullaby can KO or stall with recovery. Hell, even Timburr and Meditite can take Murkrow down with it.

If you use a team with Mienfoo, Meditite, Misdreavus, and Pawniard, you are asking to be revenge killed by Murkrow. If you use a team that's not quite so weak to Murkrow and play decently, LO Krow should never KO more than 2 of your pokes (and usually it should be more of a 1 for 1 trade). Yes, it absolutely murders things, but it also murders itself in the process. And there are plenty of things that can take it down, you just have to use them.

I don't think this is really a tremendously relevant discussion though, especially since I think that Murkrow should be banned. I was really only making the offhand comment that I didn't think the LO set was broken by itself; I agree that Murkrow is banworthy because of its versatility and the relative bulkiness of the other sets.

That makes more sense, but it still seems highly situational, and only works if those pokemon are healthy, and assuming Krow is revenging a fallen mon, they probably won't be. I agree with you though, LO Krow isn't as scary as some of its other sets.

 

[fliprushman]

I feel that Murkrow doesn't satisfy the qualification of being broken but I do feel it is making the environment less fun. I've been running a mixkrow for a little while now to test out the bird and have seen prankster, swagplay, parafusion, subkrow, etc. It's this versatility that I find that makes him difficult to play against, predict which pokemon you need to have on your team and put out against this guy. This can lead to the third qualification being a problem as players coming over to try out this great mode of competition could quickly be turned away by a pokemon that they don't know how to handle. I know learning the meta takes time but if something dominates the meta, everyone has to have one on their team to compete, and has this versatility, something like swirlix comes to mind, it's not something that should be allowed to be a viable for competitive play.

Meditite on the other hand is not even close to the bird in terms of dominating the meta. But then again, krow is there and it keeps meditite from being an absolute beast. I've had very little personal interaction with this mon but having played against a bunch, I don't think he should be banned. He may have access to moves that can hit his checks hard but ultimately, even with eviolite, struggles to take a hit from those checks if they survive those moves Meditite uses.

A meta without krow will need to happen first before I can say Meditite should be on the block. Krow is the biggest threat to LC right now and should be dealt with. Any after effects of this ban need some time to be felt and future suspect test may be necessary.

 

[User 468572]

Reserved as I have missed it. :|

 

[The Quasar]

Meditite


That’s a real surprise to see many players vote it for this suspect. Of course, it’s so far to be a weak ‘mon. Pure Power ability, an Adamant nature and a wide movepool guarantees frightful physical attack; Fake Out and Bullet Punch the right priority moves, very useful in a tier with match results always on knife's edge , then you have only chosen the right four and always it’s not so easy to do: Drain Punch but also High Jump King, ThunderPunch, Psycho Cut/ Zen Headbutt but also Poison Jab, Ice Punch and Rock Slide. I resume this concept later.

Furthemore, Psychic/Fighting typing helps it: dual STAB moves and good resistance from Psychic and Fighting too and neutral from omnipresent Knock Off. Standard Meditite carries Eviolite (and so more bulk) but LO and a scarf version are other possible solution for it. Finally, it can be the right destination from a baton-passer too. So, Meditite is undoubtedlya good choice for a XY LC team.

But it has two very important problems, I think. First its insufficient speed, Meditite's standard approach here uses 12 Speed (sigh). The scarf set is exactly the attempt to resolve that. But Scarf increase a problem that Meditite just has: moves vs counter and immunity. You must have some priority move (almost one), so you have to choice more; Drain Punch and Psycho Cut are commons, whichever are you doing you can find in error. There are many counters for Tite, someone quite popular, in detail Slowpoke, Spritzee, Honedge and Wynaut.

It’s not all but there is their usage for March.

| 33 | Slowpoke | 4.77759% | 2676 | 4.178% | 2141 | 4.159%
| 11 | Spritzee | 10.10095% | 4813 | 7.515% | 3580 | 6.954%
| 25 | Honedge | 6.10468% | 4011 | 6.263% | 3333 | 6.475%
| 62 | Wynaut | 2.73196% | 1757 | 2.743% | 1379 | 2.679%

Any choose you can do, could be wrong vs a pokemon above (for example without TP, you can’t hard-hitting Slowpoke, the same vs Honedge which is also immune to Drain Punch and the same again is with Spritzee without Poison Jab (deadly with MoonBlast).

Furthermore, there are a lot of ‘mons that could switch-in (better on immunity predict) or survive at Meditite’s attack. My thought is about ghosts like Misdreavus, fairy Snubbull and also Murkow (if I hope that will be banned) and Flying like Tailow and “new” Fletchling. Misdreavus is perhaps the better answer to Meditite’s because he’s immune to Fake Out/Drain Punch and can hit easily with Shadow Ball.

So, Meditite is surely a great pokemon, it is a good wallbreaker but I can try a way to fight against, you have too many checks to OHKOing it. I think it’s not for ban..nowsdays.