Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[prem]

except i also already provided that 2 forms of pawniard breaks that core. also after some prior damage, bulk up timburr (which is really good) also beats it. also it doesnt really beat taunt mienfoo who can do what it wants. meditite clearly only loses to elgyem while the other three pokemon can beat both of them in some given circumstances.

unless we just are ignoring what im saying at this point because im not throwing calcs up into the world

 

[Goddess Briyella]

except i also already provided that 2 forms of pawniard breaks that core. also after some prior damage, bulk up timburr (which is really good) also beats it. also it doesnt really beat taunt mienfoo who can do what it wants. meditite clearly only loses to elgyem while the other three pokemon can beat both of them in some given circumstances.

unless we just are ignoring what im saying at this point because im not throwing calcs up into the world

We've established that Pursuit Pawniard can beat this core. I am not denying this. It's just that I have only seen this once and so it's never been an issue for me because of its rarity from my experience.

Swords Dance Pawniard can obviously beat it but Pawniard will be hard pressed to set up with Thunder Wave, HP Fighting, and Trubbish's Drain Punch flying around, not to mention Spikes damage, which will ensure that non-Analytic HP Fighting (in the case of paralysis) and Drain Punch both kill after just one layer. That's just point blank.

 

[Artemisa]

I said Elgyem, not Trubbish. Trubbish obviously has a bunch of perks, Elgyem's main attraction is tanking Meditite or atleast trying.

 

[prem]

We've established that Pursuit Pawniard can beat this core. I am not denying this. It's just that I have only seen this once and so it's never been an issue for me because of its rarity from my experience.

Swords Dance Pawniard can obviously beat it but Pawniard will be hard pressed to set up with Thunder Wave, HP Fighting, and Trubbish's Drain Punch flying around, not to mention Spikes damage, which will ensure that non-Analytic HP Fighting (in the case of paralysis) and Drain Punch both kill after just one layer.

in the situation where pawniard comes in on elgyem and elgyem switches fearing knock off sd pawn wins. yes this is one situation but you say elgyem+ trubbish always beats this core so its whatever. saying that its never been an issue due to rarity when it still at least relatively popular (3/10 pawns use pursuit on a pokemon thats on 50% of 1760+ teams) just makes no sense as an arguement.

also timburr can beat the core just by using bulk up when trubbish comes in because trubbish cant do jack to timburr bulking up. and with prior damage from meditite, +1 knock off will kill elgyem (im pretty sure timburr is faster if not then this arguement can just be considered invalid).


the point is using a core with a subpar pokemon who is weak to literally the most common move in the tier and struggles to find moments to come in on anything BESIDES meditite itself to not even always beat the combination of pokemon you say this core can beat is not very attractive. to me it just shows you are overstretching a team to fail to do what its trying to do. and if you are trying to beat meditite and can still consistently lose to it, its a real problem.

 

[rabby]

I'll throw out that I don't even use Meditite and Elgyem causes non-trivial problems. It's not easy to take down when nothing particularly wants to take switch in to risk the thunder wave/analytic hits. Paired with certain threats, it becomes a very potent force on the opponent. It may not have very high usage, but that's not necessarily a reflection on the Pokemon itself.

But this thread is not about Elgyem viability. At this point the discussion is going in circles and the discussion has been less than productive for a couple pages.

 

[Kappaten]

I think I speak for many of us, Goddess Briyella, when I say that I don't feel any better about Meditite's power being in check because of the existence of a single core, disregarding rarity.

Do you have other examples of cores that can beat Meditite + other common threats? Perhaps bringing up other options would give us more to chew on than the mere viability of Elgyem (which you have made very clear up to this point).

 

[TUO]

I think I speak for many of us, Goddess Briyella, when I say that I don't feel any better about Meditite's power being in check because of the existence of a single core, disregarding rarity.

Do you have other examples of cores that can beat Meditite + other common threats? Perhaps bringing up other options would give us more to chew on than the mere viability of Elgyem (which you have made very clear up to this point).

There are a decent amount of pokemon that can loosely deal with Meditite, like Larvesta/Growlithe/Snubbull, 3 pokemon that are not bad, Corkscrew mentioned a lot of cores or pokes that can deal with those threats. The main issue is how Meditite's longevity/power either lets it outlast those pokemon, or still being able to do its job regardless of its checks because of its raw power.

EDIT: inb4 duo destrucion returns with Elygem/Trubbish

 

[boo836]

Slowpoke is weak to Thunder Punch, Meditite's most common coverage move, and is 2HKOed by it. Elgyem is not and can take two.

Honedge's ability to punish switches it forces is severely lacking in comparison to that of Elgyem (the most it can do is Swords Dance or Autotomize), and Honedge additionally has no means of continuous recovery, whereas Elgyem does.



I don't care what its usage stats say if it does the job I specifically want it to do the vast majority of the time, while also providing paralysis support and is protected from Knock Off by a Spikes stacking teammate that is put there to deal with it.



Umm what lol

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO

This is standard Murkrow. This comparison makes zero sense, and if you're talking about checking instead of countering, the example you're using is completely different than Elgyem dealing with standard Meditite.


With all due respect to everyone posting, the thing I mentioned about Stone Edge Mienfoo was just an example and I didn't mean for it to go off on a tangent that distracts the thread from what the discussion should really be about. I also don't mean to make this thread all about defending Elgyem but when people keep attacking it as an answer to Meditite, I'm doing what I can in response because I find it effective and want people to know it's effective. However, I think this thread could probably get a little back on track about Meditite and less about Mienfoo and Elgyem now.

Yeah, I realized I miscalced the Murkrow thing because I accidentally put Liechi over Life Orb. That was my error, and it really says that I shouldn't be arguing without any sleep due to continuously vomiting over the past 48 hours. However, I'll keep going.

You're still ignoring the basic point of what I'm saying: you're referring to something that you'd use SIMPLY to beat Meditite. You're not concerned with efficiency, but first and foremost with getting past Tite. I dunno about you, but that REALLY does say something about how broken Meditite is. You wouldn't justify Excadrill being OU in 5th Gen because of Bronzong (no, no one runs Mold Breaker, don't give me that), or anything of the sort. I'll admit that my first example was faulty, but the point still stands: Just because something has counters, it doesn't prevent it from being broken.

Though typically we don't usually think of Pokemon with counters as possibly being broken, many broken Pokemon have niche counters and checks that developed in the metagames they were in prior to being banned. Hell, I remember people running a terrible Scarf Cresselia set just to deal with Garchomp in DPP. When you have to run something like Elgyem that frankly isn't that good in LC, then there's obviously something wrong with what you're trying to counter. Elgyem is an example of a nice counter, as without the existence of Meditite, it's pretty safe to say that there are far superior options to Elgyem that you could use without having to give up support (and receive a better form of support).

Don't dismiss usage stats simply because something works. When Elgyem isn't used, it's not relevant in the slightest.

 

[sparktrain]

Just because something has counters, it doesn't prevent it from being broken.

To add to this statement, I'm going to bring this up again that Meditite's near-counters are all screwed over by Meditite's second-most commonly used item: Choice Scarf. And at high levels of play?

Choice Scarf 45.873%
Eviolite 42.700%
Life Orb 9.748%
Other 1.678%

Its most used item.

Tricking a Choice Scarf onto them is barely a risky play, since Elgyem, Honedge, whatever all are slow anyway and won't be able to make much use of it. Not to mention a large part of their bulk is lost in the process, severely hampering their ability to check Meditite any further.

There are a decent amount of pokemon that can loosely deal with Meditite, like Larvesta/Growlithe/Snubbull, 3 pokemon that are not bad, Corkscrew mentioned a lot of cores or pokes that can deal with those threats. The main issue is how Meditite's longevity/power either lets it outlast those pokemon, or still being able to do its job regardless of its checks because of its raw power.

This sums my feelings up quite nicely.

 

[Rowan]

Okay so we can use Pursuit Pawniard to deal with some of Meditite's checks and counters. That's cool... Except, because so many things check Meditite that doesn't even allow it to completely wreck. Yes, you've removed a Psychic or Ghost, good for you. Now you've still got to take out at least one Flying, Fire, or Fairy Pokemon which are also extremely common. Larvesta, that beats Pawniard/Meditite/Mienfoo with ease. Snubbull is also another cool mon that can come in to check fighters and has TWave and EQ to stop Pawniard from switching in. I posted more Pokemon earlier that can really help against Meditite/Pawniard core on like page 7 or something.

If a team doesn't have at least 1 Flying, Fire or Fairy mon, then it's dumb

also stfu about a core of Elgyem/Trubbish, it's not the only relevant core in the metagame. Kappaten is right, Goddess Briyella, you aren't proving anything just because 1 core can beat Meditite teams. If we were all forced to run LGM/Trash it'd be a pretty shit meta

 

[StarDasher]

Murkrow is so fast and powerful and it also has prankster. Its just so annoying. (unless u have scarfed pokemon that can kill it)

 

[TUO]

Okay so we can use Pursuit Pawniard to deal with some of Meditite's checks and counters. That's cool... Except, because so many things check Meditite that doesn't even allow it to completely wreck. Yes, you've removed a Psychic or Ghost, good for you. Now you've still got to take out at least one Flying, Fire, or Fairy Pokemon which are also extremely common. Larvesta, that beats Pawniard/Meditite/Mienfoo with ease. Snubbull is also another cool mon that can come in to check fighters and has TWave and EQ to stop Pawniard from switching in. I posted more Pokemon earlier that can really help against Meditite/Pawniard core on like page 7 or something.

If a team doesn't have at least 1 Flying, Fire or Fairy mon, then it's dumb

also stfu about a core of Elgyem/Trubbish, it's not the only relevant core in the metagame. Kappaten is right, Goddess Briyella, you aren't proving anything just because 1 core can beat Meditite teams. If we were all forced to run LGM/Trash it'd be a pretty shit meta

Meditite isn't really supposed to 6-0 a team or anything. However with the Psy/Ghost gone it will be able to do its job of being a freakin pain in the ass by abusing switchins and getting a KO or doing a lot of damage to a poke. Even with a Ghost unless you have a Psychic, Meditite can keep doing its job of doing damage and breaking down walls either as a bulky attacker or a revenge killer. Combine this with the minimal opportunity cost and longevity, does it really need to sweep an opposing team once a Psychic is gone to be broken? I'm pretty sure having minimal opportunity cost to have a much greater effect on a game with its power is enough to be considered broken, at least to me it is.

 

[Pancham]

I think I speak for many of us, Goddess Briyella, when I say that I don't feel any better about Meditite's power being in check because of the existence of a single core, disregarding rarity.

Do you have other examples of cores that can beat Meditite + other common threats? Perhaps bringing up other options would give us more to chew on than the mere viability of Elgyem (which you have made very clear up to this point).

Wynaut Sritzee and Trubbish. There are plenty of cores that work really well, and are able to beat Meditite and other major threats. You just have to have an open mind and try to be creative, really. It's called adapting to a metagame in which Meditite is a great Pokemon, but not really overpowered enough to be banned. Meditite is a great Pokemon, but I am not really sold on the idea that because it has 4mss when it comes to wall breaking, it is a mon that should be banned.

 

[Artemisa]

Okay so we can use Pursuit Pawniard to deal with some of Meditite's checks and counters. That's cool... Except, because so many things check Meditite that doesn't even allow it to completely wreck. Yes, you've removed a Psychic or Ghost, good for you. Now you've still got to take out at least one Flying, Fire, or Fairy Pokemon which are also extremely common. Larvesta, that beats Pawniard/Meditite/Mienfoo with ease. Snubbull is also another cool mon that can come in to check fighters and has TWave and EQ to stop Pawniard from switching in. I posted more Pokemon earlier that can really help against Meditite/Pawniard core on like page 7 or something.

If a team doesn't have at least 1 Flying, Fire or Fairy mon, then it's dumb

also stfu about a core of Elgyem/Trubbish, it's not the only relevant core in the metagame. Kappaten is right, Goddess Briyella, you aren't proving anything just because 1 core can beat Meditite teams. If we were all forced to run LGM/Trash it'd be a pretty shit meta

Larvesta does beat those mons (Meditite to an extent), however if Larvesta loses eviolite a combination of Drain Punch + Psychic stab beats it. These mons have to preserve their eviolite or else you will lose to Meditite.

They can beat it 1v1, but you can't check it anymore without being 2hko'd. You'd have to fodder something or play mindgames just to have a sot on taking down Meditite. Same with the other things you called checks, if they lose eviolite they won't stand a chance vs Meditite unless you somehow managed to get the 1v1.

Wynaut Sritzee and Trubbish. There are plenty of cores that work really well, and are able to beat Meditite and other major threats. You just have to have an open mind and try to be creative, really. It's called adapting to a metagame in which Meditite is a great Pokemon, but not really overpowered enough to be banned. Meditite is a great Pokemon, but I am not really sold on the idea that because it has 4mss when it comes to wall breaking, it is a mon that should be banned.

All you did was add wynaut, since that Psychic Stab fucks up Trubbish and Spritzee (To an extent), That core is still purely for Meditite, you used three team slots just to take down Meditite. Now that you are Meditite proof what about covering NP Missy, or SS Tirtouga, or SS Clamperl, SD Pawniard, etc etc.

Yeah you can be creative, but if you have a mon on your team that's purpose is beating one pokemon and does nothing else to support your team, that pokemon is p much broken.

 

[Rowan]

All you did was add wynaut, since that Psychic Stab fucks up Trubbish and Spritzee (To an extent), That core is still purely for Meditite, you used three team slots just to take down Meditite. Now that you are Meditite proof what about covering NP Missy, or SS Tirtouga, or SS Clamperl, SD Pawniard, etc etc.

Yeah you can be creative, but if you have a mon on your team that's purpose is beating one pokemon and does nothing else to support your team, that pokemon is p much broken.

wynaut, spritzee, trubbish isn't exactly creative. spritzee+trubbish is pretty standard shit. Wynaut traps tite, but man it does so much more than that. People saying wynaut sucks in a Meditite-less meta are dumb, it has the ability to trap so much shit. it almost always leads to a free kill or a free set-up for something

 

[Artemisa]

wynaut, spritzee, trubbish isn't exactly creative. spritzee+trubbish is pretty standard shit. Wynaut traps tite, but man it does so much more than that. People saying wynaut sucks in a Meditite-less meta are dumb, it has the ability to trap so much shit. it almost always leads to a free kill or a free set-up for something

I never said it was bad and I know those more, but the reason ot was added to that core specifically was to 100% beat it. Spritzee + Trubbish can lose to Meditite at times, especially if it's Poison Jab + Psychic Stab. Without Wynaut that core won't be as consistent, since you isolate Meditite into a 1v1 you Tits can't win (Unless there is that rare possibility it has BP)

 

[Pancham]

I never said it was bad and I know those more, but the reason ot was added to that core specifically was to 100% beat it. Spritzee + Trubbish can lose to Meditite at times, especially if it's Poison Jab + Psychic Stab. Without Wynaut that core won't be as consistent, since you isolate Meditite into a 1v1 you Tits can't win (Unless there is that rare possibility it has BP)

Actually, that is not true. Wynaut was added to this core over Elgyem because it beats stuff that is not only named Meditite. The post I quoted asked for a core that not only beats Meditite, but also other top tier threats in general. You merely implied that Wynaut is only there for Meditite. Unlike Elgyem, Wynaut is not fully worthless when facing a team in which Meditite is not present. As for SS Tirt and SD Pawn, you can use prediction and guess what your opponent is going to do. Tirt, for example, outspeeds Wynaut, 11 Spe vs 9, meaning you can either Destiny Bond as they Smash, then Encore the following turn, or Encore to start off with. Though, that scenario implies Tirt and Wynaut are in at the same time, which would be an awful play bad the Tirt user. I merely used those 3 Pokemon as an example of a core that not only beats Meditite, but also plenty other top tier threats in the tier simply because it was the only core I could think of at the time, seeing as though I just woke up. Also, if you soo need to, you can forego Cottonee over Spritzee, which has the potential to add more support to your team and enables you to not only beat other F thing types as Spritzee does, but act as the best counter to SS Tirt in the tier. Though, as Cork said, that is not exactly being creative, as Cottonee is, in my opinion, one of the best Pokemon in this metagame. However, the use of Cottonee over Sritzee also covers you from the likes of Carvanha, which is not only a scary sight to see because it is ugly, but also because it is a good cleaner and, also, wall breaker in this tier, thanks to not only Speed boost, which allows it to go Adamant, but an Attack stat of 90.

Also, I would like for people on this thread to stop putting words in peoples' mouths that they did not imply nor even state in their post. I don't really see how you even implied that Wynaut is there just for Meditite when it checks a ton of other shit that could otherwise harm Spritzee and Trubbish.

EDIT: Ignore these fucking typos. iPad keeps autocorrecting Pokemon names to fucking shitty shit like "eve ditties" .......

 

[Artemisa]

Actually that is not true. Wynaut was added to this core over Elgyem because it beats stuff that is not only named Meditite. The post I quoted asked for a core that not only beats Meditite, but also other top tier threats in general. You merely implied that Wynaut is only there for Meditite. Unlike Elgyem, Wynaut is not fully worthless when facing a team in which Meditite is present. As for SS Tirt and SD Pawn, you can use prediction and guess what your opponent is going to do. As for Tirt, it outspeeds Wynaut, 11 Spe vs 9, meaning you can either Destiny Bond as they Smash, or Encore to start off with. Also, if you soo need to, you can forego Cottonee over Spritzee, which has the potential to add more support to your team and enables you to not only beat other F thing types as Spritzee does, but act as the best counter to SS Tirt in the tier. Though, as record said, that is not exactly being creative, as Cottonee is, in my opinion, one of the best Pokemon in this metagame.

I never said it couldn't do other things, I saying without Wynaut that core itself isn't as successful at reliably taking down Meditite. Also look at the typing of the core Fairy + Pure Psychic + Sticky Holder (Preferably Poison), you don't even have to run the Fairy. Psychic type has no weakness to Meditite's physical movepool, but if it's eviolite is knock off neutral hits will probably 2HKO. Untop of that it has to live a knock off.

 

[Pancham]

As I said, the post I quoted didn't ask for cores that are only there to handle Meditite and partners, it asked for cores that can handle a wide array of top tier threats, which just happens to include Meditite. I could easily give a core that handles top tier threats while excluding Meditite, then just add <insert niche Psychic-type Meditite counter here>, though this just makes the arguments stating Meditite is an over centralizing factor in the tier, and forces people to run niche junk that would otherwise see no usage a lot stronger. Thusly so, the only reason I even posted a core is because the poster implied that Elgyem and Trubbish is the only core in the tier, or just wanted to know if there others in tier that handles Meditite, and what other Pokemon the given core can handle. The fairy is there to do just that: handle other Pokemon that can threaten to take down the Psychic + Trubbish core. You are simply over-reading my posts, and picking out single points I am making to help try to prove your point. You are making hasty generalizations.

The core I listed is not there just to handle Meditite, it also does a decent job at handling Murkrow, seeing as though Murkrow doesn't like Spritzee, Timburr, Mienfoo, Croagunk, NP Misdreavus, Wynaut can call Misdreavus' Shadow Ball bluff and Encore a Nasty Plot or Will o Wisp, and others. As I said, you can even use Cottonee over Spritzee, which makes you more prone to Murkrow, if you don't have Evio Tirt, Archen, or Chinchou also on your team, in order to more reliably handle Carvanha and Tirtouga.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Kappaten is right, Goddess Briyella, you aren't proving anything just because 1 core can beat Meditite teams. If we were all forced to run LGM/Trash it'd be a pretty shit meta

I agree that it would be bad if we were all forced to run this core, but that is not the case. As you and others have said, tons of viable and relevant Pokemon check Meditite, take advantage of it, and keep it from getting out of hand. All I did with this is present an alternative that eases the situation, and I explained how it does so. I didn't mean for it to ever derail the thread but when people kept demanding repeated explanation/reasoning and ignorantly calling it "shitty" without considering the numerous advantages of it that I was forced to repeat, I spoke up to defend it because I know that it works for me in the vast majority of cases.

I think that people continuing to question the validity of this core (after I've explained it 6 times or more) are a large part of why this thread is getting off track, and that the focus should be brought back to the topic at hand, which is whether Meditite is banworthy or not. I do not find it difficult to deal with, and people need to stop pretending like the core I brought up is the only thing stopping Meditite and friends from tearing up Little Cup.

 

[Artemisa]

"I never said it couldn't do other things, I saying without Wynaut that core itself isn't as successful at reliably taking down Meditite"

I'm glad you your core beats other mons, but without a pure psychic you aren't reliably beating Meditite. That's what I'm saying.

Some of those pokemon (Larvesta, Ponyta, Misdreavus, Honedge, Slowpoke, Elgyem, Spritzee, Cottonee, Growlithe, Snubbull, Wynaut) are switched in to knock of users, which is bad because they need eviolite in order to tank hits from Meditite's stabs. Even then Meditite can run some coverage and not worry about eviolite. Larvesta is my Mienfoo / Pawn / Timburr switch in, but if my evio gets knock off then I will get 2hko'd my almost any type of combination moves from Meditite. The same applies with some of the mons on that list.

 

[Anty]

I'm not a too skilled lc player, but i do have something to say. People are saying tite isnt broken because you can use cores of two or three to counter it, but they dont really mention what other pokemon it can beat and if it is worth using in a tite-less meta. It's similar to lando-i theory in bw. If you are forced to run obscure counters (such as eglym) then it is broken, especcially when it has to be in a core. One pokemon shouldnt have to greatly effect team building, yes you should put in counters for pawniard or mienfoo, but they should be able to wall other things and shouldnt be a waste of space if tite isnt there. I shouldnt have to put an eglym in my team just in case the opponent has a meditie.

Im not sure if i explained it well, but tldr; if it forces obscure couters, its broken

 

[Heysup]

I was going to reply to some things since I've been absent for like 2-3 pages but wow this thread got shitted up fast. All of these things have either been brought up or refuted and all that's happening is that people are getting lazier and vague such that their arguments can't even be understood. As in, I clicked reply to a bunch of posts to respond to them, but I decided not to since the response would have been "so??" or a link to a previous post. I think someone posted some shit like "don't post novels" (was probably macle (gg) and then someone else) which people took as "post stupid shit without backing it up". So with that in mind, I decided I'm going to post a somewhat long post of my updated stances and either that will be that or I'll get some real legitimate feedback.

Murkow

Nothing has changed since the first post. Besides myself, other arguments have been clear and backed up by calculations and counter arguments have not held any weight (especially the recoil thing....do people not realize that for Murkrow to die to recoil it will need to have done roughly 300% (66 dmg) of its total (above average) HP?).

Meditite

My stance has somewhat changed on Meditite. To preface, if there was an abstain option, I would still take it. If I started at a scale of 1 being "certainly keep Meditite" and 10 being "certainly ban Meditite" I would have started at a 5 and moved to about a 6 or 6.5 - where I would say 7 would be a comfortable "ban" vote".

To be honest, my personal usage of Meditite has slightly decreased since Sneasel/Swirlix have been banned. However, that's mostly due to Mienfoo's U-turning capabilities to Murkrow so I feel that point would be moot anyway. Meditite, when I do use it, it's always a crux of my team. It's gotten a kill, at least, every game I've used it. Against offensive teams, it's the bane of their existence. It can Fake Out + Bullet Punch to KO an embarrassing amount of Pokemon while healing itself up on the occasional Porygon/Pawniard/Chinchou/etc. If I ever see a Honedge or Slowpoke or whatever the fuck Elgyem I just wait until I get full Spikes/SR and Knock Off because i'll get so many opportunities to set up everything else. If I see a Spritzee lul I set up Spikes with Trubbish. Have you ever tried to play around Meditite with a Magnemite or Chinchou Volt Switching all over the place with hazards up? It doesn't work. The counters of Meditite are too one-dimensional and weak. I love playing vs Meditite counters even with Meditite on my team, albeit not as much as I do without Meditite on my team.

I knew all of these things before, but after talking about it in this thread for a while, it became clearer. While the ban arguments (if you are for whatever reason unclear of what I'm talking about, read the latter half of this post) would only slightly push Meditite over the line, I figured I would be in for a tougher decision due to any anti-ban arguments dragging him right back into "not sure" territory. That simply didn't happen. I'm not going to say the anti-ban arguments pushed Meditite over the banning line, it's just the fact that they are so weak and desperate it had no effect on what I thought while the banning arguments at least nudged Meditite. The counters, proven to be a weak argument repeatedly by the fact that it can pick a couple to bypass, and to be honest, it doesn't need to due to them being weak in basically every scenario and bait for other powerful Pokemon. This was the wall for Meditite anti-ban arguments. There was never a point where I was like "there are drawbacks to using Meditite". This was even true for checks. There was no Pokemon that could revenge kill Meditite that was as threatening as it was. Further, the Pokemon that people thought were safe bets for KOing Meditite like Fletchling and Misdreavus actually aren't as safe as people thought. That's basically the only aired point against Meditite and it's not pursuasive.

Meditite doesn't sweep. It bulldozes or plows through like a powerforward in Hockey, taking hits but shrugging them off and using them to gain even more momentum.

So here is the last chance for someone to sway the scale from a 6 down to around 4-5 and it better have nothing to do with anything already listed in this thread as those arguments have been weakened to the point of nothing already.

 

[Pancham]

"I never said it couldn't do other things, I saying without Wynaut that core itself isn't as successful at reliably taking down Meditite"

I'm glad you your core beats other mons, but without a pure psychic you aren't reliably beating Meditite. That's what I'm saying.

What does that argument have to do with anything. Of fucking a course a core in which one poke takes neutral damage from and the other is weak to Psychic-type moves will not be walling Meditite. Sometimes I feel as though you are posting just to post. Your "arguments" are literally the most obvious observations you can make. The reason I didn't address that at first is because it's so blatantly obvious, that I was astounded someone even used it to try to disprove, or discredit, something. For clarification...

"so??"

As for Heysup's argument for Meditite, I am not quite sure we're reading the same pro-ban arguments. Really, the only arguments I've read that would make me want to ban Meditite are from, ironically enough, anti-ban Meditite arguments. However, I stated earlier that Elgyem, Solosis and whatever the fuck else worthless Psychic-type pokemon used to "sure-fire" counter Meditite, actually make Meditite appear to be an over-centralizing factor in the metagame, when such arguments are not quite true at all. However, as Heysup has just said, the use of these pokemon allows set-up bait for pokemon which Spike stack, or, otherwise, sweep, like SD Pawn or NP Missy. Th use of these pokemon, as previously stated, quite evidently make it easier for Meditite to actually bulldoze through your team. That being said, as I was quite evidently for the no ban of Meditite, I am now quite on the fence at about a 6 as well. (However, this is not at all because of arguments I've read from people for the banning of Meditite, as I said.)

 

[Artemisa]

What does that argument have to do with anything. Of fucking a course a core in which one poke takes neutral damage and the other is weak to Psychic-type moves will not be walling Meditite. Sometimes I feel as though you are posting just to post. Your "arguments" are literally the most obvious observations you can make. The reason I didn't address that is because it's so blatantly obvious, that I was astounded someone even used it to try to disprove, or discredit, something.

All cores have a chance to lose to Meditite, unless you slap a random bulky Psychic. Wynaut is a different case because it isn't random, obv. I can add Musharna and with a unoriginal core and call that very creative. If LC had other psychic mons that aren't ass and had other uses instead of beating Meditite, then yeah it would be a legitimate core. Other than I'm not putting a random mon just for one threat. The only pure psychic mons that aren't ass are Wynaut and maybe Elgyem.