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If Espeon has the 56 speed EVs needed to outspeed standard Whimsicott, there is a chance that standard Mandibuzz will 2HKO (Foul Play will inflict similar damage); furthermore I don't see why Mandibuzz wouldn't just use a little attack investment to bring down a giant threat to a defensive team, or to at least have a good chance to break Espeon's substitute with U-Turn.
I am aware that the alternative I gave is not the best solution to the problem, but Mandibuzz is an example of a common Pokémon that will make the match against a Baton Pass team easier with only a slight alteration to its standard set/spread: the anti-ban side hopes for the metagame to adapt to the new threat of Baton Pass, and this is just one example of the many possible outcomes.
Espeon doesn't run any Speed on BP teams, it's has a fully defensive spread. Also, it'll come in with +2 Def, at least +2 Speed, & behind a Sub. Also, a good BP player isn't going to leave Espeon out when Mandibuzz appears. That's the point of Sylveon. So they deal with your Mandibuzz (which you've built to be weaker against every other playstyle), what now? A well built team of any playstyle can deal with any playstyle they come up against. Full BP teams inhibits that to the point where dealing with BP makes you so much weaker against every other playstyle, & even then it's not a guarantee you'll win. How is that not detrimental to the health of the meta?
Those who say that the metagame will adapt to full Baton Pass teams should provide some concrete examples of how this is supposed to happen. Do you believe that every team will start running Haze Quagsire (and lol Murkrow)? Do you think Imprison Musharna is actually viable? Please elaborate. Saying that the metagame will adapt to Baton Pass means absolutely nothing if you're not explaining how that's going to happen.
Also, it should be noted that forcing the metagame to adapt to a given strategy/Pokémon is acceptable only until a certain degree. We could unban Kyogre and force the metagame to adapt to it by runnning subpar Pokémon like Ludiclolo, Parasect and Gastrodon. Does this mean that we should unban Kyogre? If adapting to a certain threat means being forced to run obscure/niche Pokémon, then that's a clue that that given threat is probably unhealthy for the metagame.
If you really think that adapting to Baton Pass is possible without having to completely twist a team, then please explain how.
BP sees most of its use during suspect tests. Ever wonder why that is? It;s because it is a quick and easy way to score wins even against players much more skilled than you, making it the perfect laddering tool.
Espeon doesn't run any Speed on BP teams, it's has a fully defensive spread. Also, it'll come in with +2 Def, at least +2 Speed, & behind a Sub. Also, a good BP player isn't going to leave Espeon out when Mandibuzz appears. That's the point of Sylveon. So they deal with your Mandibuzz (which you've built to be weaker against every other playstyle), what now? A well built team of any playstyle can deal with any playstyle they come up against. Full BP teams inhibits that to the point where dealing with BP makes you so much weaker against every other playstyle, & even then it's not a guarantee you'll win. How is that not detrimental to the health of the meta?
Espeon doesn't just come in with +2 Def, +2 Speed and behind a Sub for free. Such assumptions are flatout ridiculous. That's like arguing that MegaZard X is broken because it received a free Shell Smash beforehand. Stop with these arguments please. And yes a Baton Pass team has ways to deal with pokemon that can cause issues such as Mandibuzz. Isn't every good team built this way? These arguments got out of hand way too long ago and it has to stop.
Also, stop with the argument that the entire metagame has to suddenly adapt to Baton Pass by running uncommon pokemon because they don't have to. I've had plenty of battles where I was using Baton Pass but lost because the opponent outplayed me (and the other way around too for that matter). Baton Pass is not an auto-win. Not even against the majority of playstyles. And no, preparing for Baton Pass doesn't guarantee that you'll win every single time. Does it not occur to people that such arguments are ridiculous? In the end you can come as prepared as you want, if your opponent consistently makes better plays than you then he's going to win regardless of whether he's using Baton Pass or DeoSharp or Stall or any other playstyle. It depends on skill and teambuilding, there's no auto-wins involved. At all.
Espeon doesn't just come in with +2 Def, +2 Speed and behind a Sub for free. Such assumptions are flatout ridiculous. That's like arguing that MegaZard X is broken because it received a free Shell Smash beforehand. Stop with these arguments please. And yes a Baton Pass team has ways to deal with pokemon that can cause issues such as Mandibuzz. Isn't every good team built this way? These arguments got out of hand way too long ago and it has to stop.
Although it might not always have +2 Def and a Sub, a large majority of the time, it can very easily be passed some speed boosts thanks to Scolipede. Most of the time, Scolipede can also get a Sub or Defense boost and pass that to Espeon or another Pokemon on a Baton Pass team.
Also, stop with the argument that the entire metagame has to suddenly adapt to Baton Pass by running uncommon pokemon because they don't have to. I've had plenty of battles where I was using Baton Pass but lost because the opponent outplayed me (and the other way around too for that matter). Baton Pass is not an auto-win. Not even against the majority of playstyles. And no, preparing for Baton Pass doesn't guarantee that you'll win every single time. Does it not occur to people that such arguments are ridiculous? In the end you can come as prepared as you want, if your opponent consistently makes better plays than you then he's going to win regardless of whether he's using Baton Pass or DeoSharp or Stall or any other playstyle. It depends on skill and teambuilding, there's no auto-wins involved. At all.
Used by a decent player, Baton Pass does create auto-wins against a large majority of teams on the ladder (excluding wins by hax). Some people simply forfeit as soon as they see their opponent playing Baton Pass while others are overwhelmed by the stats boosts that Baton Pass teams easily rack up. I'd say that most teams on the ladder lack dedicated Baton Pass counters like Haze Murkrow or Imprison Baton Pass Musharna. Without these Pokemon, full Baton Pass teams can easily win. Phazers and Taunt users fail against Espeon or Ingrain Smeargle. Although strong special/physical attackers can put pressure on the Baton Pass team, Baton Pass teams have evolved to dealing with strong attackers (ex. using Zapdos, Vaporeon, Sylveon) and can pull of a few CMs or Iron Defenses to win.
Against teams with Haze Murkrow or Imprison Baton Pass Musharna, its hard to see how Baton Pass teams stand a chance. Spore from Smeargle helps, but the opposing team can simply sack a Pokemon, send it Murkow and Haze away all the stat boosts, ruining the Baton Pass chain. Without their stats boosts, the full Baton Pass team will easily fall to the opponent's team. Here, it looks like using Baton Pass creates an auto-lose situation.
Although it might not always have +2 Def and a Sub, a large majority of the time, it can very easily be passed some speed boosts thanks to Scolipede. Most of the time, Scolipede can also get a Sub or Defense boost and pass that to Espeon or another Pokemon on a Baton Pass team.
Used by a decent player, Baton Pass does create auto-wins against a large majority of teams on the ladder (excluding wins by hax). Some people simply forfeit as soon as they see their opponent playing Baton Pass while others are overwhelmed by the stats boosts that Baton Pass teams easily rack up. I'd say that most teams on the ladder lack dedicated Baton Pass counters like Haze Murkrow or Imprison Baton Pass Musharna. Without these Pokemon, full Baton Pass teams can easily win. Phazers and Taunt users fail against Espeon or Ingrain Smeargle. Although strong special/physical attackers can put pressure on the Baton Pass team, Baton Pass teams have evolved to dealing with strong attackers (ex. using Zapdos, Vaporeon, Sylveon) and can pull of a few CMs or Iron Defenses to win.
Against teams with Haze Murkrow or Imprison Baton Pass Musharna, its hard to see how Baton Pass teams stand a chance. Spore from Smeargle helps, but the opposing team can simply sack a Pokemon, send it Murkow and Haze away all the stat boosts, ruining the Baton Pass chain. Without their stats boosts, the full Baton Pass team will easily fall to the opponent's team. Here, it looks like using Baton Pass creates an auto-lose situation.
Are you talking from personal experience? Because all of this is made up and untrue. Also, Murkrow and Musharna are not relevant whatsoever in OU. Explain how Baton Pass creates auto-wins against a large of majority of teams on the ladder, without theorymonning this time please.
I'm glad you brought this point up, because I actually bought into it for a while. If Scoliopede and Espeon are broken as BP supporters, is the same way as, say, Mega-Lucario is broken as a sweeper, should we not ban them? Of course, you cold use them outside of BP, with a different set, and they wouldn't be broken, but couldn't you use Mega-Lucario as a phyical wall and have that not be broken?
After thinking about it, I think there are two main reasons for this :
- There is only one BP team. Some Pokemon are broken on Stall without being broken on Hyper Offense and vice-versa. But it's difficult to treat Baton Pass as an entire playstyle when there's only one viable Baton Pass team. Banning Espeon and Scoliopede solely for there role on a team that is broken in its entirety seems like a waste of a Pokemon, especially since that team is radically diffeent form any other team. I'm not sure if we would have banned Mega-Lucario if it was only broken as part of a single broken team, as opposed to the many, many broken teams it was a part of (which were turned broken solely because of it. - WalLuke is unvaible. Only a moron would use Mega-Lucario as a physical wall, simply because it is completely outclassed. In fact, every possible Mega-Lucario set was either broken or unviable. Scoliopede and Espeon, however, have decent niches outside of Baton Pass teams. Scoliopede is a good cleaner that pretty much can't be outsped without priority, while Espeon is a dual screener that bounces back hazards and status. By banning Espeon and Scoliopede, will will lose something of value. This was not the case for Mega-Lucario.
These are the two main arguments I can think of, but I may be missing some.
Also, what on earth happened to this thread? Last time I checked, we pretty much all silently agreed that BP was broken and were debating how to nerf it, it not whether or not to nerf it! Could we please go back to the "BP cap vs banning/nerfing of Espeon and Scoliopede" debate? Both sides had very valid arguments and made you think about how the approach BP, while this whole "just deal with it" nonsense is... ugh.
On a side note, I've actually tried out a semi BP team with 3 BP users to test whether or not it is broken. I'm still near the bottom of the ladder, so it's a bit hard to tell, but the team I'm using (which is of Scoliopede+Espeon+Sylveon+Victini as a reciever+2 fillers) seems a tad broken to me, even though I really wish I had Vaporeon. The only things I lost to so far were Talonflame, Volcarona, a combination of Mega Charizard-X and Blissey, and some random stuff BP auto-loses to such as CritDra and Curse. But as I said, it's still the low ladder and I haven't spotted any attempts at phazing so far.
I have never found it so easy and effortless to ladder. I do wish that a more experienced player, preferably one that has also tried out full BP, would use this kind of team on the higher ladder and tell us if the experience of using full BP and semi-BP with 3 users is the same. The only major difference for me is that when passing to your main sweeper, you can't actually pass back, and therefore, you can mess up your chain. Then again, you can use Sylveon to sweep, but Victini is ridiculously powerful after 8-10 boosts, far more so than Sylveon. You really only pass to Victini once you're 100% sure you can completely sweep without getting phazed out. I guess you could use Vaporeon over Sylveon, if you want to gain bulk but don't bind losing offensive presence. The last 2 slots are pretty much filler to deal with common BP checks : at the moment, I use Scarf Hearan with Ancientpower and Landorus, though Thundurus is probably better for Pinsir, and the team does need something to deal with Mega Charizard-X.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who seriously considers banning scolipede or espeon an option, but nobody's solidly refuted my logic, so I'm going to stick with it until someone does, or the mods make a decision.
As to the wall lucario, I have no clue what that has to do with anything. We ban things by their best set, and lucario's best set was his offensive one. Similarly, scolipede and espeon's best sets are their bp sets (scolipede's cleaning set doesn't make a team broken, so no, and espeon is largely considered unviable outside of bp). Their other sets have nothing to do with their potential to be broken.
If scolipede or espeon (and the support they give) are deemed to the breaking element of bp, then they should be at least considered for a ban. Your first point isn't incorrect, so a complex ban would have warrant, but before we get to that, we have to convince all these theorymoners that bp is indeed worth, at least discussing a nerf for (I think it definitely is, but would prefer to leave that discussion to the tiering council), what the breaking element is (Jukain could be right, and bp teams have an inherent uncompetitiveness about them that warrants a ban), and last, how complex any nerf should be.
I'm the only one who seriously considers banning scolipede or espeon an option, but nobody's solidly refuted my logic, so I'm going to stick with it until someone does
I'll try. The problem with BP teams is how they function as a chain, not the contributions of any pokemon individually. Banning any of Scolipede, Sylveon, or Espeon
would pretty much kill effective BP, you're right. But no individual of those three are broken on their own and none are broken without the other two. Therefore, a ban on one is scapegoating just one of them to solve the problem of a 3 BP chain. However, limiting BP to two users per team means, effectively, one is banned from each team, solving the same problem without needlessly eliminating Cleaner Scolipede or something from the metagame. Hope that helps
This still doesn't change the fact that literally only one viable counter exists that always beats every variant of BP while being useful against anything else (Taunt Thundurus-I)
(no Haze Quagsire doesn't count because Unaware + Haze is ridiculously stupid)
How does Haze Quagsire not count? I've seen several Quags run haze, even experienced players run it with their stall teams. (See "teh fgts dat nevr die") Quagsire's 4th move is very expendable, as all it really needs it Scald/Toxic/Recover. Haze is good team support (are you saying team support is bad? So Wish and Heal Bell are impractical too?) and it is a great answer on stall teams for BP teams. So we have a stall check (HazeQuag) and a HO check (Volt-turn + strong priority) along with Thundurus-I. All viable stops.
The point is that this is an entire type of team we're talking about. You have wallbreakers on your HO teams to muscle through the bulky pokemon of the tier; back in gen 5 people would sometimes run Kingdra (UU) and even LUDICOLO of all things (NU) just to counter rain teams. Was it over-centralizing the metagame? Yes. But baton pass isn't.
Lastly, you're asking for one pokemon to counter an entire playstyle, and team. Most well made teams don't have a pokemon that counters all six of them.
I'll try. The problem with BP teams is how they function as a chain, not the contributions of any pokemon individually. Banning any of Scolipede, Sylveon, or Espeon
would pretty much kill effective BP, you're right. But no individual of those three are broken on their own and none are broken without the other two. Therefore, a ban on one is scapegoating just one of them to solve the problem of a 3 BP chain. However, limiting BP to two users per team means, effectively, one is banned from each team, solving the same problem without needlessly eliminating Cleaner Scolipede or something from the metagame. Hope that helps
It does help, but my incentive to keep bringing this up is that people are willing to go to pretty extreme lengths to defend scolipede, while considering the baton pass archetype trivial collateral damage. If it's a simple choice of whether a playing style or a Pokemon should be sacrificed for the good of the meta, I thought the obvious choice was a Pokemon, but this is obviously not a simple choice.
What I'd like to see happen is a serious investigation of what it is that makes bp broken. I've tried by testing bp teams limited by just about every reasonable ban, which is why I consider banning scolipede (at least from full bp teams) to be the the best choice for promoting a skill driven meta game, as trying to use agility instead of speed boost was what I considered to require the most skill. All the others either just opened bp up to more counters, which doesn't at all fix the inherent problem of being match up reliant, just lowers its effectiveness, or makes a strategy based on bp chains impossible.
I did this a while ago, but my view has slightly changed since then, so, in order of preference, here are the actions I support;
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who seriously considers banning scolipede or espeon an option, but nobody's solidly refuted my logic, so I'm going to stick with it until someone does, or the mods make a decision.
As to the wall lucario, I have no clue what that has to do with anything. We ban things by their best set, and lucario's best set was his offensive one. Similarly, scolipede and espeon's best sets are their bp sets (scolipede's cleaning set doesn't make a team broken, so no, and espeon is largely considered unviable outside of bp). Their other sets have nothing to do with their potential to be broken.
If scolipede or espeon (and the support they give) are deemed to the breaking element of bp, then they should be at least considered for a ban. Your first point isn't incorrect, so a complex ban would have warrant, but before we get to that, we have to convince all these theorymoners that bp is indeed worth, at least discussing a nerf for (I think it definitely is, but would prefer to leave that discussion to the tiering council), what the breaking element is (Jukain could be right, and bp teams have an inherent uncompetitiveness about them that warrants a ban), and last, how complex any nerf should be.
Okay, point proven. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I brought up defensive Lucario. I think the point I was trying to make was that Espeon and Scoliopede are both viable, and therefore, healthy for the metagame outside of their broken BP sets. But, as you said, we ban entire Pokemon, not sets, so that point doesn't really stand.
I think the biggest problem I have with banning/nerfing Scolio+Espeon is that we're essentially treating two Pokemon as a single one when it comes to banning. We do ban Pokemon for their viable sets (not their single most viable set, otherwise Genesect would probably still be OU), but how exactly do we approach this when 2 Pokemon's most viable sets aren't broken individually, but are combined? How do we ban a Scoliopede+Espeon core without stopping people from using Scoliopede and Espeon separately (aka without any intention of passing boosts from one to another), but still on the same team? This would require a ridiculously complex ban which would go along the lines of "You can't use Baton Pass to pass boosts directly or indirectly from Scoliopede to Espeon or vice-versa". And if we are to stop people from using Scoliopede and Espeon on the same team, wouldn't that hurt some perfectly reasonable teams? If you need a Baton Passing Bouncer and a Speed Passer on the same team for some reason, a BP+Speed Boost+Magic Bounce ban would affect you whether or not you were to use a full BP team. For me, this isn't just a problem of collateral damage, since said damage would be pretty small, it's a problem of creating a complex ban that will still cause collateral damage, which defeats the purpose of a complex ban entirely.
How does Haze Quagsire not count? I've seen several Quags run haze, even experienced players run it with their stall teams. (See "teh fgts dat nevr die") Quagsire's 4th move is very expendable, as all it really needs it Scald/Toxic/Recover. Haze is good team support (are you saying team support is bad? So Wish and Heal Bell are impractical too?) and it is a great answer on stall teams for BP teams. So we have a stall check (HazeQuag) and a HO check (Volt-turn + strong priority) along with Thundurus-I. All viable stops.
The point is that this is an entire type of team we're talking about. You have wallbreakers on your HO teams to muscle through the bulky pokemon of the tier; back in gen 5 people would sometimes run Kingdra (UU) and even LUDICOLO of all things (NU) just to counter rain teams. Was it over-centralizing the metagame? Yes. But baton pass isn't.
Lastly, you're asking for one pokemon to counter an entire playstyle, and team. Most well made teams don't have a pokemon that counters all six of them.
Haze Quagsire is bad because Quagsire has Unaware, so it has no reason to clear opposing stat boosts. Even if Quagsire faints, most good stall teams have Unaware Clefable as well, so Haze isn't even useful in the event that Quagsire faints. It's like running Magic Coat Espeon.
And BP needs to have one specific Pokemon to be able to counter it, because "well-built teams" that do not use a hard counter auto-lose to it.
This the point were we tell people that there are 3 sides to the argument and they have to clearly choose so they don't confuse the OU council first of all and their peers second:
1) Keep BP as is: The holder of this view (RIP english) truly believes that BP is not as overpowered, matchup reliant, cannot be countered without niche and useless pokemon/moves and is not statistically perfect as their opponents believe, and structures his posts to support these claims, especially the counter part with relevant calculations and realistic scenarios.
2) Nerf BP: BP was at one point a top but manageable playstyle, but due to Gen 6 changes (mechanics, mons, moves) it has become too much for OU to handle and there needs to be a nerf so the metagame can return to it's competitiveness. Baton pass itself isn't a troublesome move within and outside the context of this playstyle, and the nerf itself should be made so that BP can continue to function without breaking the meta. Bans specified to specific mons such as Speed Boost Scoli or Bouncy Espoen fall under here, as well as complex bans of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce, etc.
3) Ban BP (nerf it beyond repair): BP was never counterable to begin with, this gen just made it much worse. The team style is uncounterable for the most part, forces people to use niche/circumstantial checks and moves that are completely useless elsewhere, the team is matchup reliant and is as perfect as a team can possibly get. Calls to ban a number of BP users (2-4) fall under here as well as blanket bans on Baton Pass, etc.
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But before that can we please do without the "lulz BP is not a legit playstyle" crap. This isn't the purpose of the thread, Deo+5 was also a playstyle that came as close to perfection as anyone can get in BW2, it was nerfed beyond repair because it was "illegitimate", it was nerfed because no other playstyle came close to its efficiency and not using that template was to either challenge yourself or handicap it. It was a lazy way to win whenever you needed one. Lot's of players put time and effort to perfect both these teams, they shouldn't be dissed directly or indirectly.
I really appreciate you taking the time to define the arguments in this manner. However, I think Jukain has actually shown that 4 or 5 BPers is actually still decently viable (we can argue whether or not they are broken later, I think that's open for debate). I would say people advocating for a BP cap of 4 or 5 fall comfortably in the Nerf BP crowd. It is arguable whether a BP cap of 3 would destroy it or merely nerf BP, and I think we can comfortably say that a BP cap of 1 or 2 would outright destroy BP.
So as a clarification, people advocating for a BP cap of 4 or 5 are part of the Nerf BP crowd. It is debatable whether a BP cap of 3 would destroy BP or simply be a heavy nerf, while people argueing for a BP cap less then 3 is unarguably part of the Ban BP / Nerf BP Beyond Repair crowd.
Outside of that nitpick, a wonderful, wonderful framing of the argument at hand and I would highly recommend this (or something similar to this) be included into the OP of future discussion threads of balancing BP (including the almost inevitable BP suspect thread).
*edit*
As for myself, I am going to continue to argue for Keep BP As Is mostly because I feel like that is currently the side with the weakest arguments and I feel that they can be strengthened. I'm still working on exactly how I'm going to do that, but I want to make sure that BP absolutely needs to be nerfed before it is (besides, pro-nerf advocates already have plenty of strong arguments, I doubt there is much I could add to theirs :P).
We do ban Pokemon for their viable sets (not their single most viable set, otherwise Genesect would probably still be OU), but how exactly do we approach this when 2 Pokemon's most viable sets aren't broken individually, but are combined?
I think this is a very interesting way of formulating the issue and I think it bears repeating. As the game continues to grow we're likely to encounter this kind of synergy in more pokemon, so it'd be nice to reflect on this down the line. Is it feasible to state an scenario where you have to choose essentially either Espeon or Scolipede on your BP team? At least then you'd have two BP strategies instead of a single one and their counters would be different. Could be explored as a possibility (not sure if it's the most effective).
Kairyu_Gen1 : What do you think about the possibility of banning the +2 defensive boosts such as Amnesia or Iron Defense? It doesn't seem like a definitive answer to me, but if it really slows down the BP chain enough to be contained before it goes off, it can keep the BP strategy from being broken. I ask you directly because you seem to have a point of view in the matter akin to mine for most part.
I'll be first to admit--a TOTAL battling NOOB here. So I apologize.
Throughout the entire thread, people have claimed Haze Quagsire as an counter to BP. One pokemon doesn't make for an argument.
However, I'm curious--have people tried experimenting with OTHER Haze users? Scanning from the list of pokemon who learn it:
Crobat, Vaporean, Cofagrigus, Greninja, Zygarde, Blastoise, Politoed/Wrath, Tentacruel, Gengar, Dragonite, Xatu, Milotic, Dragalge.
I even saw an successful stall team that used Mantine with Haze successfully against a BP team until the BP player ragequitted.
These are pokemon who have OU potential. Obviously, not all of them can feasibly run Haze (Gengar? Greninja? ppft.), so it becomes a team-building problem of how to add Haze to a pokemon's moveset and how to make it work within a team. Blastoise could run Haze over Rapid Spin for tanky balance teams. Crobat can bypass substitutes and serve as a fast team support. Politoed typically runs Perish Song anyways, so Haze could be a slash for that.
However, I'm curious--have people tried experimenting with OTHER Haze users? Scanning from the list of pokemon who learn it:
Crobat, Vaporean, Cofagrigus, Greninja, Zygarde, Blastoise, Politoed/Wrath, Tentacruel, Gengar, Dragonite, Xatu, Milotic, Dragalge.
Most of those Pokemon are completely subpar in OU and should not be used, especially with Haze taking up one or their moveslots. Even the OU viable ones such as Gengar and Dragonite really can't afford running Haze. Haze is basically just deadweight outside of countering Baton Pass and even the viable Pokemon that learn it really can't afford to without putting themselves at a major disadvantage.
When people debate between the 2 popular proposed nerfs to BP, I think it's important to talk about the 2 different kind of BP teams these bans will, respectively, destroy. There's what I'll call "safepassing", basically using Scoliopede, Espeon, either Vaporeon or Sylveon, and 3 other Pokemeon to pass boosts around, and "longpassing", which is using 6 Pokemon to pass boosts in a team-length chain. The current popular BP team is a combination of these 2 strategies.
The BP cap would destroy longpassing while keeping safepassing alive and the Boost/Bounce bans would do the opposite. I think the ban we choose ultimately depends on which kind of BP teams we want to keep. I think people should ladder with both longpassing and safepassing teams to see which they deem to be the most uncompetetive compared to the other.
Remember, we probably won't kill BP in its entirety, but we will almost certainly have to kill one way to do it.
Most of those Pokemon are completely subpar in OU and should not be used, especially with Haze taking up one or their moveslots. They really don't count at all, lol.
This is essientially the worst argument I have continued to see. What do you mean subpar in OU? The point of OU is that it is OverUsed. If Baton Pass becomes OverUsed, then we should expect to see these Pokemon become very viable. And thus, they are very effective in OU.
Let the meta evolve. Baton Pass is a serious threat. Once more people start to take advantage of that, we will see Vaporeon, Mr. Mime, Zapdos, etc, all enter OU. When that happens, we will see more Stall teams willing to run Haze or Perish Song. Hyper Offensive teams will make sure to abuse extremely powerful wallbreakers like Pinsir, and Volt-Turn teams will start stacking priority and force early aggression.
Let the meta evolve, and if Baton Pass is still OverPowered when Haze usage becomes OverUsed then we ban it. But right now all I see is players unwilling to put Haze or other counters on their team. They say they aren't viable in OU, but the whole point behind OU is that they are OVERUSED, not your favorites!
I believe that the element most likely to be broken is Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Taunt and phasing are so general that standard BP isn't uncounterable. But BouncePass requires specific counters. I can't say much about exactly what is viable, and I have little to no competitive experience, so I'll just do some of the searching and math to find what we should be discussing. I'll assume that Pokémon below UU are not viable in OU and thus not relevant to the discussion of a potential BouncePass suspect test.
OK, so things that directly counter BouncePass are:
-things that can learn Haze
-Mold Breaker Roar/Whirlwind
-Unaware Pokémon
-Any Infiltrator that can OHKO an Espeon, a Xatu, and a Mega Absol
-Imprison + Baton Pass
-Perish Song (bypasses Bounce and gets Passed)
So, Pokémon that could conceivably counter BouncePass:
Current OU/UU Pokémon learning Haze
Crobat
Vaporeon
Quagsire
Honchkrow
Blastoise
Tentacruel
Gengar
Dragonite
Xatu (neither OU nor UU, but relevant because it's one of the BouncePass users; c)
Chandelure
Greninja
Zygarde
Dragalge
Current OU/UU Pokémon with Mold Breaker Roar/Whirlwind
Mega Gyarados
Haxorus
Hawlucha (both BL)
Current OU/UU Pokémon with Unaware
Clefable
Quagsire (not a threat unless it has Haze)
Infiltrator Pokémon that can OHKO the bulkiest possible Xatu Espeon (252/252+ base 95/60 (Special) Defense, base 65 HP)
Specs Chandelure, and only if the Xatu has no Sp. D. boosts. Espeon also dies to Chandelure's Specs Shadow Ball, but like Xatu, it survives if it's got Sp. D. boosts. If you're Passing stuff, boost your Defenses.
OU/UU Pokémon with Imprison/BP
The only Pokémon with this combo is Musharna, who is non-viable.
Current OU/UU Pokémon with Perish Song
Celebi
Absol (Only Mega Absol is really usable, I believe)
Gengar
Azumarill
Honchkrow
OU/UU BouncePass Counters
Crobat
Vaporeon
Quagsire
Honchkrow
Blastoise
Tentacruel
Gengar
Dragonite
Xatu (neither OU nor UU, but relevant because it's one of the BouncePass users I already have the number)
Chandelure
Greninja
Zygarde
Dragalge
Clefable
Mega Gyarados
Haxorus
Hawlucha
Celebi
Absol
Azumarill
Gengar
Honchkrow
So, there are 11 OU Pokémon, 2 BL Pokémon and 8 UU Pokémon, plus Xatu, that could conceivably counter and will at a minimum check BouncePass.
If all these Pokémon's odds of being on an OU team are independent (not true, but it's the best math I can do quickly), then 58.54% of teams have none of them, meaning that 41.46% of teams have one of these Pokémon species on them. However, these Pokémon aren't always running their sets that counter BouncePass.
So, I did a lot of looking at statistics and multiplication of percentages (presumed independence, but I can't do anything better than that) and got that 8.9355% of OU teams above 1760 contain Pokémon running sets capable of checking BouncePass. Math spoiled, but if you read only one thing in this behemoth of a post, read that line there.
2.64% of 0.72% of OU Pokémon are Crobat that use Haze = .0019% of OU Pokémon
5.21% of 3.25% of OU Pokémon are Vaporeon that use Haze = .1693% of OU Pokémon
33.41% of of 3.33% of OU Pokémon are Haze Quagsire = 1.1125% of OU Pokémon
Haze Honchkrow is not noted in the OU Movesets document, so I presume it's rarer than even, say, Haze Crobat, so it's irrelevant.
Haze Blastoise not noted
10.42% of 2.13% of OU Pokémon are Haze Tentacruel = .2219% of OU Pokémon
2.12% of 5.24% of OU Pokémon are Haze Gengar = .1111% of OU Pokémon
Haze Dragonite not noted
2.69% of 0.25% of OU Pokémon are Haze Xatu =.0067% of OU Pokémon
14.02% of 25.91% of 90.94% of 0.99% of OU Pokémon are Choice Specs Shadow Ball Infiltrator Chandelure = .0327% of OU Pokémon
Haze Chandelure not noted
Haze Greninja not noted
Haze Zygarde not noted
Haze Dragalge not noted
3.29% of 67.04% of 6.88% of Pokémon are Roar Gyaradosite Gyarados = .1517% of OU Pokémon
Roar Haxorus not noted
Whirlwind Hawlucha not noted
60.17% of 7.82% of Pokémon are Unaware Clefable = 7.053% of OU Pokémon
13.52% of 1.71% of Pokémon are Perish Song Celebi = 0.2312
Perish Song Absol not noted
Perish Song Azumarill not noted
Perish Song Gengar not noted
Perish Song Honchkrow not noted
91.0645% of OU teams run none of these.
So 8.9355% of OU teams above 1760 run a Pokémon with a set capable of checking BouncePass.
Hope all this helps you figure stuff out.
EDIT: Changed my giant bold text. It's teams, not Pokémon. Lost track of that in all the math.
EDIT: Removed non-Haze Unaware Quagsire, added Perish Song (Celebi only common user). Percentage has changed.
EDIT: There is no such thing as a BouncePass Xatu. Got it. References have been removed.
NOTE: Yes, there are offensive checks. Lots of them. However, I lack the experience to say exactly what they are, which sets check BouncePass, and how commonly these checks win. So more than 9% of teams at the 1760+ level will beat BouncePass; however, the only offensive check/counter I mentioned is Chandelure, as it ignores Substitutes entirely.
Most of those Pokemon are completely subpar in OU and should not be used, especially with Haze taking up one or their moveslots. Even the OU viable ones such as Gengar and Dragonite really can't afford running Haze. Haze is basically just deadweight outside of countering Baton Pass and even the viable Pokemon that learn it really can't afford to without putting themselves at a major disadvantage.
To further add to that the only pokemon that can run haze effective are rare and not that good in OU anyway. Qwilfish, Vaporeon, Weezing, Cofagrigus and Milotic are the most viable haze users that actually use haze. That is saying something when the most viable haze users are just barely usable in OU. While haze is the best option against baton pass, it's distribution makes it a wasted team slot most of the time.
Well... no. Any decently built team has a fair chance against Baton Pass teams, without having to run a specific counter. Just like Offense can break through Stall without using Gothitelle, Offense can break through defensive Baton Pass chains without having to resort to niche moves like Haze or Perish Song.
Also, if you are going to call something broken, the burden of the evidence is on you. It looks like people in this thread are being forced to convince heavily biased players (sorry but it's pretty obvious for some people) that want nothing but to have Baton Pass banned that it's not broken. How about you show me that Baton Pass teams ARE broken without oneliners like "it creates an auto-win situation against the majority of the metagame" and not even bothering to back it up whatsoever?
It does help, but my incentive to keep bringing this up is that people are willing to go to pretty extreme lengths to defend scolipede, while considering the baton pass archetype trivial collateral damage. If it's a simple choice of whether a playing style or a Pokemon should be sacrificed for the good of the meta, I thought the obvious choice was a Pokemon, but this is obviously not a simple choice.
What I'd like to see happen is a serious investigation of what it is that makes bp broken. I've tried by testing bp teams limited by just about every reasonable ban, which is why I consider banning scolipede (at least from full bp teams) to be the the best choice for promoting a skill driven meta game, as trying to use agility instead of speed boost was what I considered to require the most skill. All the others either just opened bp up to more counters, which doesn't at all fix the inherent problem of being match up reliant, just lowers its effectiveness, or makes a strategy based on bp chains impossible.
I did this a while ago, but my view has slightly changed since then, so, in order of preference, here are the actions I support;
...But we've told you what makes BP "Broken" it's the Synergy of the whole team.
Baton Pass Espeon or Scolipede on their own or even together are not broken. Combine them with Sylveon and the other Team mates and they become a synergy that makes sense. The individual pokemon are not broken the combination is. It's that simple. We've banned a grand total of 3 pokemon this generation. If we keep banning pokemon, we'll somehow end up with Just Rotom-W, Talonflame, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Mega-Mawile, and Scizor. (THIS IS A JOKE AND AN EXAGGERATION AND A COMMENTARY ALL IN ONE *HINT HINT*)
Banning the Pokemon is not what we should be doing, targeting the strategy is what we need to do (If we have to, I'm still on the side of "do nothing")
This is why the complex ban of a Baton Pass Clause should be in effect if we have to, limit the amount of Baton Pass users. I'm suggesting 3-4 pokemon only can have Baton Pass on the team.
One thing I dislike about facing Baton Pass teams that I don't think many people have brought up is the quality of prediction required to really beat them. That might read a little odd, so I'll explain what I mean.
While playing against people of an unknown capability, which is what is happening most of the time you're playing. In general, most matches will start off with fairly 'safe' plays, with ballsy game determining predictions taking place after quite a few turns. With Baton Pass, if your team is anywhere between on even ground or undermatched, you've got the first three turns to make a correct prediction or you will likely lose. Even a bad lead can determine this, as BP teams don't have to lead with Scolipede. What this means if you have to make incredibly important predictions against a person for who you have no idea how they play. This essentially takes away the skill element of prediction.
