Serious Vegetarianism/Speciesism

[Celever]

As some of you may know, I am a vegetarian, and have been for almost 2 years (this was by choice). As I think one of the only vegetarians on smogon I was interested to see who else was vegetarian here and also to see justification people have for eating meat other than the regular "bc itz nice" I get irl and on irc.

Recently I had to do an essay on the usage of animals in sport for my Philosophy and Ethics teacher in school, and I would like to quote a part of said essay which also applies to vegetarianism is a reason of why you might want to be:

Reincarnation

"One belief I would like to bring up is reincarnation, and that humans are actually reborn as another species of animal. I don’t particularly like reincarnation as it places humans above other species of animals, but it brings up a good point. What if the cow you just ate was your Grandmother?"

Another thing (I wrote the latter part of the essay at school, so I don't have a copy of that part here) is karma. Where good deeds bring happiness to yourself and bad deeds bring misery to yourself. If we are to believe in reincarnation, the same should apply to animals, right?

You may see in the title "Speciesism" is there. What is speciesism? Well, as you might be able to guess, it is a type of discrimination, such as racism or sexism, but towards different species. So, for example, one might say "Men are superior to women", or "White people are superior to black", and on the same note, they may say "Humans are superior to Squirrels". If you are a speciesist, you believe that a certain species is superior to another. I am 100% against Speciesism, just as I am against all forms of discrimination such as sexism and racism. Speciesism isn't a widely known belief, but many people are speciesist without even knowing it! For example, have you ever watched any TV series about animals in your life? Somewhere in it there is no doubt some remark about humans being superior to whatever animals it is, even if it is just a snide comment. This does annoy me, so I'm interested to hear smogon's thoughts on the matter.

Thank you, and enjoy!

 

[Myzozoa]

I've been a vegetarian for 10 years. I am a vegetarian because it is in my rational self-interest to be a vegetarian.

 

[billymills]

I am strongly against speciesism and take offense to your interpretation of reincarnation. Plants are just as important a species as any animal. Your assertation that my grandmother could merely be a cow is mammal-centric at best. She could end up a perfectly fine taraxacum.

 

[frogoholic101]

Racism and sexism have the potential to hurt people, either emotionally, or part as part of some discrimination that deny them jobs or representation. I find your conflation of racism/sexism and speciesism offensive.

How exactly is 'specisism' offensive in the slightest? I'm not sure how you measure superiority but humans are objectively smarter than all other animals on this planet. I'm not seeing how speciesism isn't true, and how it is offensive. Why does that squirrel in your example care what the human thinks, and what bearing on its life does that have?

 

[vonFiedler]

Vegetarians completely remove themselves from the animal rights equation by presenting meat industries a "no-win scenario". By focusing on whether animals live or die and not on the quality of their lives, we have seen the quality of life for animals slip for the past several decades. Vegetarianism is textbook self-righteousness. I heavily moderate my meat consumption. I buy locally from trusted ranchers I know on a first name basis. I protest for better treatment of animals, which is difficult because when they look at me they want to write me off as just another nutjob like you. Put that in your high school essay, you hippy.

 

[Brap]

Been a vegetarian since I was 8. Was my own free-choice that I made and I'm the only non-meat-eater in a house of 6.

At first I wasn't a proper vegetarian. I still ate fish and jelly sweets. But over time (can't pinpoint the exact age I was) I cut them out and I've been a full-blown vegetarian for some time now.

It is my own choice not to eat meat and I would never say that 'eating meat is wrong'.

 

[mattj]

I can understand why a person might choose to not eat meat themselves, but how mighr someone argue that someone else ought to not eat meat? Never seen an argument that went beyond "I personally, morally disagree with it".

 

[Crux]

I am a vegetarian and have been for about 2 and a half years. I always found the most compelling arguments to be those that dealt with the large cost to the non-wealthy rather than those that merely asserted animal rights.

 

[Bass]

I can understand why a person might choose to not eat meat themselves, but how mighr someone argue that someone else ought to not eat meat? Never seen an argument that went beyond "I personally, morally disagree with it".

1) It leads to a healthier diet
2) It reduces your cost of living (what Crux said).

Disclosure: I am not a vegetarian.

 

[TheValkyries]

As some of you may know, I am a vegetarian, and have been for almost 2 years (this was by choice).

Seriously though, who the FUCK is a vegetarian not by choice. LOL.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I've been a vegetarian for 12 years. I am just personally disgusted by the thought of eating dead animals that had guts, diseases, and took shits. I'm also an animal rights activist (though I think PETA gives us a bad name). Although I never really mention it unless someone offers me meat.

I can understand why a person might choose to not eat meat themselves, but how mighr someone argue that someone else ought to not eat meat? Never seen an argument that went beyond "I personally, morally disagree with it".

Isn't that an argument for just about everything. The real argument is "How are we fundamentally different from other animals." Also, I think vegetarianism shows positive qualities in people such as self control, appreciation for life, and independent thought.

 

[Age of Kings]

Vegetarians completely remove themselves from the animal rights equation by presenting meat industries a "no-win scenario". By focusing on whether animals live or die and not on the quality of their lives, we have seen the quality of life for animals slip for the past several decades. Vegetarianism is textbook self-righteousness. I heavily moderate my meat consumption. I buy locally from trusted ranchers I know on a first name basis. I protest for better treatment of animals, which is difficult because when they look at me they want to write me off as just another nutjob like you. Put that in your high school essay, you hippy.

I completely agree with this post, but I want to go one step further: vegetarianism is not compassionate to animals. Learn where your fucking food comes from.

(tl;dr probably getting into more hippie territory)

Irresponsible pesticide use for plants has directly destroyed fragile ecosystems around the world; in the United States, several species of birds of prey are still suffering from the effects of DDT which were banned 40 years ago due to lowered fertility rates and thinned egg shells. Bees are suffering from a worldwide population crisis due to colony collapse disorder, believed to be caused by pesticides. Bees dying (animals dying en masse btw) = plants not getting pollinated = no one gets fed.

Small-scale agriculture and commercial agriculture (read: separate from Brazilian cattle ranches) are among the leading causes of deforestation worldwide; rainforests in Indonesia are disappearing for palm oil and soy plantations, while coffee has adverse effects in Africa and Central America. I hope I don't have to spell out how deforestation isn't that nice to animals. Not even going to get into issues of biodiversity from mass production or pollution resulting from shipping oranges and strawberries from the opposite hemisphere because people absolutely can't go without them in the winter and nobody cares about the word "in-season" anymore.

Yeah, your fucking vegan gluten-free diet is so compassionate to animals and us meateaters are such pieces of shit, right? I am a meateater and I give a shit about animal welfare, yet being self-righteous about how much better vegetarians supposedly are pisses me off. But meat eating is natural for humans no matter how much you argue that we don't need it, taking life to sustain life is a fact of nature. Ensuring the quality of life for the animals involved, however, is of utmost importance.

 

[Myzozoa]

That has nothing to do with vegetarianism, it applies to everyone. It is just as problematic to purchase products manufactured with damaging pesticides/on deforested land if you eat meat as if you are a vegetarian. The problem of pesticides has no necessary relationship to the moral validity of vegetarianism. I don't really know who your rant is directed at, but I don't see anyone hating on meat eaters itt. You act like it's vegetarianism's fault that people don't buy local or organic or pro-environment products.

 

[Age of Kings]

That has nothing to do with vegetarianism, it applies to everyone. It is just as problematic to purchase products manufactured with damaging pesticides if you eat meat as if you are a vegetarian. The problem of pesticides has no necessary relationship to the moral validity of vegetarianism. I don't really know who your rant is directed at, but I don't see anyone hating on meat eaters itt. You act like it's vegetarianism's fault that people don't by local or organic or pro-environment products.

It's directed at statements like

I think vegetarianism shows positive qualities in people such as self control, appreciation for life, and independent thought.

and pretty much to dispell the notion that vegetarianism has some sort of inherent moral superiority because it doesn't kill sentient beings directly. I admit that it wasn't quite found in this thread, but it's not an uncommon sentiment.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I used to be vegetarian for a while but that was because my vet courses made me sick of the sight of meat. It went so bad that I wanted to throw up when I see meat.

After 2 years of quitting the vet course and got back to Hong Kong my homeland, I got over it.

I think there are quite a lot of advantages of being vegetarian (for a while. Humans still need meat intake once in a while), and I consider of having more vegetarian meals again. (Just that it's difficult to find any vegetarian restaurant here)
I felt less tired and more healthy for starters, and I personally find how people raise/ farm animals feel cruel to me.
I'm not saying that eating animals alone was cruel at all. Eating animals is part of the food chain and I don't oppose it.
The problem is, it's probably difficult for me to buy any meat that's raised humanely. (As in, not squashed into a small space for all their lives)
There's absolutely nothing wrong if you buy meat from local/ land race farms.

Humans are not herbivores and you still need meat intake once in a while.
If you are arguing about health, you should be arguing on how REDUCING meat intake is beneficial. Not completely cutting meat intake. Whoever who argues that humans are not carnivores and don't need to eat meat to survive is completely ignoring that omnivores need meat intake.

 

[Myzozoa]

Whats going to happen to me if I don't eat meat?

I'm not really interested in stories about 'you are x therefore you need y,' but is it impossible to be a vegetarian and to be healthy?

Tell me why I can't acquire a certain necessary nutrient without eating meat.

No amount of baseless (uncited and vague) assertions that vegetarianism is unhealthy will actually make it unhealthy.


The strawmanning is real as fuck. so far every single argument presented in this thread against vegetarianism has either had no relationship to vegetarianism, as in the case of deforestation and "organic/local/sourcing" arguments presented by von fiedler and age of kings, or has been an invocation of some uncited and and vague claim about health that I have no reason to buy into as in the case of 'omnivores need meat'.

The posters in this thread look doubly like 'defensive carnivores' because no vegetarian has even come here to tell you that eating meat is ethically wrong, so just calm down. Vegetarianism is chill, if you source your meat ethically thats chill too.

"Scientific endeavors in the area of vegetarianism have shifted from concerns about nutritional adequacy to investigating health benefits and disease prevention."

smgdh

 

[jumpluff]

1) It leads to a healthier diet
2) It reduces your cost of living (what Crux said).

Disclosure: I am not a vegetarian.

What Crux is actually referring to is the argument that meat-eating is unethical because it is unsustainable. Meat has to be fed while it lives as an animal, and they consume a lot of grains that other humans could eat in a world with dramatic global wealth disparity and famine, in an amount that is suggested to be unreasonable comparing the yield of an animal bred and raised for slaughter to the human gain of the food it has consumed.

I think there are many valid reasons to be a vegetarian. I am not one, although I am strongly in favour of protecting animals from abuse and exploitation and find the meat industry abhorrent (here, von makes a very good point). I find people who insist vegetarianism is the only ethical choice very misguided. It is a privilege to be able to pick and choose what you eat and have a balanced diet. It is a privilege to be well enough to reject eating meat (I practically live off iron supplements as it is; nonetheless, I believe most people in the West could prolly cut down on the steaks). It is a privilege to assume everyone is in the position you are to make the choices you make.

Nevertheless, I find the discourse around vegetarianism to be heavily misframed and the really sensible reasons to choose such a lifestyle often put aside in favour of more nebulous ones. It seems to me that live and let live is appropriate here on an individual level but there are broader issues with meat consumption at present that require a more communal approach. There are a lot of myths around meat-eating too that glorify and decontextualise present meat consumption.

edit: I should clarify that I am not contradicting myzo but agreeing with him on the health point; I am unwell and sensible vegetarians who are able to manage their diets appropriately will know important vitamins are abundant in other sources, from nuts to vegetables.

BenTheDemon how can you be an animal rights activist if you don't talk about it

Also I will address speciesism when I come home got a lecture and it's 4:30 amazing

 

[Bass]

What Crux is actually referring to is the argument that meat-eating is unethical because it is unsustainable. Meat has to be fed while it lives as an animal, and they consume a lot of grains that other humans could eat in a world with dramatic global wealth disparity and famine, in an amount that is suggested to be unreasonable comparing the yield of an animal bred and raised for slaughter to the human gain of the food it has consumed.

Not going to disagree with you here, but I think my point remains valid regardless. Meat is relatively expensive, so it is only natural for people on lower income to eat less meat if any at all. This is why I misinterpreted Crux's post.

 

[jumpluff]

Not going to disagree with you here, but I think my point remains valid regardless. Meat is relatively expensive, so it is only natural for people on lower income to eat less meat if any at all. This is why I misinterpreted Crux's post.

Unfortunately fresh produce is quite expensive too. :( But, yes, you are quite right.

 

[cookie]

1) It leads to a healthier diet

Here's an interesting point that is often ignored in this argument: vegetarian diets are in general more reliant on starchy food for calorie intake, which has the nasty side-effect of sending your blood glucose levels all over the place if you eat refined versions of them. Meat and fat release their energy more slowly.

It's just as easy (if not more so) to have an unhealthy diet without meat than with one. Firstly, most of the crap that people fill their faces with to make their bodies unhealthy are sugar and fat - the former is perfectly vegetarian and the latter is mostly in the form of vegetable oil/butter. Going vegetarian does fuck all to remove these from your diet. What's unhealthy about a meat diet is a smaller subset of processed meats - bacon, sausages. But then again processed anything is packed with sugar, salt and fat so it's unfair to tar the entire food group with the same brush.

Secondly: meat fills you up more than carbs (due to something about insulin levels, look it up I can't really remember). Vegetables are filling as well, but they are not as satisfying or delicious (let's not bullshit ourselves here). In a vegetarian diet it's easier to eat too many calories because of this, if you are not eating a balanced diet in the first place.

2) It reduces your cost of living (what Crux said).

this and reducing environmental impact are good reasons

 

[TheValkyries]

It's just as easy (if not more so) to have an unhealthy diet without meat than with one.

As a vegetarian, I can confirm the validity of this assertion. I am rather chubs.

REAL TALK: I'd argue that paying attention to your diet in any capacity will net you a healthier result. Going vegetarian is one easy way to force that, but it does not preclude your ability to eat unhealthily.

 

[Bass]

Here's an interesting point that is often ignored in this argument: vegetarian diets are in general more reliant on starchy food for calorie intake, which has the nasty side-effect of sending your blood glucose levels all over the place if you eat refined versions of them. Meat and fat release their energy more slowly.

It's just as easy (if not more so) to have an unhealthy diet without meat than with one. Firstly, most of the crap that people fill their faces with to make their bodies unhealthy are sugar and fat - the former is perfectly vegetarian and the latter is mostly in the form of vegetable oil/butter. Going vegetarian does fuck all to remove these from your diet. What's unhealthy about a meat diet is a smaller subset of processed meats - bacon, sausages. But then again processed anything is packed with sugar, salt and fat so it's unfair to tar the entire food group with the same brush.

Secondly: meat fills you up more than carbs (due to something about insulin levels, look it up I can't really remember). Vegetables are filling as well, but they are not as satisfying or delicious (let's not bullshit ourselves here). In a vegetarian diet it's easier to eat too many calories because of this, if you are not eating a balanced diet in the first place.

Fair enough, perhaps I should have rephrased my original assertion in that strictly speaking, vegetarians are not necessarily healthier individuals than non-vegetarians. I am not sure if I agree entirely with your primary argument as to whether vegetarians require higher caloric intake to feel satiated, but I won't comment on it as I am neither a nutritionist nor a vegetarian that can speak from experience. However it would still be correct to say that a vegetarian diet does provide several health benefits such as reducing cholesterol and saturated fat intake, and generally increasing dietary fiber intake.

 

[mattj]

The real argument is "How are we fundamentally different from other animals."

For the most part we're not. If its cool for bears to eat meat, its cool for me to eat meat.

 

[EyeDentist]

Alright, here it comes.

I honestly care very little about the lives of animals.

Before you tear me a new one, let me clarify that I do care about abused animals. Beaten dogs, malnourished cows, and even those disgusting, horrifying spiders. I see it as an issue, but perhaps not one that I should be concerned with.

It might be odd to see someone oppose what is considered a "valence issue", but I'm that guy. Go ahead and convince me! I feel that this problem is entirely pathos, which makes me pretty resistant to it.

 

[billymills]

Nah, I don't particularly care about animals either. A good argument for vegetarianism is what Cookie and Age of Kings have highlighted above.