TheManlyLadybug
Banned deucer.
I know, I said in my post that if QC gives permission, a person can do more than the limit and that some of TRC's analyses were in the GP stage.
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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
Yeah, go for it.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Okay, so I battled with Hitmontop a great deal. I even managed to ladder higher in Pokemon Showdown! with it! Here are a couple replays of Hitmontop pulling off some work in OU: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112727002 and http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112678446 Sadly, no one used hazards in any of the battles I played, so I guess I'll just keep looking for someone that does. I'll edit this post when I do.
Note: I have found no video of Hitmontop performing well.
Note: I have found no video of Hitmontop performing well.
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Basically it look like all Hitmontop really did was Sucker Punch and Intimidate stuff... IMO, its job could have been done probably equally as well if not better by Pokmeon such as Mega Mawile and Bisharp.
Also why are you running Rapid Spin support and Espeon on the same team, considering Espeon's only niche outside of Baton Pass is preventing hazards?
But anyways I still see Hitmontop seriously outclassed. But I guess that's just my two cents on this topic idk.
If CyclicCompound doesn't want the analysis or doesn't respond in 48 hours, Kyurem is up for grabs.
If I can, I'd like to "reserve it" if it does become avialable.
Go ahead and take it, my hands are quite full at the moment. Feel free to use the old thread as a resource.
Isn't it rejected? Or can I do I new one with new QC stamps? I'm new to this sry
Thanks, I'll start working on it soon.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Alright, so I tried to get a good replay of Hitmontop and I was thoroughly disappointed. I tried him in UU and he seemed good enough for OU. Not the case. Well, thank you for considering it.
TheManlyLadybug
Banned deucer.
Landorus-T is done.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-t.3502810/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-t.3502810/
TheManlyLadybug
Banned deucer.
Shuckle is done.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shuckle.3504797/
I agree with rejecting Hitmontop, as well as a lot of other people and even the original poster himself. Add it to the List of Rejected Pokemon.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shuckle.3504797/
I agree with rejecting Hitmontop, as well as a lot of other people and even the original poster himself. Add it to the List of Rejected Pokemon.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Alright, now I have looked through the rejected list and I tried to find a pokemon that could be useful in OU. Then I came across Arcanine. A physically defensive one with Intimidate, I might add. Now, I have thought of several reasons why it's bad in OU. First, it's weak to the common Edge-Quake combo. Yes, I do realize that this looks bad for a wall, but bear with me. First, I will present a replay using Arcanine. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113782593 - I was told that Arcanine was out-classed by Landorus-T power-wise, speed-wise, and stat-wise. Alright, that's a very valid argument. For one, Arcanine doesn't have a blistering 4x ice type weakness. Another thing Landorus-T doesn't have is access to Will-O-Wisp, which is probably defensive Arcanine's greatest asset, being able to burn pokemon that would otherwise be able to take it out with a couple Earthquakes/Stone Edges. With pokemon around like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Mega-Mawile and Bisharp (just a few examples), Arcanine can find an opportunity to switch in and burn anything that they bring out to counter it. For example, Garchomp can normally stop Arcanine from doing much, but after being burned, it can barely even 3HKO Arcanine unless it holds a Life Orb or a Choice Band. Just to put them out there: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113809311 and http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113817269 - I can see how Landorus-T can be more useful, but I think that's team dependent. Landorus-T has access to Stealth Rocks, U-turn, and a ridiculous attack stat while Arcanine focuses more on crippling the opponent's pokemon. One HUGE detail I forgot to point out is that Arcanine has reliable recovery in Morning Sun. This is a really big turning point, as Landorus-T has no reliable recovery whatsoever. Now Arcanine's typing would hinder it from doing it's job at first, due to a Stealth Rock weakness, but with the buff given to Defog, things got a bit easier for the blazing pooch. Arcanine can also finish off opponents with a +2 priority Extreme Speed, almost guaranteeing that Arcanine retains no further damage from the opposing pokemon before dying to burn damage. I have tried a couple sets for a physically defensive Arcanine, all with the same spread of 252 HP, 252 Def and 4 Atk or 4 SpD. One consisted of Substitute, Morning Sun, Extreme Speed, and Will-O-Wisp. Substitute is mainly for scouting out your opponents attacks and if they switch into a physical attacker, you can burn them, then switch out to something that can handle it. Rock Blast will bypass the substitute, so be wary of that. Some replays of Sub-Canine: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113832032 and http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113836255 - I hope this can suffice enough to reconsider Arcanine. Really, I just want to make sure we don't miss out on any potentially great pokemon. Unlike the earlier tried Hitmontop and Machamp, I can easily do well with Arcanine in OU. I hope you can take it into consideration. Thank you!
Edit: Just a few calculations to show its usefulness (most special attackers will threaten Arcanine, so I will show physical attacking variants on common OU pokemon:
+3 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword (before being burned and at +4) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 249-293 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch (before a Guts boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch (after a Guts boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 118-141 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) (Arcanine will usually out-speed and burn the Bisharp, putting it at -1 after Defiant boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 122-146 (31.7 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall (after a Dragon Dance) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Arcanine can then burn it)
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough (after 2 Swords Dances and a burn) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch (after 2 Swords Dances and a burn) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 205-242 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is if you even attack using the Arcanine)
+1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower (after a Swords Dance) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 199-235 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And another replay if you haven't had enough: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113975833
Alright, so this may be obvious, but Arcanine performs even better in the sun as it is able to recovery completely with Morning Sun, can inflict more damage with Flare Blitz, and tank water type attacks a lot easier. Also, Arcanine appreciates teammates that can take the popular Edge-Quake combination. I used Skarmory in that slot. Pokemon that can change the weather, more specifically Tyranitar, keep Arcanine stuck and forced to switch out. This is why Close Combat is a viable option on Arcanine, first burning Tyranitar, then being able to 2HKO a physically defensive Tyranitar, even with minimal to no attack investment.
If there are other calculations you want to see for this guy, then please tell me.
Edit: Just a few calculations to show its usefulness (most special attackers will threaten Arcanine, so I will show physical attacking variants on common OU pokemon:
+3 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword (before being burned and at +4) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 249-293 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch (before a Guts boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch (after a Guts boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 118-141 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) (Arcanine will usually out-speed and burn the Bisharp, putting it at -1 after Defiant boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 122-146 (31.7 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall (after a Dragon Dance) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Arcanine can then burn it)
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough (after 2 Swords Dances and a burn) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch (after 2 Swords Dances and a burn) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 205-242 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is if you even attack using the Arcanine)
+1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower (after a Swords Dance) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 199-235 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And another replay if you haven't had enough: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113975833
Alright, so this may be obvious, but Arcanine performs even better in the sun as it is able to recovery completely with Morning Sun, can inflict more damage with Flare Blitz, and tank water type attacks a lot easier. Also, Arcanine appreciates teammates that can take the popular Edge-Quake combination. I used Skarmory in that slot. Pokemon that can change the weather, more specifically Tyranitar, keep Arcanine stuck and forced to switch out. This is why Close Combat is a viable option on Arcanine, first burning Tyranitar, then being able to 2HKO a physically defensive Tyranitar, even with minimal to no attack investment.
If there are other calculations you want to see for this guy, then please tell me.
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I agree that Archanine should get an analysis. It does have the kind of stats that an OU pokemon would have and access to a variety of useful moves and abilities including Flare Blitz, Morning Sun, E-Speed, Will-O-Wisp, Flash Fire and, while now less useful due to the omnipresent Bisharp, Intimidate. This turns Archanine into a good physical wall, but it isn't completely peachy for it as it is outclassed as a physically-offensive Fire-type (in OU at least) by Entei and Flareon who either have access to better physical Fire-type moves (Entei's Sacred Fire) or and offensive ability that causes it to hit much harder with their Fire-type STAB move (Flareon's Guts-boosted Flare Blitz - it finally gets it). It isn't outclassed offensively be either in UU due to the nature of the metagame, but sadly it is in OU. I'd let HypnoEmpire write this as he gave a well-planned, convincing argument for its use - much better than mine which was merely meant to be an extention to his point.
Also, what is the status on the aformentioned Flareon as it is now a viable physical sweeper/wallbreaker due to access to the combination of Guts and Flare Blitz. It has good Attack and Special Defense stats and a decent Special Attack stat which, although using is as a special attacker isn't recommended, lets Flareon run special coverage moves such as HP Grass effectively given enough investment. However, Flareon's main downfall is its low speed stat which is pretty bad unboosted. This means that Flareon is best off running a Flame Charge set or working in a Tailwind or Trick Room team. Its power after a Guts boost is absolutely incredible, but it lacks longevity as the recoil+bad poison damage will begin to rack up, meaning that on Tailwind and Trick Room teams it functions best as a hit-and-run attacker due to requiring to hold a Toxic Orb to hit hard. I have deduced that the best sets are 'Flame Charge' and 'Tailwind/Trick Room Abuse'. The former is good for its ability to force switches against numerous Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Blissey, Forretress and non-mega Venusaur, among others, and use the opertunity to set up on them and proceed to set up one or more boosts on them (unless they stay in to fullfill an objective) - I'd imagine that, assuming they stay in to Wish, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, set up entry hazards, get of some damage using one of their coverage moves or suicide and are at full health, you would successfully get up one against Venusaur wheras you would get up two against Forretress (due to Sturdy) and Ferrothorn (cause its a complete boss like that) and 1, 2 or 3 against Blissey - depending on you move choice (Jolly calcs: ()
Jolly Calcs
- ((252 Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 222-262 (34 - 40.1%)) + (252 Atk Guts Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 534-628 (81.9 - 96.3%) or 252 Atk Guts Flareon Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 414-488 (63.4 - 74.8%)) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 712-838 (109.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 304-360 (86.3 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
- 252 Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Ferrothorn: 316-376 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 586-690 (89.8 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Ferrothorn: 352-420 (100 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Thank you so much for supporting Arcanine, but sadly, I think Flareon is out-classed by Conkeldurr as a Guts user and Infernape as a physical fire type. I only think Arcanine has a chance at OU is its ridiculous bulk after getting off an intimidate and threatening to burn the opposing pokemon. Bisharp isn't a big deal if you saw my damage calculation above, since it is almost useless after a burn, even at +1. Entei is a very strong fire type, but even Entei is out-classed by Infernape (at least I think it is, please correct me if I'm wrong). Again, thank you so much for the support! :D
AccidentalGreed said I can't just say Arcanine fucking sucks and leave it at that.
Okay so watching those replays, it seemed like the only real competition for an opponent was the swag116 player, who still did rather horrid (if he just used Flamethrower your Chansey would've been toast... though lolEarthquake). I guess we'll start from the bottom and end up here.
Remember Edgequake? Well, Smack Down + Earthquake threatens two common Defog users (Zapdos and Skarmory in particular) to let it safely lay Stealth Rock and keep it on the field. Furthermore, you can Smack Down threats such as Lati@s or Mandibuzz and take advantage of the lost Levitate ability (or in Mandibuzz's case the lack of Flying-typing). While Landorus-T lacks Will-O-Wisp, it has something that a lot of teams realistically want - it has Stealth Rock, it has a means of scaring Defog users as well as Excadrill, and it has an offensive presence.
So a few things. One, Arcanine (the set you presented) is completely walled by Heatran. It is a living invitation for Heatran to come in. It also can allow other Pokemon such as Charizard X and even Charizard Y to come in and scare Arcanine a bit. Though Zard Y takes a bit from STAB Flare Blitz, it can Roost off the damage and force a draw. Though, Mega Charizard X gets a free Dragon Dance or can just sit its ass there and laugh at everything Arcanine tries to throw at it.
Next, it is a large double-edged sword against some of the Pokemon you mentioned it can take on. Bisharp, for example, receives a free Attack boost from Intimidate and Arcanine has to be careful about switching into Bisharp. If Arcanine simply runs max HP it is OHKOed by +1 Life Orb Knock Off and can succumb to death from Stealth Rock if it's Black Glasses Bisharp. Though Arcanine can find opportunities to switch-in and feel a presence of sorts, it actually struggles against a lot of core Pokemon that are on these teams. Arcanine has to be careful about spreading Will-O-Wisp because some Pokemon can benefit from the burn (Conkeldurr) or shrug it off (Chansey / Sylveon can at least Heal Bell or Natural Cure their way out of burns). Rotom-W, a decent Pokemon to absorb status in dire emergencies, threatens to OHKO Arcanine after Stealth Rock with STAB Hydro Pump.
I guess here's the thing - with only Flare Blitz as your attack with no real way of psuedo-hazing and reliant on burning to really hold its effectiveness, it is a mediocre Pokemon and not a Pokemon sought in teambuilding. It struggles offensively to find a niche for obvious reasons. Defensively, there are better Pokemon that utilize some of its qualities better even if it does not have all of them meshed into one. Heatran is a good example - its Steel-typing makes it immune to Toxic and offers it a boatload of resistances. It has access to Taunt, STAB Lava Plume so Heatran can consider running Toxic and really threaten switch-ins, on top of many other things.
Here is another argument as to why Arcanine doesn't really deserve an analysis, at least offensively:
Okay so watching those replays, it seemed like the only real competition for an opponent was the swag116 player, who still did rather horrid (if he just used Flamethrower your Chansey would've been toast... though lolEarthquake). I guess we'll start from the bottom and end up here.
Comparing Arcanine to Landorus-T is a tricky debate, but Landorus-T has a lot of perks over its so-called counterpart Arcanine.
Remember Edgequake? Well, Smack Down + Earthquake threatens two common Defog users (Zapdos and Skarmory in particular) to let it safely lay Stealth Rock and keep it on the field. Furthermore, you can Smack Down threats such as Lati@s or Mandibuzz and take advantage of the lost Levitate ability (or in Mandibuzz's case the lack of Flying-typing). While Landorus-T lacks Will-O-Wisp, it has something that a lot of teams realistically want - it has Stealth Rock, it has a means of scaring Defog users as well as Excadrill, and it has an offensive presence.
So a few things. One, Arcanine (the set you presented) is completely walled by Heatran. It is a living invitation for Heatran to come in. It also can allow other Pokemon such as Charizard X and even Charizard Y to come in and scare Arcanine a bit. Though Zard Y takes a bit from STAB Flare Blitz, it can Roost off the damage and force a draw. Though, Mega Charizard X gets a free Dragon Dance or can just sit its ass there and laugh at everything Arcanine tries to throw at it.
Next, it is a large double-edged sword against some of the Pokemon you mentioned it can take on. Bisharp, for example, receives a free Attack boost from Intimidate and Arcanine has to be careful about switching into Bisharp. If Arcanine simply runs max HP it is OHKOed by +1 Life Orb Knock Off and can succumb to death from Stealth Rock if it's Black Glasses Bisharp. Though Arcanine can find opportunities to switch-in and feel a presence of sorts, it actually struggles against a lot of core Pokemon that are on these teams. Arcanine has to be careful about spreading Will-O-Wisp because some Pokemon can benefit from the burn (Conkeldurr) or shrug it off (Chansey / Sylveon can at least Heal Bell or Natural Cure their way out of burns). Rotom-W, a decent Pokemon to absorb status in dire emergencies, threatens to OHKO Arcanine after Stealth Rock with STAB Hydro Pump.
I guess here's the thing - with only Flare Blitz as your attack with no real way of psuedo-hazing and reliant on burning to really hold its effectiveness, it is a mediocre Pokemon and not a Pokemon sought in teambuilding. It struggles offensively to find a niche for obvious reasons. Defensively, there are better Pokemon that utilize some of its qualities better even if it does not have all of them meshed into one. Heatran is a good example - its Steel-typing makes it immune to Toxic and offers it a boatload of resistances. It has access to Taunt, STAB Lava Plume so Heatran can consider running Toxic and really threaten switch-ins, on top of many other things.
Here is another argument as to why Arcanine doesn't really deserve an analysis, at least offensively:
Flareon is a nuke, but it doesn't have the bulk or coverage to make it viable, imo.
Also, I've always felt Arcanine was at least somewhat viable in OU, however, they've made the requirements much more strict. Arcanine simply isn't a Pokemon you'd want to use on a team; it does have a niche, but it isn't big enough to warrant an analysis, similar to Tentacruel, Jirachi, and Jellicent. You're much more often going to want Victini, Entei, Charizard, or Heatran on a team.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Arcanine has a real niche and that is the fact that is probably one of the best Mega Mawile counters. Heatran, Venusaur, Mega Scizor and a handful of others that can claim to counter some Mawile sets can get beaten by common coverage moves, FOcus Punch, Iron Head and Fire fang while Arcanine has to watch out for the dreaded ~stone edge mawile~.
Now certainly Mawile is a terror however a lot of teams are able to deal with it by virtue of its lack of Speed, or by for slower teams bringing two counters such as Venu + Tran which can beat mawile if you know its set. Because of this, countering Mawile and a small handful of other attackers, namely Scizor is not enough to give it a large niche as you fill this defensive gap with other Pokemon that perform better in general.
Arcanine's held back pretty badly on accunt of its defensive role being a physically defensive fire-type. Earthquake is a staple coverage move for basically every physical attacker in OU besides a small handful. Charizard X, Pinsir, Dragonite, Chomper, Lando-T, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Gyarados, and a long, long list of XY OU's best physical attackers carry powerful moves that hit Arcanine super effectively, often 2HKOing or even OHKOing. The defiant users Bisharp and Thundurus are also an issue for Arc, they add to the list of physically offensive XY OU attackers that ARcanine can not deal with as a wall should.
Kind of a shame Genesect is kill, because Arc counters band gene actually which would have added to its niche quite a lot. I would say that ARcanine occupies a small niche in XY OU, but its flaws overshadow its merits too greatly, and although it can perform reasonably effectively it isn't viable enough to warrant analysis.
I say come back if Genesect shows its face in XY OU again and it might stand a chance of being accepted.
Now certainly Mawile is a terror however a lot of teams are able to deal with it by virtue of its lack of Speed, or by for slower teams bringing two counters such as Venu + Tran which can beat mawile if you know its set. Because of this, countering Mawile and a small handful of other attackers, namely Scizor is not enough to give it a large niche as you fill this defensive gap with other Pokemon that perform better in general.
Arcanine's held back pretty badly on accunt of its defensive role being a physically defensive fire-type. Earthquake is a staple coverage move for basically every physical attacker in OU besides a small handful. Charizard X, Pinsir, Dragonite, Chomper, Lando-T, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Gyarados, and a long, long list of XY OU's best physical attackers carry powerful moves that hit Arcanine super effectively, often 2HKOing or even OHKOing. The defiant users Bisharp and Thundurus are also an issue for Arc, they add to the list of physically offensive XY OU attackers that ARcanine can not deal with as a wall should.
Kind of a shame Genesect is kill, because Arc counters band gene actually which would have added to its niche quite a lot. I would say that ARcanine occupies a small niche in XY OU, but its flaws overshadow its merits too greatly, and although it can perform reasonably effectively it isn't viable enough to warrant analysis.
I say come back if Genesect shows its face in XY OU again and it might stand a chance of being accepted.
Arcanine is a legitimately intriguing Pokemon in OU. However, its niche is simply too small, and it's not effective enough to get an analysis. If we go through the major offensive threats of OU, the only ones that it can handle well are Breloom, Mawile, Scizor, and Talonflame. There are other Pokemon that can do this while not being weak to Stealth Rock, posing more of an offensive presence, countering a broader array of threats, or having all-around better stats.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
I understand that Arcanine has a terrible defensive typing and yes, there is a handful of physical attacking pokemon that can easily stop Arcanine. Landorus-T, if not burned, can quite easily OHKO Arcanine with Earthquake, but I'm not sure if Heatran is really better than Arcanine. Yes, it has a ton of resistances and a very handy immunity to Toxic, but Arcanine can actually stop physical attackers that Heatran won't even think about taking on. One in specific is Gyarados. I have created a situation where Gyarados uses Dragon Dance on the turn Arcanine switches in, so Gyarados is at neutral. Arcanine can live a waterfall and burn it. Then, it actually has a chance of living the next waterfall. Heatran has absolutely no chance against Gyarados and easily dies from an Earthquake. Plus, Arcanine, after the attack drop from Intimidate, can tank hits even better than a physically defensive Heatran can. Plus, Arcanine has reliable recovery while Heatran has none whatsoever. Needs anything else? It doesn't have Extreme Speed. Plus, yes, the named set I gave is walled by Heatran, but Arcanine does have Close Combat. Heatran just gives Arcanine another good reason to run Close Combat, the other reason being Tyranitar. Plus, while Arcanine can't touch Heatran without Close Combat, what can Heatran use? Earth Power? Arcanine out-speeds Heatran and has a chance to 2HKO while at the same time, Heatran has a chance to 2HKO with Earth Power. Arcanine, after finishing off Heatran, can just gain its health back with Morning Sun.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Additionally, I don't think having a x4 weakness to anything is good at all for a wall, no matter how many resistances it has. Especially since this weakness is the ever common Earthquake.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
I really don't see Arcanine's niche being small. Right now, I'm trying to think of a variety of reasons for why it's not as good as Heatran, and aside from the Stealth Rock weakness and the variety of resistances, I'm not seeing it. Heatran doesn't even have reliable recovery. It's true that it gets Stealth Rocks, but is that the defining difference between Arcanine and Heatran? Because Heatran being good for Stealth Rocks isn't really a good thing, especially when there are other pokemon that are pretty much as bulky and don't have a x4 weakness that can set them up. Even Landorus and Landorus-T have a x4 Ice type weakness, but they are a lot faster than Heatran and the later of the two has access to Intimidate. Skarmory, for instance, can be a great partner for Arcanine and can set up Spikes and Stealth Rocks while being really bulky at the same time. If there is something else I'm missing, please tell me, but most of the time I use Arcanine, it's been amazing. I doubt its niche is small and situational because it has walled something in pretty much every game I've played.
Hi I'm Quagsire.
edit: i fucking forgot ferro, scizor, gliscor, lando-t, bulkytar, bulkynite, and tran lmao (and formerly the godly forretress)
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