Other Stall

[dice]

The people still building VenuTran cores don't realize the best team in that archtype has been made... I've played with it multiple times and to my knowledge it is borderline unbeatable. Those on TFL's good side have gotten to see the whole team, as he doesn't even reveal it in his RMT (A shame, I'd nominate it in a second). It's basically unfair and all other stall following the same VenuTranQuag core are just doing it wrong... Words simply can't describe how awful it makes every other stall in that archtype look.

I've still been working on other versions... Got some help today on my most recent team and made some adjustments... It doesn't play like a stall team in the strictest sense of the word, as the bulk is much lighter in exchange for taunts and giving the player room to outplay the opponent. Skill-based teams in general (those that give players the chance to make the best of a matchup over the match being decided from the get-go) are hard to judge due to the creator having to judge his own ability to the success he's having.

LOL "unbeatable" "best team"

you are obviously ignorant to several competent teams and are just riding your buddy

but what do i care

i think there is the most room to explore in stall atm out of the playstyles. there isn't really a "defined best build yet" like there was with bw1 rain stall or whatever, and that makes it interesting. and no, i highly doubt tfl's team is the answer to this!

 

[Ajwf]

When I said "Archtype" I was referring to the VenuTran core. As that's a subtype of a whole, this was a fine usage. I'm not sure you've seen it, DICE... As someone who builds stall and would like to make a team better, I do not say that statement lightly. Sure, all teams are "beatable" by definition. However, there are teams (Sinclair's DeoSharp comes to mind) that have the ability to maintain a stature as close to that as possible. I've played thousands of stall matches this generation, mostly with my own teams, but I've not come across one like TFL's that allows you to win with such ease. Dice, I'm not making any stretches when I say his team is the best of that archtype.

I agree that there HAS to be other explorable categories of stall. However, after research, two things came up. The first was simply the existence of Bisharp in a meta with no spinners stall can appreciate. Bisharp defines a large portion of how the metagame has developed, specifically in our understanding of hazards. The counters it has are limited (Aka Quagsire... there are others, but limited nevertheless).

Secondly, Gamefreak simply didn't GIVE stall much else. We got mega venu, we have fairies, and we can kinda benefit from defog if not facing bisharp or wanting to use it ourselves. Aggron kinda passes, but other than that on all the teams I've made this gen, I've used 3 kalos pokemon outside of megas... (Sylveon, Aegislash, Chesnaught?). All three are fantastic, obviously. However, Aegi really isn't stall... It can be if it wants to but that's a suboptimal role outside of countering mega gard.

 

[TFL]

It's about time I made my appearance.

When I build and steal teams I look for something as close to as perfection as possible in this imperfect game.
Last generation, I stole my stall teams, because I could not build anything better. And at the end of the generation there was only one stall I felt was worth using.
I have not stolen any stalls in XY thus far, which is pretty sad, it just seems the build quality of it has really taken a dive. I no longer consider my Venusaur team the best - it's outdated. My current team is the one I played you with in HPL, Dice. And if you've seen anything better, don't hesitate to send them my way ^^

This metagame is constantly shifting, what is perhaps the best won't stay the best. IPL got me into stall some time in 2009 (I think), and if there's one thing I've learned from him it's that stall shouldn't aim to beat everything, but beat the metagame! That's something everybody seems to have forgotten.

I updated the thread, Ajwf ~

 

[Clair]

Just wondering, in all these months I have been gone has anyone made a successful stall team featuring Forretress or some other rapid spinner? I am an ol'rapid spin fan myself and it seems like Tentacruel is the only one with a niche left anymore for stall. I am doing some quick theroymoning but it doesn't seem like any match the utility of it and just ends up being dead weight.

I've made a couple of top 10 teams running SpDef Tenta, though always in conjunction with Gothitelle to remove grounded Poisons and the Skarm most stall teams use as their Defogger, which means basically an auto-win against most common stall archetypes with TSpikes. I don't like M-Blastoise or Exca on anything but bulky offense, and everything else is just a bad choice.

Now that I think about it, the only teams I've felt really happy with this gen have run either SpDef Tenta or PhysDef Defog Zapdos (with a bit of speed and special attack investment to take out Adamant Bisharp). Skarmory is ridiculously overused in this meta imo; it gets usage as far as I'm concerned because its easy to teambuild around (good synergy with other popular stallmons).

 

[jbtc10]

I've made a couple of top 10 teams running SpDef Tenta, though always in conjunction with Gothitelle to remove grounded Poisons and the Skarm most stall teams use as their Defogger, which means basically an auto-win against most common stall archetypes with TSpikes. I don't like M-Blastoise or Exca on anything but bulky offense, and everything else is just a bad choice.

Now that I think about it, the only teams I've felt really happy with this gen have run either SpDef Tenta or PhysDef Defog Zapdos (with a bit of speed and special attack investment to take out Adamant Bisharp). Skarmory is ridiculously overused in this meta imo; it gets usage as far as I'm concerned because its easy to teambuild around (good synergy with other popular stallmons).

Mega Blastoise is pretty underrated and underused on stall teams though, I can attest to it being a key player in a lot of my games. In a vacuum, Rapid Spin is better than Defog. Everyone ideally wants the best of both worlds; having hazards up on your opponents side and having none on yours. This is what Mega Blastoise does for teams as he does it reliably thanks to having a strong offensive capability, good bulk and typing. Rapid Spin is also more risk-free these days in a world where Defiant users are more common and threatening than Ghost types, especially in Blastoise's case who can't be reliably spinblocked regardless if they have a ghost or not.

Perhaps the best thing about Mega Blastoise from a (laddering) meta perspective is that he almost singlehandedly allows you to beat DeoSharp teams, since he destroys all 3 of the main components (Deo, Aegi, Bisharp) and he's no pushover against most of the other common members you see on those teams like Keldeo, Garchomp, etc. He's pretty hard to switch into as well, dealing 50% to most things with the right move as they come in.

There's an opportunity cost in that you can't use other megas (mainly Venusaur), but Venusaur really isn't the be-all of Stall like it used to be, and it has some reasonable replacements like Amoongus who can do a similar thing anyway. The lack of recovery is a thing, but you have Wish on Chansey for a reason and the two work well together.

 

[skies]

How do you guys go about beating Mega Heracross?
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 185-225 (50.8 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 240-285 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 255-305 (64.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 536-632 (138.8 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These are just a few Pokemon common on Stall, but I've yet to find a solution to M-Heracross besides resorting to Brave Bird Skarmory, but even then, it can switch out and proceed to wreck later on. Nothing can safely switch into it on Stall and nothing can withstand its assaults, imagine it after a Swords Dance! So basically my question is: how does stall beat Mega Heracross?
Taunt / Will-o-Wisp / Brave Bird / U-turn Talonflame ;]

 

[Ajwf]

Don't use common stall pokemon? Sylveon has issues, but I can hit with sylveon, lose it and revenge kill... Skarm is similar... Sacrifice, check. Just damage the damn thing.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A skarm sacrifice, or some other situational sacrifice is the best option.

You can't be prepared for everything, there are just some Pokemon you have to sometime GG on, the best you can do is try to limit the number of Pokemon like that.

 

[Clair]

Not true. It depends on the Hera set, but for the standard bulky attacker, the likes of Gliscor, Chesnaught and Lando-T all check it pretty well. I've actually been running SubBU Hera recently which always wins against those three, while not being easily revenged or played around using death fodder.

If you can't fit one of those three onto your team, it's still not that hard to play round the standard Hera. Physically defensive Zapdos (so long as you outspeed), Gyarados, Hippowdon with Toxic, Alomomola, Skarm kinda, all check it. Most stall teams should carry some kind of offensive mon(s) to pressure defensive teams and provide a quicker way to break down offensive teams, often providing you with a revenge killer for M-Hera (which is the only way to handle SD Hera). Only when you've actually exhausted all these teambuilding options should you just resign yourself to losing to it.

 

[skies]

Not true. It depends on the Hera set, but for the standard bulky attacker, the likes of Gliscor, Chesnaught and Lando-T all check it pretty well. I've actually been running SubBU Hera recently which always wins against those three, while not being easily revenged or played around using death fodder.

If you can't fit one of those three onto your team, it's still not that hard to play round the standard Hera. Physically defensive Zapdos (so long as you outspeed), Gyarados, Hippowdon with Toxic, Alomomola, Skarm kinda, all check it. Most stall teams should carry some kind of offensive mon(s) to pressure defensive teams and provide a quicker way to break down offensive teams, often providing you with a revenge killer for M-Hera (which is the only way to handle SD Hera). Only when you've actually exhausted all these teambuilding options should you just resign yourself to losing to it.

After Swords Dance:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 255-305 (72 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
+1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 325-385 (85 - 100.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 185-225 (48.6 - 59.2%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 320-380 (83.5 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 330-390 (99.3 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 63.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can take on all of those bar Gliscor, who will lose after Swords Dance. I get it's not impossible to stop, but it's just a very powerful threat to Stall.

 

[Clair]

Lol why are you calcing against 4/0 Gyarados and 252/0 Lando-T? If we do some more realistic calcs, 252+ M-Hera Rock Blast does 55.9-68.7% against 248/252+ Gyarados, and you still get Intimidate on it. If you don't get outpredicted on the switchin, you're taking less than 25%. In fact, unless you get hit by Rock Blast switching in, you can never be 2HKO'd. In Lando-T's case, you switch in against any of its attacks, get Intimidate on it, and take like 25% max after Lefties recovery. Gliscor beats it pretty easily in general, especially if you tailor it specifically to beat Hera (e.g. Fling + Toxic Orb + Acro which easily handles even the SDer). I concede that Chesnaught doesn't beat it, it's more like a soft check since you win easily 1v1 or if you manage to switch in against Rock Blast / Bullet Seed.

Hera's calcs are amazing, but it really isn't difficult to play around. SD is different to an extent, because it is one of those things that can't be walled under any circumstances, but I've never found it to be problematic because a) it's rarely used, and b), I always carry something which can outspeed and kill it, which isn't difficult to do, even for stall.

tl;dr - If the opponent uses up his Mega slot on an anti-stall mon, using its most anti-stall set, then yes, you're going to have to either out-predict your opponent or you're going to lose one Pokemon every time it comes in. It's very similar to someone using Goth, in that it requires you to play around it (especially by preventing it from coming in regularly). In both cases, you have to remember that there's an opportunity cost to using that anti-stall mon, and that your opponent is losing points against offensive teams because, let's say, he's using M-Hera instead of Char-X.

 

[jbtc10]

Mega Heracross can generally be countered by SubToxic Gliscor. There are also other counters depending on the set it's running, like Aegislash if it isn't using EQ. If it has SD or Sub, then that does reduce its coverage quite a lot, as without Pin Missile Mew can take any hit easily and burn it with WoW. As TFL said, the actually used version of Clefable (who uses specially denfensive??) is a good bet, although with SR up it becomes a little more shaky and Mega Hera also has 10 chances for 1 (or more) of the hits to land a crit, which can be annoying, but still one of the best options.

 

[jbtc10]

I was going to post in the "Playstyle of the Week" thread, but if the trend of the past editions of that thread are anything to go by, it's only going to get locked in a couple of days anyway so it could potentially be a waste of time.

Anyhow, this is about Ditto.

Ditto has quite a number of really good uses for stall. It can be nearly impossible for a lot offensive mons to be able to muscle their way past walls without boosts. By including a Ditto on your team, you are basically doing a similar thing to what DeoSharp does, which is severely punishing or cutting off a primary option your opponent has for dealing with your strategy, and Ditto arguably does this to an even greater extent than Defiant users do in DeoSharp. Since offensive teams are much more frail and susceptible to boosted attackers (especially fast ones), facing a devastating counter sweep could easily be on the cards if they decide to boost, while facing being perpetually walled if they don't. This situation can be pretty debilitating for offense.

Because of this reality, Ditto also serves as a near universal way of ensuring your team doesn't have a big weakness to any of the relatively large number of diverse set-up sweepers that exist in the meta and can free up team slots for things that don't necessarily need to individually cover each of the threats in the meta anymore. For example, Charizard X is pretty damn hard to wall at +1 and has a very limited number of options. Charizard X is also a huge threat to offense itself at +1, especially when it's at +2 speed so simply sacking your least needed team member then stealing the boosts and smacking them right back can easily lead to a win if done at the right moment.

Ditto also ensures your team wont lose to things like CroCune and Clefable, and this replay here shows how the combination of Chansey + Ditto prevents you from losing against them (vs a Standard VenuTranSkarmChansQuag team); http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-120215913 Ditto also gives you an unlimited supply of PP in PP wars against opposing Stall teams which can help act as a another win condition in some grindy games, especially if you keep transforming into something with a recovery move. Finally, Ditto gives Stall a massive weapon against Baton Pass teams, as simply spamming Seismic Toss to break Substitutes ensures that Ditto will always be ready to come in and steal whatever boosts they have amassed and sweep them with it when the time is right. Replay here is showing the pressure it puts on BP and how it restricts what moves they can make; http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119877536

 

[thatgirl]

Just curious, but has anyone tried out Aromatisse? Compared to Clefable, it has nearly the same stat spread, with notably worse speed. It also has a worse move pool, compared to Clefable's movepoolocean. One of the best things about Clefable are the incredible abilities it has access to in Unaware and Magic Guard. However, Aromatisse's Aroma Veil does give it a cool immunity to Taunt, Encore, Disable and Torment (not that Torment really sees much use). This would let it set up Calm Mind or act as a dedicated cleric with Wish+Aromatherapy without caring at all about Taunt. Then again, Clefable brings just so much more to the table with Unaware / Magic Guard and moves like Flamethrower, Soft-Boiled / Moonlight, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Encore, Healing Wish, (the list goes on...).

Is (essentially) a Taunt-immune Clefable ever worth it over an Indirect damage immune Clefable or a Stat boost ignoring Clefable?

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

Just curious, but has anyone tried out Aromatisse? Compared to Clefable, it has nearly the same stat spread, with notably worse speed. It also has a worse move pool, compared to Clefable's movepoolocean. One of the best things about Clefable are the incredible abilities it has access to in Unaware and Magic Guard. However, Aromatisse's Aroma Veil does give it a cool immunity to Taunt, Encore, Disable and Torment (not that Torment really sees much use). This would let it set up Calm Mind or act as a dedicated cleric with Wish+Aromatherapy without caring at all about Taunt. Then again, Clefable brings just so much more to the table with Unaware / Magic Guard and moves like Flamethrower, Soft-Boiled / Moonlight, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Encore, Healing Wish, (the list goes on...).

Is (essentially) a Taunt-immune Clefable ever worth it over an Indirect damage immune Clefable or a Stat boost ignoring Clefable?

In a word, no. A large part of Clefable's viability is it's abilities, letting it set up calm minds/ wall setup sweepers/ pass wishes more reliably. Aromatisse is just not very viable as the (in my opinion) most viable stall breaker, Gengar, gets an easy 2 hit ko after rocks, assuming stallbreaker Gar and max hp max spdef Aromatisse. I suppose it could work as a taunt mega gyara check, but it's really niche.

 

[Ajwf]

Alright, so I took some flak for what I believe to be the top 10 mons to use on a stall team right now. Most of it I shrug off because honestly I respect five or six people to know more than I do on the subject and none of them have said anything about it (p2, like Electross and Sassy chomp, are kinda my own projects where people like Yutt constantly use alomomola, Aggron, manatine and the likes. We'll give each other advice on them but generally let each other hold their own opinions on their viability).

Now, the list, for reference, was: MVenu 1, Chansey 2, Sylveon 3, Skarmory 4, P2 5, Heatran 6, Chesnuaght 7, Quag 8 (too many bulk flaws), CharX 9, Clef 10. I'll go through all of them. In all honesty, I might even have thrown Aggron-mega up as well. I'm going to explain it and see if anyone wants to critique. To be honest, the only people who venture through this thread are the ones who play stall so I don't have to worry about irrelevant opinions as much.

1. Mega Venusaur. jbtc10 wanted to state that ZardX and Venu are different, but venu isn't as important as we think... Well. The first is easily correct, second is not. While venu holds a different niche than Amoongus, I never compared them and to be honest, Amoongus is kinda hit/miss on it's own role (can't stop BD azumarill).

But, Venu is as important as we say. The reasoning? Well, it walls so much. While that seems like a copout, it is hard to nail down what exactly Venu's purpose is, which is why I referred to it as a cornerstone. It is something that you can use and build teams around with ease. Apparently a formula has been found, but once venu is in, the question isn't "What do I wall next", it's literally "What did venu miss?". Venu misses Flying types, Psychic types, Landorus, Kyurem and a few others. Very, very high level look obviously. But let's face it, I wouldn't be making a terrible stretch to leave it at that. The flying/psyshic/fire/ice kinda issue are all solved with heatran, which is why he was ever USED on stall. Heatran is not important, please understand. We'll get to that, but heatran is simply there to support venu.

2. Chansey. While again jbtc wants it as #1 (which, you could make an argument for), think of it like this: Venusaur is a high wall for 75-90% of the meta. Chansey is nearly an insurmountable wall for 50%. There's a difference in what you need. Obviously, chansey's team support is invaluable, but it is not the only one in the world that can give that. Alomomla drops wish bombs, Sylveon doesn't do bad, and oddities like Heal bell meloetta/clefable/whatever you find it on do exist. Chansey is HARD to replace. Venusaur is IMPOSSIBLE. There simply is nothing that does what he does, as his typing (grass/poison) is deceptive as hell. He doesn't have grass standard weaknesses. In fact, a type to think of venu is Fighting when viewing his only weaknesses and steel when viewing resists, taking none of those weaknesses and none of fight's resists into account.

3. Sylveon. Oh let the rage begin. First off, there is no way anyone who has EVER used stall could confess Clefable to be a better cleric. Simply impossible. Secondly, Sylveon provides, outside of Mega Gardevoir who is questionable for stall, the third most fire power provided by any stall mon (aegi is above, heatran is barely above iirc). That forces switches. Which means turns, leftover recovery and wish passing. But more importantly, it has stats that you NOTICE. Clefable can't attest to that, but clutches to unaware. Sorry, really good stall players can get by without unaware in MOST situations. The "Most" part is where you do use Clef. Besides chansey, it is the only cleric that should ever be built around.

I've written that post on it, just going to link it. Same thread obv.

4. Skarmory. Skarm used to be like chansey in the fact that it was a nigh insurmountable wall for 50% of the meta... and then power creep. Well, Skarm has three major roles this gen that are nigh irreplaceable. 1. Walling Pinsir-mega. This is now slightly less important, but it takes +3 mega pinsir so room for fuckup is there. Counter/taunt is nice. 2. Defog OR hazard setting (the first major distinction from Zapdos). It gives you maneuverability to find a hazard setter/clearer and allow skarm to take the other role. Most commonly, skarm defogs as it is the single best defogger in OU. 3. Azumarill check. While it doesn't take BD azum, it can sure wall the monster CB Azum, and quag can take the BD anyways so w/e. These roles are important, but number 2 is the reason it has this spot as the other two are solvable otherwise.

5. Porygon2. People love to hate this one, but let's face it, this guy is so good that if you don't use chansey, p2 should be considered on the team. It gives teams endgames without having to go semi-stall. It scouts, it sweeps, it walls... It is really fucking unique thanks to the bland typing and good bulk. Allows for great maneuverability on what you need done and gives a "wild card" as I discussed a while ago. A way out of bad situations, more than any other pokemon. Access to bolt beam, recovery and utility moves (I prefer magic coat over toxic right now for taunt/rock leads). This one is a great addition to any team lacking chansey/fighting weakness. One of two mons that can beat the devastating mixed mega chomp. Beats prankster thundurus, turns Greninja into a liability, and gives you nigh instant win vs teams with Gliscor. Underrated/overrated? Who gives a fuck, it's really good.

6. Heatran. I'm doing everyone a favor by having it here. It's EQ weak, fight weak, doesn't solve bisharp and loses a ton of momentum vs landorus versions. Really sucks vs Conkeldurr but Conk can't break Venu in a million years so who cares? Opens VenuTran cores up to be cracked easy by Lando-i, too. But, it takes Talonflame, most psychics and some ice/fire mons (whoops, you missed out on mamoswine, ZardYX and anything smart enough to have EQ, didn't you...)... So not most ice/fire types, eh? But what it does is set rocks, roar setup sweepers lacking EQ/fight moves and is a general pain for talonflame, the anti-venu. Any more, I'd prefer to fade this spot out for TFL's Krookodile, an Arcanine or maybe even Volcanion but for now he's it... And if you use ZardX, you lose venu-mega so... Well, it is decent but only due to Venusaur's success and heatran's synergy. On it's own, it'd be a decent stall mon but nothing more.

7. Chesnaught is one of my favorites in Gen6. Someone on Showdown (was it @IAmGingy?) told me to look into it when I started the triremes. I loved it and since have believed it is the second best mon xy gave stall this gen (sylveon wrecks lol). Edgequake resist, Venusaur mega deterrent (Venu needs Hp fire to get by I think), Gyarados/TTar-mega counter... Makes this guy so worth it. Great physical defense, special protect move, aegi counter, bisharp counter... Seeds on switch and deters opponent chansey/quagsire... This guy is just too good to never look at. Would be my fifth in a world where Venu-mega didn't exist (Venu gone, heatran gone). Could easily be 6th right now.

8. Quagsire is almost a necessary evil. ZardX check/counter Idk... Stops mega Scizor, stops mega TTar... Well, you get the idea. Lots of boosters fall to him, but Bisharp (his first counter) kinda likes Grass Knot. Can't stop special boosters at all and can occasionally get railed by surprise HP grass (did you know ZardX has like 130 SpA? HP Grass spam hits at the worst possible time and it is a thing now because Quag can be so hard to get around. So his effectiveness has gone down dramatically. Still a nice check to certain BP chains but by no means a stop.

9. Charizard-X. Yeah, it's insane. Burn Support, Roost, Electric weak to resist, Immune to EQ base form (which, you trade immune to weak for 4x rock to 2x rock weak) and one of like 2 pokemon (reshiram other?) immune to burns that resists scald... But... It doesn't counter ENOUGH to ever be a cornerstone like Venu. In a vacuum, it is top 3 or 4. However, this is not the case. It does have a fantastic counter to ZardY, but Chansey exists and ZardX can't take Lando-i. There are limits here, and they are real. The Rock weakness means even though it resists volt turn, it still takes massive amounts of damage to it. On teams that are centered to keep rocks away, you might consider him. However otherwise... VenuMega, AggronMega, or GyaradosMega all have great roles without that rock weakness.

10. Clefable is, quite frankly, the worst cleric I've ever seen. I've used it probably 200 matches in cleric role and then just decided that team would be balance and changed Clefable into a CM sweeper. In the CM unaware role, it is passable. However, the bulk again lets it down... It simply cannot beat pokemon like Venusaur, Scizor, Excadrill and many other common issues at any boost. Dragonite WP gives it a huge niche and time to do work (as MG is a possible ability so they kinda go for a DD anyways... Idk why you'd ever assume MG first but w/e).

As a cleric, 1/10. (10 being like Venusaur's importance to stall... the highest available but not objectively perfect). Absolute garbage, can barely get wishes to teammates. As a CM sweeper (aka a semi-stall role), I'd give it a 6.5 or 7. Can't really overlook it... but it is easily redundant with another fairy or even chansey in some cases (for some reason, so much pink just doesn't work).

 

[EnerG218]

5. Porygon2. People love to hate this one, but let's face it, this guy is so good that if you don't use chansey, p2 should be considered on the team. It gives teams endgames without having to go semi-stall. It scouts, it sweeps, it walls... It is really fucking unique thanks to the bland typing and good bulk. Allows for great maneuverability on what you need done and gives a "wild card" as I discussed a while ago. A way out of bad situations, more than any other pokemon. Access to bolt beam, recovery and utility moves (I prefer magic coat over toxic right now for taunt/rock leads). This one is a great addition to any team lacking chansey/fighting weakness. One of two mons that can beat the devastating mixed mega chomp. Beats prankster thundurus, turns Greninja into a liability, and gives you nigh instant win vs teams with Gliscor. Underrated/overrated? Who gives a fuck, it's really good.

I completely agree, why does no one else like porygon 2? It completely outclasses chansey and should be considered on any team. Ive scouted so many times with it, for example to see if the opposing goodra is specially defensive, the chansey is specially defensive, or if the ferrothorn is physically defensive. Its amazing 105 Special attack is greatly complimented by its STAB boosted Tri Attack. After an analytic, almost nothing can withstand a hit from this monster! Recovery allows it to wall any ou mon and the legendary Bolt Beam allows it to be an offensive threat too. Mixed Mega Chomp is also very common this gen and almost no one has counters to it, so this monster can come in. In the end, none of this even really matters, as TFL has created the legendary unbeatable team and has gone on to perfect Mega Venusaur teams, so what is the point of any other stallteam? We already have the masterpiece.

12:22Molki always rekt tfl
^ Demote this guy for lying, he never deserved anything anyways

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I completely agree, why does no one else like porygon 2? It completely outclasses chansey and should be considered on any team.

Thing is it struggles vs status that and it doesn't have access to heal bell, wish or stealth rock

also as per 1760 stats last month garchompite only on 13.3% Garchomp and garchomp still only on 15% of teams. As such since it isn't that common being on less than 2% of teams, therefore most stall team I makes I just usually let it beat me and deal with more common wallbreakers: Lando, Mega Medicham, Kube

 

[ItoI6]

Chansey is HARD to replace. Venusaur is IMPOSSIBLE.

i think youve got that a bit backwards there, ive never seen an effective x/y stall team that doesnt carry chansey while amoongus can fill the same role as mega-venu if you really dont want to use it, and there are still other bulky grass types that you can use that have slightly different roles. stall is just completely screwed without chansey and theres really no substitute for it at all

3. Sylveon.

lol

5. Porygon2. People love to hate this one, but let's face it, this guy is so good that if you don't use chansey, p2 should be considered on the team.

why would i ever not use chansey though, and why would i ever use porygon2 of all things over chansey. Chansey takes physical hits only slightly worse, takes special hits much better, can use healbell, rocks, and has natural cure as a more consistent ability.

6. Heatran. I'm doing everyone a favor by having it here. It's EQ weak, fight weak, doesn't solve bisharp and loses a ton of momentum vs landorus versions. Really sucks vs Conkeldurr but Conk can't break Venu in a million years so who cares? Opens VenuTran cores up to be cracked easy by Lando-i, too. But, it takes Talonflame, most psychics and some ice/fire mons (whoops, you missed out on mamoswine, ZardYX and anything smart enough to have EQ, didn't you...)... So not most ice/fire types, eh? But what it does is set rocks, roar setup sweepers lacking EQ/fight moves and is a general pain for talonflame, the anti-venu. Any more, I'd prefer to fade this spot out for TFL's Krookodile, an Arcanine or maybe even Volcanion but for now he's it... And if you use ZardX, you lose venu-mega so... Well, it is decent but only due to Venusaur's success and heatran's synergy. On it's own, it'd be a decent stall mon but nothing more.

i also think heatran is over-rated on stall but why would u care about other peoples opinions anyways when you already have porygon2 and sylveon in top 5 best stall mons. show us tha truth w/krook and arcanine

7. Chesnaught

it isnt that bad but really lol

VenuMega, AggronMega, or GyaradosMega all have great roles without that rock weakness.

you think mega-aggron and mega-gyara are more viable than mega-scizor and mega-char y on stall? mega-aggron is very mediocre in practice and i cant even picture mega-gyara on stall at all

10. Clefable is, quite frankly, the worst cleric I've ever seen. I've used it probably 200 matches in cleric role and then just decided that team would be balance and changed Clefable into a CM sweeper.

Don't use it as a cleric then, and i think unaware clef is great on stall with unaware moonblast/twave/moonlight/support move and can switch into anything from charx except flare blitz, can twave it, and stall it as it recoils to death. It's more useful then you are making it out to be as it can do this to a number of threats like tglow manaphy and ddance dnite, and can use that last slot to set up rocks, carry calm mind (which has a much better chance against mega-venu when it can get parahaxed) or carry aromatherapy.

it is easily redundant with another fairy or even chansey in some cases (for some reason, so much pink just doesn't work).

it covers chanseys fighting weakness lol they dont have bad synergy just because they r both pink

there are some dubious statements in this list, though perhaps u can show some matches where things like p2 and sylveon work effectively on stall against good players :)

 

[Ajwf]

i think youve got that a bit backwards there, ive never seen an effective x/y stall team that doesnt carry chansey while amoongus can fill the same role as mega-venu if you really dont want to use it, and there are still other bulky grass types that you can use that have slightly different roles. stall is just completely screwed without chansey and theres really no substitute for it at all

Yeah, you'd think... but as I stated in the next paragraph, MVenu's type is misleading. Amoongus is a poison/grass type. Has regen, which is nice, but lacks the physical bulk to take one of the most important thing a Grass/Poison could take: BD azum. Failing that immediately differentiates them. Venu's access to roar, Knock off and leech seed is another factor outside of physical bulk. Of course, Amoongus has Foul Play, which would be nice if the physical bulk was representative of the kind of setup it faces. More comparably to venu is something like Mandibuzz with all the utility roles they have.

Most of my stall teams (all but one) run clerics besides Chansey. You'd be surprised, it's easy to run without Chansey because of this exact idea that stall NEEDS chansey.

lol

Name me another cleric worth passing wishes with. I've seen Wish Salamence... Wish Latias didn't do me bad last gen. However, the consistency you mention next about chansey isn't with them. Directly comparing what chansey does to sylveon is dangerous as the similarities end at "they compete for a cleric spot". Sylveon's typing, offensive pressure and goodly physical bulk (for clerics) compared to chansey's monstrous bulk, deadweight offense and somewhat "Bland" typing. Both are exceptional, it's just most won't ever learn about Sylveon because they figure Chansey IS irreplaceable.

why would i ever not use chansey though, and why would i ever use porygon2 of all things over chansey. Chansey takes physical hits only slightly worse, takes special hits much better, can use healbell, rocks, and has natural cure as a more consistent ability.

They aren't competing, they just don't co-exist together. Competing is Sylveon to Chansey or Skarm to Zapdos. What P2 is doing is being essentially a gastrodon on a quagsire team at that point. P2 has the monstrous wild card, which almost supplements the need for an offensive wincon while still maintaining stall level bulk. Anyways, I don't NEED consistency because that means I consistently lose to specific mons. P2 has that little play that allows him to give you the chance to outplay what you should lose to.


i also think heatran is over-rated on stall but why would u care about other peoples opinions anyways when you already have porygon2 and sylveon in top 5 best stall mons. show us tha truth w/krook and arcanine

Krook worked because TFL saw how to make it work. Krook, like many other mons we use (my sassy chomp for example) are team situations they're good on, not good overall. Heatran is solid, yes. Arc is something I'd not touch unless I needed a fire type and sub focus punch mawile became ridiculously common. Heatran does get credit for being one of two/three fire mons stall could use, I guess...

it isnt that bad but really lol

Name me aegi counters. It's a short list. While Mandi/Ches are both really nice for this, skarm is the only flying type I'd consider given the need to take M-pinsir with an EQ immune. Bulky dark type dragon dance counter is nice, too... and the magical defensive fight type is as rare as unicorns for stall.

you think mega-aggron and mega-gyara are more viable than mega-scizor and mega-char y on stall? mega-aggron is very mediocre in practice and i cant even picture mega-gyara on stall at all

Mega Scizor's niche is kinda hard to see. I've used it, it's pretty cool, does the job well, but isn't dominate in any way... Gyarados has some pretty cool maneuverability in that taunt w/Mold Breaker (gets baton pass decently) but I've yet to find a perfect set for him. Mega Zard X is pretty excellent, as I've stated. However, there is very real support needed... As for Y, I'm tempted to say the support needed outweighs his... benefits? I'm pretty sure ZardY stall breaks on a stall team, according to some people running Fingercrossed's semi-stall.

However, Aggron-mega IS worth any attention it gets and more. This is Yuttt's little dreamchild but the Counter/Rest/heavy slam/roar set is unreal. I've used it multiple times, and with some decent heal bell support, you have a basic unbreakable physical wall. KOs off +2 MPinsir after tanking the EQ easily. Crushes light opponents that switch in (aka fairies, naturally light, are crushed. Idk, I'll go into more depth some day, or encourage Yuttt to post on it.

Don't use it as a cleric then, and i think unaware clef is great on stall with unaware moonblast/twave/moonlight/support move and can switch into anything from charx except flare blitz, can twave it, and stall it as it recoils to death. It's more useful then you are making it out to be as it can do this to a number of threats like tglow manaphy and ddance dnite, and can use that last slot to set up rocks, carry calm mind (which has a much better chance against mega-venu when it can get parahaxed) or carry aromatherapy.

Gary and I discussed this, but I still feel that a CM set is not a stall set, as the wincon it has is offensive. That wincon is seen in CroCune and some other sleepers (Manaphy? Snorlax?). Those are bulky offense wincons, and while they work when used on stall, the set is not an inherent stall set. It doesn't pivot like the rest of the team. Clefable especially has a bit of a rough time pivoting into attacks (out of the four mentioned, Clefable has the least amount of bulk). In the pivot role, which is how I generally grade a stall mon (how well do you pivot?), Clefable just takes too much residual.

it covers chanseys fighting weakness lol they dont have bad synergy just because they r both pink

I think it's because both aren't going to run cleric so Clefable goes to the CM set... Unfortunately, now you just have two massive heaps of special bulk and nothing to do with them... They're also rather slow and subject to taunts.

there are some dubious statements in this list, though perhaps u can show some matches where things like p2 and sylveon work effectively on stall against good players :)

"Good players" are hard to come by on the ladder. The game in the P2 post vs arcanine is regal comes to mind. I also posted a replay vs Ash Borer in the OU Replay Excellence, and all those replays are in the Terrible Triremes stall thread. I've decayed so much between the last time I touched the ladder (aka last suspect test) and now that my rating is basically irrelevant to "good players" being found. It's roughly 1600 and I don't feel like climbing to ascertain a status set subjectively (what constitutes the level where I'd find these people? What is a good player?) that could simply be tossed out for any reason.

I just responded in bold. While not proper etiquette, I just feel like responding before sleeping so I wrote a little faster.

 

[chive]

So, after playing around with a couple of teams, I've found out that I enjoyed the more defensive-minded teams more, which I guess means that I'm a stall(ish) player. I simply like being able to switch into attacks. So even though I'm still fairly unexperienced, I'll drop my two cents on some Pokes discussed here.

As for Sylveon vs Chansey, I feel like Chansey is better on pure stall teams due to Natural Cure and more bulk, while Sylveon works better on semi-stall/balanced/bulky offense since it has far more offensive presence and Chansey's wishes are also ridicolously fat. I'd like to remark though that Sylveon absolutely wrecks the standard Sub + 3 Attacks-wallbreaker-Cube, which can be a bitch against stall, so if your team struggles against that, Sylveon will solve that problem. It definitely has some advantages over Chansey, mostly being able to run Lefties/not being wrecked as hard by Knock Off (kinda two sides of the same coin), but Chansey's ability to come in on pretty much any expected special hit and shrug it off can not be overestimated.

Regarding Chesnaught, I've tried it out occasionally (one of those times when I took one of Ajwf's teams) and while I see all of its advantages on paper, I found myself having a hard time using it effectively. Leech Seed + Spiky Shield are pretty amazing, but I used Hammer Arm + EQ in the other two slots and found it difficult to really pressure the stuff I brought Ches in on with it. Similar for P2: I saw glimpses of its brilliance, but I had problems using it right I guess, since it wasn't as bulky as I would've liked it to be, didn't pressure as much as I would've liked it to and also wasn't fast enough to make the best of its instant recovery, so I dunno... I love Trace and the possibilities it gives you, though.

I'm still not sure whether I want to go full stall, semi-stall, bulky offense or whatever (and where/how to start if I decide upon one of them), but I'll definitely stick around this thread, lol.

 

[totoTavros]

Same with me, Chive. I am not necessarily very good at stall/semistall yet, but am looking to at least move away from the heavy offense/bulky offense roots from which all we all come from when we first enter the Smogon community.

 

[Jukain]

Ajwf

Basically every good recent stall build has been Char X. I haven't seen good Venu stall in some time (please don't bring up TFL's team), when Char X does so much like handle Bisharp and Char Y easily. Amoon replaces Venu easily and is more reliable vs Keldeo, and provides an excellent Aegislash counter. Char X / Amoon / Quagsire is basically today's stall base, then you have Chansey/Clef/Aegislash/Hippo and other stuff, for example Dice has a build he posted with AV Torn-T for Lando, and stuff like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and CBBNite are also decent. Sylveon is basically replaced by Chansey on stall, there's little reason to run it because Chansey just dominates its roles, and Clefable is the better overall Fairy due to Unaware or even Magic Guard. And there's no way P2 is a top 5 stall mon, there's no way we just haven't 'discovered' how amazing it is -- it's a niche Pokemon that can obviously work, but only on very specific teams ie your triremes is it superior to other things like Chansey and Pokemon with better general utility. Your view of stall just seems biased towards one competent team you made with a bunch of unorthodox Pokemon that's kinda good, but it isn't representative of a stall meta as a whole.

 

[Ajwf]

Ajwf

Basically every good recent stall build has been Char X. I haven't seen good Venu stall in some time (please don't bring up TFL's team), when Char X does so much like handle Bisharp and Char Y easily. Amoon replaces Venu easily and is more reliable vs Keldeo, and provides an excellent Aegislash counter. Char X / Amoon / Quagsire is basically today's stall base, then you have Chansey/Clef/Aegislash/Hippo and other stuff, for example Dice has a build he posted with AV Torn-T for Lando, and stuff like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and CBBNite are also decent. Sylveon is basically replaced by Chansey on stall, there's little reason to run it because Chansey just dominates its roles, and Clefable is the better overall Fairy due to Unaware or even Magic Guard. And there's no way P2 is a top 5 stall mon, there's no way we just haven't 'discovered' how amazing it is -- it's a niche Pokemon that can obviously work, but only on very specific teams ie your triremes is it superior to other things like Chansey and Pokemon with better general utility. Your view of stall just seems biased towards one competent team you made with a bunch of unorthodox Pokemon that's kinda good, but it isn't representative of a stall meta as a whole.

I think you're referring to Finger's team, right? It is an excellent team, I agree. However, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that's the new stall core. If I were to judge by popularity of any core, I can say it'd be a distant second but nothing more. The standard VenuTran core retains so much popularity that it is hard to top.

I'm unsure how Amoongus handles Keldeo better (are you referring to it being able to regenerate?) or Aegi (I'm assuming this is the "Spdef+FoulPLay" thing) but Venusaur shouldn't have issues with either if it didn't want to (obviously EQ exists). I understand that it's used to replace mega venusaur but the issue always will remain that it only can cover so much of what venu does. I'm assuming if it's an aegi counter, it would be running SpDef... Well, it just isn't ever going to be the monster than Venusaur-m is. Certainly solid, but to say it outperforms Venu against Keldeo seems a bit odd.

For the P2 part. Stall's basis is countering the meta, this is a common. However, the meta recently decided to focus on popularizing a lot of weapons to destroy stall teams (lando, Kyub [which I think has gained some usage recently], Goth, SubWisp Gengar all come to mind). Hell, half the questions in OU are probably "How do I break stall" (I highlighted stall to test this). Reading, people drop pokemon, as you'd expect, to beat Venu, Chansey, Quag, Heatran and Skarm. Stupid stuff like GK Bisharp is mentioned. So saying the top 5 stall mons are the most used is obviously incorrect by policy.

I understand that if chansey is used, P2 shouldn't be. That's the same with Venu and Chesnaught, ZardX and Heatran, Skarm and Zapdos. However, P2 is, at the very, very least, an 'average' wall. But then you start counting outside roles and the uniqueness of those roles. Unarguably, it performs a combination of roles that no other mon can (and then some unique to itself as well)... How you value those roles may be different, but for full stall, it is an irreplaceable piece on any team it finds itself on. Irreplaceable, for better or worse to that team. I'm not saying it's priceless on any team. But P2 is a subject to be as good as you are creative. No offense to anyone involved, but if I wanted to list the easiest five to use, I'd just list the standard core... maybe Aegislash in their somewhere. I'm not going to say it's hard to use p2, it isn't. However, it takes a bit of knowledge to understand what you want it to do. Regardless of your agreement with some of my calcs (sorry, Lando-i needs residual to kill it, P2 checks it with sheer force ice beam... And latios HP fighting is a joke Afaik), Pory2 has a great deal of mons it can take, even if only pivoting through to a mon. Adjusting heatran to be forced to use toxic (if applicable) over willowisp or fire blast gives you an easy switch into an EQ user, does it not?

Now, understand a few things here: Going into semi-stall, p2 doesn't have as much to offer. And the meta has shifted that way (albeit slightly). The reason is, they don't need the extra win condition. They have what they need to wall and they can sweep the rest. P2 is a more "general" wall, given this the same way Chansey was given it, the typing. Full Stall in general is a bit more of a "general wall" group (aka Venusaur, what I've been stressing this entire time). What you wall with P2 is your choice for the most part, just avoid knock off and fight moves. Semi-stall aims to "eliminate threats hindering a sweep" and has a very definite list for what needs to be taken care of.

tl;dr last three paragraphs: Pory2's own uniqueness is worth noticing, other mons a bit too meta not to get countered easily. P2 obviously doesn't work for everyone (or semi-stall, as adding an offensive wincon changes more than you'd imagine) but it is unique and has a great deal of upside.

And no, what I show on Smogon isn't all I have, Jukain (Not that I'm greedy, it's just I haven't figured out how to make the teams good enough). This isn't a bias off of one team, I have multiple teams around to test this. Obviously they're me building the P2 models but outside a few builders, it's hard to find any inspiration to begin with (although TFL did recently help me with a semi-stall team... His is better though, so eventually he'll Rmt it [I think]). I'm always willing to see new/interesting stall teams. Hell, I try to hang around and chat with the only group of builders I see with any consistency and if I see a neat team on the ladder (which I don't because I don't ladder so w/e) I do talk to the person to see the logic behind it.

 

[Rotosect]

I find hard to justify a team slot for P2 when Chansey exists. Running both in the same team seriously hurts your defensive synergy due to type redundancy and compounded vulnerability to Knock Off.

As for running P2 over Chansey... sorry I can't see that happening. Chansey is just irreplaceable in my opinion.
P2 does have some useful perks over Chansey, namely better physical bulk, Trace and BoltBeam combination (Discharge is especially nice since it can still annoy the opposing team if it gets taunted).
But the main reason Chansey is a better pick is her ability: Natural Cure is incredibly useful on a Taunt bait, since she may or may not be able to pull an Heal Bell off, making her a great status absorber. If P2 gets statused it's pretty much dead weight for the rest of the match, and smart players will attempt to lure and KO or disable (i.e. with Spore) your non-Chansey cleric (usually Sylveon) as quickly as possible to make sure it stays that way.
On top of that if you face a team with Conkeldurr, running P2 pretty much means starting 5 vs 6.