I know its typing is actively trying to kill it (Psychic and all when Knock Off is really popular) but what is the success rate of using standard Sigilyph to pass out Burns and act as a damage based win condition? The big problem I see with this is the prevalence of Charizard which won't mind the Psycho Shift and will get a free set up turn or attack in since you won't be able to take two hits at +1 Defence/Sp. Defence.
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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Sigilyph isn't good on stall, I can't think of any top threats it walls. Its typing is mediocre and its 72/80/80 defenses are poor. The Psycho Shift set's lack of Leftovers recovery offsets the benefits of Magic Guard eliminating passive damage. If you want something that burns things there are much better choices (e.g. Mew) and in every other sense Clefable is better
Sigilyph is one of those mons that, given the right circumstances (An unprepared team, and dark and/or steel types taken out), can wreak havoc (especially in Randbats. Seriously fuck this thing if you run into it in randbats). However, its bulk is subpar in OU even with burns thrown around.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 315-372 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
This pretty much sums up why you can't use Sigilyph on stall. The sheer momentum you lose when Charizard X switches in (and it will, expecting the psycho-shift) pretty much kills your team.
The standard sigi isn't the sigi I'd use to be honest. I was working on a sigi stall before the gen and I had just used WW/CosmicPower/PsychoShift/Roost instead of stored power... Pass burns and phase threats out. I didn't think it was a fantastic set but whatever. If you want to use sigi, use it as a landorus counter and start building it that way. It has nigh perfect typing to take landorus. Breloom, as well.... maybe even wonder skin over magic guard for spore and taunt. All in all, I haven't looked at sigi since the gen's beginning since it competes with latias too much.
Sigilyph is destroyed by Landorus's Knock Off, so it doesn't do any better at countering Lando than Chansey. It also faces stiff competition from Clefable and Reuniclus as a Magic Guard user, so I don't see any real use for it on stall.
Yup. I did the same test and there is nothing Charizard (either) fear from Sigilyph and the prevalence of Charizard really screws it.
I've certainly felt the competition with Latias. In interesting thought on Landorus though...I'll give it a number test sometime.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-131697766
Just wanted to drop this, I've been quietly waiting for a new archtype of stall to release itself, and this is what I've come up with... no EV optimization whatsoever (actually, latias outspeeds jolly dnite but that's it), but Chesnaught has near perfect synergy with Volcanion. I'm kinda wondering if quagsire is needed but for now ignoring extra boosts is nice.
Some notes: AV Volcanion is nigh unstoppable. Holy shit with cleric support, this thing is an absolute menace.
MLatias, in a few tests, has felt balanced. It's a good wall and might rival Venusaur in some areas of bulk (obviously kicks its ass in special) but typing is enough that this thing might stick OU. Although, taking that Draco Meteor.... I was kinda interested to see if it could.
WTF... Chesnaught failed me for once.
Just wanted to drop this, I've been quietly waiting for a new archtype of stall to release itself, and this is what I've come up with... no EV optimization whatsoever (actually, latias outspeeds jolly dnite but that's it), but Chesnaught has near perfect synergy with Volcanion. I'm kinda wondering if quagsire is needed but for now ignoring extra boosts is nice.
Some notes: AV Volcanion is nigh unstoppable. Holy shit with cleric support, this thing is an absolute menace.
MLatias, in a few tests, has felt balanced. It's a good wall and might rival Venusaur in some areas of bulk (obviously kicks its ass in special) but typing is enough that this thing might stick OU. Although, taking that Draco Meteor.... I was kinda interested to see if it could.
WTF... Chesnaught failed me for once.
I remember asking you what you thought about Volcanion for stall a while back. I had planned a team that look really similar to the one you used in that replay. One thing I love about Volcanion is that it provides a nasty core with Chesnaught that nobody wants to switch into. It gives stall a lot of momentum, because people will be switching out either fearing the burn from Steam Eruption or the Leech Seed from Chesnaught.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the nice type synergy Chesnaught and Volcanion have. Forming a 2 poke FWG core is fiiiiiine.
Just going to mass dump a semi-stall team...
So the team is fairly solid with a weakness to mamoswine and one to greninja that sylveon and Aero can generally handle. Mamoswine is an instant loss if freeze dry for quag...
Aero is a neat pokemon that takes about every lando set in existence. 50% from focus blast is the max, ice fang OHKOs. Only issue is, roosting can be dangerous if they EP or Focus Blast again but you have the option to kill them outright. Latias provides a good second check to Pinsir and Lando (which Aero is primary to both) as well as providing first check to charizard Y (which aero is second) and second check to ZardX (Quagsire is first). Spdef Sylveon just handles my special side as fairy covers just about everything. Aero outspeeds Pinsir-mega in base form and noivern in mega (wonder which one I based it on...). Defense is enough to almost always (99%) survive +2 Pinsir after rocks, but you ohko anyways so w/e. He's surprisingly bulky with a great type for Talonflame, Landorus, ZardY, Pinsir-m and in general, the flying types, OHKOing all of them. EQ was added to take care of an EP Heatran issue, as well as providing another check to Bisharp. Originally had been taunt for Deo leads but only worked vs Defense so it was whatever. Ancient power heatran because stone miss on one pokemon is enough to drive you nuts.
Overall, I like this team. It needs a few tweaks but it took me to a finals and semi-finals in some OU room tournaments with 100+ people... both times, I faced Valentine, another OU Driver and a fantastic battler, with other teams and got 3-0'd. I doubt I would've beat him with this team anyways, though. I just never felt this team was good enough to make an RMT off of it but I like the concept and wondered if someone else wanted to do something with it.
So the team is fairly solid with a weakness to mamoswine and one to greninja that sylveon and Aero can generally handle. Mamoswine is an instant loss if freeze dry for quag...
Aero is a neat pokemon that takes about every lando set in existence. 50% from focus blast is the max, ice fang OHKOs. Only issue is, roosting can be dangerous if they EP or Focus Blast again but you have the option to kill them outright. Latias provides a good second check to Pinsir and Lando (which Aero is primary to both) as well as providing first check to charizard Y (which aero is second) and second check to ZardX (Quagsire is first). Spdef Sylveon just handles my special side as fairy covers just about everything. Aero outspeeds Pinsir-mega in base form and noivern in mega (wonder which one I based it on...). Defense is enough to almost always (99%) survive +2 Pinsir after rocks, but you ohko anyways so w/e. He's surprisingly bulky with a great type for Talonflame, Landorus, ZardY, Pinsir-m and in general, the flying types, OHKOing all of them. EQ was added to take care of an EP Heatran issue, as well as providing another check to Bisharp. Originally had been taunt for Deo leads but only worked vs Defense so it was whatever. Ancient power heatran because stone miss on one pokemon is enough to drive you nuts.
Overall, I like this team. It needs a few tweaks but it took me to a finals and semi-finals in some OU room tournaments with 100+ people... both times, I faced Valentine, another OU Driver and a fantastic battler, with other teams and got 3-0'd. I doubt I would've beat him with this team anyways, though. I just never felt this team was good enough to make an RMT off of it but I like the concept and wondered if someone else wanted to do something with it.
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 40 Spd / 248 HP / 140 Def / 80 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Scald
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Roost
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Ancient Power
- Roar
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Foul Play
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 40 Spd / 248 HP / 140 Def / 80 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Scald
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Roost
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Ancient Power
- Roar
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Foul Play
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-128569090
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-128711572
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-128744710
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-129105776
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-129501894
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-130876453
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131117963
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131805175
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132019678
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-128711572
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-128744710
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-129105776
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-129166307
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-129501894
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-130787321
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-130876453
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131117963
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131805175
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132019678
Aero is a pretty terrible Lando check, since my calc came up with:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 212-250 (58.4 - 68.8%)
With Stealth Rocks up (which is likely, considering the Pursuit support Lando is typically run with) it can only come in once and be left at 67% max after the Roost.
Okay, so I just posted about this on the Sableye thread, but it's totally useful here too...
Mega-Sableye is going to be both an asset and a great liability for stall. For starters, it will completely fuck up your team if you run into it (and you thought regular Sableye was a nuisance…) It will bounce back every status/hazard thrown at it, and simply just recover off any damage you try to deal to it. Watch out for it.
On the other side, if you're having trouble with the Deo-Sharp core, this is a one man army against that core. It will punish Deoxys (either form) for trying to use hazards, and when Bisharp rears his ugly (but actually badass) head, he gets burned. Hyper Offense players will find it very aggravating (if they're willing to put up with him) to play around, and I'd be willing to bet a lot will simply rage quit because they now have half their team burned and 1-2-3 (dare I even say 4?) layers of hazards on their field. I can't get over how good of an anti-lead this is against HO.
TL;DR: Mega-Sableye will pretty much shut down your team, but if you hate Hyper Offense, he'll win you games.
Mega-Sableye is going to be both an asset and a great liability for stall. For starters, it will completely fuck up your team if you run into it (and you thought regular Sableye was a nuisance…) It will bounce back every status/hazard thrown at it, and simply just recover off any damage you try to deal to it. Watch out for it.
On the other side, if you're having trouble with the Deo-Sharp core, this is a one man army against that core. It will punish Deoxys (either form) for trying to use hazards, and when Bisharp rears his ugly (but actually badass) head, he gets burned. Hyper Offense players will find it very aggravating (if they're willing to put up with him) to play around, and I'd be willing to bet a lot will simply rage quit because they now have half their team burned and 1-2-3 (dare I even say 4?) layers of hazards on their field. I can't get over how good of an anti-lead this is against HO.
TL;DR: Mega-Sableye will pretty much shut down your team, but if you hate Hyper Offense, he'll win you games.
Lol wut are you assuming a HO player will stay in and spam their hazards against magic bounce sableye just for fun, until they've bounced back 4 layers of hazards ??
Given M-Sableye loses speed and loses prankster, Bisharp (and other physical attackers) can just substitute to block the WoW and wreck with a +2 Knock Off...
It's all a bunch of shitty theorymon until we see Sableye's actual stat spread, and how viable it is to hold off on the Mega to abuse both abilities à la Mega Gyarados, which I think is p likely
Jesus, prankster on the first turn of mega evolving + Magic Bounce? Damn. With some defense base added, this thing could be a fantastic lead as well as a great wall.
If anything, Sylveon+Clefable see their viability on stall go back up and Chansey gets neutralized a bit. It can no longer touch sableye even on switches. However, things like Sludge Bomb and Lava Plume can still damage it so it isn't exactly like Mega Zam/Reuniculus level of bullshit.
I feel like sometime this week I'm going to write up another longer analysis on something... Not sure if it will be a pokemon because apart from Mega Blastoise, I don't think I've come across any mons that are underrated and really worth using. Could be a bit on teambuilding, I don't know.
If anything, Sylveon+Clefable see their viability on stall go back up and Chansey gets neutralized a bit. It can no longer touch sableye even on switches. However, things like Sludge Bomb and Lava Plume can still damage it so it isn't exactly like Mega Zam/Reuniculus level of bullshit.
I feel like sometime this week I'm going to write up another longer analysis on something... Not sure if it will be a pokemon because apart from Mega Blastoise, I don't think I've come across any mons that are underrated and really worth using. Could be a bit on teambuilding, I don't know.
Well my argument hinges on more practical applications, rather than assuming someone will always make the right plays. Fact of the matter still remains--HO hates having to switch, and they hate not having hazards. You're also forgetting there's an entire team to back Sableye up. Practically, things are going to be switching a lot, and sableye will punish switch ins just like chesnaught.
EDIT
You're forgetting that it has Recover to heal off any damaging attacks stall throws at it.
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Please, always assume your opponent is going to make the best play. Assuming your opponent is an idiot does not win tough match-ups.
You are 100% correct here. I should have chosen my words more carefully. What I meant to say is that the opponent is going to be pressured during the entire match just by Sableye's presence. Obviously, they can bait and switch, but assuming he's alive, Deoxys will never lay a single hazard. And Substitute on Bisharp? I've never come across that one, but even behind a sub Bisharp isn't likely to do massive damage to Mega-Sableye with the Defense buff and Knock Off no longer dealing massive damage.
Mega Sableye's biggest asset so far seems to be the really cool tricks it can pull with the change in priority when it becomes Mega. If my memory of priority is right, it can get a Prankster attack off, become Mega, and bounce an attack all in one turn. With this it can play fairly traditional Sableye until it needs to take the stat boost. I imagine its bulk won't be anything special (I'd say best case scenario is something like 50/115/85) but it's enough to work physically...as well as shutting down many forms of Deoxys and Bisharp.
I'm tempted to try one out as a counterlead and semi-reliable burn and Taunt outlet. The big problem for that may be the inability for it to deal with Charizard (either) besides Taunt in the case of Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. That free set up is a bit of a concern.
I'm tempted to try one out as a counterlead and semi-reliable burn and Taunt outlet. The big problem for that may be the inability for it to deal with Charizard (either) besides Taunt in the case of Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. That free set up is a bit of a concern.
Mega latias with hp ice counters landorus-i. 180 spa evs is enough to 1hko.
Mega Latias isn't even released and wouldn't all Mega Lati@s just carry max special attack for as much damage output.
Why run HP Ice when Latias learns Ice Beam? Heck, why run either? You still 2HKO with Draco Meteor and Surf and can even 2HKO with Psyshock after a little prior damage with no SpA investment whatsoever, and it's not like Landorus does much back to Mega Latias anyway.
I don't know if this has been asked before or not. What are people running to counter Alakazam both regular and mega? I can't really run Aegislash because it severely hinders my teams synergy. Anyone know of any other practical mons that would fit the theme of a traditional full stall team?
Chansey? ?_?
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
megazam often runs taunt so idek
- 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
- +1 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
EDIT; And Taunt...
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