Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

[New Breed]

Might as well post my thoughts..

The thing about Shuckle isn't so much that it's outright broken by itself but the support it provides for common offensive Pokemon in the tier is the thing that puts it over the edge. I want to go more in-depth into the fact that Shuckle gets both SR and Web as imo that is one of the main reasons why Sticky Web as a playstyle easily functions atm, allowing for the other 5 slots to be used up with a Doublade + 4 Wallbreakers gives the playstyle such a huge advantage vs everything but Stall. Afro Smash mentioned some good points and quite a few Pokemon that can actually prevent Shuckle from getting up two hazards but unfortunately it's never as simple as "lead this and prevent hazard" and if it was then the playstyle definitely wouldn't be as common or effective as it has been and Shuckle doesn't always have to be lead with lol. Also to the people that are saying "sticky web teams are weak to this so it's not broken etc".. every playstyle is weak to something, Stall struggles with shit like CP Sigilyph and CM Spiritomb, 90% of HO is weak to Sharpedo.. but it doesn't make any of these playstyles any less effective.

Tired af atm so tl;dr Shuckle provides way too much support for other mons, has almost no risk and very high reward and restricts teambuilding to a point where bulky offense is non existent (similar to Froslass in a way with team support + giving stall a hard time). Looking forward to playing the tier once it leaves :]

 

[Afro Smash]

Mew2, if you're so paranoid about Rotom-C Volt Switching Virizion to death, just slap Jolteon in one of the filler spots. That natural Speed is really good for Web teams in case something does happen to the Webs Shuckle sets and it can't get it back up for whatever reason. I get that you want to counter or have a hard check for everything. But that's not how HO works. HO is basically this: Get hazards up. Bring in offensive mon A. Deal as much damage as possible before dying. Bring in next offensive mon. Rinse and repeat. It's simply predicated on dealing as much damage as possible with each offensive threat. I'm pretty sure I said something similar to this in the last NP thread, but as I'm too lazy to go find it, I'm just going to say something close to it.

Right now, you basically have to run Stall, Rhyperior, and / or Xatu to keep Sticky Web from ruining your team. In an ideal metagame, I shouldn't have to run one of those playstyles just to be successful. I should be able to use any playstyle I wish, whether it be HO, Balance, or Stall, and be just as successful with any of those playstyles. If you have to run a very specific threat (CB Rhyperior, Xatu, CB Rampardos if you want to go that far) or specific playstyle (Stall or TR) just to have a chance against the dominant playstyle atm, I'm pretty sure that means something is wrong.

This simply isn't true, I ran a offensive/bulky offensive team to hit reqs and had very little issues with Sticky Web teams, and the reason for this was that 1) I had at least 1 Web immune mon (2 in this case, but 1 was Gligar which doesn't care much for webs anyway)that can outpace majority of common mons on Web teams and 2) As soon as you remove Web, which isn't difficult to do with either Gligar or Golbat (both of which can fit on Offense rather easily thanks to their access to U-Turn to gain momentum after walling) Web offense falls easy prey to the faster mons you find on standard offense since they can outpace at almost every turn.

So basically you build a team dedicated to Sticky Web and put yourself at a big advantage if it's ever removed, or don't build one so reliant on Web but then you're wasting a team slot on Shuckle which could be used for a mon which provides better support for your team.

 

[ss234]

I've played a few matchas (been p busy school wise so prolly not getting reqs), but one mon in particular that works incredibly well is dugtrio. I've been experimenting with running duggy on all kinds of teams, like tspikes stall to eliminate grounded poisons bar scarf drapion and some bulky steels such as registeel. Removing delphox is also very nice, since generally phox is almost impossible to counter. The main archetype I've been trying dugtrio on though is webs. Duggy on webs might seem kinda dumb because it's already fast and doesn't hit hard enough compared to hitmonlee / exploud etc., but on the whole duggy fits very well with some typical webs abusers, namely the strong special nukes such as yanmega, meloetta and exploud. Removing registeel, spdef aromatisse and to an extent weakening cobalion means that these mons generally go to work ez on stall, and you can also remove things such as jolteon and hitmonlee at full health (mach does 85% max, and band eq always kills) which is always handy vs. offense when playing with webs. Yanmega with duggy and webs is my favourite offensive core to use right now, as you can u-turn to dug on the registeel / aromatisse or w/e and, with sticky web, you fair well against offensive teams as well which is why shuckle is so dumb at the moment-you get a leg up on most if not all team archetypes (also, infestation can be ridiculous vs. stall if you get long rolls with it seeing as you can potentially trap something for 4-5 turns, allowing something to set-up or simply kill the trapped mon there and then).

So yeah use dugtrio more, it's an incredibly effective way of setting up win conditions for mons like yanmega, exploud and reuniclus and means that webs doesn't autolose to tspikes stall if you play it right. Of course, dug is still dead dangerous on other archetypes like stall itself and more bulky offense teams, but imo it is most dangerous on webs where you can run adamant and the mons you open up for are scary against offensive teams, not just stall.

 

[Erebyssial]

I get the impression Shuckle's fate has already been decided but I'm just not completely convinced that its as broken and metagame ruining as some people suggest. Sure it's a pretty mindless playstyle and the teams are stale, but this is the case for almost every style of HO out there. I don't see Shuckle web teams that differently to things like weather teams, Trick Room teams and the like - they can be devastating when you're unprepared for them, but they're predictable and crumble when the core strategy of the team gets disrupted or comes across a poor team matchup. It's not impossible to put pressure on Shuckle to prevent it from setting up both hazards straight away and throughout a match, and there are definitely ways to deal with the teams as a whole. Offensive mons like Yanmega, Moltres, Jolteon and Sharpedo can rip through the slower wallbreakers even with web up, scarfers and priority threaten them as with any offensive team, opposing spikestacking teams do well, Toxic Spikes/stall/good defensive cores wear them down, and of course Knock Off spinners and Defog, where Braviary only wishes it was a Bisharp.

On the other hand the ease of spinblocking and lack of good defoggers make it difficult to counter directly, so I understand where people are coming from regarding things like team building imbalances. When running web myself I have usually found it simple to plan out a win if the opposing team has no defogger, although a lot of teams honestly don't look like they made much effort to prepare for it. Even then, the best defoggers aren't perfect. Golbat/Gligar/Togetic rely on their item and common web attackers can take advantage of them, while Skuntank is easy to handle after -1 speed and its Sucker Punch off an average Attack stat isn't the biggest threat. I've been meaning to try out Defog Shiftry also but I imagine it has the same problem as Skuntank. Exploud is probably the biggest problem I have with web teams though, it's a damn ridiculous Pokemon when it gets a hit off and Shuckle only gives it more opportunities to do that.

Basically I feel it's an overrated (yet still very good) playstyle that doesn't cause great harm to the tier, but the imbalances it can bring to team building and the easy spammable playstyle it promotes makes me think twice. It's also not super common on the ladder which makes it hard to test different things thoroughly. I'm going to try and play against as many more web teams as I can, but right now there's enough doubt for me to prefer it not being banned

 

[atomicllamas]

MikeDawg I assume your post was directed at me. I wasn't saying that Moltres and Rotom-C are free wins against Sticky Web, that would be stupid, I was simply pointing out there are many good offensive Pokemon that Sticky Web does struggle with. Which based on the following conversation, was very true. Another reason Pokemon like Moltres and Yanmega do so well vs webs, is that they make putting up rocks a necessity, as SW teams tend to need to get as much damage on them as possible.

As I said I'm not convinced Shuckle is broken, as it really isn't, but I am still undecided on how I will vote, because I think Shuckle is pretty unhealthy for the meta atm.

Also this was /late because I've been afk o.o

 

[Hot N Cold]

Sticky Web Shuckle is more about centralization and team matchup-dependant than pure brokenness, I dont find that this playstyle with Shuckle is broken at all, personally that playstyle I dont like because is not reliable sometimes and have some huge weakness like for example atomicllamas mentioned before Moltres and Rotom-C, specially the former is horrible for Sticky Web teams since 1. Inmunity to Sticky Web and enough fast to outrun pretty much everything on sticky web teams 2. Moltres checks some of the best threats like Doublade and Hitmonlee, finally 3. Moltres checks are hard to fit on Sticky Web teams, the only one that I used was Kabutops (Sword Dance / Aqua Jet / Low Kick / Stone Edge).
Same goes with Specs Rotom-C.

 

[Calloflochie]

Ok, my thoughts on Shuckle. I decided that this suspect I would actually use Sticky Web instead of trying to be the one counterteaming it and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that Sticky Web is such an easy and effective playstyle to win games. I came up against teams that featured dual spinners, spinners + defoggers, Foresight spinners, Magic Bouncers and even things that were trying to OHKO Shuckle right off the bat like random Specs Water-types. There was a common theme tho, and it wasn't that the ladder was using retarded shit to beat SW (well they were but for sake of the argument just hear me out), it was the fact that through all of it, Shuckle still managed to do it's job of setting up Sticky Web and basically neutering every grounded Offensive pokemon in the metagame. Well except based lord Malamar but that thing hits like a wet paper bag anyway. Shuckle, at least for me, ended a game with Sticky Web + SR or at least one out of two of those hazards around 90% of the time. Now, there were times when it did get removed, no worries though, +2 LO Braviary could make that opponent think twice before ever defogging again, usually resulting in the death of 1-2 mons in order to take that down. Spinners? No worries, Doublade is literally the best spinblocker I think I have ever used, only ever being spun on by a Foresight, Haze, Rapid Spin Wartortle which did a hefty 30% damage to Doublade before dying to a +2 Shadow Claw. But, surely this reflects how good Doublade and Braviary are more than it reflects how good Shuckle is? Well no, because without Shuckle, defoggers/Rapid Spinners wouldn't have these types of problems, no archetype would contain Braviary + Doublade + Spike Setter + SR'er because that requires way too much of the team for something no where near as effective. So no, like I said in the last suspect thread, I don't think Shuckle is broken but you know what else isn't broken by itself? Deoxys-Defense. And you know what is being suspected in OU because of it's ability to put a team in such an advantageous position due to it's ability to put up hazards? You got it, Deoxys-Defense. So I don't think there is any argument that Shuckle isn't directly broken because other Pokemon can use Sticky Web (Note: Shuckle is also the only user of both SR and SW outside of Smeargle), I think that Shuckle's ability to set up these hazards, get backed up by the rest of the team and at the end of the day either a) Keep it's hazards up and force the enemy team into a losing position or b) Have it's hazards removed and again force the enemy into a losing position is something that is too strong for the RU Metagame and is definitely going to be the reason i'm going to be voting to ban Shuckle from RU.

Also, if you haven't tried it out yet, make sure you give Life Orb + Work Up Exploud a go because it is probably the best Pokemon you can utilise under SW.

Exploud Set

Exploud @ Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Work Up

And for anyone interested in using the team I did or trying it out w/e

Molk Nudes

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Encore
- Knock Off

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head

Braviary (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Shadow Claw
- Superpower
- Roost

Hitmonlee (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Rapid Spin

Exploud @ Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Work Up

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Shadow Ball

 

[chimpact]

this ends tuesday?

 

[Jaiho]

this ends tuesday?

yes

 

[Max Carvalho]

I can see Leavanny rise.

 

[Explorer]

One Pokemon that I've been having some fun with lately is Zoroark. Although I don't use it on Sticky Web teams (its stats make it a poor fit for such teams), I've used it on non-SW teams with nice success, even inducing rage quits as it picks off 2-3 Pokemon at a time.

Zoroark (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naïve
-Substitute
-Sucker Punch
-Night Daze
-Flamethrower

Substitute is a very powerful tool as virtually all Pokemon learn it and the opponent is less likely to identify the illusion as Zoroark until it's too late. It works as a great lure and can pick off faster threats with Sucker Punch. I use Night Daze as the main STAB (which, alas, reveals that the illusion is Zoroark) for good power and reliability. Finally, Flamethrower is chosen as a coverage move mostly for Escavalier, and it hits other Dark resists common in the tier neutrally (I think the only notable RU-legal Pokemon that resists this combination is Emboar).

I like to disguise Zoroark as one of two things: a wall (especially Alomamola), or a Fighting-type. A set-up sweeper may attempt to use a "wall" as setup fodder, only to die to an unexpected powerful attack. Psychic-types are attracted to Fighting-types such as Hitmonlee, and get pummeled by Night Daze on a predicted switch-in. And if the opponent doesn't get KOed, it will likely die the following turn due to Sucker Punch. A lot of people seem to not expect Zoroark to run both moves.

I chose EVs to maximize Zoroark's speed and power, its greatest assets. They require no further explanation.

Suggested Teammates: Alomamola, Amoonguss, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Delphox, Slowking

 

[cacturne]

One Pokemon that I've been having some fun with lately is Zoroark. Although I don't use it on Sticky Web teams (its stats make it a poor fit for such teams), I've used it on non-SW teams with nice success, even inducing rage quits as it picks off 2-3 Pokemon at a time.

Zoroark (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naïve
-Substitute
-Sucker Punch
-Night Daze
-Flamethrower

Substitute is a very powerful tool as virtually all Pokemon learn it and the opponent is less likely to identify the illusion as Zoroark until it's too late. It works as a great lure and can pick off faster threats with Sucker Punch. I use Night Daze as the main STAB (which, alas, reveals that the illusion is Zoroark) for good power and reliability. Finally, Flamethrower is chosen as a coverage move mostly for Escavalier, and it hits other Dark resists common in the tier neutrally (I think the only notable RU-legal Pokemon that resists this combination is Emboar).

I like to disguise Zoroark as one of two things: a wall (especially Alomamola), or a Fighting-type. A set-up sweeper may attempt to use a "wall" as setup fodder, only to die to an unexpected powerful attack. Psychic-types are attracted to Fighting-types such as Hitmonlee, and get pummeled by Night Daze on a predicted switch-in. And if the opponent doesn't get KOed, it will likely die the following turn due to Sucker Punch. A lot of people seem to not expect Zoroark to run both moves.

I chose EVs to maximize Zoroark's speed and power, its greatest assets. They require no further explanation.

Suggested Teammates: Alomamola, Amoonguss, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Delphox, Slowking

its just a nitpick but Dark Pulse>Night Daze since night daze is an exclusive move that will immediately give you away. also missing makes me feel really .-.

 

[PowerStyler]

Obligatory thoughts on Shuckle:

Ignoring for a second whether or not Shuckle is broken, the fact is it still creates a matchup-dependent metagame, which is never good to have (see: baton pass). Unlike Baton Pass in OU, which lost to random shit like Haze Greninja, Web offense doesn't auto-lose to stall despite the fact that webs are mostly useless against stall teams. On the flipside, nearly every grounded mon gets crippled and removed by the appropriate wallbreaker (fuck Jolteon though). Doesn't help that SubBU Braviary can take advantage of slower teams and proceed to sweep.

tl;dr Web Offense is way too matchup-dependent for the meta, and can semi-reliably beat matchup counters. Personally, I'd rather see a Sticky Web suspect than a Shuckle suspect, but other Sticky Web users don't have rocks, natural bulk, or the ability to run Mental Herb.

Not much else to say that hasn't been said already, but I feel that people are understating the matchup-dependent nature of web offense tbh.

 

[Nova]

I can see Leavanny rise.

I don't really think Leavanny will rise too much if Shuckle does indeed get banned. The main difference between the two is that Shuckle gets Stealth Rock while Leavanny does not. Shuckle also has enough bulk to set up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web. Because Stealth Rock are pretty much required for every team, you're going to need something else on your team to provide the Stealth Rock. With Leavanny+Stealth Rock support+Doublade, that only leaves you with 3 potential offensive sweepers which restricts team building much more than Shuckle does. Shuckle does basically what a Sticky Web user+another Stealth Rock user in one Pokemon, giving you one more critical team slot. Shuckle is such a good support in this regard that it can accomplish the roles of two other Pokemon normally. Also, if you are resorting to two different Pokemon setting up SR+Web, it opens up more possibilities of your opponent getting rid of the hazards since you need to use a turn to switch to get the other hazards up.

 

[Molk]

Ok, as of just now, this RU suspect test is officially over!

Voting thread should be up sometime today, i'll keep this open until voting is over.

 

[Raheim]

no...don't take my bae Shuckle from me :(

 

[skies]

After trying furiously to get REQs (and failing )=) I can say I have enough experience to input my thoughts. Shuckle is beyond broken, and by Shuckle, I don't exactly mean Shuckle, I mean Shuckle's support. So, this sentence was confusing, let me clarify. Shuckle provides Sticky Web, which is a pain in the ass to deal with to pretty much everything and the amount of things hurt badly by it is far too many. Shuckle's support enables a powerful archetype that is very hard to stop. I could go on, but everything's been said. Anyways, I have to agree it's too strong for RU.

 

[termi]

I voted ban. I personally haven't had a lot of trouble vs webs teams even though I have been using teams that are pretty weak to it, but I didn't encounter a lot and usually when I did, I just picked off threats with priority. Haven't encountered a truly great player who was using webs so yeah. However, why I voted ban is because I have been using webs even before the Froslass suspect and then I already realized how easy it was to nab wins with it. Shuckle's ability to set up webs reliably as well as its access to Stealth Rock (meaning you don't have to use Rhyperior or Druddigon on the same team) makes it a very powerful supporter, and while no, webs teams are not unstoppable, I find that right now they have a way too favorable matchup vs most of the tier and most of all, I find them to be too easy to autopilot. With strong wallbreakers like Exploud, all you really need to do once you get webs up is get it in and click your strongest move to watch something die. Because of how good the wallbreakers in this tier are at just spamming a single move without having to worry about not 2HKOing/OHKOing something, having their last flaw removed (disappointing speed) is absolutely dreadful. I also feel like everything that relies too much on team matchup and barely on real skill should be removed from the meta, and therefor Shuckle should be banned. Webs teams will still be very strong, make no mistake, but without a bulky setter that can set webs up more than once during the match and with them needing an extra mon for support (because other webbers don't get SR), they will at least be weakened. If that is enough, I don't knoe yet, but time will tell whether or not Sticky Web deserves a blanket ban.

 

[Turtleye]

Voted ban on Shuckle, simply because, while Shuckle in its own might not be overly broken, it's about the same as Froslass: The support it gives is invaluable and allows for certain ''cookie cutter'' teams, which should never be present in a metagame, and it makes the meta much more matchup-reliant rather than the plays a player makes in-battle.
And ofcourse the reasons Robert Alfons mentioned above me

 

[WhiteQueen]

Shuckle is too good at doing its job. The ladder is absolute aids with it around.

Alomolalala next? That thing does its job (physical wall) great in OU and UU where the physical attackers in those tiers are far more powerful than anything found in RU and lower. "Oh shit Life Orb High Jump Kick from Hitmonlee could 2HKO me. Let me use Protect. No, I'll just switch out and gain my HP back because of Regenarator. Ha ha can't kill me, bitch."

 

[atomicllamas]

Alomolalala next? That thing does its job (physical wall) great in OU and UU where the physical attackers in those tiers are far more powerful than anything found in RU and lower. "Oh shit Life Orb High Jump Kick from Hitmonlee could 2HKO me. Let me use Protect. No, I'll just switch out and gain my HP back because of Regenarator. Ha ha can't kill me, bitch."

-Tsunami- loves you now.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I think it's very hard to say what the next suspect will be just because Sticky Webs really fucked with RU that badly. However, based off of pure theorymon, I'd probably predict Yangmega or Zoroark to be the next suspects.

Yangmega's Specs set with Tinted Lens is just stupidly powerful, and can even get past it's best checks with and Air Slash flinch, which sadly has happened more times than I'd like to admit on the ladder. It's Speed Boost Life Orb set is also deadly if you lack priority on your team, since it's incredible speed and power just allow it to plough through offensive and balanced teams pretty easily.

Zoroark on the other hand can run so many different sets so effectively, and the buff to Knock Off has just made Zoroark that much better. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and even mixed sets are all extremely viable right now, and it can even get past some of it's best checks just by brute force. Zoroark as you can imagine can also always find times to set up due to it's ability Illusion, allowing it to disguise itself as a different Pokemon.

Anyway, didn't mean to talk too much about potential next suspects, but those are just my thoughts n_n

 

[scorpdestroyer]

#freeshuckle

I voted no ban because I didn't feel like Sticky Web was so terribly overpowered. In my experiences Webs always struggled with some of the same threats such as levitating Scarfers / fastmons or just scarf fastmons in general, and like most HO teams, cannot deal with Speed Boost Sharpedo or Yanmega all too well. A lot of people say that Shuckle can always get up web + SR in one mon but I felt that wasn't always true because offensive teams usually have a Pokemon that can 2HKO Shuckle, while stall dgaf anyway. Of course you can say that Shuckle doesn't always have to lead, but then because web teams are naturally slower they often have to get webs up ASAP anyway so they risk losing out if they don't get Web up turn 1. And then when opposing teams have threatening Pokemon like a grounded fast Pokemon + Yanmega or something similar, web teams have to choose between setting up Web to deal with grounded Pokemon or setting up SR to deal with the SR weak mons, which isn't always ideal.

Also, there's the issue on removing Web which Afro Smash talked about. SW teams don't play around Defog as easily as in theory because Shuckle often has to take a hard hit while setting up the SW that its team really needs, meaning it is difficult to get them back up after they get Defogged. At the same time it cannot really wait for the Defogger to die because its teammates can't afford to do so.

So yeah I felt Shuckle was broken during the Froslass meta but I feel differently about it now that more defensive teams are emerging and many teams are adapting to Sticky Web. It's definitely powerful and I can see why people are voting to ban, but I'm not sure it deserves one, hence the no ban vote from me.

 

[termi]

Alomolalala next?

no.

 

[Aladyyn]

Ok so I figured I might as well post my opinions about webs, based on the suspect ladder because why not.
As mentioned many times, Web teams are incredibly simple to build and, to an extent, play. 4-5 mons are set in stone and then you just use filler because it doesn't even matter. I haven't used web teams myself on the suspect ladder, but I've watched quite a number of battles featuring them and it was pretty painful to watch. The fact that spinning against doublade/defogging against braviary is a pretty dumb idea combined with the sheer offensive pressure web teams put on you is game-breaking, as removing webs is really frickin hard.

The teams I met on the suspect ladder can be divided into 3 categories: fat teams, web teams, shit teams. There were some teams made to counter act SW, such as trick room, but I didn't see much of that. Overcentralizing the meta like that is obviously unhealthy and deserving of a ban regardless of whether you think Shuckle is clear-cut "broken". Even if it might not be, the metagame would really appreciate its removal and would become healthier as a result in my opinion. This overcentralization includes the so-called checks to web teams such as MowTom and Moltres. Are we supposed to run one or both of them on every offensive team just so we can actually have an okay matchup against web or what?

It oversimplifies the game for its pilot. Clicking the most powerful move because jack shit can switch into it is not fun for anyone but 7-year old kids.

So I voted ban, but I'm not sure whether Shuckle is broken, it's more about letting the meta develop more freely, it can always be retested when RU reaches a stable point again.



#alomomola4ubers