np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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I already addressed the other points but this one in particular needs highlighting: Aegislash didn't kill Starmie, Volca, Hawlucha, Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Heracross and the rest of the list people keep on repeating to justify a ban, they got killed because of Game Mechanic changes, New abilities, Type reworkings and the advent of a new Priority, bulky offense meta.

Did Aegislash buff Knock Off, change the mechanics of defog, invent the ability Gale Wings, spawn the top reigning speedy bulky Mega Mons with attack/special attack stats that are through the roof? NO. If you want to argue for its ban, look for somewhere else.

This is just ridiculous.
 
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I'm actually very glad about this ban, aegislash centralizes the entire metagame making pokemon like mandibuzz move up and lucario move down. It's an extremely versatile pokemon that doesnt have a guaranteed counter with the likes of mandibuzz beat by sub-toxic or the odd head smash. Overall it's been shaping the metagame with it's every move and even when it first came out with only 1 set being used, it managed to sweep over and over until pokemon from the likes of nu had to come up because of it while old walls were forced to move down.

I certainly agree that it isn't completely broken but it's certainly unhealthy for the metagame and i'll agree with it being banned. Overall Aegislash shaped the entire metagame making pokemon move up or down, without it i'd think gen 6 would be alot like gen 5 with an evened out metagame where a pokemon cannot go ou because of king's shield.
If you don't remember, Gen 5 was the most centralized meta ever. Aegis isn't unhealthy for the meta at all. It is a very good pokemon, but definitely not ban worthy. It has massive weaknesses, and you can set in it's face if you play it right. With numerous checks in Mandibuzz, both Mega-Zards, Bisharp, Lando and Lando-T, etc. And also, we shouldn't ban Aegis just because it makes other Pokemon less viable. That's the point of the tier system, so you can always play with any Pokemon you want to. Mega-Hera is way to slow to be viable, and with T-Flame around it can't do anything. Mega-Gardevoir runs HP Fire usually, or at least it did when it was in UU. Mega-Medi is countered by every ghost type in the game. The point is, you shouldn't ban things because you want other things to be better. You should ban things because they are legitimately broken, which Aegi isn't.
 
If you don't remember, Gen 5 was the most centralized meta ever. Aegis isn't unhealthy for the meta at all. It is a very good pokemon, but definitely not ban worthy. It has massive weaknesses, and you can set in it's face if you play it right. With numerous checks in Mandibuzz, both Mega-Zards, Bisharp, Lando and Lando-T, etc. And also, we shouldn't ban Aegis just because it makes other Pokemon less viable. That's the point of the tier system, so you can always play with any Pokemon you want to. Mega-Hera is way to slow to be viable, and with T-Flame around it can't do anything. Mega-Gardevoir runs HP Fire usually, or at least it did when it was in UU. Mega-Medi is countered by every ghost type in the game. The point is, you shouldn't ban things because you want other things to be better. You should ban things because they are legitimately broken, which Aegi isn't.
Pretty much this, Aegis is a very balanced poke, that gets pretty much 1-2HKO by any of its weaknesses. The combo is King's shield, Shadow Sneak, King's Shield, Shadow Sneak, since you are outspeeded by like half of OU?

I'm pretty much 100% sure this is because of King's Shield.
 
Aegislash runs the tier. 150 SpA Shadow Balls whilst being able to do damage physically and being able to take 30% from Latios LO Draco Meteors. It just has too many perks in its kit to deal with. You can just shove it on any team and it will always perform its role with ease and can run about 5 different viable items (LO, Spooky, Left, Balloon, WP).

Anyone who says King's Shield should be banned or is broken is full of it, Shadow Ball is what makes it broken.
 
I think Aegislash should be banned for multiple reasons combined.

Too good stats:
150 150 defences allows it to take a hit from almost anything, as long as it's not super strong and has a super effective STAB move. 150 150 attack stats allows it to deal a lot of damage to almost anything back. And did I mention you can run max speed jolly to outspeed adamant Bisharp?
"Oh I just realized i'm super weak to Excadrill. Ok, it's not such a big deal. All I have to do is keep Aegislash at full health to kill him with sacred sword + shadow sneak"

Amazing typing / overcenteralizing:
It beats soooooo many pokes just typing-wise, its ridiculous. 9/46 pokemon in ou can't touch it because of its typing. 5 more have to win king's shield prediction games. And those numbers would be a lot higher if people didn't run earthquake on every single thing to take on aegislash. Earthquake Terrakion, mega-Ttar, mega-Pinsir, mega-Herracross, dnite (only partially because of Aegi, but still).

Versatility: Aegislash doesn't look like it has too big of a movepool, but it has what it needs. It has shadow ball to hit hard, shadow sneak for priority, sacred sword for coverage, king's shield to beat physical attackers without earthquake and go back to shield form, iron head / flash cannon to hit faries, sub to be annoying, toxic to wear down walls, swords dance and autotomize for setup, hidden power to beat really good checks, pursuit to trap psychics and ghosts, and hell, even head smash or rock slide to take on mandibuzz and zard. Oh, and did I forget to mention that Aegislash can run four good items: leftovers for recovery, especially useful on sub sets, air balloon to take on ground types, weakness policy to take advantage of its great bulk and try to sweep and life orb to increase its damage output. With those moves and items, aegi has many good sets:

Aegislash @ Air Balloon / Weakness policy / leftovers / life orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword / Flash Cannon / Iron head / Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak / Hidden power fire / Hidden Power Ice

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Substitute
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy / life orb / air baloon / leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

And then there's is the max speed one. Im not sure exactly what it runs so i'm not gonna post it.
 
All right let's correct three wrong assumptions about Aegislash:

1. Aegislash does not have an effective BST of 720. To state the opposite means that Aegi never, ever gets hit in its blade forme. This is outright false, as it does happen on every level of skill. Your opponent could be deliberately letting you do that, or he could lose King's Shield mindgames - the cause is irrelevant.

2. Aegislash's type is not "godly". It's weak to 4 extremely dominant offensive types, the very same Jirachi and Metagross are weak to and the reason they fell in UU. The only advantages over them are Normal and Fighting immunities. Considering Steel/Psychic is now considered a mediocre defensive type, these two immunities are not enough to turn it into "godly". It's a good type but not nearly as good as some people claim.

3. King's Shield mind-games are not 50/50, but they're always in your opponent's favor. KS doesn't block status moves for starters, so any opponent that carries them automatically has the advantage. Besides that, there are situations where Aegislash must either use KS or switch out (example: against SpDef Hippowdown who switched into a predicted Sacred Sword), giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever he wants. In reality KS mindgames are closer to 75/25, where it is the opponent to have the advantage. The metagame has adapted to this move and it's very uncommon to find an opponent who is completely helpless against it.

Been said that I'm strongly against banning Aegislash. I don't find it broken at all (in fact I'd argue it doesn't even deserve its S rank) and I'm confused at why it was even brought up before things like Landorus-I.
Im just choosing this comment because I feel its the best one that has all the points you mentioned. I have not seen one intelligent person in the pro-ban camp that has said aegislash has a BST of 720, we all say pseudo-stats of 720, which is exactly what it has. No question. The point is that for aegislash to get hit in blade form means that he took a hit(he is outsped by damn near everything) in defense form with 150/150 defenses, and then he attacked with his 150/150 attack stats, and now he has a chance to get hit in blade forme, but he doesnt have to king shield to avoid getting hit, he can just switch out. So for at least the first turns he is sent out he definitely has the pseudo-stats of 720. The argument you are giving would be more relevant if he was a sweeper and was trying to solo a whole team, but thats not what he does, (most sets) come in sponge a hit in defense form and then fire off an attack and either finish the kill with shadow sneak, or switch out. Ill get to the king shield thing later.

I agree that aegislashs type may not be "godly" that has been exaggerated imo. But My problem with his typing is that unlike most powerful defensive mons in the tier (ie: heatran, ferrorthorn, scizor) he doesnt have a move that is 4x SE against him, which is a problem when he has 150/150 defenses. Thats my only issue with it really, and I think everyone could agree with that at least because not having any moves be x4 SE doesnt make him broken, but it is just something that adds on to the argument.

King shield mind games are the definition of 50/50, aegislash usually doesnt give a shit about being burned, he cant be toxiced, and sometimes he benefits from paralysis(barring hax obviosuly) and all the pokemon that would burn him besides rotom-w, he would just switch out because he has no reason to stay in. In your hippowdon example you say he MUST switch out or king shield, I know Im going to get flack for this but Ive used shuca berry aegislash effectively. You fire off a shadow ball as hippo switches in, he goes for rocks because he knows you HAVE to king shield so you hit him with another shadow ball, then you either outspeed and kill or sponge up an earthquake and kill. Perhaps not the best example, but just shows that aegislash can literally be designed to take on ANY pokemon in the meta.

The metagame has adapted to this move and it's very uncommon to find an opponent who is completely helpless against it.
So you are saying the entire meta has changed just because of ONE of aegislashes moves? And that every team needs a way to deal with aegislash and kings shield? Sounds like you are helping out us pro-ban guys :D
 
Going to post my opinions pre and post-suspect laddering.

Pre-Suspect ladder thoughts:

Off the top of my head, I wouldn't say Aegi deserves to go to Ubers. While it's obviously one of the best Pokemon in the meta, if not the best one, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's broken. I would say it is a centralizing poke, but not moreso than Zard-X or Talonflame (when birdspam was a thing). It's viability lies in it's good typing, excellent stats/ability and mixed capability: It can check, revenge kill, pivot and wall. However unlike Deoxys, it doesn't enable certain playstyles to dominate. Unlike Mega-Lucario, it actually has checks and counters. And unlike Mega-Gengar, it doesn't singlehandedly ruin the viability of a playstyle. King's shield is good, but it's easily played around, and most of the moves that would be used on Aegislash aren't even contact moves (Special fire moves, Earthquake/power, Sucker punch, Bisharp's knock off). Aegislash has a thousand checks, and can be dealt with a lot easier than the aforementioned pokes. Finally, using Aegislash is not easymode (like every other poke sent to Ubers basically) as it's quite prediction-reliant. Aegislash has no reliable recovery so if you miss a prediction, you can get punished enough to limit further switching. At this stage I'm going to vote no ban, but I'll have an open mind during the suspect test.

Current thoughts TLDR:
- Doesn't make/break playstyles
- Has many, many checks.
- If it gets dented, no reliable recovery.
- Requires prediction to be effective.
- Not too overcentralising
Thinking No Ban at this stage (but open-minded, convince away)
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
Offensive pivots don't exist? Mate, have you ever heard of Pawniard, Durant, Swampert, Torterra? Offensive pivots do exist, they can be rare in some tiers but they do exist.
By sure if this is a joke, ad if it's not, durat has piss poor special bulk and can't switch into anything, even in the lower tiers.
 
Hmm... since there's a lot of disagreement, I want to address the effectiveness of Aegislash in different matchups.
Aegislash on HO vs. HO:
This is probably where Aegislash is of standard effectiveness. Can OHKO or 2HKO anything on the opponent's team with the right prediction, but can easily be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd back. In these cases, the games are short and Aegislash doesn't get to launch many attacks, so in this case it seems like it's not ubers.

Aegislash on Bulky Offense, Semi-Stall, or Stall vs. HO
This is when I think Aegislash can be very effective. Since teams with bulk usually run counters with reliable recovery to most threats, this allows Aegislash to come in many times and launch shadow balls which 2HKO most of the other team. Ubers?

Aegislash on HO / Offense vs. Semi-Stall / Stall
Interestingly enough, this thing is a bitch to stall with its immunity to toxic and resistances to common attacks run on stall teams. Especially with hazards up and the chance for an spD drop, it's killer. It's similar to the previous case where Aegislash, although this time on the offensive team, can come in many times and launch a crapton of shadow balls. Ubers?

Aegislash on Semi-Stall / Stall vs. Semi-Stall / Stall
Same thing really, stall really doesn't like it much. Ubers?

I'm really not sure if this is accurate, so I'd like to hear some responses from people (:
 
and here i thought it was the combination of all its attributes that made it broken, rather than a 80 base power attack
That is what I said... What I implied after is that if people suggest that King's Shield (which is ridiculous) is the problem then there should be the the same argument for Shadow Ball.
 

Jukain

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Alright, I think I need to explain what a 50/50 is. A 50/50 is when risk = reward. Not all '50/50s' described are exactly 50/50 but close enough (say 60/40) to be about the same. In this type of situation, there is NO better play. You guess, and if you guess right you win, but if you guess wrong you lose. You can attempt to guess based on some bs patterns but the opponent can switch their choice at any time randomly and still have the same chance of winning that play. When I make a double switch, it is usually because I can accurately anticipate my opponent's play and have analyzed the risk/reward of the situation where my opponent is almost forced to make a certain move and I can punish that. I'm not 100% certain they'll make that move and could lose out because they anticipate the double switch, but that's why it's important to play your game and force your opponent into situations where you're in control. I am making an educated guess as to what my opponent will do and reacting accordingly. On a 50/50 play, you are making an uneducated guess. Hopefully I cleared this up.

Now to relate this to Aegislash. Oh, and if you're going to compare the 50/50s it causes to Mega Mawile, this is another Pokemon I and plenty of others want gone as well except it isn't as stupid as Aegislash. Aegislash is unique in walling capacity AND offensive presence/versatility. No other Pokemon has this combination. King's Shield forces opposing Pokemon into a situation where they either get annihilated by its attacks or anticipate the King's Shield correctly and place the Aegislash player in a bad position. There is rarely, especially in late-game situations, a better play. And if you're going to tell me that Aegislash doesn't create excessive 50/50s, then you're telling me that you don't play OU at a level above lower- to middle-ladder even because basically every top player I've ever talked to sees these damn 50/50s. 'XY OU is a tier of 50/50s' is something I never stop hearing from tourney players to random people on the Deoxys suspect ladder that I won or lost against based on 50/50s. I don't want the shitfest that so many battles currently are and neither should you unless you're in the camp of my next point.

It seems to me that many people are grasping for straws to keep Aegislash in OU. Like cherry picking at an effective 720 BST; of course it doesn't have it all at one time but that's not the point. Keeping a broken Pokemon to "tame the meta" is flawed as well. It makes way more sense to remove the problem and then deal with the remnants. The best plan of action is to search for a perfect metagame. That might not happen but we should get as damn close as we can. Less bans is not inherently good, that's something you learn when you end BW with a tier barely less shitty then it began. Bans like this foster diversity and a skillful metagame. How is that not a more desirable result? That's objectively better. If you are against an Aegislash ban, you are against these characteristics.
 
I'm going to post some pre laddering thoughts as well:
-Aegi has reliable checks in both Zards, Lando I, etc.
-Aegi is centralising, but because so many Pokes ran EQ when it showed they kept EQ for Aegi.
-Pokemon do not run EQ for Aegi: They run it for coverage and it was a very common move before Aegi and if Aegi is banned they will keep EQ.
-Like wise I find no reason to believe that banning Aegi will increase the relevance of UU psychics with the relevance of Knock Off spam.
-At the current I'm anti ban however this may change due to ladder experience.

While I'm not quite expecting to make reqs (I lead a busy life) I just want my thoughts down so that in two weeks time I can see whats changed.
 
I'm going to post some pre laddering thoughts as well:
-Aegi has reliable checks in both Zards, Lando I, etc.
-Aegi is centralising, but because so many Pokes ran EQ when it showed they kept EQ for Aegi.
-Pokemon do not run EQ for Aegi: They run it for coverage and it was a very common move before Aegi and if Aegi is banned they will keep EQ.
-Like wise I find no reason to believe that banning Aegi will increase the relevance of UU psychics with the relevance of Knock Off spam.
-At the current I'm anti ban however this may change due to ladder experience.

While I'm not quite expecting to make reqs (I lead a busy life) I just want my thoughts down so that in two weeks time I can see whats changed.
Correction:if aegi leaves, mega Pinsir will run CC
 

Jukain

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I'm going to post some pre laddering thoughts as well:
-Aegi has reliable checks in both Zards, Lando I, etc.
-Aegi is centralising, but because so many Pokes ran EQ when it showed they kept EQ for Aegi.
-Pokemon do not run EQ for Aegi: They run it for coverage and it was a very common move before Aegi and if Aegi is banned they will keep EQ.
-Like wise I find no reason to believe that banning Aegi will increase the relevance of UU psychics with the relevance of Knock Off spam.
-At the current I'm anti ban however this may change due to ladder experience.

While I'm not quite expecting to make reqs (I lead a busy life) I just want my thoughts down so that in two weeks time I can see whats changed.
1) Dragonite will run Fire Punch (unless specifically for Tran)
2) Mega Pinsir will run Close Combat
3) Terrakion will run SD or reliable STAB
4) Lucario will run Ice Punch
5) Mega Tyranitar will run Fire Punch (or at least have a solid option to), and normal Scarftar will have room for Superpower or Ice Beam or Fire Blast without losing Pursuit.

UU Psychics aren't just limited by Aegislash...they're fodder for crap like Mega Mawile and Bisharp and other issues in this meta that give them problems. They weren't OU last gen and they won't be this gen if Aegi is banned.

Zard is a reliable check? lol. Zard X has a fucking KS 50/50 and doesn't like switching in. Zard Y can beat it but is prone to prior damage, doesn't like its sun turns being worn out, and can't be relied on with the possibility of SR being up on any given Aegislash switch-in. Lando is a reliable check when it can actually switch in decently and Aegislash doesn't have an Air Balloon.
 
I'm against an Aegislash ban because of the slippery slope its opponents keep on posting here, "if we ban it just imagine the beautiful and diverse metagame we will have! Our Starmie and MegaHeras and Medichams, so beautiful ;_;". I wonder what will happen if this thing gets banned, none of the above happens and then they bandwagon onto the next excellent but still perfectly OU pokemon, Talonflame to achieve this "dream".

I would be perfectly fine with an Aegislash ban if the concerned pokemon allowed one playstyle to reign supreme such that the argument became "lets save other playstyles", instead of "lets blame the wrong pokemon in order to set free pokemon A and B". The OU council really needs to post here and remind people why we have these bans in the first place.

Fact is:

1) Need for 100% Health: Aegislash needs it's health 100% for it to be able to abuse it's King Shield effectively as it has no reliable recovery, and in which case it's 50/50 for the opponent AND the Aegislash user. If it has taken a hit, then KS and its Shield form won't be able to save it any power STAB attacks. If used wrongly it can invite pursuit trappers, checks and counters or even worse set up users.

2) Common weaknesses: Fire, Ground, Dark and Ghost, what do they all have in common? They are the most used offensive types, and if the Aegislash user does not take effort to remove its checks and counters, switch in carefully and prevent the user from setting up, then Aegislash might as well be dead even at full health. SD Pinsir, DD CharX, DD Gyarados, Sand Rush Excadrill and a plethora of other pokemon prevent an Aegislash switch in.

3) No matter what set it runs, you still would be killing it the same way, unlike Deo-S where sending the wrong pokemon against the wrong set will mean your destruction.

4) Its checks and counters are neither niche, specific lower tier mons or uncommon.

5) It needs to guarantee the kill in Blade form otherwise it will be destroyed.

6) It takes skill to use and effective team building to cover up it's weaknesses.


Edit:
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edit2: Offensive pokemon run coverage moves based on the current meta threats. In BW2 Keldeo ran HP Bug or Ghost to deal with Celebi/Jellicent and the Lati@s, now it's running Scald for switch ins and HP Flying to dent Mega Venusaur on the switch. Why are we treating EQ differently here? Who doesn't want to run Icy Wind on Keldeo or something else in the moveslot of Scald?
 
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Id like to adress that 50/50 argument here because its somewhat flawed in my opinion.

The game is full of "50/50" situations, they are a part of its nature, if you dislike them i suggest playing another game. Is Chomp going to set up rocks or will he attack, will Ferro use Protect or predict a switch and Leech Seed etc stuff like this. Now someone on the earlier pages mentioned that situations like this arent real 50/50s because here is a risk/reward situation involved. Thats certainly true and its the reason why i wouldnt call these situations 50/50s at all. However, the same is true for Aegislash.

Lets take up Jukain 's example here with Sub Kyurem B. Aegi is in Bladeform after killing something and Kyurem comes in. This is far more than just some 50/50 guess work for both players. If Aegi goes for KS and Kyub subs he is screwed and will be forced to switch out next turn, if he goes for an attack and runs into EP he is outright dead, if he attacks the sub he has to make the same difficult decision again next turn. Its a no win situation for Aegi, no halfway decent player is going to stay in in a situation like that. For the Kyub player on the other hand is just a question of win or win more. If he kills Aegi he wins, if he uses sub while Aegi KS he wins more.

The same is true for most situations where Aegi is involved. When he is in blade form the Aegi user is always hard pressed because Aegis life is on the line while even in the best case the opponent only risks to be forced to switch out to something that can handle Aegi better. For example Aegi vs SD Weavile. Aegi has a very high risk when he is attacking while Weavile only risks an attack drop and therefor having to switch to something else, something any decent player should do anyway because its the best decision he can make. Going for SD here is a typical high risk high reward decision that can be made but isnt neccesary, its the same kind of decision you face when you want to SD with your Lucario in front of Heatran or wanna spin with Exca in front of the same. In both of these situations there is clearly a risk/reward component involved and depending on each players risk preferences there is a "best" decision for each of them, its by no means a coin flip.

The only situation i can think of where it actually comes down to 50/50 is in the late game where both players are out of options. And even thats extremely situational because Aegi will most likely be damaged so that an -2 attack might still be able to finish him of and it can be avoided by the opponent by simply keeping the right Pokemon alive if you see that the opponent is preserving his Aegislash. If you think that situations like that are a reason to ban something, please ban Sucker Punch as well, and while you are at it, ban T-wave and remove accuracy because i have won and lost far more games to full para/misses in such endgame situations than to unfortunate 50/50s against Aegislash.

The next thing is that situations like the one with Weavile, meaning those where the non Aegi player actually faces some risks, arent even that common. They dont occure against most physical attackers because most of them run EQ or other non contact moves anyway and they also dont happen against special moves. Against non contact moves KS is nothing more than a simple Protect with the dowside of not helping against status, another risk Aegi has to face quite often.

And while we are talking about EQ, since when is EQ an suboptimal move choice? Did i miss something? Its been one of the best and most common coverage moves for generations, long before Aegi came out as it is one of 3 ways to deal with steel types, given the limited access to physical fire typ moves basicly the only alternative are fighting type attacks that cant hurt Aegi anyway and dont matter against KS. For most of the things that use it, EQ is one of the best options they have, no matter if Aegi is present or not.
Dragonite gets walled by Heatran without EQ and with EQ Skarm walls him, a simple case of "pick your counter" here. For Mega Pinsir EQ is a way to deal with one of his best checks, Rotom-W while Close Combat does what? 5% more than Return against Skarm who still walls you to hell and back.
Medicham can opt to run fire punch which is basicly just for Aegi but again, thats something you have everywhere. Running a certain move to deal with a specific threat, there is actually a concept called "lures" that revolves around this. And its not like Medicham is forced to do that, he can just leave Aegi to teammates as it is usually done with counters/checks. Given that fire punch triggers KS i would even go as far as to say that running Fire Punch on Cham is suboptimal.
 
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I think with Aegislash banned, we can finally see a lot more Mega Pokemon in the Metagame, especially Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham; amongst other Pokemon too!
Its typing is just too good defensively and offensively, and he King's Shield 50/50s are just a mess. It can fit on almost any type of team due to its DeoD/DeoN stats and diverse movepoll.

And no, running Mandibuzz or Bisharp is not acceptable
Very excited about this suspect; I hope the community makes the most logical decision, because this monster just needs to go right into Ubers where he rightfully belongs! =D
Barely started reading this and stumbled upon this nonsensical, selfish post. The reason why you dont use MegaCross and MegaGardy is because of Aegislash? Good lord. I hope youre only joking man. These Megas have sky high attack and special attack stats respectively and access to moves that can take big chunks out of Aegislash. On the standard Taunt MegaGardy, I have found HP Ground MUCH more useful than Focus Blast. One could also easily make room for Knock Off on MegaCross and still maintain stellar offensive coverage.

I for one have wholeheartedly agreed with the OU bans up to this point, but if you think the previous bans have hurt the community's image what do you think a ban to Aegislash would do? I honestly think a ban to Aegislash would be akin to banning Ferrothorn last Gen. A Pokemon with a great niche that is somewhat hard to deal with should not get banned. Aegi's role in OU is a very healthy one and it is not in the least bit overcentralizing.
 
banning aegislash, the best metagame centralizer would be an awful idea tbh, seriously, noobish threaths as are terrakion(!)/megagarde/megacham/diggersby/others would sweep entire teams easily without him and the metagame would become like bw, i'll vote "NO BAN" because i want this game to be as competitive as possible
 
Fact is:

1) Need for 100% Health: Aegislash needs it's health 100% for it to be able to abuse it's King Shield effectively, and in which case it's 50/50 for the opponent AND the Aegislash user. If it has taken a hit, then KS and its Shield form won't be able to save it any power STAB attacks. If used wrongly it can invite pursuit trappers, checks and counters or even worse set up users.
So what if Aegislash dies? Its killer is at -2 Atk so you can freely bring in your setup sweeper. Even if Aegislash is dead the -2 attack is huge. Also saying 100% is overdoing it, it can take hits even at 50% HP.
2) Common weaknesses: Fire, Ground, Dark and Ghost, what do they all have in common? They are the most used offensive types, and if the Aegislash user does not take effort to remove its checks and counters, switch in carefully and prevent the user from setting up, then Aegislash might as well be dead even at full health. SD Pinsir, DD CharX, DD Gyarados, Sand Rush Excadrill and a plethora of other pokemon prevent an Aegislash switch in.
It also resists 9 types and is immune to 3. Aegislash switches into plenty of things. And it's not like the threats you mentioned switch into Aegislash either, so it goes both ways really.

3) No matter what set it runs, you still would be killing it the same way, unlike Deo-S where sending the wrong pokemon against the wrong set will mean your destruction.
Sending in hippowdon or mandibuzz or zapdos on subtoxic means your destruction.
Sending in bisharp or tyranitar on sacred sword means your destruction.

4) Its checks and counters are neither niche, specific lower tier mons or uncommon.
true.

5) It needs to guarantee the kill in Blade form otherwise it will be destroyed.
Considering it underspeeds most of the meta, this is false.

6) It takes skill to use and effective team building to cover up it's weaknesses.
LOL. Shadow ball spam is far from difficult to use. And no, it does not require a team to cover its weaknesses. It covers other member's weaknesses, that's why it's on so many teams.
 
It seems to me that many people are grasping for straws to keep Aegislash in OU. Like cherry picking at an effective 720 BST; of course it doesn't have it all at one time but that's not the point. Keeping a broken Pokemon to "tame the meta" is flawed as well. It makes way more sense to remove the problem and then deal with the remnants. The best plan of action is to search for a perfect metagame. That might not happen but we should get as damn close as we can. Less bans is not inherently good, that's something you learn when you end BW with a tier barely less shitty then it began. Bans like this foster diversity and a skillful metagame. How is that not a more desirable result? That's objectively better. If you are against an Aegislash ban, you are against these characteristics.
It highlights two different ways of looking at suspect tests. I look at them like each one could potentially be the last ban OU will have for a while, and consider it individual of future bans. But if you look at it like each suspect test is a small step in a long road to a perfect meta, then Aegislash should be banned, and there's a pretty hefty list of followers.

But end of last gen we had Keldeo running around, and even considering how overcentralizing THAT was along with rain in general (Politoed + Ferrothorn + Keldeo + 3 others) it didn't get banned. So how can anyone really know if the "best possible meta" is 1 ban away or 10? If Aegislash gets the boot, Imo that will pretty much open the door to whole new plethora of bans. I think the overall reduction of power in the tier is good, but you really have to pick the finishing point with care.
 
Oh shit, you guys really are suspecting the ol'smogsword! lol

Anyway, Aegislash is one the many mon making the OU metagame extremely "ugh... why the fuck do I even bother? Yawn!" feeling, he is not absolutely flawless but almost perfect in a sense. I personally find him very newbie friendly considering you can't go wrong with sets for him and he can be built to fit your every need teambuilding wise. Is there any reason to use anything besides him? doublade No not really, especially not with ghost being stupidly powerful offensively and steel being a great defensive typing, he has the best of both worlds along with coverage to boot. So overall does he deserve a ban, yes because despite having weaknesses, he can often use one of his weaknesses; being the dependance on KS to his advantage for example: You can predict him to use KS but get smacked by a shadow ball while setting up or switching into it and then possibly follow up with a shadow sneak depending how much shadow ball did. (terrible example but very possible.) Literally every counter he could have can't switch in safely without risking a 50/50 because he has the power and the coverage to take them out leaving him with only checks which all risk a 50/50 or will only succeed in scaring him out. Again I know hes not the only one that does this but seriously, every match is pretty much a guessing game vs it and it being naturally slow does works to his advantage. So BAN for the sake of making the meta more versatile, a little less boring, and pretty much less of a guess wrong and you die hue hue.

Sorry if my post is still lacking after I spent 5 mins after eating fixing it, but I am tired and have places to go. GL to those getting req and good bye Ol'caliburn, Saber won't miss you much.
 
For those of you undecided users, there are tons of arguments here that are perfectly logical that show why Aegis should be banned. Don't be fooled; make the smart decision
Are posts like this allowed? This is a very one-sided and biased viewpoint. "Don't be fooled; make the smart decision" should never be said in a discussion like this, as it sways undecided to your side by making them feel stupid otherwise.
 

-gizmo-

Smogon's Kingpin
I believe these Pokemon are being brought up because not having Aegislash raises their viability on team, since Aegislash is on most teams tbh, including a lot of mine.
Her across for example, only ran eq for aegislash. There pretty much no other reason, and without aegi it would be rid of its 4mss. I'm pretty neutral on the entire suspect test, and I'm not saying this is a reason to ban aegi, I was just providing an example as to why people are bringing up these Pokemon. Anyways, just my 2 cents and of course not knocking your opinion.
 
I know I don't post too much, but I'm a frequent lurker, decent battler (was 3rd on the ladder at one point but not been on Showdown in a while), and I use Aegislash a fair amount, so I'd like to try and present my thoughts on the matter. For now it'll just be basic thoughts but I will talk calcs later on, especially once I've started laddering.

For starters, there's no denying Aegislash is one of the most potent threats in the meta. It can get around its counters depending on the set, it has a brilliant pseudo BST and a brutal STAB that wrecks a ton of the metagame. That being said, I feel it has drawbacks that prevent it from being uber, and I don't think the fact it affects the OU viability of some Pokemon is a decent argument against it. This is true for any ban on any Pokemon that is a dominant metagame threat, and just because Aegislash is the top of OU, does not necessarily mean it's too good for it.

Steel/Ghost typing would have been incredible if this was gen V, but the steel nerf leaves Aegislash threatened by some of the most common attacking types in the metagame: ground, fire, dark and ghost. Earthquake isn't phased by King's Shield and is everywhere, the majority of decent teams run fire moves, and Knock Off is fantastic this generation and cripples Aegislash big time. Whilst it has a plethora of resistances, not all of them are useful and some aren't remotely common (think grass etc).

It does often create 50/50 scenarios but it relies on them due to very poor speed and the vulnerability of Blade Forme. The burden I would share is shared by both Aegislash user and the opponent, as predicting incorrectly can lead to a set up that is extremely costly. Granted the defenses of Shield Forme Aegislash mitigate misplays to an extent but in a metagame with powerhouses that frequently run moves that Aegislash is threatened by, it can definitely be checked efficiently, though counters are admittedly few, and often people can create teams with something that threatens Aegislash without necessarily taking it into consideration (although any decent player will think of Aegislash when teambuilding). 720 BST is scary, but it's 720 assuming the player predicts perfectly. There are plenty of Pokemon that are threatening when the player predicts perfectly, and it's incorrect to assume the Aegislash user can always make moves without having to worry about consequences. Letting a decent mon set up for free costs games, and Aegislash will sometimes be responsible for creating that scenario, as it relies on King's Shield far too much to maintain bulk. Granted some sets don't use King Shield and rely on punishing switches, but in my experience this can be played around by luring effectively.

Aegislash is incredibly easy to fit onto a team without much thought because it's so good at what it does, but the same is true of gen V Rotom-W in regards to being centralizing and leading to certain mons being under/overused more than their capability. Centralization I feel again doesn't constitute a ban because it will create a slippery slope argument that will always be the case.

I can see why Aegislash deserves a suspect but it does have flaws that prevent it from doing its job. It has proven to be manageable in the current meta and I feel it's absurd to be testing it before the likes of Mega Charizard X/Y, with drastic counters and team preview being the only chance of prediction, and dire consequences for misplaying.
 
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