np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Lil YoshiXD]

The problem is not so much the types, it's the megas. Gardevoir and Medicham are only sitting at B+ rank because Aegislash exists, is almost a counter to the former and a counter to the later. Mega Pinsir would love to use Close Combar or Stone Edge and get rid of those pesky birds, but can't because Aegislash walls it, so it needs to run EQ. Mega Heracross would like to use another 5-hit move, but also has to EQ.

Still I have to wonder are those wall breakers really that much better then current high rank wall breakers MegaMawile and Landorous?

Talonflame (rr heck, Bisharp and Mega Gyarados for Psychics). But hey I'm guessing that after people realize that a Aegislash will do nil for the viability of these pokemons, the Smogon Berd will be next in line.

Sure they will still have counters, but having their main counter out of the way makes life so much easier.
Fun Calcs:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 169-200 (56.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 234-276 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 155-183 (52 - 61.4%)

Aegis Switchs into Mega Heracross receives no damage (par EQ). Talonflame switches into Heracross it dies with SR
Aegis swithes into Medicham- Medicham Loses half its health. Talonflame switches into Medicham Its nearly ohko even w/o sr.
Aegis switches into Mega Gard it barely receivs any damage. Talonflame switches into Gard it dies with SR

Talonflame is not going to stop these things best it can do is come in and revenge them, it can't even really switch into resisted attacks.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Talonflame (rr heck, Bisharp and Mega Gyarados for Psychics). But hey I'm guessing that after people realize that a Aegislash will do nil for the viability of these pokemons, the Smogon Berd will be next in line.

Difference between Talonflame and Aegislash is that, for one, Aegislash doesn't have much of an issue switching in to psychics and some fighting types (okay not most of them, pretty much just Mega Medicham.) Talonflame is really frail, I'm not even going to run calcs but I'm pretty sure it's OHKOed by Lati@s' Draco Meteor, takes a ton from Mega Garde's Psyshock and same with Alakazam. Slowbro counters Talonflame, actually. And Mega Medicham nearly OHKOs Talonflame with resisted HJK and OHKOs with Zen Headbutt, while Mega Heracross OHKOs with Rock Blast so it has trouble switching in to that too. Oh, and Bisharp and Mega Dos eat it with Focus Blast.

Talonflame is a revenge killer only. That's all it basically does. It also has a number of things that reliably counter it. Aegislash is a counter to those mons.

But people need to stop using "it'll make X more viable," and people need to stop nitpicking those arguments (no one with a straight face would seriously fucking say "ban Talonflame it can RK Medicham," there are other issues with Aegislash that Talon doesn't have,) cause:

A. Both of Latias and Latios have very solid usage (especially when you consider that they're the same pokemon with slight differences) despite having almost zero capacity to not get screwed by Aegislash. This shows that good Psychics with exceptional qualities can be good in OU, even if they're hard countered/pursuit trapped by Aegislash.

B. Hawlucha is shit and won't be good with Aegislash gone. It has a large number of problems, namely low bulk and not enough power to break through many commons members of stall teams.

C. Mega Heracross has both of Earthquake and Knock Off

D. Why is it bad that Mega Garde and Cham have a reliable counter? Cause both of them are OU and get respectable usage anyway, it's not like they're being rendered totally unviable by Aegislash.

Both are utterly insane when you think about it. Garde has one, singular good counter in Aegislash. Mega Scizor can counter but it hates burns a lot more than Aegislash. Everything else is a check at best; if they try to switch in to Psyshock/Focus Blast/WAIL OF THE BANSHEE they lose. Even Chansey needs to be at really high health to switch in to Psyshock, and it outright loses to any set that has Calm Mind or Taunt.

Cham is a bit less ridiculous cause it has reliable counters in bulky Psychics/Ghosts not weak to whatever elemental punches it usually carries (Slowbro, Mew, Cresselia, Sableye is pretty much it) but it's still pretty ridiculous cause it just 2HKOs or just OHKOs anything that doesn't resist HJK, has STAB Zen Headbutt to deal with things that usually wall fighting types (Poison and Fairy types) and then elemental punches to fill in the gaps. Even Mew needs a bit of Def investment to avoid a 2HKO after SR. It just hits hard as shit.

Aegislash is the only mon that reliably counters Garde and the best way of handling Cham. Why do you think Bisharp is a top partner for both of them? Cause any defensive team relying on Aegislash to take care of them is screwed if it gets pursuit trapped. I know, I know, "don't check broken shit with broken shit" but I'm not convinced any of Aegis/Cham/Garde are broken. Point is that getting rid of a counter to Cham/Garde, while making them more viable (as it would with any pokemon if you remove a prominent counter,) is not necessarily a good thing, cause both are stronk as living hell and are completely usable in OU.

Also can people stop pointing out obvious shit like "well but it's weak to erfquake."

 

[Rajikaru]

Look at my previous posts it talks about how pokemon can afford different coverage moves like mega pinsir or afford a boosting move like mega Hera this on top of the rise of powerful stall breakers like mega garde and mega medi means stall will non existant each mega now has a smaller list of counters as they can afford greater diversity in their best sets they can run. This means stall is now forced to carry specific mon to deal all of the new buffed mega evos and limits stall a lot in general as I said see my previous posts to further delve into the issues banning aegi has on the metagame

Unrelated, but run on sentences are a pain, please consider comma usage.

Second, that's what's going to happen when a Pokemon that's super powerful is removed from the equation, just like previous powerful pokemon, how specific moves and team members were used just to counter them, suddenly that slot is open for more options. You know what banning an overpowerful pokemon won't do? It won't keep the meta completely the same.

 

[gnr61]

Urgh. The OU community really needs to decide what it wants in a metagame. I'm seeing a LOT of stuff (as we always see) about centralization and a static metagame, which is frustrating considering in that VR thread regarding the tiering process badgeholders were very elegantly championing the extremely static (and low viability-count) early generations. In theory smogon agrees that a functional and competitive metagame with 20 pokemon who are basically forced into certain coping sets and strategies is preferable to a disfunctional or luck-based one with fifty highly customizable mons. And yet there are people here of high clout who are suggesting Aegislash is unhealthy for the tier because it 'restricts teambuilding,' 'centralizes,' or makes certain playstyles and compositions too strong. Banning Deoxys-D (which I agree with) because it makes cookie-cutter teams and inhibits defensive playstyles is a BAD reason to do so, and complaints about Aegislash's limiting effects on other pokemon and playstyles take the same flawed approach and are tantamount to wanting wanting Talonflame gone to ease Trick Room's viability.

I'll come back later to touch on the 'it can get around its counters' crap (since when does not having perfect counters mean broken lmao) when I have more time, but I'm very disappointed in this side of the argument to ban so far.

Earthquake, Fire Blast, noncontact moves and Dark/Ghost coverage are not fucking Perish Song. We do not need to ban a pokemon who is SO AMAZING that Dragonite has to use Earthquake avoid an attack drop when facing it. Pro-ban side needs to PROVE that Aegislash is either too powerful for the metagame (to the extent that methods of beating it are hard to incorporate on teams and/or badly disrupt functionality in other matchups) or adds a luck component so unfair and impossible to combat that it has to be removed for OU play to remain competitive. [I would also argue for consideration of what collateral benefits Aegislash provides in the metagame, re checking otherwise broken components etc and the state of the metagame in its absence, but for some reason that is technically a nonstandard consideration.] We are miles from doing any of that.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I'm going to ignore the misinformed personal attacks and utter disregard of what I'm trying to say in your last post due to personal bias and just respond to this post, which is your core argument. You cannot get better at a 50/50. That literally defies logic, you don't have a clue if you're telling me this. 50/50 = 50% of guessing right and 50% of guessing wrong. You cannot get better at a (basically) blind guess like this. In terms of centralization: almost every Pokemon that uses EQ for coverage besides Mega Gyarados uses it because of Aegislash. Dragonite wouldn't primarily be using EQ without Aegislash around, it would use another option (Fire Punch primarily, Superpower maybe to still hit Heatran + hit Ferrothorn). Terrakion would not use EQ. Mega Tyranitar would not need EQ, and it certainly doesn't use it for Heatran. Scarftar wouldn't run EQ. Mega Heracross wouldn't run EQ. Heatran is nowhere near responsible for the prominence of Ground coverage in this meta. Literally one thing I can think of runs EQ for Heatran and that's a lure Latios. You also can't deny that Bisharp is so much better because of Aegislash's presence. Being able to deal with the best Pokemon in the tier is one of the biggest reasons to justify its use. Heatran's ability to check one Aegislash makes it much better. Mandibuzz's largest selling point outside of Defog is beating Aegislash. Pokemon that are Dark/Fire typing that can handle Aegislash becomes much much more valuable because of its presence because it's hard to kill Aegislash otherwise outside of Grounds which are just checks besides SpD Hippowdon, and it definitely has a direct impact on their usage. Pokemon that beat Aegislash, even to a degree, are favored in OU, while Pokemon that don't are generally less favored on the whole. Re: other sets, just because they aren't as common doesn't make them lures. I consider other Aegislash sets to do different things for my team, not to lure and kill specific threats. That's a bonus.

Before I end this post I have to address the fact that you literally just called me out. I've already written paragraphs upon paragraphs of arguments in response to in some cases arguments that I have literally been questioned about as to why I try. Just because every point in a tl;dr isn't tl;dr doesn't mean I'm relying on reputation at all. I don't have some air or reputation at least in my mind; I just want this thing banned. And if you really the BP debacle was my fault then you're just insulting for nothing because that's blatantly false.

Thank you for actually responding to some of my points. I'm not trying to attack you personally, but I do disagree with your points, and while I have nothing but respect for you as a player and strategist, I don't think you back up your arguments well enough and I don't think you understand what that shiny mentor label does for you. Your posts regarding the inherent uncompetitive nature of BP teams led to a major shift in the focus of that discussion, and even if you wanted a stricter ban, you indirectly made it very difficult to post anything other than actions against bp as a whole, and it was unrealistic to expect to bring the required super majority to support a ban of less than 3 bpers.

Here's a list of OU pokemon that have EQ listed as a standard move that would stop using it if Aegislash was banned: Pinsir and Terrakion. Gyarados (Mold Breaker), Charizard (Heatran), and Dragonite (Cuz what Dnite wants to lower it's atk and defense?) are 3 very good examples of how the meta wouldn't even blink after an Aegislash ban. That's obviously an extreme view, but so is saying Aegislash has had that big of an affect on the meta. EQ is one of, if not the most used move in the history of pokemon, it's not like Aegislash made it suddenly popular.

And I still think you're giving the KS prediction war (I'm not calling it 50/50, that just isn't what it is) too much credit. The dreaded instance of risking it all, guess right you win, guess wrong you lose is rare and blown out of proportion. The OU pokemon that are significantly threatened by one of its moves, lack effective non-contact moves, and would actually stay in is limited to Conkeldurr (knock off or bluff and drain punch?) and Talonflame (Flare Blitz or Roost/Bulk Up?). Yes other pokemon would be more viable if they didn't have to deal with Slash, but diversity is a terrible argument and not a reason to ban something.

Note: I acknowledge that if it's holding a balloon, then there's a much bigger problem, but taking that into full account is pretty difficult considering Slash's main nature as a "take a hit and hit back harder" mon that needs to actively protect its balloon.

I'm still undecided on the effectiveness of its alternate sets, particularly the sub/toxic set. I created my set (as far as I know, I was the first to suggest it way back in November) specifically to beat pokes that would normally beat offensive sets, and if it's proven to be A) effective enough at that job and B) common enough to be a legitimate problem, you'll have my vote. The problem is that Deosharp made every Aegislash and it's mother run a spinblocking set, so it easily fails criteria B, and the meta hasn't been given enough time to settle after the last ban.

 

[shadowyoshi64]

Why ban three or four or how many others when aegis keeps them in check we do not have to ban happy. My biggest fear of aegi is precedence it sets for the banning of other pokes due to if currently power capping the meta. Right now the meta has a ton of viable playstyles and options balance stall offense are all viable options right now and I fear banning aegi will tip this out of balance.

It really is too early to say there will be broken things that weren't already broken if Aegislash gets banned. Wasn't there a saying that you check/counter broken mon A with broken mon B, it doesn't make Broken mon A any less broken. (I might have gotten that wrong, but you should get the jist of it). If Aegislash is the only mon keeping so many things from being broken, then I think those mons are broken to begin with. You shouldn't need Aegislash to win a battle.

 

[TheTraininator]

I'm just going to copy/paste what I said to my friend:

"The thing about Aegislash is that yes its counters do vary by set, but unlike Kangaskhan and Lucario it has to run 5 or so sets to beat all of its counters. Plus, unlike the other two, it is quite easy to check, as it has a very low speed tier and a dependence on King's Shield to be able to switch out of blade forme. The final nail in the coffin is that most of Aegislash's checks and counters are Pokemon like Bisharp and Mandibuzz that fit very well in the OU meta, unlike Kanga where people had to run weird shit like Sableye and Cofagrigus to beat. He is very overcentralizing and very good, but I don't think he qualifies as broken."

I should also mention that unlike gen 4 Salamence, it is possible to come back once you learn Aegislash's set. Salamence made every match a coinflip; if you guess the right set, you may be ok, but if you guess the wrong set, you might as well give up. Aegislash's low speed tier and KS dependance mean that you can come in and threaten it out after it kills something and never have to worry about being caught off guard for the rest of the match.

I can definitely see why people believe him to be broken, but I am not yet convinced.

 

[Turducken64]

Unrelated, but run on sentences are a pain, please consider comma usage.

Second, that's what's going to happen when a Pokemon that's super powerful is removed from the equation, just like previous powerful pokemon, how specific moves and team members were used just to counter them, suddenly that slot is open for more options. You know what banning an overpowerful pokemon won't do? It won't keep the meta completely the same.

Sorry I'm on my phone commas and punctuation is hard.
Aegis isn't broken and it keeps potentially more stuff from being broken he is a power cap. If you remove the power cap in the meta (which is aegi) mega Cham and Hera r going to have a field day.Next aegi is not broken he is good but can be handled if you prepare for it and u should prepare for all good mons. Removing aegi will change the meta and I think it will be for the worse. I'm sorry if you do not agree with me but without aegi Hera, Cham, garde, and pinsir mean stall is a thing of the past.

It really is too early to say there will be broken things that weren't already broken if Aegislash gets banned. Wasn't there a saying that you check/counter broken mon A with broken mon B, it doesn't make Broken mon A any less broken. (I might have gotten that wrong, but you should get the jist of it). If Aegislash is the only mon keeping so many things from being broken, then I think those mons are broken to begin with. You shouldn't need Aegislash to win a battle.

Aegi is the one counter to mega garde and is what is one of the central pokes in the current meta by removing it other stuff becomes broken as now pinsir and Hera and whatever can run better move sets as eq is not needed. Mega cham now has a field day the number one answer is missing to countering him. Removing aegi makes these mons broken and reduces meta diversity as these new threats will now have to be removed. Pretty much removing aegi causes stuff to be broken.

 

[Orga777]

Are people really considering banning Aegislash? Really? The Pokemon is damn good, but this isn't Mega Kanga here. There are way too many ways to deal with a Pokemon that has major Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Ground weaknesses, all very popular attacking moves that has no real shortage of play at all. Aegislash is good at taking one major hit, and finishing off weakened opponents with Shadow Sneak, and once it shows off one move that isn't King's Shield, its unpredictability goes way down from there, and the opposing player should be able to handle the situation better. I really don't see the ban being needed here. Might as well ban everything that is hard to deal with at that point. :/

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Are people really considering banning Aegislash? Really? The Pokemon is damn good, but this isn't Mega Kanga here. There are way too many ways to deal with a Pokemon that has major Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Ground weaknesses, all very popular attacking moves that has no real shortage of play at all. Aegislash is good at taking one major hit, and finishing off weakened opponents with Shadow Sneak, and once it shows off one move that isn't King's Shield, its unpredictability goes way down from there, and the opposing player should be able to handle the situation better. I really don't see the ban being needed here. Might as well ban everything that is hard to deal with at that point. :/

Mega Kanga is not the baseline for stuff that's too good for OU. She's a few miles above that baseline.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Are people really considering banning Aegislash? Really? The Pokemon is damn good, but this isn't Mega Kanga here. There are way too many ways to deal with a Pokemon that has major Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Ground weaknesses, all very popular attacking moves that has no real shortage of play at all. Aegislash is good at taking one major hit, and finishing off weakened opponents with Shadow Sneak, and once it shows off one move that isn't King's Shield, its unpredictability goes way down from there, and the opposing player should be able to handle the situation better. I really don't see the ban being needed here. Might as well ban everything that is hard to deal with at that point. :/

Of course it isn't Mega Kanga. Kanga was quickbanned because it was ridiculous while Aegislash is being suspected because we're reaching the point where we draw the line and define what "broken" means and what we want from this meta. Pretty much what the post above me said, but I'll add that you're not considering its diverse sets nearly enough.

 

[ARandomNoob]

Whether you like it or not, Aegi just isn't broken period. It's way too easy to beat. I'm not even worried about the megas that I can flash cannon or Flying Spam into oblivion that are being held back by the Aegi I'm not doing all that with. I'm worried about making sure you all know which mons Game Freak was actually stupid to make die to their inherent brokenness as a Pokmon, not even I relation to the meta. MegaCham walled? Her fault for relying on Hi jump kick so much. Don't out all your eggs in one basket. Mega Garde? Her fault for staying in on something that can hit two of its weaknesses with STAB. Why would you do that with ANY mon? Mega Heracross? It's meant to use 5 hit moves, why you're trying to use it against something that resist or walls all of them is beyond me. Mega Pinsir? He would be running EQ to deal with Rocks and Fires anyway, hush up.

 

[Turducken64]

Not to mention Talonflame, but that's not at all a good argument to keep it here.

I think it is when one of the major reasons to ban aegi is to increase the overall diversity of the ou meta imagine several mega mons being banned to ubers that we all used and enjoyed I love crushing souls with powerful wallbreakers like mega Hera, mega pinsir, and mega Cham and it will be a sad day if they leave due to the new aegislashless meta.
Right now, I'm top ten on the suspect ladder (not that means much) with a mega Cham team as I freely spam hjk and zen headbutt without fear as the only ghost being used is gengar. Sure talonflame can revenge kill most of these megas but do we really want to have to carry talonflame to handle these threats that we're kept in check by aegis. I really do not wanna see anymore bird spam than there already is. This further limits teambuilding as now every team has to run talonflame to revenge kill a mega pinsir or Hera or let in run through their team. This greatly destroys metagame diversity which is one of the arguments for banning aegi.

 

[Srn]

Uh, what are you doing? We know Mega Luke is way more powerful and probably more versatile than Aegislash, that's why it was almost unanimously banned.

But to continue the comparison: Mega Luke ran exactly one item, Lucarionite of course. Aegislash can run Leftovers, Spell Tag/Spooky Plate, Life Orb, Choice Band, Choice Specs, Air Ballon, Shuca Berry, Colbur Berry, and Weakness Policy all pretty well. It also has defensive capabilities way beyond Luke, and can Pursuit trap, unlike Luke.

Dude. Are you seriously going to argue that choice items on aegislash are "pretty well." Please tell me you aren't
Weakness Policy is also garbage in aegislash, and colbur is pretty pointless imo as you can just outspeed your main target for colbur anyway, bisharp. Shuca and everything else is pretty legit, but seriously? Choice items????

Besides, unless these items are radically different (Choice Band vs Choice Specs) they don't really add much to a pokemon's versatility.

Neither Aegislash or Mega Luke had a universal safe switch in by your own account here. Mega Luke had a number of reliable-ish checks, like Aegislash, but nothing could counter every set it could run, just like Aegislash. Mandibuzz and Chesnaught both lose to SubToxic and Flash Cannon sets, while Bisharp can't switch in to Sacred Sword (or check sets with Colbur Berry. Like I know it's a super rare item and most have never seen it used but Aegislash is an amazingly good user of weakness berries.)

Ok, so you switch in mandibuzz into aegislash. If you run some sp. def, the worst that could happen is you gettin toxic'd. Not too bad.
Meanwhile, if you switch your defensive lando-t into mega lucario and get smacked by a flash cannon, you're dead.
See the difference?

Also, bisharp can hold a focus sash, its uncommon but its a thing.

Maybe, if you're comparing to one the most hilariously broken things to ever grace OU.

I'm literally just using mega lucario as an example due to its versatility stop nitpicking the irrelevant details jesus christ. I could've just as easily used fucking infernape as an example.

Difference between Talonflame and Aegislash is that, for one, Aegislash doesn't have much of an issue switching in to psychics and some fighting types (okay not most of them, pretty much just Mega Medicham.) Talonflame is really frail, I'm not even going to run calcs but I'm pretty sure it's OHKOed by Lati@s' Draco Meteor, takes a ton from Mega Garde's Psyshock and same with Alakazam. Slowbro counters Talonflame, actually. And Mega Medicham nearly OHKOs Talonflame with resisted HJK and OHKOs with Zen Headbutt, while Mega Heracross OHKOs with Rock Blast so it has trouble switching in to that too. Oh, and Bisharp and Mega Dos eat it with Focus Blast.

Talonflame is a revenge killer only. That's all it basically does. It also has a number of things that reliably counter it. Aegislash is a counter to those mons.

Wow you make it seem like the only talonflame set in existence is CB or something lmao, there's a beautiful fucking set called Bulk up+Taunt talonflame, (the rest is roost+brave bird) and its a beautiful moddafucking set. Talonflame with full sp. def could live a draco and easily roost that off. Seriously, give this set a go, you'll be surprised by how hardy talonflame is. I Was definitely caught off guard when this baby could set up on landorus and char-y.

C. Mega Heracross has both of Earthquake and Knock Off

Mega Heracross never uses knock off, and it never should.

Both are utterly insane when you think about it. Garde has one, singular good counter in Aegislash. Mega Scizor can counter but it hates burns a lot more than Aegislash. Everything else is a check at best; if they try to switch in to Psyshock/Focus Blast/WAIL OF THE BANSHEE they lose. Even Chansey needs to be at really high health to switch in to Psyshock, and it outright loses to any set that has Calm Mind or Taunt.

Even if megazor hates burns, the fact is that it can still just set SD on mega gardevoir and negate that, and then go from there. Besides, jirachi also stands out as a solid check to it, taking pretty much anything it wants to do. Not to mention that the mere presence of a steel type (not named lucario/cobalion) is enough to make mega gardevoir rely on the shaky focus blast, which is pretty significant pressure. After all, it's not as if aegislash can just shake away the burn either, its the most crippling status for it.

Aegislash is the only mon that reliably counters Garde and the best way of handling Cham. Why do you think Bisharp is a top partner for both of them? Cause any defensive team relying on Aegislash to take care of them is screwed if it gets pursuit trapped. I know, I know, "don't check broken shit with broken shit" but I'm not convinced any of Aegis/Cham/Garde are broken. Point is that getting rid of a counter to Cham/Garde, while making them more viable (as it would with any pokemon if you remove a prominent counter,) is not necessarily a good thing, cause both are stronk as living hell and are completely usable in OU.

Also can people stop pointing out obvious shit like "well but it's weak to erfquake."

Aegislash is not the best way of handling cham, it can't even switch into fire punch, and a Sub mega cham can force aegis into 50/50s with KS. Substitute does not change this 50/50 game much either. And dont' try to argue that Sub mega cham is irrelevant or rare; in CTC's sticky webs team, the mega cham set he uses is Sub/Fire Punch/HJK/zen headbutt, and its probably the best set for cham (cuz its priority is balls).
There are other unique pokemon one can use in order to combat mega garde (zor, rachi) and cham (slowbro, mew, cress), and some of these even beat bisharp 1v1.

 

[Machi]

I think it is when one of the major reasons to ban aegi is to increase the overall diversity of the ou meta imagine several mega mons being banned to ubers that we all used and enjoyed I love crushing souls with powerful wallbreakers like mega Hera, mega pinsir, and mega Cham and it will be a sad day if they leave due to the new aegislashless meta.
Right now, I'm top ten on the suspect ladder (not that means much) with a mega Cham team as I freely spam hjk and zen headbutt without fear as the only ghost being used is gengar. Sure talonflame can revenge kill most of these megas but do we really want to have to carry talonflame to handle these threats that we're kept in check by aegis. I really do not wanna see anymore bird spam than there already is. This further limits teambuilding as now every team has to run talonflame to revenge kill a mega pinsir or Hera or let in run through their team. This greatly destroys metagame diversity which is one of the arguments for banning aegi.

The mons you mentioned have other issues that hold them back aside from Talonflame, one of which being the mediocre speed tier they're placed at. That don't exactly allow them to run free reign in OU as they managed to do so in UU. To be honest this is just one of things I see wrong about just blaming Aegis for their lack of usage when many of them have much more crippling flaws that aren't simply the result of Aegis, e.g. MGard and her lack of bulk and poor Def stat added with only 100 base speed. Aegis definitely takes advantage of their weaknesses but that isn't to say they aren't abused by other OU mons in their own ways.

IMO I still wouldn't use MGarde even if Aegis disappeared, even if I adore her design, simply because her flaws really hold her back for me in team building for OU. I would still end up using something with more utility like MManetric or a more reliable wall breaker and clean up like MMawile. That I think it is silly for some people to think that a cascade of bans is likely to occur when these mons have really obvious and exploitable flaws.

 

[QuarkX]

Sew I know theres so much complaining about aegis, but one of the (few) problems id like to mention is the fact the aegis can be easily outplayed. Use KS? Well the MPinsir guessed right and how has 2x atk:(. Predicting KS, while easier said than done is a gud way 2 beat da slash. Another problem with slash is that in blade fourm, slash has paper phin defenses, making it a easy KO for even weak attackers which requires the user to 1.KS and risk free rocks or setup or 2. try to attack(hard due to low speed)

Well anyways thats one point ive seen in my eggsperience:)

 

[Turducken64]

The mons you mentioned have other issues that hold them back aside from Talonflame, one of which being the mediocre speed tier they're placed at. That don't exactly allow them to run free reign in OU as they managed to do so in UU. To be honest this is just one of things I see wrong about just blaming Aegis for their lack of usage when many of them have much more crippling flaws that aren't simply the result of Aegis, e.g. MGard and her lack of bulk and poor Def stat added with only 100 base speed. Aegis definitely takes advantage of their weaknesses but that isn't to say they aren't abused by other OU mons in their own ways.

IMO I still wouldn't use MGarde even if Aegis disappeared, even if I adore her design, simply because her flaws really hold her back for me in team building for OU. I would still end up using something with more utility like MManetric or a more reliable wall breaker and clean up like MMawile.

I'm mainly just saying is aegis one of the things holding them back tbh but their are a few others I will give you that. The mere prescence of aegi in a meta changes certain mons sets like pinsir and heracross and removing aegi can cause these pokes to have field days with their respective jobs. Cham and garde get a bit better especially since the only other Cham counter is Slowbro who loses if it runs thunder punch. All I'm saying is aegi acts as a powercap to prevent other stuff from destroying the balance of the meta. I see without aegi, stall losing a lot of viability as pinsir with close combat and the buff to Cham, garde and Hera, will make it tough on stall and semi stall which are very viable with aegis around and I fear won't be with him gone.

Next can we stop saying the things buffed when aegis is gone get revenge killed by talonflame. A lot of the meta gets RKed by talonflame and that is what team support is for. Bird spam is still a thing in ou and everyone is prepared and their mother is prepared for it. Saying talonflame can RK something does not make it any less broken.

 

[Machi]

I'm mainly just saying is aegis one of the things holding them back tbh but their are a few others I will give you that. The mere prescence of aegi in a meta changes certain mons sets like pinsir and heracross and removing aegi can cause these pokes to have field days with their respective jobs. Cham and garde get a bit better especially since the only other Cham counter is Slowbro who loses if it runs thunder punch. All I'm saying is aegi acts as a powercap to prevent other stuff from destroying the balance of the meta. I see without aegi, stall losing a lot of viability as pinsir with close combat and the buff to Cham, garde and Hera, will make it tough on stall and semi stall which are very viable with aegis around and I fear won't be with him gone.

Next can we stop saying the things buffed when aegis is gone get revenge killed by talonflame. A lot of the meta gets RKed by talonflame and that is what team support is for. Bird spam is still a thing in ou and everyone is prepared and their mother is prepared for it. Saying talonflame can RK something does not make it any less broken.

Well you don't need to be outright countered in order to be held back as has been mentioned in many suspect tests it could just as well be that they have a lot of viable checks. And in the case of MCham he still has very bad defenses added with lack of good resistances. I just find that the mons mentioned have a lot of viable checks because of their existing stat spreads as well as weaknesses that are very prevalent in the current metagame.

 

[ARandomNoob]

Why are people claiming that Aegi holds back MegaPinsir? It really doesn't. MPinsor needs to run EQ to counter the Rocks as fires that want to kill it, and if Aegi comes out, it can apply a load of pressure with it. Aegi thwarted by EQ omnipresence, once again.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Why are people claiming that Aegi holds back MegaPinsir? It really doesn't. MPinsor needs to run EQ to counter the Rocks as fires that want to kill it, and if Aegi comes out, it can apply a load of pressure with it. Aegi thwarted by EQ omnipresence, once again.

Because it could otherwise run Closecombat and be able to beat Skarmory and RotomW and still beat rocks and steels.

 

[TFL]

Hmm.. I've used Mega Pinsir plenty and have never used Earthquake for anything, but Aegislash. And it's hardly thwarted by Earthquake omnipresence, it's still the best mon in OU regardless. Plus, the only reason a bunch of mons are running EQ for coverage is because they're too scared to give Aegislash a free switch in.

 

[ARandomNoob]

>close combat to beat Skarmory/SmogonLaundromat

There are no words.
None. At. All.

Why lower your defenses trying to beat up something that will eat your hit anyway most days, and then cripple you with status or hazards?

EQ does a MUCH better job at taking care of Rocks and Fires, and stuff like a rotom W and Skarmory should not be seeing your MegaPinsir save for it running away from it.

 

[Geopolitics]

Ok so here is a potentially long post about Aegi. Know that I in no way mean to come off as hostile towards others, it's just me getting in too deep.

So to me there are a few leading causes/reasons to why Aegi should be banned. I will do my best to cover these bases and provide additional reason to keep Aegi in the OU tier.

In order to do this we need to establish common definitions of some key terms that will ultimately determine the future of Aegislash.


-----------WORDAGE AND DEFINITIONS-----------

Interpretation 1 - Overcentralization

Noun

"1. to draw to or gather about a center
2. to bring under one control, especially in government: to centralize budgeting in one agency." - Dictionary.com

Verb

"3. to come together at or to form a center" - Dictionary.com

Interp: These relate to all of the game/activity depending on ONE thing alone. So, in order for Aegislash to be considered 'over centralizing', EVERY team would need to carry a DISTINCT and UNIQUE check to Aegislash as opposed to a broader answer (i.e I carry EQ for Steel, Fire, and Rock types, not just Aegi).

Reasons to prefer this definition:

1. The first is education. I'm the first (I think) on this thread to offer standardized definitions that offer a good perspective for either side. This creates a learning environment that allows us as Pokemon players in the Smogon metagame to delve into the deeper issues and ultimately result in a better metagame.

2. Specific wording - my definitions refer to a center as opposed to multiple. This allows us to see if there are multiple things that are hurting the metagame or if it's just Aegislash.

3. Gives both sides ground - These definitions allow both sides ground to state their arguments as opposed to being partial towards the side of not banning Aegislash.


Interpretation 2 - Broken


"2. reduced to fragments; fragmented.
3. ruptured; torn; fractured.
4. not functioning properly; out of working order.
5. Meteorology . (of sky cover) being more than half, but not totally, covered by clouds. Compare scattered( def 4 ) .
6. changing direction abruptly: The fox ran in a broken line." - Dictionary.com

Interp: Frankly only definition #4 is relevant to the matter right now. Dictionary.com interprets broken to be out of working order (in this case, we will assume that Aegislash creates a metagame that isn't in working order and becomes unhealthy). So, for Aegislash to be considered "broken" it MUST be the SOLE reason for an unhealthy metagame. If you fight for a scenario where Aegislash is not the only thing broken then it creates unstable debate and you should be able to defend the worlds in which ALL other things that could be interpreted "broken" must be banned.

Reasons to prefer this definition:

1. Education - This interp challenges the creative minds to fit Aegi into a category while fighting by standard definitions. This keep arguments on point and relevant to the case at hand.

2. Ground - Both sides can interp whether the meta can work w/o Aegi or not.

3. Holds sides to their respective args - Each side must defend their respective world (World X = Aegi Banned, World Y = Aegi Legal) and the consequences of it. I make a claim in my interp that if Aegi is broken then banning it MUST fix the meta because to should be the major problem.





-----------ANSWERING ARGUMENTS FOR BANNING AEGI-----------


Argument #1 - "It has essentially base 720 stats"

Yeah it does, that's basic math. While it does have the ability to change on the fly, it is still far from broken. It can't have all the stats at once, meaning the player has to trade offense for defense at any given moment. Plus, with the predicability of Aegislash, you can manipulate the stat changes to set up on Aegislash. While 720 BST looks intimidating, it's far from unbeatable. What people who make this argument occasionally forget is that just because you can make these changes on the fly doesn't mean Aegi isn't prone to W-o-W, RK'ing, and other common weaknesses such as Ground and Fire.


Argument #2 - "It is over centralizing"

If Aegi was TRULY over centralizing and restricting to team building then EVERY team would need to pack a distinct check to Aegi. The fact is, teams carry broader check that are used for other mons barring Aegi. Aegi doesn't require specific checks. Aegi is prone to EQ (super common) and Lava Plume/Flamethrower/Fire Blast (super common). People who attack Aegi for being over centralizing fail to see the true definition of Overcentralizing. (see definition and interp above. also note reasons to prefer)


Argument #3 - "No true checks"

Offensive LO variant

Hide

Aegislash @ Life Orb

Hide

Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Gentle Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield

Checks: SpDef Heatran (common), Zard Y (common), Bisharp (common), Landorus-i (common), Landorus-T (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common)
Counters: tbh very few but a plethora of counters that are common (EQ lol) make up for it. (Plus, other mons have no "true" counters either because of set variation)

SD

Hide

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

Checks:Landorus-i (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common)
Counters: Landorus-T (common), Zard Y (common), Aegislash

SubToxic

Hide

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball

Checks: Zard Y (common), Landorus-i (common), Landorus-T (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common), Mega Pinsir (common)
Counters: Poison Types (namely MegaSaur), Heatran (common), Bisharp (common), Clefable (fairly common), Excadrill (common), SD Sciz/MSciz (common)


Argument #4 - "Too many moves"

Ok :P This is basically an arg to why is shouldn't be banned. 4MSS kills Aegi and prevents it from accessing this reason to ban it period.

Also, many mons can run more than 4 moves. Latios w/ EQ for Heatran? Yep, it's viable. So is Dragon Pulse, Draco, Surf, Tbolt, Psychic, Psyshock, HP Fire, and Trick. But it doesn't deserve a ban.



-----------REASONS TO KEEP AEGI-----------


Reason #1 - Prevents Power Creep

Calling it now more megas WILL BE BANNED if Aegi goes. Aegi helps to stop Mega Maw and Mega Tar now, and those could float to Ubers quickly. Those are far from broken.

Reason #2 - Good but not Broken

I've already said Aegi is not broken thru Checks and that stuff. He needs to stay around because he's good, not broken.




That's all I've got for now. Enjoy laddering

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Dude. Are you seriously going to argue that choice items on aegislash are "pretty well." Please tell me you aren't
Weakness Policy is also garbage in aegislash, and colbur is pretty pointless imo as you can just outspeed your main target for colbur anyway, bisharp. Shuca and everything else is pretty legit, but seriously? Choice items????

Besides, unless these items are radically different (Choice Band vs Choice Specs) they don't really add much to a pokemon's versatility.

Choice items are not very good but they're not terrible, either. Same with WP, which is probably the worst of its viable items. "Pretty well" is subjective, yeah?

Also you need to run maximum speed investment to outspeed Bisharp; it can be preferable to just use colbur berry.

Ok, so you switch in mandibuzz into aegislash. If you run some sp. def, the worst that could happen is you gettin toxic'd. Not too bad.
Meanwhile, if you switch your defensive lando-t into mega lucario and get smacked by a flash cannon, you're dead.
See the difference?

You are, again, comparing Aegislash to probably the third or fourth most broken thing to have ever been in OU.

I'm literally just using mega lucario as an example due to its versatility stop nitpicking the irrelevant details jesus christ. I could've just as easily used fucking infernape as an example.

Your entire argument is "it's not as versatile as this one really versatile thing so it's not actually that versatile." Aegislash can run like a dozen moves and items viably, it has a minimum of four good distinct sets, it has exceptional offensive and defensive capabilities, it can pursuit trap things, it functions great as a wall breaker and a staller, it can pick off weakened things with priority... I mean just how is it not extremely versatile?

Wow you make it seem like the only talonflame set in existence is CB or something lmao, there's a beautiful fucking set called Bulk up+Taunt talonflame, (the rest is roost+brave bird) and its a beautiful moddafucking set. Talonflame with full sp. def could live a draco and easily roost that off. Seriously, give this set a go, you'll be surprised by how hardy talonflame is. I Was definitely caught off guard when this baby could set up on landorus and char-y

In relation to Cham/Garde/etc. it can usually only revenge kill them. That's what I meant. It has a lot of trouble switching in if you're using the band set, and the bulk up set won't beat all of them either. I'm very well aware of Bulk Up Talonflame, don't be so condescending.

Even if megazor hates burns, the fact is that it can still just set SD on mega gardevoir and negate that, and then go from there. Besides, jirachi also stands out as a solid check to it, taking pretty much anything it wants to do. Not to mention that the mere presence of a steel type (not named lucario/cobalion) is enough to make mega gardevoir rely on the shaky focus blast, which is pretty significant pressure. After all, it's not as if aegislash can just shake away the burn either, its the most crippling status for it

A burned Scizor is a lot easier to deal with than a healthy one. Yes you can't keep Garde in it but it means pretty much anything not weak to its STABs can switch in to it and win. Scizor is crippled if it's burned, Aegislash still has the option of Shadow Ball.

Also Jirachi is complete ass. I mean you really might as well bring up Metagross as a Garde counter.

Aegislash is not the best way of handling cham, it can't even switch into fire punch, and a Sub mega cham can force aegis into 50/50s with KS. Substitute does not change this 50/50 game much either. And dont' try to argue that Sub mega cham is irrelevant or rare; in CTC's sticky webs team, the mega cham set he uses is Sub/Fire Punch/HJK/zen headbutt, and its probably the best set for cham (cuz its priority is balls).
There are other unique pokemon one can use in order to combat mega garde (zor, rachi) and cham (slowbro, mew, cress), and some of these even beat bisharp 1v1.

It's the best way in that it is the easiest to fit on a team, the most viable by and far of Cham/Garde's counters and it works pretty consistently. Furthermore its presence deters the use of HJK no matter what pokemon you have out.

And yes I've used Sub Medicham, I'm pretty sure it's widely considered one of its best sets, not sure why you'd think I'd deny it's good.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok so here is a potentially long post about Aegi. Know that I in no way mean to come off as hostile towards others, it's just me getting in too deep.

So to me there are a few leading causes/reasons to why Aegi should be banned. I will do my best to cover these bases and provide additional reason to keep Aegi in the OU tier.

In order to do this we need to establish common definitions of some key terms that will ultimately determine the future of Aegislash.

-----------WORDAGE AND DEFINITIONS-----------

Interpretation 1 - Overcentralization
Noun

"1. to draw to or gather about a center
2. to bring under one control, especially in government: to centralize budgeting in one agency." - Dictionary.com

Verb

"3. to come together at or to form a center" - Dictionary.com

Interp: These relate to all of the game/activity depending on ONE thing alone. So, in order for Aegislash to be considered 'over centralizing', EVERY team would need to carry a DISTINCT and UNIQUE check to Aegislash as opposed to a broader answer (i.e I carry EQ for Steel, Fire, and Rock types, not just Aegi).

Reasons to prefer this definition:

1. The first is education. I'm the first (I think) on this thread to offer standardized definitions that offer a good perspective for either side. This creates a learning environment that allows us as Pokemon players in the Smogon metagame to delve into the deeper issues and ultimately result in a better metagame.

2. Specific wording - my definitions refer to a center as opposed to multiple. This allows us to see if there are multiple things that are hurting the metagame or if it's just Aegislash.

3. Gives both sides ground - These definitions allow both sides ground to state their arguments as opposed to being partial towards the side of not banning Aegislash.

Interpretation 2 - Broken
"2. reduced to fragments; fragmented.
3. ruptured; torn; fractured.
4. not functioning properly; out of working order.
5. Meteorology . (of sky cover) being more than half, but not totally, covered by clouds. Compare scattered( def 4 ) .
6. changing direction abruptly: The fox ran in a broken line." - Dictionary.com

Interp: Frankly only definition #4 is relevant to the matter right now. Dictionary.com interprets broken to be out of working order (in this case, we will assume that Aegislash creates a metagame that isn't in working order and becomes unhealthy). So, for Aegislash to be considered "broken" it MUST be the SOLE reason for an unhealthy metagame. If you fight for a scenario where Aegislash is not the only thing broken then it creates unstable debate and you should be able to defend the worlds in which ALL other things that could be interpreted "broken" must be banned.

Reasons to prefer this definition:

1. Education - This interp challenges the creative minds to fit Aegi into a category while fighting by standard definitions. This keep arguments on point and relevant to the case at hand.

2. Ground - Both sides can interp whether the meta can work w/o Aegi or not.

3. Holds sides to their respective args - Each side must defend their respective world (World X = Aegi Banned, World Y = Aegi Legal) and the consequences of it. I make a claim in my interp that if Aegi is broken then banning it MUST fix the meta because to should be the major problem.


-----------ANSWERING ARGUMENTS FOR BANNING AEGI-----------

Argument #1 - "It has essentially base 720 stats"

Yeah it does, that's basic math. While it does have the ability to change on the fly, it is still far from broken. It can't have all the stats at once, meaning the player has to trade offense for defense at any given moment. Plus, with the predicability of Aegislash, you can manipulate the stat changes to set up on Aegislash. While 720 BST looks intimidating, it's far from unbeatable. What people who make this argument occasionally forget is that just because you can make these changes on the fly doesn't mean Aegi isn't prone to W-o-W, RK'ing, and other common weaknesses such as Ground and Fire.

Argument #2 - "It is over centralizing"

If Aegi was TRULY over centralizing and restricting to team building then EVERY team would need to pack a distinct check to Aegi. The fact is, teams carry broader check that are used for other mons barring Aegi. Aegi doesn't require specific checks. Aegi is prone to EQ (super common) and Lava Plume/Flamethrower/Fire Blast (super common). People who attack Aegi for being over centralizing fail to see the true definition of Overcentralizing. (see definition and interp above. also note reasons to prefer)

Argument #3 - "No true checks"

Offensive LO variant

Hide

Aegislash @ Life Orb

Hide

Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Gentle Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield

Checks: SpDef Heatran (common), Zard Y (common), Bisharp (common), Landorus-i (common), Landorus-T (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common)
Counters: tbh very few but a plethora of counters that are common (EQ lol) make up for it. (Plus, other mons have no "true" counters either because of set variation)

SD

Hide

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

Checks:Landorus-i (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common)
Counters: Landorus-T (common), Zard Y (common), Aegislash

SubToxic

Hide

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball

Checks: Zard Y (common), Landorus-i (common), Landorus-T (common), Mamoswine (relatively common), Garchomp (common), Kyu-B (relatively common), Mega Pinsir (common)
Counters: Poison Types (namely MegaSaur), Heatran (common), Bisharp (common), Clefable (fairly common), Excadrill (common), SD Sciz/MSciz (common)

Argument #4 - "Too many moves"

Ok :P This is basically an arg to why is shouldn't be banned. 4MSS kills Aegi and prevents it from accessing this reason to ban it period.

Also, many mons can run more than 4 moves. Latios w/ EQ for Heatran? Yep, it's viable. So is Dragon Pulse, Draco, Surf, Tbolt, Psychic, Psyshock, HP Fire, and Trick. But it doesn't deserve a ban.

-----------REASONS TO KEEP AEGI-----------

Reason #1 - Prevents Power Creep

Calling it now more megas WILL BE BANNED if Aegi goes. Aegi helps to stop Mega Maw and Mega Tar now, and those could float to Ubers quickly. Those are far from broken.

Reason #2 - Good but not Broken

I've already said Aegi is not broken thru Checks and that stuff. He needs to stay around because he's good, not broken.




That's all I've got for now. Enjoy laddering

How can someone waste so much time being so wrong? Formatting and quoting the dictionary doesn't make your argument any better. Everything you just extrapolated from your definitions is entirely subjective. And teams DO have to carry distinct checks to Aegislash or else they get shat on. That's, like, XY OU 101. Does it have Pokemon that can OHKO it? Of course, so does every Pokemon. Does it have Pokemon that can safely switch in on it? No, none whatsoever. Every single Pokemon can be screwed over by a given Aegislash set. And while in a given battle you can certainly come in and revenge Aegislash, that just means it's already taken something down. Like, Landorus-T isn't going to be OHKOing Aegislash with EQ (first of all some run balloon and also it needs like max attack to OHKO but whatever) without switching into it, and doing so will cause it to take an insane amount of damage from Shadow Ball.

God that post gave me an ulcer. I'm done with this thread now.