np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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This is the sets that I found viable on Aegislash.
-snip-
Sets 4,5,6,8 are basically the same concepts. Set 12 is garbage (Come on, stance dance is garbage under almost any situation). The automotize could've simply been made one set with an extra slash and even then automatize is not common nor does it really have much purpose: If something can tank aegislash, Aegi is moving fast enough to leave itself in sword form whenever the opponent attacks. All out attack seems like garbage, I'd like to see some sort of proof because all you're doing is leaving yourself open to get pursuit trapped, nailed after every hit, or lose massive amounts of momentum after every attack due to having to switch. I don't have an opinion on CB other than it looks just as bad as the all out attacker. I'd give you three sets out of that whole list that doesn't come off as complete garbage.

There are quite a few flaws in your post:


Doesnt that imply that it was a pro-ban argument, if its best checks 2hko'd? Even if they are fast, how are you planning them to get in, if they are 2hko'd, they can only switch in once, and with possible hazard damage/chip damage they could be ko'd with shadow ball + shadow sneak.
No... I mean, think of revenge killers like terrakion and talonflame. When they check something, they might even be at risk of getting OHKOd. However, their speed and attack means that they'll take care of the issue before the issue has a chance to attack. Now if we were talking counters, this would be an issue. However, we are not and Aegi's counters are not 2hkod anyways.

One of the main proban arguments is that it has NO 100% counters, just a bunch of checks, not many pokes want to take a shadow ball/sacred sword and the ones that can be beaten by sub toxic. Im not saying it has all those sets at once, but it has the possibility to run a set which can beat your 'counter'. If 'he'll leave a huge dent', you dont really counter it too well.
So, you're calling Gliscor and Amoongus not 100% counters? A mandibuzz that has maybe 5% of aegis able to possibly beat it not a counter? Oh look! An HP Ground Talonflame just killed my heatran! Heatran doesn't counter talonflame! When these counters lose to obscurer movesets, why don't you take a minute to wonder why these obscurer movesets aren't use? It's because you lose so much more by running it. Flash cannon over shadow sneak/sacred/shadowball? You've just lost your two part neutral coverage on the whole tier. Same with any moves added in. Esp the Legendary Headsmash Aegi, god and savior vs Satanbuzz. Obviously, you're just losing a ton of HP to take care of exactly one threat.


I also havent yet mentioned kings shield which imo pushes it over the broken line. It can be played around but it is still there - a wrong prediction could be devastating on either side, no poke should be able to force this which makes aegi uncompetitive.
Heh, let's use the flagship word of every recent suspect here: "uncompetitive" when that could not be more untrue. Pokemon has a large foundation of luck, either with move miss percentage, secondary effect, or even Twave full paralyzing. To be honest, King's Shield is far more controllable luck because you make a conscious decision of what move to make each turn so you can at least make strong, educated guesses about what your opponent will do. This runs into prediction which most of the community is divided on being luck or skill. It's somewhere in the middle, but there's no way that this is uncompetitive. If we're going to use this argument, there are a great deal of moves more luck-indulgent.
 
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3495292/

Just chipping in here again to say that "usage stats" are not a reliable way to discern a Pokemon's usable sets, since the ladder is cluttered with players that stick to the 'trends' and refuse to innovate (or are just bad). Swords Dance may be rarely seen, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I mean look at Substitute's 7% usage and Toxic's 5% usage lol. Swords Dance Aegislash's main advantage is that it can clean up lategame with +2 Shadow Sneaks, something other Aegislash cannot do. Since the set focuses on offense and drops defense, it permits the use of a speedy Aegislash, outspeeding opponents such as Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz, Adamant Bisharp (if you use Jolly), and Mega Mawile, which other sets also cannot do, while shattering bulky opponents such as Amoonguss, AV Conkeldurr, and Mega Venusaur with +2 attacks. I'm not saying Swords Dance is Aegislash's best set, but its ability to bypass traditional counters to the other sets while maintaining dangerous offensive potential still warrants merit. Stance Dance (Swords Dance + King's Shield) is complete and utter garnage though, I'll give you that, and I'm betting that's the reason for its high usage is ladder noobs spamming this very set.
Ok lol but u forgot that a huge amount of pokemon like Gliscor Landorus-T Charizard X, even Rotom-W can destroy SD set, then I don't want to say this is an horrible set (it shouldnt be so used) but that the ratio quality/usage is pretty disappointing than other better sets like Mixed or SubToxic or simply the underrated sub+2atks

The point is still that Aegislash got only 3 moveslots due to KShield so I don't really know how this is goin to be defined "broken" when you just have to use some special bulk mon (AV is fine, look at AV Azumarill which fits in a lot of balance/offense teams and baitkills stuff like Greninja and, why not, Leftovers Thundurus) and something that can win vs subtoxic and sd (jolly bisharp is an example even though Sucker Punch Adamant Bisharp got a really high chance to OHKO speedy Shield Form --> 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (98 - 116%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO and Diggersby still exists as offense Check, while stalls got stuff like Clefable/Sylveon/Amoonguss for mixed n subtoxic, Chesnaught for mixed, Gliscor/Landorus-T/Quagsire for SD etc)
 

Anty

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Sets 4,5,6,8 are basically the same concepts. Set 12 is garbage (Come on, stance dance is garbage under almost any situation). The automotize could've simply been made one set with an extra slash and even then automatize is not common nor does it really have much purpose: If something can tank aegislash, Aegi is moving fast enough to leave itself in sword form whenever the opponent attacks. All out attack seems like garbage, I'd like to see some sort of proof because all you're doing is leaving yourself open to get pursuit trapped, nailed after every hit, or lose massive amounts of momentum after every attack due to having to switch. I don't have an opinion on CB other than it looks just as bad as the all out attacker. I'd give you three sets out of that whole list that doesn't come off as complete garbage.


No... I mean, think of revenge killers like terrakion and talonflame. When they check something, they might even be at risk of getting OHKOd. However, their speed and attack means that they'll take care of the issue before the issue has a chance to attack. Now if we were talking counters, this would be an issue. However, we are not and Aegi's counters are not 2hkod anyways.


So, you're calling Gliscor and Amoongus not 100% counters? A mandibuzz that has maybe 5% of aegis able to possibly beat it not a counter? Oh look! An HP Ground Talonflame just killed my heatran! Heatran doesn't counter talonflame! When these counters lose to obscurer movesets, why don't you take a minute to wonder why these obscurer movesets aren't use? It's because you lose so much more by running it. Flash cannon over shadow sneak/sacred/shadowball? You've just lost your two part neutral coverage on the whole tier. Same with any moves added in. Esp the Legendary Headsmash Aegi, god and savior vs Satanbuzz. Obviously, you're just losing a ton of HP to take care of exactly one threat.


Heh, let's use the flagship word of every recent suspect here: "uncompetitive" when that could not be more untrue. Pokemon has a large foundation of luck, either with move miss percentage, secondary effect, or even Twave full paralyzing. To be honest, King's Shield is far more controllable luck because you make a conscious decision of what move to make each turn so you can at least make strong, educated guesses about what your opponent will do. This runs into prediction which most of the community is divided on being luck or skill. It's somewhere in the middle, but there's no way that this is uncompetitive. If we're going to use this argument, there are a great deal of moves more luck-indulgent.
Responding para by para

Swords dance is a late game threat and can easily clean up late game, it i very unexpected as well. Im not going to say much on the first para because it wasnt aimed at me.

I wouldnt call talonflame a check (maybe not even terak) as they can only come in if aegi is weakened after a ko:
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO < shadow ball also does 60-70%
Even if you are banded, it doesnt ko

-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 217-256 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I would rather my checks not take too much damage in revenge killing. Even after this aegi can ks again, then not get ko'd
Ik this is assuming aegi is at full health, but a check should either be able to come in, on say a double down, and win the situation.

Gliscor cannot touch balloon aegi unless running knock off which it has to loose eq for, and shadow ball has a chance to lower spdef anyway (i wont mention hp ice as im not sure if it has enough niche to justify). I will admit that amoo is a counter. But what teams want amoo and gliscor? Stall and defensive, as an offensive player, i wouldnt want them on my team. The talonflame analogy is stupid, as tweaks in aegislash's move sets dont deter it from its main uses, whilst talon isnt beating heatran with hp ground unless its specs. The reason why i am justifying these moves are because they are viable - usage doesnt mean much, (air slash is used on 29% of charizards, as an example). Of course you will lose a moveslot if you want a certain move, but instead of hitting certain mons you hit others - even if the 'others' are less, you use the move because you want to hit the 'others'.

Its uncompetitive because it is controllable by the player, remember tho whole thing about baton pass being uncompetitive? That didnt rely on luck at all. You talk about 'strong, educated guesses', usually this will be the case, eg an obvious switch into a ground type on an electric move, but with kings shield, it is a 50/50. You cannot make 'strong, educated guesses' on a speed tie, because that is also a 50/50, same with swagger (well, confusion as a whole). You cannot work out what they are going to do, either ks or attack. 50/50's are uncompetitive, especcially when you can enforce them when you should be in the worse position.


e: I was saying that the 50/50's are as luck based as a speed tie, you cannot tell if they will ks or attack.

Also, if you're going to respond tag me pls x_x <<sorry if that sounded rude
 
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I mean, Spdef Gliscor runs knock off, roost, EQ and taunt I believe making this not an issue. If you're running the old subtoxic set, you obviously aren't in need of a balloon aegi counter.

I was referring to talonflame and terrakion in their works to work as a general check, as an example that a target didn't need to worry about a 2hko when checking.

You can always make an educated guess on when your opponent will make a move. That's a human controlled element with elements of human decision making. Speed ties are game reliant. King's shield is an active choice by a player to be used. I don't see your comparison. If an aegi is in blade form and you aren't a boosting threat, it will almost certainly KS. If it is in shield form and you can't ohko it, it will probably just attack. If you've seen how your opponent has been playing aegi, take that data and add it to your guess. There is no way a game mechanic coin flip and a player deciding to use a move can be similar at all.
 
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My point was that Aegislash allows offensive teams to check opposing offensive threats without the need of losing offensive presence themselves. Yep, that definitely sounds like a convoluted "broken checking broken", however I totally see this as positive for the metagame, as I explained.


On other note, what troubles me about some of the pro-ban arguments is that they are so lax and broadly stated that they may as well apply to other 10 or 15 pokes. Based solely on the argument of versatility and power, it may as well apply to Greninja, Gengar, Kyurem-B, Dragonite... and half the of offensive pokemon ranked A in viability. Are we banning everything that has a versatile movepool? Everything that has more than one viable set? Are we banning every Ghost type that can counter a Psychic type? Every mixed breaker? Every offensive poke that can also take a hit?
And I have yet to see an argument about those King Shield 50/50's that could not apply to Sucker Punch and set up moves. Are we banning all that on the same ground? All these kind of pro-ban arguments need to be more sharp at singling out Aegislash, IMHO.
(My response to bolded quote is in bold)

I am loving your comments because they seem to be pro-ban arguments in disguise. You just listed 6 great qualities, and then said individually are pokemon with 1 of these qualities broken? The answer is no, we are banning pokemon that possess all of these traits at once. That is the kicker that people tend to stray from. And first off, what other ghost counters psychic types??? There arent any in OU anyway...

People keep taking one individual trait from aegislash and saying well this trait by itself isnt so bad, and they keep breaking it down and soon they have 15 5 bullet points of how this ONE trait isnt so bad, and it is also possessed by other pokemon in the tier. But that is not a comprehensive view of the pokemon and its place in the metagame. You need to look at the tier and say, wow, Aegislash is able to perform soo many roles for this team, there is absolutely no reason I shouldnt put him on my team.

Ok I am teribble and being clear and concise so here is my attempt:

Aegislash doesnt deserve a ban because it has more than one viable moveset. Aegislash doesnt deserve a ban because King's Shield and forces some 50/50s. Aegislash doesn't deserve a ban because he is the easiest pokemon to throw on a team and as a consequence overcentralizes the meta. Aegislash doesn't deserve a ban because he is the only ghost type that can pursuit trap, while avoid being pursuit trapped himself. (insert other individual traits of Aegislash that arent inherrently broken but add to the greater picture here). Aegislash deserves a ban(imo) because he can do all of the things above and more, he is too much wrapped into one pokemon and I dont think its healthy for the metagame at this point so I say lets get him out of here. Again I really dont care either way, but this is just my opinion on the subject.

Maybe if gamefreak gives us more competitive pokemon like Aegislash he will thrive in OU and be part of a fun, dynamic, competitive meta, but at this point he is the only competitive minded pokemon gamefreak has given us and that makes him too good to be amongst regular pokemon.
 
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PLEASE READ !!


Aegislash limiting the viability of certain pokemon cannot constitute sufficient justification for a ban. Mega Medichan and Mega Heracross would be more viable serving as checks to certain pokemon now banished to ubers (i.e. Mega Lucario and Mega Khangaskhan), but that was not a sufficient reason for leaving them in the metagame then and it is not a sufficient reason for taking Aegislash out now. We cannot make sense of banning a pokemon because it limits certain individuals' viability, or we would have to ban banning in general. It just is a fact that limiting the viability of certain pokemon is part of what a tier does.

Many have argued that Aegislash's ability to force opponent's in a situation of a so called 50/50 has negative consequences on competitive play. Even if this were true, and I do not think it is, pokemon with this ability are not new to the meta. Whimsicott's priority ecore/leech seed/substitute/taunt puts many more threats into a similar predicament than Aegislash's stance change could ever hope to, and I think it is safe to say we have no reason to ban this little fluffy ball of cute, except perhaps for the psychological discomfort it causes its opponents. In fact, the so called 50/50 dilemma created by Aegislash is very limited in utility. King's shield does not hinder encore,taunt,spore, leech seed, over heat, flame thrower, and earthquake. Earthquake's high distribution allows the entire meta to softly check Aegislash. Further, Aegislash can be forced into a similar dilemma by an opponent using protect.

Are there counters to Aegislash, of course! Is there one Pokemon that can switch into any Aegislash set safely and 1 hit KO, no there isn't. But, that is an unreasonable expectation of a meta. There is no reason that players should be able to make simple prediction when switching into any pokemon. Such a claim implies that pokemon ought to be a game with the same mechanics and depth as rock-paper-scissors.

Aegislash is actually completely healthy to the meta; and therefore, it would be a mistake to ban Aegislash. What can be said about a player able to deal with Aegislash knowing the various tools of destruction it may hide under its shield while being ignorant to which tool this individual Aegislash wields, other than he/she is a far superior player. I do not think we are prepared to say that a player that defeats a team with Aegislash as one of its members was lucky instead of we saying that he/she out played the opponent. This is what is central to my argument: I tend to think that a metagame that puts players into situations in which no one really knows what is going to happen next is much more interesting than not, and interesting over boring is a essentially valuable feature of any meta. Further, I tend to think that Aegislash allows a situation that rewards the best players for being that much better. This is obviously essential and healthy to any meta.

As has already been stated, Some have argued that Aegislash adds a unhealthy luck based feature to the game. I completely disagree. This argument worked for Swag-Key for obvious reasons, but fails for this steel type. If it is true that a healthy metagame is skilled based then Aegislash is a beautiful addition, because being able to predict around it or being able to use it instead of it just becoming a liability allows the opportunity to separate those players that can only make simple predictions and those that can infer predictive maneuvers where others see nothing but pokemon. Examples of such information are, team preview, the opponents playing style, the teams moveset and what variant of pokemon X would compliment said team.

It is from my experience on wifi that I think I can give clear examples of how Aegislash allows the opportunity to display true predictive skill for both user and the opponent of Aegislash. Both examples take place on Wifi and are likely recorded battles on Pokemon Global Link for season 4 in singles battles. My IGN is LU and I am ranked 8th in the US for wifi single battles. In both examples I am the user of Aegislash and my opponent is using the infamous Khangaskhan, one of the first mega evolutions to be banished to Ubers. My Aegislash is a weakness policy special attacking variant with King's shield/shadow sneak/flash cannon/shadow ball.

On the first turn I start with Mamoswine while my opponent sends out Khan. I predict an evolution and a fake out on the first turn. I switch to Aegislash to keep from taking any damage. Here is where it gets tricky. My Aegislash even with an activated weakness policy cannot KO Khan with Flash Cannon. I knew this but my opponent did not. Based on this I predicted my opponent would switch because he has probably over-predicted that my switch was into a sacred sword variant. Why else would I switch into an Aegislash that could not KO Khan? Little does he/she know this is a bluff and I expect that there will be a switch into something that resists sacred sword but takes massive damage from shadow ball. I predicted correctly and he switches into a focus sash Gengar. I predicted s/he would try to save his Gengar by switching back into Khan selecting Flash Cannon. S/he did not know my other two attacking moves and probably predicted correctly that I had shadow sneak. I predicted correctly. S/he switches to Khan who took a direct Flash cannon putting it in KO range. My opponent forfeits the next turn.

My second example starts out exactly the same and I predict exactly the same. Unfortunately, my opponent does not Mega evolve when I switch from my Mamoswine to my Aegislash. Instead, he hits my Aegislash with a power-up punch that activates my weakness policy due to his ability scrappy. With a plus 1 to attack Khan's Earthquake is more than enough to KO my Aegislash, which he does and proceeds to sweep the other two the remainder of my team. The question remains then is “How did the user of the opposing Khan predict my switch without any data of my play style?” The answer is simple. He looked at my team in team preview and concluded that it was a better decision to not mega evolve and power up punch knowing that if he did not do so and I did so happen to pick and switch to my Aegislash on the next turn, he would have wasted a move and depending on the variant I was using he would have completely lost momentum. He had all the relevant information to make the right decision and not only KO my Aegislash, but also precede to sweep my team winning the match.

The examples of my feign and the example of my opponent's correct prediction shows definitively that there is no 50/50 when dealing with Aegislash, and there is no reason to think that a player cannot figure out what variant Aegislash is just by looking at a player's team or watching a players play style. Further, there is no reason to think that countering Aegislash depends wholly on what variant it is or even knowing what variant it is. The player that defeated me made a simple evaluation in team preview and used Khan to lure out something I was planning to feign with anyway. He needed no other data to beat me, which separates himself or herself from many others and further creates a lacuna between players that think facing Aegislash is some sorta 50/50 and those that know better. Sometimes you are wrong sometimes you are right, but neither ever necessarily depend on pure Chance. If it does it is a matter of the player playing the pokemon and not the player. Aegislash rewards those players that deserve to be rewarded and punishes those players that do not, and it was intended to work this way. Pokedex information “Apparently, it can detect the innate qualities of leadership. According to legend, whoever it recognizes is destined to become king.” In the same right, whoever Aegislash does not recognize is not destined to be King.

The last point I will address is the argument of over centralization. It is claimed by the pro-ban Aegislash that Aegislash overcentralizes the metagame in an unhealthy way. Over centralization is suppose to mean something like the meta game is so bent around this pokemon that is is impossible to build a team without building it around this pokemon in one way or another... usually due to it being overpowered in some way. I agree that there is a real bend around this pokemon, but I offer what I think is a more plausible explanation. Aegislash is much like Rotom-W in that it checks so many threats because of its ability and typing that it must be considered and further is able to play a role that there is no other pokemon to play. This I think is the reason for the centralization; not because he is overpowered. For instance, Talonflame checks every grass and fighting type in the game with little help from other Mons except perhaps Mega Picser which he also checks. A big job for such a small bird. Further, the odds are stacked against him due to his stealth rock weakness and the necessary recoil damage he incurs from using either of his powerful stabs. In fact a brave bird that kills Blissey will also kill Talonflame due to the sheer amount of HP of the pink cleric. This fact about Talonflame displays two things. In gen six it was made very difficult to sweep which is shown by Talonflames inability to sweep and his ability to stop the sweep of other pokemon. The sheer amount of powerful physical sweepers and powerful physical moves, and the amount of viable physical walls and features implemented in the game to halt physical sweepers (i.e. priority swagger, King's shield, will-o-wisp) seems to imply that sweeping is intended to be very difficult because it is very powerful. Gen 5 was dominated by powerful physical sweepers because the ability to gain a buff instantly eliminates many counters to said pokemon. Even if the sweep is incomplete it likely smashed a large enough hole in the team that victory is assured. This makes sweeping a risky and powerful opportunistic tactic to gain momentum. The risk is essential for a metagame that is not dominated by powerful attackers. Players now have to really think about their offensive build, since Dragon Dance for their forth move slot is no longer and obvious choice. In this way, Aegislash is a designed general check to set up by rewarding those that risk and predict correctly and punishing those that mis-calculatd. It is for these reason that Aegislash is an essentially important feature of a healthy metagame. It centralizes prediction as a tactic away from opportunistic switching and sweeping. If a metagame is essentially suppose to favor the most skilled player and the most skilled player is one with the most powerful predictive power than we can infer from this that Aegislash is an intended necessary agent. Therefore the reason why the metagame has become so “centralized” around Aegislash is that the pokemon serves an important and essential role and there is no other pokemon that serves this role as of yet. This role, as I have argued is an essential balance by centralizating around prediction.
 

Jukain

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Honestly that one list of matchups was bad but not entirely off. Lemme make my own.
Charizard X - DD set ultimately gets stuck in two 50/50s assuming 1v1 situation - first turn KS or attack, second turn KS or attack. SDef wins if no SR is up though dies to Head Smash and nowhere near KOing without a Fire move. Also can be Toxic'd which heavily cripples it.

Thundurus - can run Knock Off, but otherwise checked well by Aegi and annihilated by its attack

Mega Mawile - depends on set. Sub Aegislash can Sub on Sucker and SBall attack, plus if it tries to set up or do anything else on Life Orb variants it takes a crapload or dies on the next turn if it SD'd. It can Fire Fang but what if Aegi KS, and if Sucker is only coverage to hit Aegi vs Sub it flat-out loses. 50/50s :z

Landorus - OHKOes, can take Lefties SBall + Sneak. Loses to Balloon variants and has no shot at coming into Life Orb variants ever. Decent check set depending.

Azumarill - Aegi is an Azumarill check, for one thing. It can KS and cripple it for any teammate to come in with ease, hits it hard with SBall though AV is only 3HKOed, if you think BD you can just attack it and then next turn it's forced into KS 50/50.

Bisharp - All kinds of 50/50s. Can't come in if Aegi would Sacred Sword. Can get surprised by fast variants so does it Sucker Blade stance and lose momentum or Pursuit? When it's in Knock vs Pursuit 50/50 and Knock is not even a guaranteed KO espec if BG because Aegi is that fucking bulky. If it Pursuits and Aegi stays, Aegi takes 40% and kills. Bisharp is a good way to remove it because it can Pursuit trap, but even that's a 50/50 and it can get popped by 240 Spe sets.

Clefable - depends. Unaware without Fire Blast or Flamethrower can't beat it, possibly Toxic'd. MG can set up on it, but that loses to a Steel move even.

Excadrill - has trouble if Balloon because Aegi can then spinblock even if it properly predicts the switch-in with EQ. Scarf gets exploited anyways if it doesn't EQ, especially if trying to spin. Easily taken out by Aegi's attacks.

Garchomp - one of the best offensive Aegi checks in the tier.

Greninja - must run Dark Pulse if it wants to win, otherwise doesn't 2HKO so Aegi checks it.

Mega Gyarados - good offensive Aegi check

Keldeo - decent offensive Aegi check situationally, Aegi must be weakened for it to KO with Specs Hydro but it can take SBall + Sneak so wins 1v1 assuming no Hydro miss.

Mega Pinsir - forced to run EQ for Aegi, 50/50 if it wants to set up, hates Balloon variants.

Mega Scizor - ok Aegi check with some SpD.

Talonflame - KS scouts move and lets Aegi user easily react accordingly. Aegi can switch into anything but Flare Blitz which forces some 50/50 scenarios. SpD variants with WoW can sort of check it.

TTar - Phys Def is a decent Aegi check if Aegi has no Life Orb or isn't invested in Attack. Other sets fare poorly, and forced to run EQ for Aegi. Mega TTar doesn't usually OHKO with +1 EQ, loses to Balloon, and can't come into Sacred Sword. It is forced to run EQ primarily because of Aegi. Doesn't like Toxic.

Mega Venusaur - comes into SBall, forced to Synthesis, free momentum for opponent/waste Synth PP. Outsped and 2HKOed by fast Life Orb variants or OHKOed by +2 Atk Aegi.

Charizard Y - actually a good check (assuming no Head Smash) if you can keep SR off the field, can OHKO in sun too which is great. Can be crippled by a Toxic.

Dragonite - offensive variants lose to Balloon/forced into 50/50s if CB by Aegi. SpD is a good check.

Ferrothorn - Knock Off variants are a good answer, besides SD variants which beat it with +2 Sword.

Gengar - lol.

Heatran - defensive variants can check Lefties albeit taking large amounts of damage to do so. Actually loses to Sword + KS + Sword + Sneak with a small amount of prior damage because Plume doesn't KO, assuming no burn. Loses to fast LO set/SD.

Hippowdon - SpD variants are a good Lefties Aegi check, loses to Balloon Aegi without a Rock move and 2HKOed by Life Orb variants. More SpD sets lose to +2 Iron Head.

Landorus-T - someone explain to me how this is an Aegi answer ?_? It can take exactly one SBall, then is SRing or EQ which can be exploited. Scarf can be scouted to take advantage of. Doesn't OHKO anyways. Balloon is e_e

Latios/Latias - lol.

Mandibuzz - beats Aegi without Toxic or Flash Cannon or Head Smash, so has to scout set.

Rotom-W - can cripple with a burn, though Aegi doesn't mind that much and can just 2HKO. Where's your Pinsir check now?

Terrakion - Forced to run EQ for Aegi, which only 2HKOes and it is forced into 50/50s for an Aegi switch-in. Loses 1v1 and to Balloon sets.

Breloom/Chansey - lol.

Diggersby - Good offensive Aegi check, though doesn't like switching into Toxic which especially with LO wears it down fast. Aegi + Ground immune can switch around and create 50/50s. Walled by Balloon.

Gliscor - SpD is a good check to SBall, though dies to +2 Head Smash and loses to Balloon sans Knock Off (SubToxic and Taunt Toxic EQ flat-out lose)

Kyurem-B - Sub set has 50/50s. Aegi checks this anyways.

Mamoswine - doesn't like Balloon but otherwise does well.

Manaphy - decent Aegi check.

Scolipede - checked by Aegi, as it must be pretty weakened to die to EQ. Hard checked by Balloon.

Skarmory - lol.

Amoonguss - SpD is a good check, though loses to SD.

Mega Garchomp - decent offensive Aegi check, can OHKO in sand.

Mega Gardevoir - Walled, loses viability due to Aegi.

Gyarados - KS 50/50s, sort of, as they are more biased towards Aegi.

Kabutops - in rain 50/50 vs Aegi.

Mega Medicham - can hit with Fire Punch, but other variants lose, cannot HJK in Aegi's presence limiting it. Loses viability due to Aegi.

Politoed - SpD is an okay Aegi check.

Quagsire/Scizor/Slowbro/Torn-T - lol.

Zapdos - pretty good check to non-Head Smash Aegi.

The point of this is that there is a limited pool of good offensive checks that you must carry multiple of, and no real exactly solid defensive answers -- all lose to particular sets. The point of this is to illustrate how centralized the meta is around Aegi, as well. You'll note that Pokemon which can KO Aegi/check it offensively are much higher up (this is sorted in the order of the viability rankings [S - B+]), while Pokemon that lose to Aegi are mostly lower on the list. Many Pokemon have options they must or are heavily compelled to run simply because Aegi exists.

My question is, how is a Pokemon that has a limited pool of offensive checks that are more viable because of it, has no defensive counters, that is pretty hard to scout because it can really run anything for so many teams, and forces Pokemon to run moves specifically to target it healthy of the tier?
 
Let me fix some things:

Mega Charizard X: Still a check. I agre that Mega Charizard X is a solid check.

Mega Mawile: What? Mawile can just spam Sucker Punch over and over, the attack reduction doesn't work if Aegis uses KS because it's not a damage move. Sucker Punch has 8 PP. Given that the rest of Mawile movepool is consisted of contact attacks (Sucker Punch is contact but miss against King's Shield) Aegislash can use King's Shield 8 times to hoipe to get a -2.

Azumarill: Belly Drum Azumarill can still set up on its face. False, unless Aegislash somehow mispredicted and used King's Shield the previous turn. true that a +6 Waterfall can K. O. Aegislash but King's Shield can reduce the attack 2 levels. Also, it isn't a counter because IIRC shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak can do more than 3/4 of Azumarill's HP.

Clefable: Calm Mind + Fire move is the standard Clefable set. And if Aegis has any other coverage move that is not Iron Head, it is walled. Or Flash Cannon. If you don't have a Fire moves, bye Clefable. It's a shaky check at best, totally depending of the set.

Garchomp: Garchomp is still faster and attacks first. It's a check. It's a solid check. Here I agree totally.

Mega Gyarados: Then don't use Waterfall? Why are you posting calcs for moves that will never be used? This is a perfect example to show why I think Aegislash is broken. If you click Waterfall(neutral move) and Aegislash decide to King's Shield, Aegislash loses.

Mega Scizor: Scizor can keep spamming Swords Dance + Roost and use Aegis as set up fodder, though. Aegislash has to guess the exact turn Scizor is going to stop healing itself and use Knock Off, otherwise it's attacked in blade forme. With very good prediction, specially given how everything not named Knock off is really weak.

Mega Tyranitar: Don't use Crunch then, use Earthquake. Again, don't post calcs for sub-optimal moves. Crunch does more damage than Earthquake. Another case of why Aegislash could be broken.

Mega Venusaur: Then use Sleep Power or Leech Seed, and then spam Synthesis. Shaky check at best. ANd be aware of Sandstorm.

Mega Charizard Y: Still a check. Here I agree.

Ferrothorn: Which is enough if Ferrothorn is using a specially defensive set. And how it will attack? Ferrothorn doesn't have relaiable recovery.

Hippowdon: the specially defensive set is the standard one, though. It's a check, but depends too much on luck (or the set of Aegislash).

Rotom-W: Special Defense Rotom can burn and run, though. His main mvoe is not affected by Burn. And can 2HKO.

Terrakion: Then don't use everything else, use EQ. Aegislash is the reason of why Terrakion has to run EQ.

Breloom: Not that hard, Breloom can still put it to sleep for free, then switch into something else, or stay in and try to weaken it. And a sleeping Aegislash is in danger of taking massive damage before it wakes up if it's a LO Breloom. It is also forced to guess when it is gonna wake up, otherwise it risks being attacked in blade forme. The match-up is largely dictated by hax, it's not a hard counter. Here I sightly agree. however, it's a terrible idea to defeat it with Breloom.

Chansey: Most Aegislash sets can't do anything to Chansey, either. And she can still heal herself and her teamates. Full counter. it can last 40 turns but Aegiuslash ends up defeating Chansey.

Diggersby: Still a check. And almost a counter if you manage to switch into a ghost move. Here I agree.

Kyurem-B: No, no, no. It can survive a single hit from any move. It can 2HKO or 3HKO (depending on the sets) with Earth Power. And Sub Kyurem-B can force aegis into mindgames where the dragon has the advantage. It's a shaky check at best.

Mamoswine: The offensive set gets a guaranteed OHKO though. Check. Requires CB Jolly or LO Adamant. And hard defeated y Flash Cannon.

In the end, Aegislash has quite a lot of checks. At the moment, the checks of Talonflame are MCharizard-X, Landorus, Excadrill, Garchomp, MCharizard Y, Heatran, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and yeah. Some pokemon like Bisharp, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Talonflame and Diggersby are revenge killer or ocassional checks.




The list of pokemon in this meta who have zero, or near zero, counters is pretty high though. I think it has already been estabilished that this gen is not a gen of counters. It is a gen of checks. Having zero counters would be an issue if this was a sweeper like Mega Luke, but in Aegislash's case, it just makes the game more prediction based.
About Landorus-T, to guarantee an OHko to Aegislash it requires a Life Orb and an Adamant nature. Scarf Landorus-T doesn't OHKO Aegislash. Shadow Ball 2HKoes back. It could be a check, but not mroe than that.

About the list of B Pokemon
Ammonguss: The closest of a counter only iof he has Foul Play. And has 4MSS. And It's a counter because his 30 Base Speed.
Mega Garchomp is an excelelnt check with an Adamant nature.
Mega Gardevoir. Only Shadow Ball could do a 2HKO. However, Flash Cannon and Shadow Ball can OHKO (and if not, Shadow Sneak).
Gyarados. It can check, but it's not guarantee to do so. A shaky check.
Kabutops. Only Waterfall in rain can 2HKO. All of hius mvoes except Stoned Edge can be taken with King's Shield.
Mega Meicham Hard Counter.
Politoed: Good luck. You will need it.
Quagsire Quagsire usually wins only because it's slower.
Scizor: Only with Knock off it could try to defeat Aegislash. Actually it's worse because Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back.
Slowbro: Slowbro wins if it is holding an Assault Vest tank set. Otherwise, loses.
Ferrothorn: Knock Off can't 2HKO, which means Aegislash counters it. because Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back.
Zapdos: Shaky check at best.
 
I totally get the idea behind the suspect test, but let me put this into perspective.

Saying we should ban aegi because it restricts pokemon like medicham to shine is silly. That is akin to the DPP days when people said Stealth Rock should be banned so that Charizard would be useful.

Saying we should ban Aegi because he has formed the meta around him, and he is THE reason why knock off/bisharp/mandibuzz is everywhere is a much better discussion to have.
Please remember that Smogon's bans have always been about maintaining a healthy and fair metagame, and not about allowing you to use your favorite pokemon in OU. That's what tiers are for.

That said, I never would've thought about banning him before, but the more I think about it the more uncertain I become. I'm leaning towards taking him out. But i kind of wish we did a suspect test WITHOUT aegislash to see whether or not that's a meta we do want, rather than trying to see if Aegi is a meta we don't.

Also to the list of checks going around. A lot of the check are thrashed by head smash. But that has shaky accuracy and causes Aegis to lose a lot of health and become prime for revenge kill or better
 
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I totally get the idea behind the suspect test, but let me put this into perspective.

Saying we should ban aegi because it restricts pokemon like medicham to shine is silly. That is akin to the DPP days when people said Stealth Rock should be banned so that Charizard would be useful.

Saying we should ban Aegi because he has formed the meta around him, and he is THE reason why knock off/bisharp/mandibuzz is everywhere is a much better discussion to have.
Please remember that Smogon's bans have always been about maintaining a healthy and fair metagame, and not about allowing you to use your favorite pokemon in OU. That's what tiers are for.

That said, I never would've thought about banning him before, but the more I think about it the more uncertain I become. I'm leaning towards taking him out. But i kind of wish we did a suspect test WITHOUT aegislash to see whether or not that's a meta we do want, rather than trying to see if Aegi is a meta we don't.
We are doing a suspect test without Aegislash, he is banned on the current suspect ladder.

I do agree that letting other pokémon shine is not as strong of an argument as overcentralization which has been showed by numerous arguments, the most recent being Jukain's list of matchups. In my experience, the suspect ladder has seemed really healthy. There is so much diversity, pokémon are given freedom to run non-EQ coverage moves, and I haven't found any threats to be out of control yet.
 

LeoLancaster

does this still work
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
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The last point I will address is the argument of over centralization. It is claimed by the pro-ban Aegislash that Aegislash overcentralizes the metagame in an unhealthy way. Over centralization is suppose to mean something like the meta game is so bent around this pokemon that is is impossible to build a team without building it around this pokemon in one way or another... usually due to it being overpowered in some way. I agree that there is a real bend around this pokemon, but I offer what I think is a more plausible explanation. Aegislash is much like Rotom-W in that it checks so many threats because of its ability and typing that it must be considered and further is able to play a role that there is no other pokemon to play. This I think is the reason for the centralization; not because he is overpowered. For instance, Talonflame checks every grass and fighting type in the game with little help from other Mons except perhaps Mega Picser which he also checks. A big job for such a small bird. Further, the odds are stacked against him due to his stealth rock weakness and the necessary recoil damage he incurs from using either of his powerful stabs. In fact a brave bird that kills Blissey will also kill Talonflame due to the sheer amount of HP of the pink cleric. This fact about Talonflame displays two things. In gen six it was made very difficult to sweep which is shown by Talonflames inability to sweep and his ability to stop the sweep of other pokemon. The sheer amount of powerful physical sweepers and powerful physical moves, and the amount of viable physical walls and features implemented in the game to halt physical sweepers (i.e. priority swagger, King's shield, will-o-wisp) seems to imply that sweeping is intended to be very difficult because it is very powerful. Gen 5 was dominated by powerful physical sweepers because the ability to gain a buff instantly eliminates many counters to said pokemon. Even if the sweep is incomplete it likely smashed a large enough hole in the team that victory is assured. This makes sweeping a risky and powerful opportunistic tactic to gain momentum. The risk is essential for a metagame that is not dominated by powerful attackers. Players now have to really think about their offensive build, since Dragon Dance for their forth move slot is no longer and obvious choice. In this way, Aegislash is a designed general check to set up by rewarding those that risk and predict correctly and punishing those that mis-calculatd. It is for these reason that Aegislash is an essentially important feature of a healthy metagame. It centralizes prediction as a tactic away from opportunistic switching and sweeping. If a metagame is essentially suppose to favor the most skilled player and the most skilled player is one with the most powerful predictive power than we can infer from this that Aegislash is an intended necessary agent. Therefore the reason why the metagame has become so “centralized” around Aegislash is that the pokemon serves an important and essential role and there is no other pokemon that serves this role as of yet. This role, as I have argued is an essential balance by centralizating around prediction.
Even if Aegislash centralizes the meta in a healthy way (not saying I agree with that, just assuming it for my response), how is it healthy for one 'mon have such a huge impact on the tier? Is it really best in the long run to have the meta kept in check by a single threat? If Aegi is the only thing keeping the meta together (worst-case scenario here, the meta is probably healthier with Aegi gone), then obviously the meta has problems. It's almost certainly better to ban Aegi and whatever other problems become evidenced by his departure than to keep him around if he's the only (slight exaggeration) thing keeping said problems in check. It's not quite a case of "broken-checking-broken," but it's similar.

Even Talonflame doesn't have such a large effect, since it can't switch in nearly as well as Aegi and thus has to rely on RKing opponents. If you can only stop a 'mon by RKing it, you're going to have to sac something every time said 'mon comes in. Tflame limits a large portion of the meta, but no where near to the extent Aegi does.
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
My question is, how is a Pokemon that has a limited pool of offensive checks that are more viable because of it, has no defensive counters, that is pretty hard to scout because it can really run anything for so many teams, and forces Pokemon to run moves specifically to target it healthy of the tier?
It isn't. Hence why Aegislash, Charizard, Kyurem-B and Landorus are all broken pieces of crap that don't deserve to touch this meta with a ten foot pole. I'm of the opinion that a modicrum of effort and intelligence should be required to sweep teams in Pokemon, not just whether or not the opponent is lucky enough to have a check which is effective against whatever specific set you are running.

150 attack on both ends plus some killer defenses is way too much for this meta and has contributed to the general trend of bulky setup sweepers being brushed off for one-click knockout machines, made easier by the fact that Kings Shield allows Aegislash to tank even more supereffective moves. It is silly that Pokemon like Terrakion are forced to run Earthquake for the sole purpose of stopping Aegislash.
 
I'm leaning towards taking him out. But i kind of wish we did a suspect test WITHOUT aegislash to see whether or not that's a meta we do want, rather than trying to see if Aegi is a meta we don't.
That's what the current Suspect test is on Showdown: Aegi is banned in it.
 
Replies in Bold.
I will agree with you that Aegi is centralizing (i mean look at how many mons are unviable just because of Aegi), i will also agree that it is not broken as it really only has Pseudo-Versatility. No matter what switches it makes Aegislash has always been just a great pivot and is nothing more than that (SD is a joke, Automize is a bigger joke, and WP should never be uttered in a serious argument ever).
Aegislash is no where near broken and shouldn't even be suspect worthy as it is nothing more than a pivot. Its versatility is highly over exaggerated and while it has the option to get past its counters 90% of the time pokemon like Charizard, Garchomp, and Landorus have no qualms about smashing it to bits. Aegislash is easily checked due to its common weaknesses and an over reliance on kings shield to not be destroyed as easily as a paper bag that just went through a flood and got hit with an air strike.

Also to inferzaken, I would like to ask how Aegislash gets rid of diversity. It may be centralizing but most players in this metagame will have an aegislash check, or even a counter, on their team without building for it. For a pokemon to restrict diversity it would have to be overcentralizing to a point where you would have to teambuild around beating it. Aegislash does not fit this criteria.

In conclusion: not as versatile as people seem to think; easily checked; plays only one role effectively; does not fit the criteria layed out for a broken offensive mon, defensive mon, or support mon. DO NOT BAN
>SD a joke, yeahokay.jpg

Aegislash is not more than a pivot? While I agree he is one of the best pivots out there it can do much more from this pivot position than any other common pivot (like scarfed Lando-T). It isn't a one dimensional Pokémon. It can easily fill the role of Pivot + x, in which x can be multiple things; from a staller, to a special attacker, to a physical attacker etc. Charizard and Garchomp can't even OHKO it without some kind of boost. I don't know what you mean with 'easily checked' because I don't know of many Pokémon that like to take a STAB Shadow Ball to the face coming from a 150 base SpA. W-what's that? Ttar, brb perfect coverage with Sacred Sword.

I'll also answer your question on how Aegislash kills diversity. It's hard to argue when you don't or do think about countering one Pokémon that is so manifested in the metagame. Because it comes to a point where it is just common knowledge to have x or y in your team. So much that you stop thinking about it but just do it subconsciously (hello Snorlax 3rd gen). But you can look at it from a distance. The existence of Aegislash alone makes any Rapid Spinner but Excadrill unviable. Because Aegislash is the best spin blocker and none of the spinners barring Excadrill can do anything about Aegis, in fact they are even countered by Aegislash.
This pretty much means that you are forced to run either Drill or hmm a Defogger that is probably Lati@s or Mandibuzz. This also indirectly boosts Bisharp's viability in the OU metagame, because there are no spinners besides Excadrill. Meaning a lot of teams will run Bisharp as well cauz' 'lol defog'. All these little pieces and chains make the metagame stagnate just because Aegislash is such a good spin blocker.

I could also address the fact how Aegislash effectively counters a lot of stall -and wallbreakers pretty much limiting your choices in something that can use EQ properly, but it has been addressed multiple times in this thread. As for your 'conclusion', don't know if to take it seriously because you said Aegislash can only play one role effectively. It's easily one of the most versatile pokes out there.
 
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PLEASE READ !!


Aegislash limiting the viability of certain pokemon cannot constitute sufficient justification for a ban. Mega Medichan and Mega Heracross would be more viable serving as checks to certain pokemon now banished to ubers (i.e. Mega Lucario and Mega Khangaskhan), but that was not a sufficient reason for leaving them in the metagame then and it is not a sufficient reason for taking Aegislash out now. We cannot make sense of banning a pokemon because it limits certain individuals' viability, or we would have to ban banning in general. It just is a fact that limiting the viability of certain pokemon is part of what a tier does.

Many have argued that Aegislash's ability to force opponent's in a situation of a so called 50/50 has negative consequences on competitive play. Even if this were true, and I do not think it is, pokemon with this ability are not new to the meta. Whimsicott's priority ecore/leech seed/substitute/taunt puts many more threats into a similar predicament than Aegislash's stance change could ever hope to, and I think it is safe to say we have no reason to ban this little fluffy ball of cute, except perhaps for the psychological discomfort it causes its opponents. In fact, the so called 50/50 dilemma created by Aegislash is very limited in utility. King's shield does not hinder encore,taunt,spore, leech seed, over heat, flame thrower, and earthquake. Earthquake's high distribution allows the entire meta to softly check Aegislash. Further, Aegislash can be forced into a similar dilemma by an opponent using protect.

Are there counters to Aegislash, of course! Is there one Pokemon that can switch into any Aegislash set safely and 1 hit KO, no there isn't. But, that is an unreasonable expectation of a meta. There is no reason that players should be able to make simple prediction when switching into any pokemon. Such a claim implies that pokemon ought to be a game with the same mechanics and depth as rock-paper-scissors.

Aegislash is actually completely healthy to the meta; and therefore, it would be a mistake to ban Aegislash. What can be said about a player able to deal with Aegislash knowing the various tools of destruction it may hide under its shield while being ignorant to which tool this individual Aegislash wields, other than he/she is a far superior player. I do not think we are prepared to say that a player that defeats a team with Aegislash as one of its members was lucky instead of we saying that he/she out played the opponent. This is what is central to my argument: I tend to think that a metagame that puts players into situations in which no one really knows what is going to happen next is much more interesting than not, and interesting over boring is a essentially valuable feature of any meta. Further, I tend to think that Aegislash allows a situation that rewards the best players for being that much better. This is obviously essential and healthy to any meta.

As has already been stated, Some have argued that Aegislash adds a unhealthy luck based feature to the game. I completely disagree. This argument worked for Swag-Key for obvious reasons, but fails for this steel type. If it is true that a healthy metagame is skilled based then Aegislash is a beautiful addition, because being able to predict around it or being able to use it instead of it just becoming a liability allows the opportunity to separate those players that can only make simple predictions and those that can infer predictive maneuvers where others see nothing but pokemon. Examples of such information are, team preview, the opponents playing style, the teams moveset and what variant of pokemon X would compliment said team.

It is from my experience on wifi that I think I can give clear examples of how Aegislash allows the opportunity to display true predictive skill for both user and the opponent of Aegislash. Both examples take place on Wifi and are likely recorded battles on Pokemon Global Link for season 4 in singles battles. My IGN is LU and I am ranked 8th in the US for wifi single battles. In both examples I am the user of Aegislash and my opponent is using the infamous Khangaskhan, one of the first mega evolutions to be banished to Ubers. My Aegislash is a weakness policy special attacking variant with King's shield/shadow sneak/flash cannon/shadow ball.

On the first turn I start with Mamoswine while my opponent sends out Khan. I predict an evolution and a fake out on the first turn. I switch to Aegislash to keep from taking any damage. Here is where it gets tricky. My Aegislash even with an activated weakness policy cannot KO Khan with Flash Cannon. I knew this but my opponent did not. Based on this I predicted my opponent would switch because he has probably over-predicted that my switch was into a sacred sword variant. Why else would I switch into an Aegislash that could not KO Khan? Little does he/she know this is a bluff and I expect that there will be a switch into something that resists sacred sword but takes massive damage from shadow ball. I predicted correctly and he switches into a focus sash Gengar. I predicted s/he would try to save his Gengar by switching back into Khan selecting Flash Cannon. S/he did not know my other two attacking moves and probably predicted correctly that I had shadow sneak. I predicted correctly. S/he switches to Khan who took a direct Flash cannon putting it in KO range. My opponent forfeits the next turn.

My second example starts out exactly the same and I predict exactly the same. Unfortunately, my opponent does not Mega evolve when I switch from my Mamoswine to my Aegislash. Instead, he hits my Aegislash with a power-up punch that activates my weakness policy due to his ability scrappy. With a plus 1 to attack Khan's Earthquake is more than enough to KO my Aegislash, which he does and proceeds to sweep the other two the remainder of my team. The question remains then is “How did the user of the opposing Khan predict my switch without any data of my play style?” The answer is simple. He looked at my team in team preview and concluded that it was a better decision to not mega evolve and power up punch knowing that if he did not do so and I did so happen to pick and switch to my Aegislash on the next turn, he would have wasted a move and depending on the variant I was using he would have completely lost momentum. He had all the relevant information to make the right decision and not only KO my Aegislash, but also precede to sweep my team winning the match.

The examples of my feign and the example of my opponent's correct prediction shows definitively that there is no 50/50 when dealing with Aegislash, and there is no reason to think that a player cannot figure out what variant Aegislash is just by looking at a player's team or watching a players play style. Further, there is no reason to think that countering Aegislash depends wholly on what variant it is or even knowing what variant it is. The player that defeated me made a simple evaluation in team preview and used Khan to lure out something I was planning to feign with anyway. He needed no other data to beat me, which separates himself or herself from many others and further creates a lacuna between players that think facing Aegislash is some sorta 50/50 and those that know better. Sometimes you are wrong sometimes you are right, but neither ever necessarily depend on pure Chance. If it does it is a matter of the player playing the pokemon and not the player. Aegislash rewards those players that deserve to be rewarded and punishes those players that do not, and it was intended to work this way. Pokedex information “Apparently, it can detect the innate qualities of leadership. According to legend, whoever it recognizes is destined to become king.” In the same right, whoever Aegislash does not recognize is not destined to be King.

The last point I will address is the argument of over centralization. It is claimed by the pro-ban Aegislash that Aegislash overcentralizes the metagame in an unhealthy way. Over centralization is suppose to mean something like the meta game is so bent around this pokemon that is is impossible to build a team without building it around this pokemon in one way or another... usually due to it being overpowered in some way. I agree that there is a real bend around this pokemon, but I offer what I think is a more plausible explanation. Aegislash is much like Rotom-W in that it checks so many threats because of its ability and typing that it must be considered and further is able to play a role that there is no other pokemon to play. This I think is the reason for the centralization; not because he is overpowered. For instance, Talonflame checks every grass and fighting type in the game with little help from other Mons except perhaps Mega Picser which he also checks. A big job for such a small bird. Further, the odds are stacked against him due to his stealth rock weakness and the necessary recoil damage he incurs from using either of his powerful stabs. In fact a brave bird that kills Blissey will also kill Talonflame due to the sheer amount of HP of the pink cleric. This fact about Talonflame displays two things. In gen six it was made very difficult to sweep which is shown by Talonflames inability to sweep and his ability to stop the sweep of other pokemon. The sheer amount of powerful physical sweepers and powerful physical moves, and the amount of viable physical walls and features implemented in the game to halt physical sweepers (i.e. priority swagger, King's shield, will-o-wisp) seems to imply that sweeping is intended to be very difficult because it is very powerful. Gen 5 was dominated by powerful physical sweepers because the ability to gain a buff instantly eliminates many counters to said pokemon. Even if the sweep is incomplete it likely smashed a large enough hole in the team that victory is assured. This makes sweeping a risky and powerful opportunistic tactic to gain momentum. The risk is essential for a metagame that is not dominated by powerful attackers. Players now have to really think about their offensive build, since Dragon Dance for their forth move slot is no longer and obvious choice. In this way, Aegislash is a designed general check to set up by rewarding those that risk and predict correctly and punishing those that mis-calculatd. It is for these reason that Aegislash is an essentially important feature of a healthy metagame. It centralizes prediction as a tactic away from opportunistic switching and sweeping. If a metagame is essentially suppose to favor the most skilled player and the most skilled player is one with the most powerful predictive power than we can infer from this that Aegislash is an intended necessary agent. Therefore the reason why the metagame has become so “centralized” around Aegislash is that the pokemon serves an important and essential role and there is no other pokemon that serves this role as of yet. This role, as I have argued is an essential balance by centralizating around prediction.
I was going to go point by point in your post and address the topics you brought up, but before I go any further I have a question, Have you played on Smogon ladders? Because if not there really isnt a conversation to be had as Wifi battles are completely different metas. I mean you talked for about 20 lines about 50/50s involving Kangaskhan, which has no place here. So I am just confused as to the extent of your experience.
 
I was going to go point by point in your post and address the topics you brought up, but before I go any further I have a question, Have you played on Smogon ladders? Because if not there really isnt a conversation to be had as Wifi battles are completely different metas. I mean you talked for about 20 lines about 50/50s involving Kangaskhan, which has no place here. So I am just confused as to the extent of your experience.
i think he was more just pointing out that aegislash requires good skill and prediciton to counter. Maybe his example was a little weak
 
Most terrakion sets run earthquake already anyway, because edgequake. Only set that's really missing out is the SD/RP one, afaik
No. The only things Earthquake hits harder are Aegislash, Nidoqueen, and Golurk (inb4 someone lists mons that Earthquake hits harder, but are already 1-2HKOed). And only Aegislash is used in OU. If it weren't around then Terrakion wouldn't be using the move.
 
I honestly don't think aegislash is anymore overcentralizing than talonflame,charizard,or greninja for that matter.. I see more of them than aegislash himself (however I must still consiture I'm lower on the ladder..). I'm forced to run stealth rocks for the two.. and some kind of priority or scarf for the other. You can't even switch in to these either for those worrying about taking a shadow ball to the face.. try taking a life orb ice beam, hidden power fire, scald, etc.. etc.. (I'm getting a little off topic I know but people need to compare similar if not bigger problems than aegislash himself..)

I remember last gen, it was terrakion, keldeo, and weather in general that I always had to have a counter for.. sometimes even if we weren't using rain, we often carried something which benefited from it anyway.. politoad shaped the whole metagame.. and terrakion+keldeo flooded it as major threats.

Ok enough of other pokemon and previous generations..

Aegislash on the other hand.. I honestly never prepare for it.. I've fought and used SD sweepers, mixed users, and even sub-toxic and it only works half the time for me and the opponent..
Sub-toxic I didn't even think deserved a mention as it's entirely outclassed by any other pokemon who have recovery like sub-toxic-roost gliscor.. and it's faster at the job.

He's no rock paper scissors pokemon like deo, or baton pass teams.. he can be beaten by anything really, you never HAVE to run EQ just for him.. and if he's dominating 5 of your other pokemon then there is something wrong as anybody can easily do the same with others. Once slash is burned or tricked he's screwed the rest of the game.. even sub-toxic is walled completely by blissey and chansey (although that'd just be a PP stall..) king's shield isn't like protect.. and I'm sorry but if you are actually going to go for a contact move you seriously need to change up strategies as you obviously don't know what your doing.. even if your only option is a contact move, you can predict around the king's shield.

Even if healing wish, wish, or heal bell is a requirement on teams to support him.. then he'll require team support and wouldn't even be consitured S-rank in OU let alone ban worthy.

In reguards to aegislash ruining the viability of certain pokemon.. I don't think so.. medicham 1v1 on aegislash can easily kill it.. it can go for the fake out on the king's shield.. since fake out doesn't affect aegislash, (and it'll fail reguardless) it won't get an attack drop, and it can just go fire punch.. Besides, if those threats become unmanagable they'll just get banned too so you're not saving your favorite mega by ridding one mon, instead your putting it up for adoption..

I feel the metagame without slash is a rather lazy one.. this generation after the introduction of mega evolutions, it's all about wall breaking and clicking a priority move whether it's a bullet punch, pure power fake out, sucker punch, or spamming hijumpkick.. With aegislash it actually adds some prediction and skillful thought really than press a button, cripple a switch and then kill it with priority.. It's not that aegislash shapes the metagame or lowers the viability of other pokemon, it's just this gen, while we still lack move tutors for gen 6 pokemon, it's about mostly just trying to kill or cripple a switch in.. aegislash kinda stops this a little actually using critical thinking.

I think head smash should stop being mentioned as a thing.. it's gimmicky and just gives slash recoil.. either way he'll get killed whether he kills mandibuzz and himself or you do..

Speaking of the several sets it can run.. same can be said with alot of pokemon.. Is it is safe to bring in my azumaril or does this garchomp have poison jab? Can I bring in my dragonite while rocks are up on my side or will this jolteon have hidden power ice? Arguing that it's too versitile is just stupid.. greninja is too versitile, breloom can run either priority, spore, rock tomb, or even be a sub toxic/seed and catch you off guard..

Honestly, half the players who complain about aegislash A) just don't want anything to stop their favorite pokemon so it can just nuke everything.. B) don't want any prediction games that actually requir thinking.. and C) Just don't use it enough to relize the pressure and disadvantage the aegislash user himself would have predicting whether or not to KS or go for an attack outa no where..

We banned the deo, genesect, etc because they had no counters, were capable of succeeding in a single job flawlessly.. and when finally killed always gave momentum to a sweeper who could finish the job.. aegislash has no perticular job but being a bulky attacker and if you do not include dedicated counters on your team you can probably still manage to win the game reguardless.. aegislash is easy to kill. His bulk isn't overkill.. people forget that unlike attack, another stat, HP holds them a little back defensive wise.. unless fully defensive, which completely makes that 150 base attack in blade forme significantly weaker without investment. Even after a weakness policy or swords dance.. you realize shadow sneak, boosted, will only do damage equal to an UNBOOSTED M-scizor bullet punch? His speed is also poor.. his borderline speed makes him outsped by not only every pokemon.. but even trick room he can't benefit from.

I can't vote, and actually this is my first post (however I've been watching these threads for about a year), but I'd just leave slash where he is if I had a say so..
 
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A meta will always naturally centralize on something because thats how competitive games work- all strategies have to, one way or another, revolve around the aspects of the game that create the most impact, so I don't think that that alone is a good enough reason to ban aegislash. However I do still think aegislash is a problem. Being able to be a defensive pivot, offensive pivot, sweeper, revenge killer, wallbreaker and spinblocker all at the same time is quite a problem as many people have already mentioned, and there are other sets that also offer sweeping ability- all tied up with the best defensive typing in the game and access to the best coverage attacking moves in the game as well as best offensive attack- shadow ball, and I'm kinda wondering why this suspect didnt already happen.

Metas centralize on stuff, but usually after a while they smooth out, like in the case of mega venusaur and megazard Y who both attracted pokemon who could counter them into the meta, such as psychic landorus for the former. Aegislash hasnt and just can't ever be smoothed out due to its unrivalled movepool, stats, coverage, and typing and I guess its up to us to decide whether that's a problem or not. Personally I think it is. Just stance change means that every aegislash set pretty much regardless of evs or moves can act as a defensive and offensive pivot at the same time, and the stats means that every set has the power to wallbreak. Suddenly we have a pokemon that performs 3 roles admirably with only one moveslot... give it another moveslot and you can give it another role which it will also excel in. etc etc.
 
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3495292/

Just chipping in here again to say that "usage stats" are not a reliable way to discern a Pokemon's usable sets, since the ladder is cluttered with players that stick to the 'trends' and refuse to innovate (or are just bad). Swords Dance may be rarely seen, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I mean look at Substitute's 7% usage and Toxic's 5% usage lol. Swords Dance Aegislash's main advantage is that it can clean up lategame with +2 Shadow Sneaks, something other Aegislash cannot do. Since the set focuses on offense and drops defense, it permits the use of a speedy Aegislash, outspeeding opponents such as Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz, Adamant Bisharp (if you use Jolly), and Mega Mawile, which other sets also cannot do, while shattering bulky opponents such as Amoonguss, AV Conkeldurr, and Mega Venusaur with +2 attacks. I'm not saying Swords Dance is Aegislash's best set, but its ability to bypass traditional counters to the other sets while maintaining dangerous offensive potential still warrants merit. Stance Dance (Swords Dance + King's Shield) is complete and utter garnage though, I'll give you that, and I'm betting that's the reason for its high usage is ladder noobs spamming this very set.
Looking at the rather dubious 46% usage of Shadow Ball, I can infer these stats are not weighted. The high use of Swords Dance confirms this. I would probably concur that Head Smash would not be used that often by the better players. Still, the scrubs underestimate the efficacy of a simple, mixed Aegislash, not to mention the Toxic Stall set, which is a different flavor due to King's Shield (and also derives its some of its efficacy from surprise value, unpredictably due to the offensive prowess of the offensive sets).

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Aegislash forces too many 50/50s and even though this point has been made ad naseum here, I do not think that it has been stressed that the 50/50 does not occur only on the turns where Aegislash is in its Blade form and wants to revert back it its Shield Form. Even if Aegislash incorrectly predicted an attack as it used King's Shield, it could use King's Shield again against a physical attacker in the hope that the RNG would give it the 50/50 to ruin the attacker as it runs into King's Shield. Let us not also forget that using a non-choiced Earthquake against it is a 50/50, since the Aegislash user can use this as an opportunity to get in a flying type, Air Balloon user, Levitator that can also threaten the EQ user. (If the Earthquake is Choiced, then KS and then switching to an EQ immune Pokemon would be safe although the opponent can anticipate that and switch out during the turn you switch out).

Also, its Ghost typing is a both offensive and defensive blessing. Regarding the latter, it provides an immunity to fighting type moves, preventing Conkeldurr from spamming Drain Punch or anyone with a fighting coverage move from trying to deter it from switching in. The other resistances from Ghost (Bug and Poison) are inconsequential since, the Steel typing already affords them a resistance and immunity towards it. It is also quite risible that some anti-banners refer to its four "common" weaknesses in OU as something that makes it fairly easy to take out. The most absurd is that its Ghost weakness can be exploit easily by a competent player since Aegislash presence itself deters the use of Ghost type Pokemon, particularly Gengar, since it can be easily revenged by a Shadow Sneak. Of course, Aegislash is unlikely to switch into a Shadow Ball from Gengar, but it could come in a check it after Gengar KOs something. Ghost is also not a good type for coverage since it does not hit many things super-effectively. I already covered the Ground weakness in the previous paragraph about Earthquake and it can be managed by the Aegislash user, through prediction as an opportunity to give a Ground immune Pokemon a free switch, or can be addressed through Air Balloon. As for Dark, Knock Off is a contact move so King Shield mitigates this highly except in the case of Defiant users, and Dark Pulse is only seen on Greninja. It does have to worry about Foul Play though.

Now, the offensive aspect of Ghost is what I want to focus on, and it actually makes the 50/50 scenarios more "pure", precisely because few Pokemon in OU resist Ghost. In other words, in most cases, one does not need to predict which Pokemon would switch in if one expects his/her opponent to use a predicted King's Shield as an opportunity to switch in hit the switch in with Shadow Ball. For reference, a Modest Shadow Ball (with no boosting item) does 50-60% on a Max HP Landorus-T (89/80 special defenses). Thus, in order to increase the burden of prediction on the Aegislash user, one needs to use a specially defensive Pokemon that can threaten it with non-contact or Special moves or can use it as Support bait (but, to reiterate, this merely increases the burden of prediction since they can be nailed by Aegislash's other common coverage moves such as Sacred Sword and Iron Head). This Aegislash user also retains the advantage of information asymmetry in this case, since it would not reveal the identity of its coverage move, and acts as a deterrent from a Chansey or Sylveon using it as support bait due to the threat of Sacred Sword or Iron Head, so this would not be able to take advantage of a free switch.

Even if one does get a free switch from King's Shield, one still needs to take advantage of it by switching in a Pokemon that can at least check it, and this puts some constraint on team building.
 
Even if one does get a free switch from King's Shield, one still needs to take advantage of it by switching in a Pokemon that can at least check it, and this puts some constraint on team building.
This means any offensive pokemon with earthquake, a fire, dark or ghost move with decent power, I mean charizard, garchomp, excadrill, t tar, hippowdon, landorus and talonflame just to name a few. The list goes on and on, I've seen the walls of calcs showing some of these only 2HKO but people need to stop assuming it is always going to be at 100% escecially because it is so slow. Seriously though aegislash is weak to some of the most common and most spam-able attacking types in the game. Earthquake is insanely common because it is a great move that just about everything gets and it gets around king's shield as well, sure aegislash can hit stuff hard in return if it lives but so what it only really gets to use 3 slots for attacks. But regardless the point is that nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it.
 

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
This means any offensive pokemon with earthquake, a fire, dark or ghost move with decent power, I mean charizard, garchomp, excadrill, t tar, hippowdon, landorus and talonflame just to name a few. The list goes on and on, I've seen the walls of calcs showing some of these only 2HKO but people need to stop assuming it is always going to be at 100% escecially because it is so slow. Seriously though aegislash is weak to some of the most common and most spam-able attacking types in the game. Earthquake is insanely common because it is a great move that just about everything gets and it gets around king's shield as well, sure aegislash can hit stuff hard in return if it lives but so what it only really gets to use 3 slots for attacks. But regardless the point is that nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it.
You're right in that Aegislash is weak to common attacking types, especially ground and dark, but that's looking at the scenario way too simplistically. All the pokemon you listed take a level of risk in getting in on Aegislash. All but excadrill get crippled by the sub-toxic set. Only Specially defensive hippowdon cares to stomach a shadow ball. Assault-vest Excadrill, who can fair well in taking a shadow ball, risks switching in on a sacred sword (it will survive, but will no longer be able to switch in again). Aegislash does have plenty of checks, but it can too reliably deal with all of them while sacrificing little to no utility.

On a side note, after getting reqs, I've noticed that denissss's new baton pass team is still pretty ridiculous on this ladder, especially with aegislash gone, allowing Espeon to run a physically defensive set, so if you're struggling to finish up your requirements, that's a pretty easy way to do it... Sorry to everyone I tormented!
 
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This means any offensive pokemon with earthquake, a fire, dark or ghost move with decent power, I mean charizard, garchomp, excadrill, t tar, hippowdon, landorus and talonflame just to name a few. The list goes on and on, I've seen the walls of calcs showing some of these only 2HKO but people need to stop assuming it is always going to be at 100% escecially because it is so slow. Seriously though aegislash is weak to some of the most common and most spam-able attacking types in the game. Earthquake is insanely common because it is a great move that just about everything gets and it gets around king's shield as well, sure aegislash can hit stuff hard in return if it lives but so what it only really gets to use 3 slots for attacks. But regardless the point is that nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it.
As I stated before, Earthquake is quite predictable, and that can also be exploited by the Aegislash user. It also forces many 50/50 scenarios, in addition to the obvious ones from King's Shield.

I already covered the issue about Dark and Ghost moves, as many of the former are contact moves and Aegislash deters the use of Ghost type Pokemon (except Sableye) and Ghost is a bad type for coverage. Even Greninja's Dark Pulse doesn't KO it, and Aegislash can KO back with Sacred Sword. (Most likely not an ideal trade off for the Aegislash user, but such a trade off to eliminate Greninja while severely compromise Aegislash tanking ability, may be tactically necessary depending on the context of game.) The characteristics (access to priority and King Shield's) of Aegislash mitigates these weaknesses as a potential issue for it. Air Balloon also makes it harder for Earthquake users to play around it. Lastly, many fire type moves in this meta are contact moves.

Also note that Earthquake is a sub-optimal move simply because many Pokemon are immune to it; unlike Aegislash's Shadow Ball, it is not nearly as spammable. Moreover, many Pokemon that use Earthquake have Choice Band to grant Earthquake pseudo-STAB when it is used, and that can also be played around more easily too.
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Remember that the 50/50s from King Shield are quite different than say using Sucker Punch on Bisharp. In the later case, a correct prediction would be an opportunity for a free switch for the opponent while Aegislash can revert to its Shield Form and have its high defenses again. Many attackers do not have support moves that can exploit the predicted King's Shield turn and can at best use the King's Shield turn as a free switch in. In that case, the switch-in has to deal with an Aegislash in its Shield Form, which cannot be OHKOed by non-STAB, unboosted super-effective attacks (Adamant Lando-T's Earthquake does 83-100% on the Shield Form), at full health.
 
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While I agree with you that taunt mandibuzz is a fantastic aegislash counter, you now just admitted that you need two pokes to effectively handle aegislash, and that is the point the pro ban people are trying to make. However I am surprised more people arent mentioning taunt mandibuzz because that is without question the best attempt at a counter. Especially with the head smash variant being one of the less common sets.

However it is important to not be short sighted. If more and more people use taunt mandibuzz, more and more people will run head smash aegislash, and then people will change their counter to counter head smash varient and so on and so forth. THe point I am poorly trying to make is that aegislash defines the meta, and whenever his popular sets change so does the meta. That just doesnt seem to be a very healthy presence and it it why I would like him gone.

Hopefully you got the jist of my point, if not I will gladly attempt to clarify.
I think the fact that aegislash needs to change its move set to handle its checks and counters is reason not to ban it. Many pokemon do just that and forces the meta to adapt and evolve and there's nothing wrong with this in my opinion. Also head-smash only does 65-73 percent, coming from an adamant max attack aegislash, to a max hp, max defense mandibuzz in this case, mandibuzz is faster and can either OHKO with foul play, do a lot of damage with knock off, or roost of the damage halving the next head smash.(Also, head smash doesn't have to best accuracy either.) So all in all, head smash is a bad way to deal with mandizbuzz. Also, this 50/50 argument for the pro-ban side is also a bad argument because what people are not realizing is that aegislash has the same risk/reweard chances as their opponent. Also king shield doesn't block status moves is thing to remember as well. So it's fair and even in my opinion.

There are also plenty of pokemon that can put aegislash at bay such as, heatran, rotom-wash, landorus(both formes), and venusaur. And niche pokemon like clefable, togekiss, and diggersby can check/counter aegislash as well.
 
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