np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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Aegislash is not the only Pokemon defining the meta, last I checked. I seem to remember a certain pair of Fire/Flying types that also define our metagame. Perhaps Aegislash makes a bigger impact on the metagame--and likewise will leave the largest crater--but he's not alone in shaping what our metagame is.

EDIT: Jukain, could you explain what you mean by a "stale metagame"?
 
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That is an extremely entitled position. Competitive games do not care if you "like" the meta. That has nothing to do with it. I know A LOT of people who despised the Gen 5 weather meta (myself included). Did it get banned? No. If you do not like the metagame you either:
a) Suck it up
b) Don't play
c) Go play VGC or UU or any other of the tiers in this game while you wait for the next game
If I don't like a Standard meta in MTG I just play Sealed or another format until there is a meta I enjoy. Why I dont do is go to the forums and call for te banning of X cards because "they make the meta boring"
The fact is that we ban for ourselves, we are a community that is making a meta for us (the community) to play, so if the majority of the people find the meta boring, stale, uncompetitive or matchup-reliant we should change something even if it is somewhat unfair and we are banning a balanced pokémon, we are aiming to achieve the most competitive meta (or I could say the best meta for the most people possible) we can and not only trying to ban everything that is broken.

BTW gen V is a terrible example because Rain was not even put up for a suspect vote, which IMO was a mistake and the result is that a huge part of the community doesn't miss that meta at all.
 

Jukain

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Aegislash is not the only Pokemon defining the meta, last I checked. I seem to remember a certain pair of Fire/Flying types that also define our metagame. Perhaps Aegislash makes a bigger impact on the metagame--and likewise will leave the largest crater--but he's not alone in shaping what our metagame is.

EDIT: Jukain, could you explain what you mean by a "stale metagame"?
I mean the same, similar builds of teams in general because the presence of Aegislash encourages cores of teams from a select group that can beat Aegislash, which get similar support and in turn lead to similar teams.
 
Aegislash is not the only Pokemon defining the meta, last I checked. I seem to remember a certain pair of Fire/Flying types that also define our metagame. Perhaps Aegislash makes a bigger impact on the metagame--and likewise will leave the largest crater--but he's not alone in shaping what our metagame is.

EDIT: Jukain, could you explain what you mean by a "stale metagame"?
Of course it isn't the only one. You would be silly to think that. There will always be multiple threats ruling the metagame. However that isn't to say that one cannot be dominant ver the others. Aegis is by far the most dominant. He carries the most weight in the tier just by being present. I won't delve into that further because its already been done by many others such as Jukain.

And by a stale metagame he means one that doesn't change and is very repetitive, I think.
 
Aegislash is not the only Pokemon defining the meta, last I checked. I seem to remember a certain pair of Fire/Flying types that also define our metagame. Perhaps Aegislash makes a bigger impact on the metagame--and likewise will leave the largest crater--but he's not alone in shaping what our metagame is.
As a person who has been behind every Suspect ban so far, I can confidently say that Talonflame is nowhere near as bad as Aegislash or any other potential suspects. Talonflame is extremely frail, slower than a lot of things that threaten him, he automatically loses to just about any Thunder type move, takes 50% from Stealth Rock, making switching him in almost a death wish, is severely damaged by both of his STAB moves, is halted by just about any non-Ferrothorn wall, especially Slowbro, and his only true niche is priority Brave Bird. He is nowhere near as big a threat as Aegislash is. Honestly, Mega Char Y/X are both bigger threats and should be suspected before him, if he even ends up getting suspected.

But, anyways, concerning Aegislash;

Why is Aegislash considered meta-braking at this point? There isn't one solid answer to this: he's got a touch of everything. That's pretty much the problem with him: it isn't one big factor, like Swagger, the Deos, or Baton Pass, it's a bunch of small problems that add up to one giant problem.

Let's throw out all "mindgames" that relate to him, and all player-based decisions, and focus on the facts for Aegislash: He has a cumulative 300 Base Def/Sp.Def stat in Shield forme, and a cumulatie 300 Base Atk/Sp.Atk stat in Sword forme. He's also one of the slowest pokemon in OU, with a 60 base stat, only switches to Sword forme after he's attacked unless under the effects of Trick Room or against a pokemon like Slowbro, Escavalier, or Ferrothorn. His coverage makes it so that only one OU pokemon (Bisharp) resists both STABs, and he can run Physical, Special, or Mix sets incredibly effectively, as his Physical and Special attack stats are 150 each in Sword forme. He's immune to 3 different attack types, one of which is incredibly common (Fighting), and King's Shield lowers the attack stat of any pokemon that attacks him with a Physical contact attack.

Concerning King's Shield: while everybody seems to argue that it isn't as effective as people make it out to be, they forget that even if a status move or Hazard move is used when King's Shield is correctly predicted, Aegislash still converts to Shield forme thanks to the move, meaning he goes back to his incredible defenses, and even if affected with a status is still a wall now. He also does not switch to Sword forme unless he's attacking, meaning very few pokemon can actually attack him in said forme, if any.

Yes, Aegislash is weak to Fire, Ground, and Dark, all three of which are extremely common attack types. However, unless played stupidly, he will always take three or more turns to take down, thanks to King's Shield, and can deal an insane amount of damage in the meantime, thanks to his two STABs.

While I understand where the anti-ban arguments are coming from, I still support banning of him.
 
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HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
Initially, I was against banning Aegislash. And I still believe that it's not broken. However, it's usage adds an unnecessary element of luck to a game that already suffers from things like Critical Hits and moves that lack accuracy. The 50-50s that Aegislash brings into play are nothing but guessing games that are annoying, to say the least. It was nice and refreshing to play in a Aegislash-less metagame, although it gave Mega Gardevoir and Medicham the license to wreak havoc. I'm not completely sold on the idea but I guess that those arguing that Aegislash is unhealthy for the metagame aren't entirely wrong.
 
I read it and the only answer i see is that we shouln;t keep it just cuz it keeps other potensionally broken pokes on check,and i find that logic false cuz that is what keeps the meta interesting cuz right now those pokes can still be used, if we ban aegi and then those pokes need to be banned too how is that for a better metagame when we will have fewer options to make teams? :S
There are well over 30 viable pokemon to make teams within OU currently, possibly more in the future.

You'll be fine.

As said multiple times your argument is not an actual argument for the Suspect test. If other pokemon become too powerful because of Aegislash being gone then we'll deal with them as time comes. It is NOT in ANY WAY a legitimate argument.
 
I mean the same, similar builds of teams in general because the presence of Aegislash encourages cores of teams from a select group that can beat Aegislash, which get similar support and in turn lead to similar teams.
Thanks for the clarification; I can totally get with that reasoning.

To everyone saying that Aegislash is the most dominant of the defining threats:

I know. I said it in my post. What I was getting at is that people are acting like banning Aegi will depolarize the meta--it will not. It will drive the meta further towards those that already control it. I'm not going to derail the thread, but I am open to conversation if you would like to PM me.
 

LeoLancaster

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Thanks for the clarification; I can totally get with that reasoning.

To everyone saying that Aegislash is the most dominant of the defining threats:

I know. I said it in my post. What I was getting at is that people are acting like banning Aegi will depolarize the meta--it will not. It will drive the meta further towards those that already control it. I'm not going to derail the thread, but I am open to conversation if you would like to PM me.
It's not derailing the thread, the potential effects of an Aegi ban is perfectly on topic.

Anyway, I disagree that the meta will become more centered around other the other current top threats in the case of an Aegi ban. Char X, Mawile, etc are certainly meta-defining, but with Aegi banned teambuilding is less stressed (Cham/Garde/Hera aren't as hard to prepare for as Aegi, even with him gone), so it'll be easier to teambuild to beat Char X/Mawile etc. Thus, if anything, the meta will become less centered around those threats.
 
Although this is my first forum post, I have been playing OU and other metas for a long time so please dont let the fact that this is my first post decrease its validity.

Although I agree that Aegislash is a very aggravating Pokémon to battle, and its pseudo BST of 720 is ridiculous, he definitely has plenty of counters. Specifically:
1. A taunt user can keep him in blade forme, which has such menial defenses he can be OHKO'ed pretty easily
2. Anything bulky and slow enough to to survive a hit from Aegislash and then hit him decently while in blade forme
3. A really hard hitter packing a super effective move that can hurt him plenty even in Shield forme (most megas, garchomp, sometimes gengar).
Aegislash is by far one of the most predictable Pokemon in the current meta so anyone smart enough to know Aegislash is about to use King's Shield gets a free switch in, set up move, etc. Also, banning Aegislash is really just not letting people use something because its too common and is annoying, when a ban should be about whether or not something is broken, and Aegislash just has way too many things that keep it checked.

tl;dr: Just leave him in OU
 
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I think banning Aegi takes a step towards a more defensive metagame? It's much more difficult to deal with Aegi in its entirety on stall than it is on an offensive team where at the least you can fit a couple checks and not have to have perfect swaps.

Your assessment of Aegi's best sets is subjective. I've heard people who think that LO is the best Aegislash set (like Toxzn). Your assessment is based on how you build and what you like to use, because there's no way ANYTHING is objectively Aegislash's best set. Lando-T, godly Aegislash check that is outsped and 2HKOed by LO Shadow Ball. Excadrill, stellar Aegi check that can at best revenge kill because it isn't switching in ever, and fears Air Balloon. Mandibuzz, stellar Aegi answer that loses to three movesets (and even the KS attacks one if that has Toxic). Bisharp is a fine Aegi check I guess, though is outsped and KOed by fast sets. Zapdos, which is exploitable af because you can just waste Roost PP from the 50% you do and eventually get rid of it, or pop with a Toxic. Torn-T which can't even do shit so idk what you're saying ?_? Greninja which has to forgo coverage for Dark Pulse if it even wants to hit it that hard. Lando and Chomp are fine. All these amazing Aegi answers! There's no way in hell you build a team and are like, oh, I have Aegislash all covered. It puts constraints on your teambuilding to carry multiple of these checks and is one of the primary things you have to actively think about. The other thing is that Aegi weak teams are usually bad, more so than Thundurus or something which are easier to check and deal with, and don't have such different sets that you need answers for all of them. I am not forced to carry 3 Thundurus checks on my offensive team, but I almost have to (or at least 2) if I want not to be Aegi weak. Because Aegi is on a whole other level than those Pokemon. Anyways I don't think this metagame tree is healthy at all.

Aegislash
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Things that beat Aegi or at least do decently against it
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Things that lose to Aegi

Because this is exactly the polarizing effect Aegislash has on the tier. Liiiiike BW wasn't

Drizzle
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Things that beat Drizzle
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Things that lose to Drizzle

Having multiple centralizing forces in a tier (say a group of 4-7 Pokemon) is not unhealthy, but a tier centering around one Pokemon is unhealthy and illogical (before you bring up GSC Snorlax would be banned by today's standards). Because the metagame becomes stale (let's be real, how much has the meta changed recently? same boring stall builds, similar offensive builds) as teams are generally better when they run similar builds that are prepared for this one threat and the metagame around this one threat.

Basically you are underplaying its versatility and the overall staleness of the meta that is so much of Aegi's fault.
1. Good pokemon are versatile. See: gengar, rotom-W, scizor, charizard, landorus, thundurus, lucario. Aegislash is one of a big handful of good pokemon. Versatile pokemon tend to have "no hard counters" because they have different sets for a reason.

2. If everything had a hard counter, pokemon wouldn't exist as a (passable) metagame because stall would be #1 and everything would come down to hax/PP stalling. Rather, pokemon was a game designed to eventually end. It is offensive by nature. "No hard counters" should stop being a thing people post about. A handful of pokemon have no true counters, and thank god for that.

3. 50/50s are a part of pokemon, and pokemon by its design is not a perfect metagame. Will gengar shadow ball or focus blast? Is his lead landorus scarved or physically defensive? Is charizard X or Y? Will I break out of sleep this turn or next? Will aegislash shield or attack? Get used to it brother. Pokemon is a turn based game involving prediction and luck. There is also a move substitute that exists that every pokemon can learn that is great at scouting sets and even setting up on this "50/50" king's shield.

4. There are a great number of aegislash checks, and IMO you are exaggerating to great lengths about how centralizing he is, to the point where teams feel that they are overwhelmed by aegislash? Or that their entire team is built to check Aegislash? Anything remotely bulky can check aegislash. See: torn-t (scout set, knock off), char-x, suicune, zygarde, mandibuzz, bisharp, ferrothorn (especially spdef with rocky helm), spdef hippo, zapdos, spdef lando-t, mega scizor, mega venusaur, amoongus, chesnaught, etc........

The meta will always shift, and good players will always be ahead of the curve. Maybe I suck but I personally think zygarde is an undiscovered pokemon that is an amazing answer to aegislash.

5. Comparing aegislash's force on the meta to drizzle is hilariously out of proportion.

Conclusion: great pokemon, a little overcentralizing, and so completely prepared for that it has "evolved" to use a shitty sub-toxic set. OU
 
if you think uu is anything like fire type spam you probably should actually play the tier lol instead of making unfounded statements like these

whats different though is that aegislash has clearly shaped the ou meta around it to a massive extent, and aegislash is just stupidly versatile and can basically do everything it wants to.
???

Also you are exaggerating, greatly infact.


Sure Aegislash has high stats, but did you ever stop to think about what base power even means for it?

Aegislash's Shadowball power max invested vs uninvested Rotom-W Hydropump.

438 x 1.2 = 525.6 effective damage.
240 x 1.65 = 396 effective damage.

32% more damage. So Rotom-W doing 40% would have Aegis do ~53%. That's not much at all, considering what Aegislash sacrifices to have stats based like that.

Rotom-W has infinitely better typing and utility, always keeping its stats. Aegislash has to forgoe its defensive stats for at least a turn if it wants to attack; this causes it to be more predictable and have to KS Half the time wasting a turn if it wants to brawl.

Some might think this forces too many 50/50s; well get used to it in a setup metagame. You shoud learn some risk vs reward, since it seems everyone this gen has fucking forgot that and just clicks buttons randomly.

Guess we should ban Rotom-W now right?

Honestly this whole test is a waste, if you want the real king of 50/50s we should be suspecting Charizard's mega forms.
 

alexwolf

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I think banning Aegi takes a step towards a more defensive metagame? It's much more difficult to deal with Aegi in its entirety on stall than it is on an offensive team where at the least you can fit a couple checks and not have to have perfect swaps.

Your assessment of Aegi's best sets is subjective. I've heard people who think that LO is the best Aegislash set (like Toxzn). Your assessment is based on how you build and what you like to use, because there's no way ANYTHING is objectively Aegislash's best set. Lando-T, godly Aegislash check that is outsped and 2HKOed by LO Shadow Ball. Excadrill, stellar Aegi check that can at best revenge kill because it isn't switching in ever, and fears Air Balloon. Mandibuzz, stellar Aegi answer that loses to three movesets (and even the KS attacks one if that has Toxic). Bisharp is a fine Aegi check I guess, though is outsped and KOed by fast sets. Zapdos, which is exploitable af because you can just waste Roost PP from the 50% you do and eventually get rid of it, or pop with a Toxic. Torn-T which can't even do shit so idk what you're saying ?_? Greninja which has to forgo coverage for Dark Pulse if it even wants to hit it that hard. Lando and Chomp are fine. All these amazing Aegi answers! There's no way in hell you build a team and are like, oh, I have Aegislash all covered. It puts constraints on your teambuilding to carry multiple of these checks and is one of the primary things you have to actively think about. The other thing is that Aegi weak teams are usually bad, more so than Thundurus or something which are easier to check and deal with, and don't have such different sets that you need answers for all of them. I am not forced to carry 3 Thundurus checks on my offensive team, but I almost have to (or at least 2) if I want not to be Aegi weak. Because Aegi is on a whole other level than those Pokemon. Anyways I don't think this metagame tree is healthy at all.

Aegislash
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Things that beat Aegi or at least do decently against it
|||||||
Things that lose to Aegi

Because this is exactly the polarizing effect Aegislash has on the tier. Liiiiike BW wasn't

Drizzle
|||||||
Things that beat Drizzle
|||||||
Things that lose to Drizzle

Having multiple centralizing forces in a tier (say a group of 4-7 Pokemon) is not unhealthy, but a tier centering around one Pokemon is unhealthy and illogical (before you bring up GSC Snorlax would be banned by today's standards). Because the metagame becomes stale (let's be real, how much has the meta changed recently? same boring stall builds, similar offensive builds) as teams are generally better when they run similar builds that are prepared for this one threat and the metagame around this one threat.

Basically you are underplaying its versatility and the overall staleness of the meta that is so much of Aegi's fault.
I don't agree that stall has a hard time against Aegislash, not when they typically carry 2-3 checks or counters to it. I am talking about the Lefties sets btw, not the LO set, because the LO set is a dedicated wallbreaker that fares a lot worse against offense, and gives up the ability to check any Pokemon you could before with a few exceptions. Basically, Aegislash will either have to choose between being more effective against offensive teams (with Lefties sets, or even Air Balloon), or being more effective against defensive teams, but it can't do both at the same time. And if we are talking about dedicated wallbreakers that can also be somewhat useful against offense, we already have a ton of them, such as Kyurem-B, Char Y (needs Pursuit support but fine), SD Mega Mawile, Knock Off and Calm Mind Landorus, Diggersby, and Mega Gardevoir, as well as a lot of stallbreakers. Aegislash is nothing special in the wallbreaking department, and thus doesn't really trouble stall teams anymore than any good OU wallbreaker that stall teams need to prepare for.

On the other hand, without Aegislash, a ton of solely offensive threats become way more effective. We are talking about Latios, Latias, Mega Pinsir (now able to use CC to do more damage to Skarmory and Rotom-W, two if its biggest counters), CB Talonflame (one less bulky Flying-type resist to worry about), Mega Scizor (more flexible moveset, as Knock Off is not a must anymore),Terrakion, Breloom, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Lucario, LO Tornadus-T, and Staraptor. Most of those Pokemon lose one of their biggest counters if Aegislash leaves, which greatly improves most of them. I hope i don't even have ton talk about how better Latios, Latias, Terrakion, Breloom, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham will be with Aegislash gone.

And what defensive Pokemon become more viable to compensate for this? Not a lot really, as most Pokemon weak to Ghost are not good defensive Pokemon anyway, due to their unfortunate weakness to Pursuit and Knock Off, and some other factors (Celebi facing big competition with other Grass-types). And even though some defensive Pokemon that were Aegislash bait (Chansey) won't have to worry about this anymore, the fact that they will have to worry about a dozen improved offensive Pokemon is what matters more, and what leaves an even more offensive metagame in the end. It's not like there aren't good Aegislash checks or counters to form a solid defensive core with, but good luck like trying to deal with Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and SD Lucario with defensive cores, or cores that rely on defensive synergy in general.

Regardless if the assessment i made is subjective or not, the fact that great and multiple universal Aegislash checks exist can't be denied. SpD Gliscor, SpD Hippo, SpD Amoonguss, and SpD Mega Venusaur can deal with any of the three of Aegislash's most effective sets (3 attacks, SubToxic, mixed), while all of Aegislash's sets are easily checkable with two Pokemon, something you need for every major threat. There are a lot of universal Aegislash checks, and a ton of checks to it in general, to blame Aegislash for punishing wrong switches too hard with its unpredictability.

Also, i like how instead of focusing on the universal checks i mentioned, you focused on the situational checks, and of course you used Aegislash sets that beat those checks to show how shitty checks they are, as if they are supposed to take on Aegislash by themselves. Oh and AV Torn-T has Knock Off and Heat Wave to deal with 3 attacks Aegislash, while being able to easily tank two of Aegislash's hits, and in general it can scout any Aegislash set with minimal risk, except from the SD set, so yeah it's a very useful Pokemon to use in combination with another check to deal with Aegi.

It puts constraints on your teambuilding to carry multiple of these checks and is one of the primary things you have to actively think about.
Every major threat does that, this proves nothing about Aegislash's brokeness.

As for Aegislash weak teams, such teams don't exist, because they are shitty in general, not only against Aegislash. If you are talking about teams that are only a bit weak to Aegislash then this is manageable and can be dealt with by good play, and is also true for any top tier threat. All teams are weak to something good, but as long as you are only a bit weak to it and have ways to play around it, this threat doesn't reduce said team's effectiveness. And the reason that teams that are really Aegi weak don't exist is because there are a ton of top-tier threats that check Aegislash, threats that do a ton of stuff other than dealing with Aegislash, and threats that you put on your team without even thinking about Aegislash. This is what happens when you are weak to three of the best attacking-types in OU and you are slow as fuck.

Finally, what you said about Aegislash is an exaggeration, because you only need 1-2 Pokemon to deal with it, and then you have 4 slots remaining, which can be anything like: 3 neutral Aegi mons + 1 weak, 2 neutral + 2 weak, 4 neutral, or even 3 weak and another check. But your last statement is very generic and subjective and can't really be argued, so i will not expand more.


----------------------------


So basically, what i said in a nutshell is that Aegislash has a lot of checks and counters that prevent it from being an overpowered Pokemon in OU (which means that it's not too strong as a Pokemon separately, whether this means offense, walling, or support), and also makes the metagame less offensive that it would be without it, which makes it a positive presence in OU (this is subjective, but i think that the metagame doesn't need to get more offensive).
 
From playing on the test ladder today, I want to back up a few opinions. Aegislash counters a good amount of things, so banning him has (at least in the test ladder) made more problems then it fixed. I think he does a better job balancing parts of the meta then he does unbalancing it as a whole. I for one would rather deal with aegislash every other game rather than a megavoir/Megacham/Latios every game. Also, if aegislash sweeps your whole team, then fix that instead of banning something that most competent players are capable of countering. And if we do ban Aegislash, don't do it because it's broken or causes 50/50 issues because there's worse offenders of each (charizard's usage stats are 48% for each stone), let's just ban him because he causes a boring metagame and making winning often too easy
 
From playing on the test ladder today, I want to back up a few opinions. Aegislash counters a good amount of things, so banning him has (at least in the test ladder) made more problems then it fixed. I think he does a better job balancing parts of the meta then he does unbalancing it as a whole. I for one would rather deal with aegislash every other game rather than a megavoir/Megacham/Latios every game. Also, if aegislash sweeps your whole team, then fix that instead of banning something that most competent players are capable of countering. And if we do ban Aegislash, don't do it because it's broken or causes 50/50 issues because there's worse offenders of each (charizard's usage stats are 48% for each stone), let's just ban him because he causes a boring metagame and making winning often too easy
It's been brought up before that "broken checking broken" isn't really a decent argument for no ban. If we have to ban other things after this ban, so be it. I am personally loving in the influx of Mega Gard, Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross (all of which to be honest still aren't that common). As I result, I'm getting to use victini and jirachi more often, both of which hard check mega gard.

To be honest, it's made the metagame quite a bit more diverse, enjoyable, and challenging. Previously, there were only ~20 threats I had to account for, and I knew exactly how much speed everything ran, how much damage it did to all of my pokemon. Strategies were very obvious and often it allowed me to come up on top. Now I am actually struggling a bit because the meta is very different, which I like very much.
 
Well unless I get some motivation later on I am giving up reqs, its too bothersome and games like this happen on the regular http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-142124583

But anyway, I just want to say that despite hax, I have been having fun on the suspect ladder, which is something I cant say about the OU ladder. I mean instead of teams being built around, Charx, mawile, gyarados, I am seeing teams being built around mega aerodactyl, alakazam, gardevoir, heracross, megacham, and they are all doing well. The metagame is suddenly a place where I am seeing fun and creative teams that are also viable in OU. I no longer am able to know the sets of the entire team just by looking at the team. Even pokemon that were common now have different sets that change how you play around them, everything is just more challenging, and competitive. The ENTIRE metagame has shifted and even if aegislash isnt "broken" in the traditional sense, I hope you guys will quit doing everything exactly by the book and only banning pokemon that meet the exact definition, and realize that this meta is more fun to play in.

This is a completely opinionated post, but I feel all the arguments have been beaten to death and wanted to share my thoughts on the meta post laddering. At the end of the day we all have the power to make the meta more fun and competitive, who cares if we have to ban a pokemon that may or may not be broken, there is no question its overcentralizing and I just really dont want to go back to the old meta where aegislash is everywhere and has the whole meta under his influence.
 

Jukain

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I wasn't gonna respond to this post but it appears people think it's good so...
1. Good pokemon are versatile. See: gengar, rotom-W, scizor, charizard, landorus, thundurus, lucario. Aegislash is one of a big handful of good pokemon. Versatile pokemon tend to have "no hard counters" because they have different sets for a reason.

2. If everything had a hard counter, pokemon wouldn't exist as a (passable) metagame because stall would be #1 and everything would come down to hax/PP stalling. Rather, pokemon was a game designed to eventually end. It is offensive by nature. "No hard counters" should stop being a thing people post about. A handful of pokemon have no true counters, and thank god for that.

3. 50/50s are a part of pokemon, and pokemon by its design is not a perfect metagame. Will gengar shadow ball or focus blast? Is his lead landorus scarved or physically defensive? Is charizard X or Y? Will I break out of sleep this turn or next? Will aegislash shield or attack? Get used to it brother. Pokemon is a turn based game involving prediction and luck. There is also a move substitute that exists that every pokemon can learn that is great at scouting sets and even setting up on this "50/50" king's shield.

4. There are a great number of aegislash checks, and IMO you are exaggerating to great lengths about how centralizing he is, to the point where teams feel that they are overwhelmed by aegislash? Or that their entire team is built to check Aegislash? Anything remotely bulky can check aegislash. See: torn-t (scout set, knock off), char-x, suicune, zygarde, mandibuzz, bisharp, ferrothorn (especially spdef with rocky helm), spdef hippo, zapdos, spdef lando-t, mega scizor, mega venusaur, amoongus, chesnaught, etc........

The meta will always shift, and good players will always be ahead of the curve. Maybe I suck but I personally think zygarde is an undiscovered pokemon that is an amazing answer to aegislash.

5. Comparing aegislash's force on the meta to drizzle is hilariously out of proportion.

Conclusion: great pokemon, a little overcentralizing, and so completely prepared for that it has "evolved" to use a shitty sub-toxic set. OU
"Good Pokemon are versatile" is oversimplifying and you're not applying how their versatility affects their impact on the meta. Scizor is not that versatile, and every set has similar counters. It can run an SD set with one variation on one move, it can run a Defog set that is easier to deal with than SD, and an unimpressive CB set. Gengar has one good set (SubWisp Taunt Shadow Ball). Rotom-W has one set with one move, one item, and one EV spread variation. Charizard has two Megas so of course it's decently versatile, but even that's overexaggerating because you can deduce it typically on Team Preview down to the Mega and the general moveset. Landorus has 3 sets with pretty similar counters, though slightly different checks (RP). Yea Thundy is versatile. Lucario???

Aegislash has more versatility in one set than almost every single Pokemon on that list you just gave me. And it has 3 other sets. These sets share different checks/counters. And unlike other Pokemon, it comes at almost no cost to its overall effectiveness. Thundurus runs Psychic for example. Now it has no Focus Blast and is open to a bunch of things. NP HP Flying? That lack of HP Ice coverage is gonna hurt you one hell of a lot. Aegislash loses almost nothing by altering its moveset to fit what its team needs. Its versatility is beyond anything you just said.

Most things have viable counters. Like, almost every S Rank and A+ Rank has counters (looking at you, Mega Mawile). Or at least things that can cover the majority of their common movesets. Go ahead, name me something for Aegislash. You can't. Literally every single Aegislash answer can be dealt with by one of its equally viable sets. In fact I can hardly name anything that beats more than 1 or 2 of its common movesets. Pokemon do not have to have hard counters. They have to have reasonable counters/hard checks/switch-ins to most of their common sets, though, and there are zero for Aegislash.

How is anything you stated a 50/50. Lando-T has clues to determine its set (team structure, is there SR?) and is very easy to scout, and swaps to both sets are the same. idk how that's a 50/50, it's more like a 90/10 where you make a safe play to scout it. Charizard X or Y is not hard from Team Preview alone, as there are easy clues to a good Char Y team (stuff like Pursuit, 2x weather) and Char X is the only one on defensive builds. Even if you can't figure it out, it's far from a 50/50; you simply make your best swap. You don't even know what a 50/50 is and you're telling me to just deal with it? lol, take a hike.

SpD Lando-T and Zygarde. lol moving on not anything 'remotely bulky' can beat it, nobody runs Heat Wave on Torn-T alexwolf . You mentioned some of its checks, all of which fail vs certain common sets. Also Ferro has to run Knock Off to even beat Aegislash, and loses to SD. Mega Venu just wastes Synthesis PP because it has to heal every time and loses to fast Life Orb sets. Anyways we've been over this. One more thing: why are you taking a small part of my argument and twisting it to act like you have a point? The Drizzle comparison was almost irrelevant. And uh the SubToxic set is really good???

Gonna respond to alexwolf's argument here real quick.

Teams that are weak to Aegi aren't seen in high-level play because they have to be scrapped. Building for WCOP, and what I know from people like Nog, Aegi-weak teams often just have to be scrapped start from square 1. This plethora of top-tier checks doesn't exist. Priority 1 is Aegi checks. I get to the end of a team, 'oh fuck this is Aegi weak', my team sucks. It puts constraints on teambuilding that many top players recognize, which you don't. Maybe because you run Heat Wave Torn-T and WoW Fire Blast Talonflame you have less issues, but this is silly and irrelevant. Also nobody uses SpD Venusaur. And is SpD Hippowdon not heavily crippled by a Toxic? Hippowdon already needs high health to avoid a 2HKO from Aegi, Toxic really makes it even easier to wear down than usual (Hippowdon is easily worn down). You underplayed that big time. SpD Amoonguss is an incredibly solid check, not denying that.

The difference between Aegi and other offensive threats is that it is incredibly hard to revenge kill due to its enormous bulk. Things like Thundurus, Charizard X I can manage with something like a ScarfChomp, because they have much less bulk, more exploitable weaknesses, and less spammable attacks than Shadow Ball. Aegislash checks have to be able to take a hit because most cannot kill it in one hit and Shadow Ball has few resists/immunes. It's hard as hell to wear down, too, unlike some of these things ESPECIALLY Thundurus and doesn't have something like a SR weakness to exploit. The requirements in terms of amount and sturdiness of checks is different for Aegislash than any other top-tier threat.

Latios and Latias are far from my biggest concerns with stall. Chansey (if it's your sole switch-in you need max HP but that's a minor point, it's also basically mandatory on stall teams anyways) and Clefable are sturdy defensive answers. Also there are options like Mega Scizor (sans HP Fire). Latios is also only a concern in terms of putting pressure if it has Roost, as otherwise it can so easily be worn down. It's already been established that these Megas don't get /that/ much better and that they have reasonable defensive answers that are common on stall teams anyways, barring Taunt Mega Gardevoir which is an issue but not enough to worsen stall. The lack of need to account for Aegislash in its entirety and loss of enormous pressure it puts on so much of the team gives more room to account for threats and makes things like SpD Gliscor able to deal with Lando without being so worn down from handling Aegi. Overall despite the fact that certain offensive threats get better, I feel Aegi leaving removes a big pressure for stall that makes up for what gets better.
 
"Aegislash without King's Shield is not broken!"
"Darkrai without Dark Void is not broken!"
"Giratina without Rest is not broken!"

Look, I agree that Aegi is far from ubers material, but this "just ban KS" argument needs to stop.
But why???, if one move is making a pokemon so called broken? than why ban the pokemon, if the developers hadn't given him that move, it would be ou, but easier to check, Kings Shield is the only reason i see any use of aegis lash.
 
CM Mega Gardevoir literally 6-0s stall and without aegi it actually is pretty good vs. HO too.

Mega Medicham reks stall better but isn't as good as mega gardevoir against HO.

I'm using Magnet Pull HP Fire Magnezone + CM HP Ground Mega Gardevoir and literally nothing on stall [except if it was running ditto] could ever stop this combo.

hawlucha is one pokemon that is both good vs. stall and good vs. HO. Well as long as you kill quag.
 
I know that this thread is about Aegislash, but I agree with MegaScizor . I really do think all of the arguments have been exhausted; it seems like we're just going in circles now. One thing I think needs to be talked about more, however, is what Aldaron touched upon. We need to talk about tiering in general. One thing I've noticed is that most people seem to agree that Aegislash is centralizing, but there's a split between the degree to which that is tolerated.

I think the crux of the ACCEPTABLE arguments of not banning Aegislash is that while it centralizes the meta, it is not a broken pokemon, and it does not deserve a ban.

Most of the people calling for the ban argue that Aegi's polarization of the meta is unhealthy.

Is there something here that we can all agree on? I feel that there is something we can learn from this.
 
But why???, if one move is making a pokemon so called broken? than why ban the pokemon, if the developers hadn't given him that move, it would be ou, but easier to check, Kings Shield is the only reason i see any use of aegis lash.
Because bans aren't supposed to be biased towards trying to preserve a pokemon and find a way to fit it in, hence why Blaziken is banned altogether. A ban isn't made to nerf a pokemon it is as simple as that. Which is what banning X or Y move from said mon accomplishes. Bans are definitive and not made to cut corners in trying to balance a specific Pokemon.
 
So basically, what i said in a nutshell is that Aegislash has a lot of checks and counters that prevent it from being an overpowered Pokemon in OU (which means that it's not too strong as a Pokemon separately, whether this means offense, walling, or support), and also makes the metagame less offensive that it would be without it, which makes it a positive presence in OU (this is subjective, but i think that the metagame doesn't need to get more offensive).
I just wanted to say that I found your post extremely informative Alexwolf. You make excellent points as to why Aegislash should not be banned. At this point, I can say that I agree with Aegislash not being banned. He has plenty of checks and counters in OU.

There are so many counters to Aegislash, it's not even funny. Assault Vest users are some of the best counters. I feel like these pro-ban people are distorting the definition of a counter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Counter is a pokemon that can switch in to an attack, then immediately threaten the pokemon out or KO it. By this definition Charizard Y would be a counter Aegislash, since it can take any attack (except Head Smash), then OHKO with Fire Blast. And let's be honest, any Aegislash worth it's salt isn't running Head Smash. A counter does not need to be able to switch into a threat twice. That distorts the definition. Aegislash is a great pokemon, but it cannot be banned if it isn't broken. We need to have better definitions of what defines broken and differentiates it from other pokemon... Since as I see it now, it sits comfortable in OU.
 
I just wanted to say that I found your post extremely informative Alexwolf. You make excellent points as to why Aegislash should not be banned. At this point, I can say that I agree with Aegislash not being banned. He has plenty of checks and counters in OU.

There are so many counters to Aegislash, it's not even funny. Assault Vest users are some of the best counters. I feel like these pro-ban people are distorting the definition of a counter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Counter is a pokemon that can switch in to an attack, then immediately threaten the pokemon out or KO it. By this definition Charizard Y would be a counter Aegislash, since it can take any attack (except Head Smash), then OHKO with Fire Blast. And let's be honest, any Aegislash worth it's salt isn't running Head Smash. A counter does not need to be able to switch into a threat twice. That distorts the definition. Aegislash is a great pokemon, but it cannot be banned if it isn't broken. We need to have better definitions of what defines broken and differentiates it from other pokemon... Since as I see it now, it sits comfortable in OU.
Char-y is a check to aegislash- a counter must be able to switch in to any attack and still win, and y cant switch in to head smash obviously. It can be banned for being overcentralizing or being uncompetitive.
 
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