According to that logic, why did we ban swag play, they banned a MOVE not the pokemon who were abusing it, pokemon like Klefti were used to abused said strategy and that nerfed the pokemon with it, would you really use physically based Klefti rather than the calm mind set, i don't see the problem banning moves and abilities. We have the baton pass clause due to people abusing baton pass in order to be successful, if people are gonna abuse things, like Kings shield Aegislash, and if a lot of people are complaining about how Aegislash is able to switch from offensive to defensive so quickly, nerf the reason for this, case and point KINGS SHEILD, its stat drops does make a difference, if you ran protect, you could just keep using the move you were gonna use. But with it, pokemon and even some teams have difficulty taking it down. Just Ban Kings Shield to Ubers.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Aegislash's low HP and Head Smash's 50% recoil makes it kill itself trying to beat its counters. Can we just stop bringing up Head Smash?!?
Personally I think it is wonderful that the most centralizing pokemon in OU right now is one that really isn't broken. It is definitely a fantastic pokemon and I think it prevents several things from being broken but I really don't think that it is broken itself. It has low speed, it is weak to common attacks and it is pretty easy to tell which set it is using and alot of the time you can tell simply by who its teammates are. Yeah it really is awesome and the 50/50s can be bothersome but the truth is that pokemon itself is a flawed game (this is evidenced by the fact that smogon exists to make rules for it) but aegislsash is definitely not broken in the way that pokemon like mega lucario and genesect were. I think that having the most centralizing pokemon in the meta be something that is slow and easy to check with common, reliable powerful attacks to be an ideal situation for the tier.
Yet King shield is a specific move and nor does it necessarily rely entirely on luck to accomplish its role, which is the entire point of why things like double team and swagger (single play) was banned. King shield is a signature move primarily used by Aegis, no point with smeargle since he just learns everything, moreover no other mon has the same stats or ability to really utilize King shield in a manner comparable to Aegis (stance change occurs). Which is entirely different from trying to find justification for competitive use of swagger in singles other than that specific strategy on banking with luck, King shield is definitely more competitive and has use with players actually capable to forcing momentum to be gained on choice locked mons or what not (or just stance changing in general).
More importantly you miss out on the fact that many other mons were just as able to capitalize Swagplay so simplifying it as Klefki being the main offender is just being reductive, hint there were many members that capitalized on Swagplay.
Edit: Moreover, Swagplay isn't even about a proper match up or having the correct moves to OHKO the swagger user it is about hoping not to get hit as they hurt themselves in confusion (and using free turns deal extra damage or spread status). So it isn't even a matter of how good your answer is but primarily how lucky you get, whereas the same can clearly not be said of KS. So at the very least on the grounds of competitiveness it is a weaker case.
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King's Shield takes prediction! Which in my opinion makes it competitive. A 50/50 is based on you and your opponent's decisions, not on luck. People need to rely more on skill. Aegislash isn't a luck based pokemon. And agreed, let's stop bringing up Head Smash.
Also, AV Entei is a counter to Aegislash.
Also, AV Entei is a counter to Aegislash.
How is it more diverse? All the pokemon that are claimed to be dropped in viability due to slash can actually handle him themselves..
Alex already listed a handfull of them.. but if we're going to ban aegislash just so the latis and celebi become more viable.. then we might as well ban tyranitar and scizor then as they're much a bigger threat to them.. atleast celebi can take a +0 uninvested shadow ball or shadow sneak.. even latios can live a +0 shadow sneak and OHKO with HP fire in return. Breloom spores aegislash 100% of the time and aegislash cannot do nothing about it but take the spore, hit it with a weak SS, or switch out and cause a teammate to get put down.. which then needs team support in a grass type to eat it.. Mega medicham can predict a king's shield, fake out, avoid a stat drop, and fire punch it in the face (if it has one..). Celebi can also baton pass to scout for a king's shield and put aegislash in a really unconfortable situation on switch in.
If the issue is having to take a shadow ball when switching your counter in.. your going to take a hit from anything not aegislash when bringing in a counter.. that's the way prediction and mindgames work with or without. Whether you have something immune and can counter back is the decider.. plus unlike other pokemon going to hit you when you switch, they're actually be invested in their offensives rather than aegislash who usually must always invest in hp and either another defense or choose when mixed..
and I'll say it again.. while aegislash has numerous sets it can run, that's no different from many other pokemon.. Does greninja have Extrasensory? does it have a hidden power? U-turn? does this gliscor have baton pass? Does it have sub-toxic stall? Knock off? EQ? Will this heatran phaze me? Is it safe to dragon dance my charizard while I have the chance or will heatran have air balloon later in the match? List goes on. Aegislash only adds a tablespoon of prediction and skillful thinking to the already mindgame playing metagame.
Aegislash is slow.. but not slow enough. 60 base speed is possibly the worst speed to be at.. as aegislash not only is outspeed by everything, but can't even benefit well from trick room! And it's definitly not enough for scarf like rotom which then just ruins king's shield anyway.
Plus I think we need to think about the community after the ban.. when this suspect is over.. there's going to be people complaining that aegislash either should be banned, needs nerfed, or pissed that they have to deal with another one just cause they can't handle it.. while another majority new and old will be confused why aegislash is even banned, think he needs brought back, be complaining how they can't see him broken, and then players are complaining about how ban happy we're getting.. unlike deoxys who HAD NO TRUE COUNTERS, everybody voted to ban, and in the end no fucks were given.. aegislash on the other hand this suspect will never end even when the fate is decided. I've never seen such debate.. this whole thread is 50/50 in opinions...
We had the same problem with baton pass.. suspect ended and everybody was still complaining until we made a final nerf, but even during the suspect we were all in agreement that something did need done.
I say DO NOT BAN aegislash just because he doesn't have any "broken, counterless, recovery outside wish, or luck based playstyle like evasion and swagger" factors torwards him.. he's a pokemon there isn't a single counter for.. he's more of a counter to certain pokemon, but in return those pokemon could also counter him back if he doesn't player smart..
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Head smash is a relevant part of Aegislash's movepool that lets it beat, or heavily hit some of its checks or counters, such as mandibuzz. If you have a team that is mandibuzz weak, for example, head smash would be useful for the team. Yes, it has 50% recoil, but if mandibuzz/charizard/whatever is that important then it can be used.
Also, after stealth rock, I don't think charizard y can take shadow ball+shadow sneak
Also, after stealth rock, I don't think charizard y can take shadow ball+shadow sneak
Stealth Rock is not relevant when considering checks and counters. If a player swiches in Charizard Y to SR in hopes of countering a pokemon, then they're a fool. Defog support is a must when running the 4x weak pokes. Some people make arguments for banning Aegislash, but... Kel9901... your arguments are making no sense.
Why would we stop talking about Head Smash when its a legit move and has perfectly fine uses?
Really, I dont understand... Its not like its obscure or anything.
Really, I dont understand... Its not like its obscure or anything.
Let's look at the usage statistics then. Which percent of Aegislash actually run Head Smash on the ladder. Then let's cross-section that with player rank on the ladder to see how many decent players use Head Smash, it isn't relevant. Even if you were to score the KO with it, you lose a majority of HP, then you'll be revenge killed easy.
iirc 'common battle conditions' is included in the counters definition, and stealth rock is a common battle condition even if you have a defogger or spinner- it is easier to set it up than to remove it.
stealth rock is ALWAYS relevant when making checks and counters, even for defoggers like Zapdos as they will be switching in to a likely stealth rock.
plus it only counters two things.. talonflame on switch in and mandibuzz.. one who with roost will just stall out head smash and make aegislash kill himself.. especially with LO and possibly rocky helm on mandibuzz. It's a gimmicky move that is just unexpected rather than useful in most situations.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-328 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
SR can pretty much be called team support which, if aegislash NEEDS inorder to kill certain threats, really just is another negative about his viability like he can't handle anything on his own.. which is what ubers usually are banned for.
Fair enough, I simply mean that the problem isn't solved by banning something, it's learning to counter it or else the thing anti smogon players hate most is true (banning things just to not have to deal with it).
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We have already discussed usage stats. Stop bringing that up, they are not the sole basis for an argument.
Also I invite you to look at tours, like WCOP. And since when is killing your checks/counters a bad thing ?_?
Now I dont want to derail the thread so I'm going to stop here, but usage stats are not an argument... The ladder is notorious for being repetitive and behind the times.
Nobody's countered this (admittedly weak) anti-ban argument yet, so I think this should be discussed.
"Aegislash has weaknesses to FOUR common attacking types - Ghost, Ground, Fire, and Dark!"
Has it occurred to anybody else that it might be the other way around - that the reason why those attacking types are common is BECAUSE of Aegislash?
Ghost - Ghost is arguably one of the best attacking types in OU right now. However, thanks to Aegislash's presence, most Ghosts have been pushed out of OU - not only because they can't switch into Aegislash's Shadow Ball, but also because the strong Dark type attacks (Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off) that almost every offensive team is forced to run to deal with Aegislash also nukes them.
Ground - People have already brought up the issue of physical attacking mons being forced to run Earthquake, which is becoming a liability in OU thanks to the really powerful, really fast Flying types that are in the top tier of OU. Disregarding Aegislash, Ground is such a poor attacking type in OU - not only do you open up switch in opportunities to Charizard, Talonflame, the genies, Skarmory, Gyarados, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Levitators, and other Flyers, but what other notable OU mon are you hitting super-effectively with Earthquake? Mega-Mawile and Bisharp? Heatran? Aside from those 4, all the other EQ weak Steel types have dropped to UU or lower already (and even some that aren't weak to Earthquake - RIP Bronzong). Poison-types? All the relevant Poison types in OU are either neutral or immune to Ground. Rock-types? Terrakion and Tyranitar are the only relevant ones. Also EdgeQuake coverage isn't that great in OU not only because Stone Miss is such a heartbreaker move. It just doesn't seem worth it running EQ unless you have STAB on it, or it covers up a deficiency in your STAB.
Fire - Yes, there are a lot of good Fire-types in OU right now, which is why Fire attacks are common. But this, arguably, is even more clearly Aegislash's fault. Fire is NOT a good attacking type in a vacuum - it's resisted by the common Water, Fire, and Dragon types. It's SE only against ONE OU relevant type - Steel. However it's rise as coverage for Steel type mons (and the drop in usage of Fighting coverage) is almost 100% Aegislash's fault. This is a problem, guys.
Dark - And now one type where it may seem it's not Aegislash's fault, but it totally is. Dark got a lot of buffs in Gen VI - the nerf to Steel's resists, the Knock-off buff - however Dark doesn't hit anything outside of Ghosts and Psychics SE, and of the 3 Psychics in OU, two are neutral to it. However Dark types are so low-risk to use because you're highly unlikely to be punished with a Fighting-type switch-in or priority, because Aegislash makes running Fighting type mons AND moves too risky.
So, yeah, at least 3 of the 4 "common weaknesses" are in my opinion only common BECAUSE of Aegislash.
"Aegislash has weaknesses to FOUR common attacking types - Ghost, Ground, Fire, and Dark!"
Has it occurred to anybody else that it might be the other way around - that the reason why those attacking types are common is BECAUSE of Aegislash?
Ghost - Ghost is arguably one of the best attacking types in OU right now. However, thanks to Aegislash's presence, most Ghosts have been pushed out of OU - not only because they can't switch into Aegislash's Shadow Ball, but also because the strong Dark type attacks (Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off) that almost every offensive team is forced to run to deal with Aegislash also nukes them.
Ground - People have already brought up the issue of physical attacking mons being forced to run Earthquake, which is becoming a liability in OU thanks to the really powerful, really fast Flying types that are in the top tier of OU. Disregarding Aegislash, Ground is such a poor attacking type in OU - not only do you open up switch in opportunities to Charizard, Talonflame, the genies, Skarmory, Gyarados, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Levitators, and other Flyers, but what other notable OU mon are you hitting super-effectively with Earthquake? Mega-Mawile and Bisharp? Heatran? Aside from those 4, all the other EQ weak Steel types have dropped to UU or lower already (and even some that aren't weak to Earthquake - RIP Bronzong). Poison-types? All the relevant Poison types in OU are either neutral or immune to Ground. Rock-types? Terrakion and Tyranitar are the only relevant ones. Also EdgeQuake coverage isn't that great in OU not only because Stone Miss is such a heartbreaker move. It just doesn't seem worth it running EQ unless you have STAB on it, or it covers up a deficiency in your STAB.
Fire - Yes, there are a lot of good Fire-types in OU right now, which is why Fire attacks are common. But this, arguably, is even more clearly Aegislash's fault. Fire is NOT a good attacking type in a vacuum - it's resisted by the common Water, Fire, and Dragon types. It's SE only against ONE OU relevant type - Steel. However it's rise as coverage for Steel type mons (and the drop in usage of Fighting coverage) is almost 100% Aegislash's fault. This is a problem, guys.
Dark - And now one type where it may seem it's not Aegislash's fault, but it totally is. Dark got a lot of buffs in Gen VI - the nerf to Steel's resists, the Knock-off buff - however Dark doesn't hit anything outside of Ghosts and Psychics SE, and of the 3 Psychics in OU, two are neutral to it. However Dark types are so low-risk to use because you're highly unlikely to be punished with a Fighting-type switch-in or priority, because Aegislash makes running Fighting type mons AND moves too risky.
So, yeah, at least 3 of the 4 "common weaknesses" are in my opinion only common BECAUSE of Aegislash.
Who cares what the ladder uses?
There's a difference between prediction and guessing. You can, say, predict if an opponent will sac something or switch to something else based on what pokemon are most valuable to them. You can predict if it's X or Y-zard based on their team, or what set Clefable is running based on their team.
There's no "prediction" with King's Shield. It's literally you guess wrong or you guess right. Aegislash, in a situation where any other pokemon would either need to sac themselves or switch out, has a chance to bullshit some of its checks with complete guesswork.
This is really the case with any major threat though isn't it? I could be mistaken but I always thought Greninja was the best pokemon to counter charizard and that is a good reason as to why he moved to the number one slot.
Oh no! Heatran has only 3 weakness everybody is forced to run water, fighting, and ground types STR8 TO UBERS!
This is a poor argument in reguards to typing. I think what alot of these arguements here are failing to do is compare aegislash to other pokemon.. ones with even less weaknesses, that can outclass it ocassionally doing a better job then slash himself, and even make better sweepers (Is it me or is multiscale WP dragonite more scary and ban worthy than slash?)
When comparing these pokemon you can even see how this pokemon can handle him 1v1 as well. Breloom for example is brought up alot when he can just spore or setup his on sub and poison heal stall on the runaway slash.
And I will repeat this again.. and again.. but not matter how bulky slash is fully invested, outside leftovers, he has no method of staying healthy.
Unless aegislash got move tutors in ORAS which we were too much in a hurry to wait for and could setup hazards and support the team like Deoxy then maybe I'd say alright.. (psst.. deoxys still had recover!)
(P.S. under the sun no LO hydropump is going to KO charizard Y..)
The context was with swagger which is a far cry from the guesswork of KS not necessarily that KS doesn't create guesswork just that you aren't always going to bank on luck to do your job as compared to the move that was banned. KS is more akin to Sucker Punch than swagger as some people in the thread tried to compare the two in trying to justify the banning of the move rather than the Pokemon.
Please don't misunderstand what I meant here. I meant that metagame is always threats and checks and saying something forces you to use something isn't a good reason for banning it. Sure it seems a little centralizing, but somethings gonna replace it as the big threat. My post wasn't trying to say it should be banned for those reasons, I meant that's a poor reason to ban it. And yeah, the sun thing is a valid point didn't think about that
Uh…what? I think you're way overstating Aegislash's impact here. Sure, it draws a lot of attention in team building, but it doesn't make entire types viable.
Ground has never been a poor attacking type. Earthquake is literally one of the most spammable moves I can think of--100BP, no drawbacks? Yes please.
Ghost typing is now extremely easy to spam thanks to its good neutral coverage. It just so happens that Aegislash is weak to Ghost moves.
Fire has been a good offensive typing--please don't use "in a vacuum" arguments. The game is NOT a vacuum, and as such, shouldn't be treated like one. There is a reason we say, "Good on paper, but bad in practice". Fire is good because of: Scizor, Ferrothorn, Grass types, Steel Types, spreading burns, and not getting burned.
Dark types are more viable because, like you said, they got buffed. Knock Off IS literally the most spammable move in OU, and it isn't because of Aegislash. It's spammable because it punishes switches and finally has a passable BP. STAB Pursuit is also another great reason to use Dark types, and that's completely independent of Aegislash.
Nice and clean contradictions. EQ is not the most spammable move just because it has 100 BP. It has many Pokemon that are immune to it and generally has worse coverage relative to our specific metagame than EQ does outside of Aegislash. Moves like Close Combat or Fire Punch generally have better coverage by hitting more things than EQ does. Examples include Skarmory, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc. Not to mention Close Combat has 20 more BP than EQ and generally the drop in defenses won't matter to an offensive Pokemon. THAT is why Aegislash centralizes the metagame around EQ. Anything that doesn't get STAB from it would most likely not use it if it weren't for Aegislash. It's not like Gen V where Jirachi and Rain made EQ a more viable option.
Oh my god, are you kidding me? You're calling ground a poor attacking type, calling Earthquake a liability, and claiming that OU is bursting at the seams with fire types. I don't even know where to start on correcting you, since you've engraved that Aegislash is the core problem of something you seem to have no experience with. Pokemon have been running Earthquake and Fire Blast for gens now, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that Aegislash is the reason these moves are seeing so much play.
Also the reason that there aren't that many ghost types in OU is because all of the ghost types outside of Sableye, Aegislash and Gengar are utter garbage at high level play in OU. Ghost is like the rarest typing in the game.
Agreed. KS relies on proper prediction much like sucker punch. Guesswork is a poor excuse for someone unable to predict in pokemon. Luck is luck. Swagger, confuse ray, and thunder wave's paralyze chance is also luck. 1/4 chance of being unable to move. KS can be exploited with status, set up, subsititutes and proper switching. It can be exploited even more than protect can be.
Let's stop claiming KS is a factor with Aegislash's ban.
I was in agreement with your post, I wasn't posting in concern or arguing with anything. I ment just cause heatran has very few checks and counters we should ban him too.. apparently not so why aegislash who is checked much easier? I'm trying to compare BIGGER threats.. or atleast more common threats that can shut teams down if their only counters are killed or never used.
Most of what people are complaining about seems to be that they can no lower spam overkill BP moves like CC anymore.. or they just lost a prediction on KS, got pissed, Closed their laptop, made a sandwich and asked for a suspect.
I think half the arguements are seriously bias personal feelings torwards actually having to deal with something that actually blocks the most dangerous moves in the game.
I want scizor banned as it gets in the way of my latias.. I DEMAND A SUSPECT! (not really..but same case for some)
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