Balanced Hackmons: Extreme Stalling

[ntiller]

Well, it finally happened. Someone caught me in one of these damn things. I'm posting the set because I don't think it's been discussed yet, and because it's kind of amazing how many ways there are to do this.

Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Magnet Pull
-Shell Smash
-Sludge Bomb
-Sludge Bomb
-Magic Coat

This works because if you have the same move twice, when that move runs out of PP in the first slot, clicking the second slot will simply yield the message "Jirachi used Sludge Bomb! But Jirachi doesn't have any PP for the move!" This can be repeated any number of times. Essentially, if Chansey switches in on Jirachi here, the battle is guaranteed to last forever. No Leppa, Skill Swap or Entrainment needed, and no struggling. Of course, the fix is simple- don't let people have the same move twice in their movesets at all.

 

[Druides]

Well, it finally happened. Someone caught me in one of these damn things. I'm posting the set because I don't think it's been discussed yet, and because it's kind of amazing how many ways there are to do this.

Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Magnet Pull
-Shell Smash
-Sludge Bomb
-Sludge Bomb
-Magic Coat

This works because if you have the same move twice, when that move runs out of PP in the first slot, clicking the second slot will simply yield the message "Jirachi used Sludge Bomb! But Jirachi doesn't have any PP for the move!" This can be repeated any number of times. Essentially, if Chansey switches in on Jirachi here, the battle is guaranteed to last forever. No Leppa, Skill Swap or Entrainment needed, and no struggling. Of course, the fix is simple- don't let people have the same move twice in their movesets at all.

I was actually carrying leftovers, and banning trapping would work too without taking away choices such as, double moveslotting.

 

[ntiller]

Why would trapping be banned over some obscure thing that's only purpose is to allow these kind of infinite situations to occur? Do game mechanics even support having the same move twice?

 

[Druides]

Why would trapping be banned over some obscure thing that's only purpose is to allow these kind of infinite situations to occur? Do game mechanics even support having the same move twice?

Not to be rude, but the rest of the thread.

 

[ntiller]

As far as I can tell, the only person who wants to ban trapping outright is Arcticblast, and I think a few of the other players and I were able to talk him out of it, though I'm not sure. Banning something that has legitimate applications just because of some weird sets people use to break the system seems stupid. I still think that moderator action is the best way to handle this, since it allows for human judgment and common sense. However, Zarel has made it clear that that isn't an option so the next best thing is to just have a bunch of complex bans in order to stop people from doing this, without actually impacting the metagame.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Well, it finally happened. Someone caught me in one of these damn things. I'm posting the set because I don't think it's been discussed yet, and because it's kind of amazing how many ways there are to do this.

Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Magnet Pull
-Shell Smash
-Sludge Bomb
-Sludge Bomb
-Magic Coat

This works because if you have the same move twice, when that move runs out of PP in the first slot, clicking the second slot will simply yield the message "Jirachi used Sludge Bomb! But Jirachi doesn't have any PP for the move!" This can be repeated any number of times. Essentially, if Chansey switches in on Jirachi here, the battle is guaranteed to last forever. No Leppa, Skill Swap or Entrainment needed, and no struggling. Of course, the fix is simple- don't let people have the same move twice in their movesets at all.

Genius, much less complicated than mine, although it's a glitch.

 

[Redless]

If we elliminated the glitch, would that solve the problem to the point where we could use a few other bans in conjunction to stop this?

 

[Zarel]

Zarel banning both Leppa+Recycle or Leppa+Harvest would not be the best idea. There are many uses of both those strategies that do not exploit the system. Leppa+Harvest is relatively equivalent to an Imposter Chansey when not abusing moves such as the listed jirachi set. As far as Leppa+Recycle there are many viable strategies surrounding that as well (for ex. putting it on a magic bouncer with low pp moves like heal bell, synthesis etc.) If you ban those you might as well ban imposter altogether. I think the best solution is just to ban the use of trapping moves in par with leppa+recycle or leppa+harvest.

I am perfectly aware that infinite Leppa has legitimate uses, if we define "legitimate uses" as "can be used to win".

However, there are two reasons why I want to ban infinite Leppa.

An objective reason:

- Most (but not all) infinite stalling tactics use infinite Leppa. Banning infinite Leppa makes the remaining infinite stalling tactics much easier to ban. Trying to ban infinite stalling without banning infinite Leppa will be much more like playing whack-a-mole. Well, we'll still be playing whack-a-mole, but there will be a lot fewer moles to whack.

And a subjective reason:

- I personally believe that infinite PP stall is bad for the metagame. It's not centralizing (the reason we banned Wonder Guard and OHKO moves), and it doesn't prevent the game from ending (the reason we're banning infinite Struggle), but there are other reasons to ban. Specifically, because it's not fun.

For a competitive game to be good, it should end in a reasonable amount of time. The shorter games are, the more that can be played in a given time period, so the faster people can test new strategies, practice their prediction, and improve their skills. Infinite PP stall is a legitimate strategy, but its ratio of skill:time needed is just so low that it makes the game bad for everyone. In fact, because of this, very few people use it. Not because it's a bad strategy, but because it just isn't a very fun strategy. And when people do use it, it's mainly for trolling. Shouldn't it be obvious that a strategy used mainly for trolling is bad for the metagame?

I still think that moderator action is the best way to handle this, since it allows for human judgment and common sense. However, Zarel has made it clear that that isn't an option

I hope I have made it clear why this isn't an option: Most users won't realize that they can call a moderator. They will get hit by someone using this, they will get frustrated, and we will lose a potential new BH player.

verbatim wants to avoid this, and so do I.

Do game mechanics even support having the same move twice?

It depends on your definition of "game mechanics". It's not possible to obtain legitimately, but it's possible to hack a Pokémon with two copies of the same move.

Remember, we're playing Hackmons, where the rule is specifically: "Is it possible to obtain using a hacked GTS or PokeGen or something like that?" In which case the answer is "Yes."

although it's a glitch.

It's not a glitch, it's how the games actually work if you hack two of the same move onto a Pokémon. Blame Game Freak. Well, not exactly "blame" - it's impossible to get two of the same move on a Pokémon without hacking so they don't really have a strong reason to make it work like you'd expect.

Anyway, "two of the same move" should be banned in BH because it has no use except for PP stalling. Wait, some of you guys didn't want to ban infinite Leppa, so that might not be a good reason to ban it. -_-

 

[ntiller]

To my mind, infinite Leppa is better to have than the whole "2 of the same moves" things because infinite Leppa can also be used in a more proactive manner. Having access to infinite Dragon Tails or Heal Bells seems like something that could useful, and wouldn't necessarily be reliant on PP stalling. There are no other uses for 2 of the same move, at least not that I can think of.

If you think infinite PP is bad for the metagame, then Imposter also needs to be banned. Unfortunately, banning Imposter would spawn so many viable offensive threats that I don't believe a stall team would have any hope of checking even half of them. In many ways, killing Imposter would actually remove diversity from the metagame.

 

[Zarel]

I said specifically that I think infinite PP stall is bad for the metagame. It's true that Imposter can also be used for infinite PP, but as far as I know, it can't be reliably used to stall the way infinite Leppa can, so I see no reason to ban it as well.

It's true and unfortunate that other infinite Leppa strategies are banned as a consequence, but I think it's worth the trade-off (Remember: I listed two reasons why I think banning infinite Leppa is desirable; preventing infinite PP stall is only one of them).

 

[RNGnoob]

Can someone explain to me how heal pulse is an issue? I thought it was a useless move.

 

[Champion Steve]

tl;dr?
The thread linked in the OP has the answer to that. But the reason is that by trapping a Pokemon unable to KO you then using Harvest/Recycle with Leppa Berry to continuously heal yourself and them using Heal Pulse and Recover you can keep a battle going on indefinitely.

 

[CashKP]

ALRIGHT so i think i have a real solution here to end this whole thing. Ban all permanent trapping. So no spider web, no mean look, no mag pull. But allow trapping in the form of magma storm, fire spin, whirlpool, ect. Now ban leppa + any trapping move and i think that should prevent the match from going on forever. Because eventually things will die. I dont think that this is unfair because it still allows trap + perish and trap + set up but you cant exploit it. This will take away all of the other problems. Oh also ban trapping moves + ingrain so people cant force impostors to ingrain, and that should be that. So hopefully all you guys/girls can agree with me and we can finally put this thing to rest :D

PS Druides shouldnt even be allowed to post in here because he is why this problem exists. GTFO and Adrian made this to actually try to win some games by rage quit and it was only one poke not their whole strategy. After this problem came up Druides and his friends (who just spam all caps in battle and say insulting things) thought it would be funny to make a whole team of trappers just to piss people off. So maybe if players like that can grow up and not be a dick, we could have already solved this.

 

[Kirbles]

Okay, i don't really know the Balanced hackmons meta seeing as i prefer pure hackmons. But i have seen this in play

Firstly, the 16 struggle clause should be put in play. (But i'm sure thats already been decided)
And just ban heal pulse. It has no other use in the meta i'm guessing so banning it won't have an impact.

Leppa berry on the other hand is a tougher one. But should only be banned if used with recycle/harvest/trapping move as it has more functional uses.
And two of the same moves should be banned, it has no purpose.

Of course, no matter what you ban, players will find other ways to do stuff like this

 

[gtfo and cry is god]

Okay honestly enough is enough.

1) Banning leppa berry + recycle is just plain retarded and is not worth the trade off. There are so many viable methods of using leppa berry, as before mentioned (ex. replenishing moves like heal bell, sacred fire, synthesis, dragon tail); not to mention the fact that if you dont want to use an imposter chansey then this will be a fine substitute to make sure you dont get pp stalled by a foes double imposter chanseys.

2)Just ban the use of trapping moves and leppa berry on the same poke, ingrain and trapping, as well as two of the same moves on a poke. Problem fucking solved

3)People need to grow up. If you get caught before this change takes place (BOOHOO sad story), do one of two things , contact a mod or leave which I did recently and be a man and get over it, and play another match.

Now i would like to think that we all have a mental capacity higher than 12 year olds and this could be resolved without going to the 3rd page of this thread. Please just ban everything listed in (#2) and lets move on with our lives. Thank you

 

[Klang]

1. Ban permanent trapping moves (Mean Look, Block, Spider Web) alongside Leppa berry.
2. Ban magnet pull outright (As verbatim said in IRC, the fact that it wasn't banned alongside Arena Trap and Shadow Tag was an oversight.)
3. Ban Trick alongside Leppa berry (In case some smart-ass tries to trick a teammate's Leppa to the the opposing poke and back to the trapper)
4. Ban two of the same move on the same poke until the glitch is fixed.

This covers the entire situation while hurting as little viable tactics as possible.

Now i would like to think that we all have a mental capacity higher than 12 year olds and this could be resolved without going to the 3rd page of this thread.

 

[Zarel]

4. Ban two of the same move on the same poke until the glitch is fixed.

I'm just going to underline the part of your post that makes it obvious you haven't read the thread.

It's not a glitch, it's how the games actually work if you hack two of the same move onto a Pokémon. Blame Game Freak. Well, not exactly "blame" - it's impossible to get two of the same move on a Pokémon without hacking so they don't really have a strong reason to make it work like you'd expect.

 

[Klang]

I'm just going to underline the part of your post that makes it obvious you haven't read the thread.

OK then, remove the "until the glitch is fixed" part and you have my solution.

 

[Snowflakes]

I'm just going to underline the part of your post that makes it obvious you haven't read the thread.

it's simple to miss a post, considering he's had more posts than you it's obvious he has read it he just missed a few. anyway the complex bans people are coming up with are eye sores, can we not come up with better ones?

 

[Adrian Marin]

1: Ban Leppa Berry and Fling/Switcheroo/Trick on the same pokemon
2: Ban 2 or more of the same moves if used
3: Ban Heal Pulse + Spider Web/Block/Mean Look
4: Add the struggle clause everyone is talking about.
With these bans, it will be practically impossible to pull of this strategy while not hurting the metagame at all, this is by far the most rational option imo.

 

[Zarel]

I think my banlist was the simplest, and also the only one with the logic worked out on why it covers everything. All these other banlists are pretty complicated and not guaranteed to cover everything, mostly because people don't want infinite Leppa banned.

The problem with infinite Leppa is that it causes infinite loops. Now all you have to do is get your opponent to do an infinite loop (their own infinite Leppa mon, or just infinite switching), and now you have a game that can't end. Even if we ban anything else weird that can be done with infinite Leppa, if you just use Leppa for the infinite PP, you can still end up with situations where the game never ends.

 

[Klang]

There problem with infinite Leppa is that it causes infinite loops. Now all you have to do is get your opponent to do an infinite loop (their own infinite Leppa mon, or just infinite switching), and now you have a game that can't end. Even if we ban anything else weird that can be done with infinite Leppa, if you just use Leppa for the infinite PP, you can still end up with situations where the game never ends.

While infinite Leppa does cause infinite loops, if that were a reason to ban something double chansey and infinite switching would have to be considered as well. The only real problem that leppa has caused unique to other infinite loop strategies is the fact that the opponent can be trapped via a trapping move/ability, essentially forcing a tie when the opponent falls into the trap regardless of any advantage you have in the battle. Both infinite switching and double chansey allow something to switch in and adapt to the situation, which is why they are different and Leppa is being cracked down upon.

Hence lies the logic in my proposed ban list, which while complicated, deals with Dickrachi and all variants of it while keeping legitimate leppa berry strategies intact.

1. Ban permanent trapping moves (Mean Look, Block, Spider Web) alongside Leppa berry.
Fixes the issue which I pointed out in the paragraph above, allowing you to switch in a Pokemon and adapt to the infinite loop situation, which is usually something that can easily threaten the Leppa user in some way.

2. Ban magnet pull outright.
While I could easily slide this in with the first rule, one certain set that Adrian has made that requires neither a leppa berry or a trapping move makes it impossible to do so. I'm not going to mention it here since this thread has already given these kind of strategies massive popularity on the ladder compared to the one person that used it before, though I could PM it if it's really necessary. Not to mention that magnet pull really should be alongside arena trap and shadow tag in the first place.

3. Ban two of the same move on the same poke.
While it does work the way it does it's clearly obvious that this wasn't a mechanic intended to be used in the game so I see no reason why not to ban it. That and the only use it has is for these Dickrachi sets in the first place.

Optional:
4. Ban Trick alongside Leppa berry.
I could let this one slide since it over complicates stuff and you're really retarded if you let him trick you a leppa berry and then let him trick it back to the abuser, but it does cover everything.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I think my banlist was the simplest, and also the only one with the logic worked out on why it covers everything. All these other banlists are pretty complicated and not guaranteed to cover everything, mostly because people don't want infinite Leppa banned.

There problem with infinite Leppa is that it causes infinite loops. Now all you have to do is get your opponent to do an infinite loop (their own infinite Leppa mon, or just infinite switching), and now you have a game that can't end. Even if we ban anything else weird that can be done with infinite Leppa, if you just use Leppa for the infinite PP, you can still end up with situations where the game never ends.

I don't see how we have to resort to hurting legit strategies..... adding struggle clause already takes care of non-Leppa strategies whereas banning Leppa Berry + Fling/Trick/Switcheroo stops users from replenishing the foes PP. And finally, negating the use of 2 moves on the same pokemon handles Druide's method, with all these added, I can clearly say that this strategy will not be possible and that my ban list will clearly stop the use of this strategy altogether (without hurting any legit strategies).

 

[asterat]

How about we ban all of it under the "stupid bullshit" clause.

 

[CashKP]

This thread is like a month old hah