Please teach me how to get a 100% burn rate.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Okay, I can agree with that. The problem I have with that is I feel like I can get around those pokemon in comparison to Aegislash, where it is harder to do. Maybe its the obnoxious threat of Kings Shield, or that its harder to scout out what sets its running, or maybe its 150 defenses that switch to attacks.
Its not that I'm lazy to deal with it, its that I find it unreasonably difficult to stop.
30% isn't nothing to scoff at though, he made a mistake by just saying "fucked by scald" but it still applies that Azumarill doesn't like a burn, which, let's be real, is actually like a 60% chance to happen lol. The idea of having two checks still applies.
The distinction to make is none of those offensive threats can switch in as freely as aegislash can. But again this is what happens when you look at the traits one at a time instead of comprehensively.
That last line of logic I kind of failed to follow up on, but the last line isn't good because we don't want more HO. But you could also think of it like more HO because HO limits HMG-->stall matches up against HO well?-->HMG usage goes up in response?-->balance?????
This extremely questionable line of logic leading to balance (what we want!) depends on stall's matchup against HO, which is in and of itself just another team matchup based fight imo. If you have an answer to everything on HO and you manage to keep them all healthy until each threat is gone, then ofc stall is gonna win, but if there's a mon on HO that stall can't cover, then HO has a better chance; so this line of logic prolly doesn't churn out as nice as it looks.
To tag users, just go @usernamehere. So to tag me, you gotta punch in those numbers :I
I see where you are going with this and agree with you, but I have to point out that since aegislash is such a blanket check, its not too difficult to just sack a mon in order to weaken aegislash greatly and let another blow past it. In HMG's case, however, the counters are pretty ironclad and each one has reliable recovery. So as long as HMG's stay healthy HMG will not break your team.
Mega venusaur, Lati@s, and hippowdon are not really checks to thundy in the first place, since either HP flying or HP ice is standard on thundurus. Greninja gets great coverage with its movepool plus a hidden power, and it is powerful, so I think that deserves two checks. Venusaur can eat up hp flying from keldeo (would calc but I'm too lazy), and I wouldn't say lati@s are "fucked by scald" considering they have reliable recovery. Not every single threat requires two checks, but aegislash definitely does.
And you keep on missing how those offensive threats have other things that Aegislash lacks, such as better Speed, stronger priority, boosting moves, or stronger / better STABs, but whatever.
One of Thundy's best sets is LO + T-Wave + 3 attacks, which is checked by all of the Pokemon that i mentioned, but other Thundurus checks can get past those checks. Latias may have reliable recovery but good luck avoiding getting Pursuit trapped. Finally, burned Mega Venusaur can't take two Specs Hidden Power Flying.
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, while I'm here...
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 286-338 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 116-138 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 332-392 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Why are the mawile calcs -2.. sucker punch avoids KS.. A more realistic situation would be +2 since mawile could use the turn aegislash switches in/KS/switch out (which would be incredibly stupid to switch into mawile without sucker punch mindgames..) to SD
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 232-274 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 190-224 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aegislash does outspeed with his priority (w/ neutral speed nature)
KS would put a choiced talonflame at -2..
Nonetheless.. even at +2 the only thing important is he takes damage as he can't recover it bar leftovers.
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I don't see the relevance of those calcs regarding aegislash
Sucker punch is a 50/50 machine. King's shield is a 50/50 machine. Put them together, and you have a real big mess. Not only is sucker punch especially unreliable (shadow sneak to outspeed, kings shield to block, etc.), but it doesn't not even 1hko aegi-shield in a best case scenario (not -2). What is mawile's second best option in this scenario attack-wise? Fire fang? If it has it, that is. A sd mawile set with sucker punch is very unlikely to win given king's shield+shadow sneak outspeeding, though that comes down to more 50/50's yay! I don't know particularly what I'm arguing right now aside from the fact that 50/50s suck and that there are a boat load of them between mawile and aegi, but perhaps I was trying to say that dealing with aegislash using something like mawile just isn't reliable, especially when mawile cannot 1hko aegi in shield form.
The talonflame one is just dumb. Cb talon flame + KS = bop
Sucker punch is a 50/50 machine. King's shield is a 50/50 machine. Put them together, and you have a real big mess. Not only is sucker punch especially unreliable (shadow sneak to outspeed, kings shield to block, etc.), but it doesn't not even 1hko aegi-shield in a best case scenario (not -2). What is mawile's second best option in this scenario attack-wise? Fire fang? If it has it, that is. A sd mawile set with sucker punch is very unlikely to win given king's shield+shadow sneak outspeeding, though that comes down to more 50/50's yay! I don't know particularly what I'm arguing right now aside from the fact that 50/50s suck and that there are a boat load of them between mawile and aegi, but perhaps I was trying to say that dealing with aegislash using something like mawile just isn't reliable, especially when mawile cannot 1hko aegi in shield form.
The talonflame one is just dumb. Cb talon flame + KS = bop
No one underspeeds with Mawile... What are you talking about?
That doesn't mean anything. If a Mawile chooses to underspeed JUST to take out Aegislash (there is literally no other reason as there are much better choices in any other situation, then that's a bit of a slot waste, isn't it? It isn't even overcentralizing because somebody would have to voluntarily choose to do so.
But it's a non factor anyway. It's been established that Mawile can take on Aegislash and win thanks to Sucker Punch. But at the same time, so can just about any Pokemon with Sucker Punch (252+ Atk Machamp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-160 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). It doesn't change Aegislash in any way, it just makes it more of a guessing game as to who will ultimately win in the 1v1 should it come down to that.
But it's a non factor anyway. It's been established that Mawile can take on Aegislash and win thanks to Sucker Punch. But at the same time, so can just about any Pokemon with Sucker Punch (252+ Atk Machamp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-160 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). It doesn't change Aegislash in any way, it just makes it more of a guessing game as to who will ultimately win in the 1v1 should it come down to that.
Pokemon run specific EV spreads or moves just to deal with one top-tier threat all of the time. Why do you think Gardevoir run HP Ground? Why does Keldeo have HP Flying? Why do some Landos run HP Ice? Ice Punch for Lucario? So they can get past ONE, maybe two things that fuck them or their teammates over. This isn't exclusive to dealing with Aegislash.
For the record, min speed Mawile can be used on TR teams.
Too true. And just to add to that list, I run two M-Pinsir checks because sometimes Skarmory just doesn't cut it.
Mega pinsir might run earthquake for electric types, dragon dance or banded dragonite always ran earthquake even in gen 5, terrakion has ran earthquake in the past from electric types and the eq/stone combo so aegislash is not the sole reason.
yeah, pinsir does not run EQ for electric types, in fact his EQ does not hit a single electric type in OU, the only ones it could potentially hit (raikou and megaman) outspeed him. Pinsir runs EQ for aegislash and maybe an argument could be made for heatran because iirc I dont think an unboosted Close combat kills. But yeah mainly for Aegislash and definitely not for electric types.
Terrakion however is totally fine having quake edge coverage It just doesnt like being locked into an earthquake with so many flying/levitate mons, but that reason is largely irrelevant, I really dont care if aegislash makes pokemon use a coverage move, which is why I have stayed away from that argument.
inb4 moldbreaker eq on rotom-w, because its not like the game announces pinsir has mold breaker or anything....
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>252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 183-216 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 404-476 (124.6 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>-2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are some calcs that I thought were interesting, interpret them however you like. I personally feel as though Aegislash would have been more balanced had megakhan not been banned, but she is, and that won't be changing. In my opinion, by banning the "apex-predator" components of the meta, it becomes necessary to ban aspects that were once balanced. Perpetuating this vicious cycle will do nothing but hurt the community more than it already has been.
>252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 404-476 (124.6 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>-2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are some calcs that I thought were interesting, interpret them however you like. I personally feel as though Aegislash would have been more balanced had megakhan not been banned, but she is, and that won't be changing. In my opinion, by banning the "apex-predator" components of the meta, it becomes necessary to ban aspects that were once balanced. Perpetuating this vicious cycle will do nothing but hurt the community more than it already has been.
3. Something has a negative presence in the metagame. This is the another reason to ban something, and one which a lot of people forget. Banning Pokemon because they have a negative (negative enough to justify a ban) effect on the metagame is a totally reasonable way to ban something, and has been done multiple times in the past.(quoted from the VR thread)
Aegislash is exactly this. It's effect on the meta is equivalent to the effect of cancer on a living thing. It sits there and does bad things.. Aegislash is the most cancerous pokemon in OU: it is a big reason why Pokemon like Jirachi, Starmie(first time ever out of OU) are UU, and it forces pokemon to run suboptimal coverage moves. Not going to list examples because they are EVERYWHERE throughout this thread, but thats not all. It's effect on team building is purely negative: it requires 2-3 checks(for all of its sets) and it functions as a band-aid fix to your problems. Need a check to Terrakion and Pinsir that can spin block? Run Air Balloon. Need something that can lure in and kill what your team has trouble with? Aegislash is your guy. There is no reason to NOT run Aegislash on your team. I could take a random team, put the proper Aegislash on it, and its better. Something like this has never been seen in OU and if we want a healthy meta we CAN'T have it in our tier. I am pro ban.
Aegislash is exactly this. It's effect on the meta is equivalent to the effect of cancer on a living thing. It sits there and does bad things.. Aegislash is the most cancerous pokemon in OU: it is a big reason why Pokemon like Jirachi, Starmie(first time ever out of OU) are UU, and it forces pokemon to run suboptimal coverage moves. Not going to list examples because they are EVERYWHERE throughout this thread, but thats not all. It's effect on team building is purely negative: it requires 2-3 checks(for all of its sets) and it functions as a band-aid fix to your problems. Need a check to Terrakion and Pinsir that can spin block? Run Air Balloon. Need something that can lure in and kill what your team has trouble with? Aegislash is your guy. There is no reason to NOT run Aegislash on your team. I could take a random team, put the proper Aegislash on it, and its better. Something like this has never been seen in OU and if we want a healthy meta we CAN'T have it in our tier. I am pro ban.
1. Hippowdon is also UU despite beeing an A rank threat and Aegi counter. Usage doesnt say much.
2. Jirachi and Starmie have far bigger problems than Aegi, Jirachi suffers alot from the steel type nerf and Starmie is simply outclassed by Excadrill as an offensive spinner. Starmie doesnt even have that much trouble with Aegi as Analytic Hydropump 2hkoes Aegi.
3. Alexwolf mentioned it a few times but here again, EVERY high ranking thread requires at least 2 checks on a team to be covered because 1 mon to counter all sets is basicly non existent.
4. Every pokemon in the A and S ranks has so much power and utility with so little drawbacks that there is no reason to not run them, thats the definition of A/S rank.
The thing is, threats like Thundurus, Landorus etc really only need one check because the sets they run are checked by the same thing. Aegislash, however, has different sets with different checks. Air Balloon sets can't be checked with Earthquake, specially based sets destroy checks to physically based checks etc, that you NEED 2 checks to Aegi on a proper team. It's simply so versatile that you just have to run multiple checks. And Aegislash is a cut above other S and A rank threats. They all have some sort of opportunity cost. While they may be small, Aegislash's opportunity cost is practically. nonexistent. All you need is the proper set that fits on your team and there is no reason to NOT run another set or pokemon. It's the sheer number of sets and how effectively it pulls them off that makes Aegislash ban worthy imo.
Not to nitpick, but Aegislash is a pretty huge problem for Starmie. Yes Analytic Pump 2HKOes, but that means Starmie has to catch Aegislash twice on the switch. I really don't hope I have to explain how extremely luck-/prediction-reliant this is (not gonna delve into the 50/50 discussion here), not to mention the momentum loss having to switch Starmie out the first time is (and you just have to hope Aegislash doesn't carry Pursuit). If you're staying in, Aegislash is just gonna shadow sneak (or KS if still on full health, two rounds of lefties likely brings Aegislash back out of pump's KO range), which will leave Starmie on the brink of death, if not further (Shadow Sneak+two round of LO damage+SR damage - because why would you be switching in Starmie otherwise - does between 90 and 99% damage, only assuming lefties Aegislash. If Aegislash has LO or if there are Spikes/Toxic Spikes up as well, Starmie is dead.)
If Aegislash were to get banned, I could just see Starmie getting back to OU. No the based god probably won't regain its former throne - it has indeed other problems, more specifically the rain nerf, general power creep and competition with Greninja for a purely offensive role - but being cockblocked pretty badly by the pokemon that has the metagame revolving around itself never helps, and Starmie is even now the best spinner after Mega Blastoise and Excadrill. If Aegislash were to go, Starmie would at least be able to reliably perform its main role most of the time.
Purely as an offensive spinner, Exca doesn't exactly outclass Starmie, they're just good in different ways (Exca has more power in general, but Starmie has WAY better coverage, more power on the switch, and excellent rather than mediocre speed, e.g. outspeeding Gengar (!). Sand Rush doesn't count here because that has nothing to do with spinning, Mold Breaker is better for a spinning Excadrill anyway because Gengar). The main reason Starmie struggles is one specific spinblocker named Aegislash, and pretending otherwise doesn't make much sense, as I hopefully have demonstrated.
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Axal
Banned deucer.
I am still on the fence for this, it really is a hard one to decide. Currently I'm thinking of voting to keep aegis in OU and here's why: (I may change my decision though)
While I acknowledge that is an amazing pokemon that is both versatile and a total powerhouse with it's incredible stats, ability and king's shield, I have to say that it is not very difficult to when facing. The current team building process for the vast majority of players already takes into account the fact that steel types are very prevalent so teams already currently carry numerous checks and countering strategies to it. It's weaknesses are fire/dark/ground/ghost; these are covered by some of the most common offensive attacks in the game with the prevalence of moves such as sucker punch, knock off, earthquake, earth power, fire blast, flare blitz etc.
By saying this I am referring not to specific pokemon that the completely shut it down, but rather a strategy in how you would deal with it. I for example deal with it by taunting it with my suicide lead which I may or may not choose to keep around, and then using pursuit with bisharp. Specs keldeo is already able to 2hko it with neutral attacks. What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a pokemon that is difficult to take down when facing even while maintaining offensive pressure on the field.
I am not experienced with playing stall so I can not comment too much on how a teal would deal with aegis, but it would require more than a single mon. Arguments stating that aegis is able to defeat mandibuzz with the headsmash sets seem to me like they are trying to put too much pressure on mandibuzz rather than their core. However, like I said, I'm not experienced with stall. Adding a wallbreaker into a stall team to deal with aegis beyond the simple core is viable in my eyes as well.
The arguments that state that aegis is able to run a multiple number of very viable sets are true in increasing the overall viability of aegis. If offensive pressure is maintained with your strategy of dealing with aegis, in my experience the differences among the sets is hazed. For example spamming knock off with bisharp. When dealing with aegis (with mons other than bisharp), stating that the king's shield 50/50s are uncompetitive is not accurate in my eyes simply for the fact that it is no different from a move such as sucker punch. The 50/50s exist, and you have to predict, such is pokemon.
The stance that aegis limits numerous pokemon from being viable with its typing (and thus limits the team building process) are not a reason for a ban in my eyes because there is a plethora of pokemon that are able to accomplish the same. Ex: Talonflame limiting heracross, medicham, hawlucha etc.
Credit to Robert Alfons for some of these arguments.
While I acknowledge that is an amazing pokemon that is both versatile and a total powerhouse with it's incredible stats, ability and king's shield, I have to say that it is not very difficult to when facing. The current team building process for the vast majority of players already takes into account the fact that steel types are very prevalent so teams already currently carry numerous checks and countering strategies to it. It's weaknesses are fire/dark/ground/ghost; these are covered by some of the most common offensive attacks in the game with the prevalence of moves such as sucker punch, knock off, earthquake, earth power, fire blast, flare blitz etc.
By saying this I am referring not to specific pokemon that the completely shut it down, but rather a strategy in how you would deal with it. I for example deal with it by taunting it with my suicide lead which I may or may not choose to keep around, and then using pursuit with bisharp. Specs keldeo is already able to 2hko it with neutral attacks. What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a pokemon that is difficult to take down when facing even while maintaining offensive pressure on the field.
I am not experienced with playing stall so I can not comment too much on how a teal would deal with aegis, but it would require more than a single mon. Arguments stating that aegis is able to defeat mandibuzz with the headsmash sets seem to me like they are trying to put too much pressure on mandibuzz rather than their core. However, like I said, I'm not experienced with stall. Adding a wallbreaker into a stall team to deal with aegis beyond the simple core is viable in my eyes as well.
The arguments that state that aegis is able to run a multiple number of very viable sets are true in increasing the overall viability of aegis. If offensive pressure is maintained with your strategy of dealing with aegis, in my experience the differences among the sets is hazed. For example spamming knock off with bisharp. When dealing with aegis (with mons other than bisharp), stating that the king's shield 50/50s are uncompetitive is not accurate in my eyes simply for the fact that it is no different from a move such as sucker punch. The 50/50s exist, and you have to predict, such is pokemon.
The stance that aegis limits numerous pokemon from being viable with its typing (and thus limits the team building process) are not a reason for a ban in my eyes because there is a plethora of pokemon that are able to accomplish the same. Ex: Talonflame limiting heracross, medicham, hawlucha etc.
Credit to Robert Alfons for some of these arguments.
Look, I don't know about everyone else, but unless I am playing stall here, I don't build teams with two checks and counters for every single threat in OU. There are certain pokemon currently in existence, such as Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Charizard, that all require you to have something specific to deal with multiple sets, or you just get destroyed. Its also worth noting, that all of these pokemon are potentially broken, certainly some of them (if not all) are getting suspect tests ironically enough, specifically FOR THE REASONS YOU JUST MENTIONED. Keldeo on the other hand, is not one of these pokemon. Aegislash loses nothing, utterly nothing between running its standard aggressive set, or switching to Sub Toxic: either set will ruin its standard counters. There is no luck involved here, and it means that whenever Aegislash shows up in Team Preview, if you don't scout its set before bringing in your counter, you could very well lose it. Compare this to Keldeo, your own example, that needs to get "lucky" with a 30% Scald burn to even have a CHANCE at beating its counters...and you have the nerve to compare that with Aegislash. Like seriously, that would have to be one of the most retarded things I have seen within this thread, which is saying something because as a moderator yourself, you can see deleted posts within this thread. I don't run BOTH a Latias, AND a Mega Venusaur, just because "oh shit, if Keldeo gets a lucky Scald burn I'm fucked", because Keldeo is hardly overcentralising enough for me to give up both a mega slot as well as another pokemon just because I might get "lucked". Does this mean I should be packing a third check / counter just in case either Venusaur or Latias loses to a Critical Hit????
By your own admission, Aegislash requires multiple checks and counters, on the same team, to handle, and thus that really seems to point to Aegislash being an unhealthy presence within this metagame. I will assume, for your sake, that I misread that intent of your post somehow, and you did not intend to promote the above argument, and thus will refrain from using words like "idiot" or "mentally challenged" to describe your post, but I don't think you can really compare Aegislash to Keldeo mate :/
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