np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I've gotta ask, when did versatility become a means for a ban? because it's capable of playing many roles it's ban worthy? mLucario was versatile, yes, BUT, it was because it could simply run though teams if it was given the chance, which it often was, that it was booted. Aegi is not the same. Dragonite is Versatile as all shit as well. It can be a late game sweeper, a phazer,a staller, a tank, a rain sweeper, a shuffler, a wall breaker, so many possibilities, but the question is, does that make it broken? Of course not. Just because something keeps you guessing, does not make it broken by default (at least it shouldn't be). Now, if Aegi was simply clicking the win button (i.e mKanga, mLuke, mGengar) I could see the problem. However, it's not, and it can't.

I'm sorry, but these arguments against the 50/50s (which as I stated before are everywhere with every Pokemon when given the opportunity) and it's versatility aren't really convincing me this thing is ban worthy. It just means it's good at what it does.

Good 'mon =/= broken.

It's not just versatility that makes it broken, its how efficiently it could run all of those sets. Also, I do agree that versatility alone makes a mon not broken, its when it comes in a package like Aegislash when it becomes a problem. 2 stat spreads it could switch between at will, the fact that 2 of the stats in each spread is 150, allows it to do a LOT of things efficiently.

 

[Karxrida]

It's not just versatility that makes it broken, its how efficiently it could run all of those sets. Also, I do agree that versatility alone makes a mon not broken, its when it comes in a package like Aegislash when it becomes a problem. 2 stat spreads it could switch between at will, the fact that 2 of the stats in each spread is 150, allows it to do a LOT of things efficiently.

Each set has a major opportunity cost in terms of what you can deal with. Running SubToxic? Pray you don't see a Bisharp or Excadrill. Standard KS 3 Attacks? Stall doesn't care. Speed Creeping with SD and a Life Orb? Great, now something on offense has a chance to force you out and get a free buff. Head Smash for Mandi? Now you're super easy to remove from the game thanks to that recoil. This isn't like with Deo-S were you could literally put any 4 moves on it and it would do its job; each Aegislash set is carefully crafted and has different things it can or can't deal with and will often times reveal its set the moment it makes a move. While some sets screw over its checks/counters, it comes at the cost of dealing with other ones or giving other Mons the ability to deal with it, and balances it out.

Also, you only have 3 moveslots anyway because KS is pretty much mandatory.

 

[Red Cat]

Standard KS 3 Attacks? Stall doesn't care.

Most common stall Pokemon do care. Let's see how they do against Aegislash:

Chansey: no chance
Skarmory: no chance
Quagsire: can check, but can't switch into Shadow Ball
Mega Venusaur: needs Earthquake or HP Fire to do damage. Can only switch in so many times due to the low PP of Synthesis and no Lefties.
Mega Charizard X: Takes a lot of damage from Shadow Ball and gets worn down fast if SR is on the field.
Heatran: Takes a lot of damage from Sacred Sword and gets worn down fast.
Amoongus: Has to go specially defensive to beat Aegislash which reduces its effectiveness against Breloom and Azumarill.
Slowbro: no chance
Clefable: killed by Steel type attacks
Sylveon: killed by Steel type attacks
Hippowdon: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which reduces its effectiveness against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and many other physical attackers
Gliscor: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which makes it worse against physical attackers

So stall either has to run inferior moves or EV spreads to beat Aegislash. Or you have to use shit like Zapdos or Mandibuzz to beat it. Yes, those birds are shit. Zapdos's 90 / 85/ 90 defenses suck for stall, but it sees usage because it can counter Aegislash. Mandibuzz has good defenses, but has a much inferior defensive typing to Skarmory. Before you say that Mandibuzz is able to stop other Ghost and Dark types, let me help you out. Gengar shits on Mandi with Taunt + WoW, Bisharp 2HKOs Mandibuzz with Iron Head at +2 and Mandibuzz can't do much back with Foul Play, and TTar has this move called Stone Edge. So in a meta full of super powerful offensive threats, stall has to bend over backwards to stop Aegislash which leaves stall teams open to many other offensive threats. Really, the fact that Mandibuzz is #30 in the usage stats is all you need to know about how Aegislash is overcentralizing in a bad way. The Defog buff and the Dark and Ghost buff are not really what has caused Mandibuzz to skyrocket from NU to OU rank in one generation because of its performance against Ghost and Dark types which I just covered. What has really caused Mandibuzz to get to A rank on the OU viability rankings is the cancer which is Aegislash. That's how fucked up things are in OU right now where basically anything which stops Aegislash ends up in the A ranks in the viability rankings regardless of how good it is against other Pokemon.

As a stall player, I find it very difficult to build an effective team because I have to basically devote one slot to stopping Aegislash. At least if Aegislash is banned, I can go back to using stuff like Slowbro and physically defensive Gliscor to stop Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross respectively. But right now, I always have to stick a random Mandibuzz or Zapdos or specially defensive Amoongus or Gliscor on my team just to stop Aegislash, and of course I can't afford not to have an answer to it since it is so common. That's why even though I am a stall player and I keep hearing about this mega wallbreaker armageddon coming if Aegislash is banned, I still want to see it gone.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Really, the fact that Mandibuzz is #30 in the usage stats is all you need to know about how Aegislash is overcentralizing in a bad way. The Defog buff and the Dark and Ghost buff are not really what has caused Mandibuzz to skyrocket from NU to OU rank in one generation because of its performance against Ghost and Dark types which I just covered. What has really caused Mandibuzz to get to A rank on the OU viability rankings is the cancer which is Aegislash. That's how fucked up things are in OU right now where basically anything which stops Aegislash ends up in the A ranks in the viability rankings regardless of how good it is against other Pokemon.

I was afraid to say this because I wasn't nearly as active last gen on the simulator, so I thought I wasn't in the know enough to make the claim. But I remember when I first opened the OU viability thread and was blown away to see Bisharp was even on it, let alone how freaking high up he was. I always thought Bisharp was about as memorable as Toxicroak. I mean it’s got a little bit better Atk, but everything else about it is so forgettable, especially with a x4 Fighting weakness. But then I figured: well, Dark got buffs in Steel neutrality and the Knock Off boost and Fighting became way less common 'cause of Fairies and 2 specific Pokemon (Talonflame and Aegislash itself) So maybe that was enough to put Bisharp over the edge? maybe? Though it's still is weak to EQ, and Fire and other than Atk has just all around sub average stats. it just had me turning my head until I read it's write up and realized it was basically for taking on Aegislash.

IMO Defiant shenanigans are very close to being gimmicks. Sticky Web is not so common anymore, definitely not something you can rely on anyways. Same deal for "relying on" Initmidate, like it's cool if you can get an attack boost from an Intimidate, but it's not like your opponent's guaranteed to pack something with Intimidate or dumb enough to just send it in. And when you do get one of those boosts it's just like "congrats you're still a slow monster with too many weaknesses that got itself boosted to a level tons of other things can reach easier." I meant that what people would say if you pulled the same crap with Primeape and pretend that's what made him A+. The one thing you can really count on Defiant to do is counter King’s Shield... that and you can sometimes use it to “punish” Defog. But I would never put Bisharp on a team just because now I can “punish” defog users. That’s like the same amount of utility as trying to keep hazards off your side with Magic Bounce. Sometimes you can do it but it people see it coming from a mile away. And other than killing Aegislash I can fill every other role Bisharp plays with faster/stronger things less weak to common moves.

I’m pretty sure Bisharp is a gimmick in OU the moment Aegislash isn't in it. Well not a gimmick, but a lot of other things will put his team slot to a lot better use. He should almost instantly go from A+ to something UU, as even if it's still "viable" on an OU team there's gonna be better choices almost all the time.

Mandibuzz, is more useful, and I still think was hella underrated last gen (albeit it too got a billion tiny buffs that sort of summed up to a lot, #1 being Defog) But yeah it should be a little bit lower usage as well.

 

[Karxrida]

I was afraid to say this because I wasn't nearly as active last gen on the simulator, so I thought I wasn't in the know enough to make the claim. But I remember when I first opened the OU viability thread and was blown away to see Bisharp was even on it, let alone how freaking high up he was. I always thought Bisharp was about as memorable as Toxicroak. I mean it’s got a little bit better atk, but everything else about it is so forgettable, especially with a x4 Fighting weakness. Any typing that gives that weakness was basically a no go in OU. But then I figured: well, Dark got a buffs in Steel neutrality and Knock Off boost and Fighting became way less common 'cause of Fairies and 2 specific Pokemon (Talonflame and Aegislash itself) So maybe that was enough to put Bisharp over the edge? maybe? though it's still is weak to EQ, and Fire and other than attack has just all around sub average stats. it just had me turning my head until I read it's write up and realized it was basically for taking on Aegislash.

IMO Defiant shenanigans are very close to being gimmicks. Sticky Web is not so common anymore, definitely not something you can rely on anyways. Same deal for "relying on" Initmidate, like it's cool if you can get an attack boost from it Intimidate, but it's not like your opponents guaranteed to pack something with Intimidate or dumb enough to just send it in. And when you do get one of those boosts it's just like "congrats you're still a slow monster with too many weaknesses that got its'ef boosted t oa level tons of other things can reach easier." I meant that what people would say if you pulled the same crap with Primeape and pretend that's what made him A+. The one thing you can really count on Defiant to do is counter King’s Shield... that and you can sometimes use it to “punish” Defog. But I would never put Bisharp on a team just because now I can “punish” defog users. That’s like the same amount of utility as trying to keep hazards off your side with Magic Bounce. Sometimes you can do it but it people see it coming from a mile away. And other than killing Aegislash I can fill every other role Bisharp plays with faster/stronger things less weak to common moves.

I’m pretty sure Bisharp is a gimmick in OU the moment Aegislash isn't in it. Well not a gimmick, but a lot of other things will put his team slot to a lot better use. He should almost instantly go from A+ to something UU, as even if it's still "viable" on an OU team there's gonna be better choices almost all the time.

Mandibuzz, is more useful, and I still think was hella underrated last gen (albeit it too got a billion tiny buffs that sort of summed up to a lot, #1 being Defog) But yeah it should be a little bit lower usage as well.

Tyranitar has a x4 Fighting weakness, so it's obviously shit.

Have you ever used a Bisharp? The thing is amazing. Defiant is the only way to punish Defog and can turn the tide of a battle immediately, with the bonus of turning Intimidaters like Lando-T into completely liabilities. STAB +2 Knock Off is something that very little wants to switch into and the few that can stomach it have to be wary of a +2 Iron Head. It can Pursuit trap like T-Tar but without killing momentum since it doesn't need a Scarf to threaten the Latis and can decide to go "lol Swords Dance" and sweep.

Dealing with Aegislash is just a delicious bonus. I don't see how something that was ever even considered for S-Rank at one point can be considered a "gimmick".

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Tyranitar has a x4 Fighting weakness, so it's obviously shit.

Have you ever used a Bisharp? The thing is amazing. Defiant is the only way to punish Defog and can turn the tide of a battle immediately, with the bonus of turning Intimidaters like Lando-T into completely liabilities. STAB +2 Knock Off is something that very little wants to switch into and the few that can stomach it have to be wary of a +2 Iron Head. It can Pursuit trap like T-Tar but without killing momentum since it doesn't need a Scarf to threaten the Latis and can decide to go "lol Swords Dance" and sweep.

Dealing with Aegislash is just a delicious bonus. I don't see how something that was ever even considered for S-Rank at one point can be considered a "gimmick".

I haven't used Bisharp much, no, but I have used him before. And when I see Bisharps I don't just blindly click Defog either. Yeah he's good, it's just that like half the stuff you listed is dependent on your opponent's Pokemon and moves and the other halfis stuff that other OU Pokemon can do just as well. Like others can trap and tons of Pokemon can get to +2 and start wrecking things and they have better speed and don't get OHKOed by brick break. his only difference is that he can occasionally get the +2 boost from an opponent's move, situationaly. And I don't want to run damage calcs and compare how he matches up to a bunch of stuff cause that's what makes this thread horrible, but using him to give Landorus-T a hard time seems kind of shaky with an EQ weakness, more like his ability just makes Landorus-T think twice about coming in on him.

Anyway, you could very well be right and I don't have a clue what I'm saying, but if i was venturing a guess, without Aegislash most all his roles can be delegated to better things. His main niche in OU will be the whole "punishing defog" concept. Which would make him a lot like Magic Bounce Espeon or something. Like he's kind of good and if you predict a defog and switch him in you'll screw over you opponent, but that's an IF and a guessing game, an opening your opponent has to give you not one you make for yourself. So in the grand scheme of most of your battles is he really worth the team slot?

 

[alexwolf]

Most common stall Pokemon do care. Let's see how they do against Aegislash:

Chansey: no chance
Skarmory: no chance
Quagsire: can check, but can't switch into Shadow Ball
Mega Venusaur: needs Earthquake or HP Fire to do damage. Can only switch in so many times due to the low PP of Synthesis and no Lefties.
Mega Charizard X: Takes a lot of damage from Shadow Ball and gets worn down fast if SR is on the field.
Heatran: Takes a lot of damage from Sacred Sword and gets worn down fast.
Amoongus: Has to go specially defensive to beat Aegislash which reduces its effectiveness against Breloom and Azumarill.
Slowbro: no chance
Clefable: killed by Steel type attacks
Sylveon: killed by Steel type attacks
Hippowdon: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which reduces its effectiveness against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and many other physical attackers
Gliscor: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which makes it worse against physical attackers

So stall either has to run inferior moves or EV spreads to beat Aegislash. Or you have to use shit like Zapdos or Mandibuzz to beat it. Yes, those birds are shit. Zapdos's 90 / 85/ 90 defenses suck for stall, but it sees usage because it can counter Aegislash. Mandibuzz has good defenses, but has a much inferior defensive typing to Skarmory. Before you say that Mandibuzz is able to stop other Ghost and Dark types, let me help you out. Gengar shits on Mandi with Taunt + WoW, Bisharp 2HKOs Mandibuzz with Iron Head at +2 and Mandibuzz can't do much back with Foul Play, and TTar has this move called Stone Edge. So in a meta full of super powerful offensive threats, stall has to bend over backwards to stop Aegislash which leaves stall teams open to many other offensive threats. Really, the fact that Mandibuzz is #30 in the usage stats is all you need to know about how Aegislash is overcentralizing in a bad way. The Defog buff and the Dark and Ghost buff are not really what has caused Mandibuzz to skyrocket from NU to OU rank in one generation because of its performance against Ghost and Dark types which I just covered. What has really caused Mandibuzz to get to A rank on the OU viability rankings is the cancer which is Aegislash. That's how fucked up things are in OU right now where basically anything which stops Aegislash ends up in the A ranks in the viability rankings regardless of how good it is against other Pokemon.

As a stall player, I find it very difficult to build an effective team because I have to basically devote one slot to stopping Aegislash. At least if Aegislash is banned, I can go back to using stuff like Slowbro and physically defensive Gliscor to stop Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross respectively. But right now, I always have to stick a random Mandibuzz or Zapdos or specially defensive Amoongus or Gliscor on my team just to stop Aegislash, and of course I can't afford not to have an answer to it since it is so common. That's why even though I am a stall player and I keep hearing about this mega wallbreaker armageddon coming if Aegislash is banned, I still want to see it gone.

This post is ridiculous. Mandibuzz has a ton of other uses other than beating Aegislash, such as being an excellent Defog thanks to Taunt and good match-up against common offensive SR users (Garchomp, Landorus) and being a check to a ton of physical threats, such as Garchomp, Landorus, Mega Charizard X, Excadrill, Talonflame, and Mega Scizor. Zapdos is also a very useful Pokemon although not as useful as Mandibuzz, and when considering it for your team, Aegislash is one of the last reasons you think of when wanting o use Zapdos. It deals with Flying spam to a pretty good degree, can check Landorus, Bisharp, Azumarill, and Mega Scizor, and is also a pretty solid Defog user with reliable recovery.

Most of the checks and counters used in stall have a ton of uses other than dealing with Aegislash, even Aegislash's hard counters, such as SpD Gliscor and SpD Amonguss.

 

[Red Cat]

This post is ridiculous. Mandibuzz has a ton of other uses other than beating Aegislash, such as being an excellent Defog thanks to Taunt and good match-up against common offensive SR users (Garchomp, Landorus) and being a check to a ton of physical threats, such as Garchomp, Landorus, Mega Charizard X, Excadrill, Talonflame, and Mega Scizor. Zapdos is also a very useful Pokemon although not as useful as Mandibuzz, and when considering it for your team, Aegislash is one of the last reasons you think of when wanting o use Zapdos. It deals with Flying spam to a pretty good degree, can check Landorus, Bisharp, Azumarill, and Mega Scizor, and is also a pretty solid Defog user with reliable recovery.

Most of the checks and counters used in stall have a ton of uses other than dealing with Aegislash, even Aegislash's hard counters, such as SpD Gliscor and SpD Amonguss.

Skarmory is superior to Mandibuzz for the most part. It isn't weak to SR, it can also Taunt and Defog, and it can set its own rocks. While Mandibuzz can "check" a lot of Pokemon, checking is almost worthless for a stall team which needs to keep its walls alive to win. Mandibuzz does not counter as many threats as Skarmory due to its much inferior typing and SR weakness. Zapdos does not deal with Flying spam. If you are using a specially defense set, which I assume you are if you are using it to counter Aegislash, it is 2HKOed by Talonflame's Flare Blitz and can be 2HKOed by Mega Pinsir after SR. Staraptor murders it with Double Edge too. Everything else you listed is just checked by Zapdos, so a stall team will still have to find counters to all of those threats anyway, but now you have only 5 teamslots to do that with since you are devoting one primarily for stopping Aegislash.

SpD Gliscor is not that useful outside of countering Aegislash and Landorus, which may also be suspected at some point (and it isn't that great at countering Landorus if it hasn't activated Toxic Orb because of Knock Off). By running a specially defensive spread on Gliscor, you lose the ability to wall a ton of physical threats which can be walled with by a defensive variant. Specially defensive Amoongus is not very good outside of dealing with Aegislash and Keldeo. It could counter Thundurus if it weren't forced to run Foul Play instead of Sludge Bomb in order to deal with Aegislash.

Stall Pokemon designed to counter Aegislash may be able to counter a small number of other offensive threats, but in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of offensive threats this generation, so dedicating one teamslot to counter Aegislash and a handful of other threats makes it very difficult for stall to succeed this generation. And I haven't even talked about SubToxic Aegislash. If you want to deal with that, you likely have to devote another teamslot for that. A Pokemon which can force multiple changes on stall teams while still being extremely good against offensive teams is absolutely unhealthy for the meta.

 

[Sun King]

Most common stall Pokemon do care. Let's see how they do against Aegislash:

Chansey: no chance
Skarmory: no chance
Quagsire: can check, but can't switch into Shadow Ball
Mega Venusaur: needs Earthquake or HP Fire to do damage. Can only switch in so many times due to the low PP of Synthesis and no Lefties.
Mega Charizard X: Takes a lot of damage from Shadow Ball and gets worn down fast if SR is on the field.
Heatran: Takes a lot of damage from Sacred Sword and gets worn down fast.
Amoongus: Has to go specially defensive to beat Aegislash which reduces its effectiveness against Breloom and Azumarill.
Slowbro: no chance
Clefable: killed by Steel type attacks
Sylveon: killed by Steel type attacks
Hippowdon: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which reduces its effectiveness against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and many other physical attackers
Gliscor: needs to go specially defensive to beat Aegi which makes it worse against physical attackers

So stall either has to run inferior moves or EV spreads to beat Aegislash. Or you have to use shit like Zapdos or Mandibuzz to beat it. Yes, those birds are shit. Zapdos's 90 / 85/ 90 defenses suck for stall, but it sees usage because it can counter Aegislash. Mandibuzz has good defenses, but has a much inferior defensive typing to Skarmory. Before you say that Mandibuzz is able to stop other Ghost and Dark types, let me help you out. Gengar shits on Mandi with Taunt + WoW, Bisharp 2HKOs Mandibuzz with Iron Head at +2 and Mandibuzz can't do much back with Foul Play, and TTar has this move called Stone Edge. So in a meta full of super powerful offensive threats, stall has to bend over backwards to stop Aegislash which leaves stall teams open to many other offensive threats. Really, the fact that Mandibuzz is #30 in the usage stats is all you need to know about how Aegislash is overcentralizing in a bad way. The Defog buff and the Dark and Ghost buff are not really what has caused Mandibuzz to skyrocket from NU to OU rank in one generation because of its performance against Ghost and Dark types which I just covered. What has really caused Mandibuzz to get to A rank on the OU viability rankings is the cancer which is Aegislash. That's how fucked up things are in OU right now where basically anything which stops Aegislash ends up in the A ranks in the viability rankings regardless of how good it is against other Pokemon.

As a stall player, I find it very difficult to build an effective team because I have to basically devote one slot to stopping Aegislash. At least if Aegislash is banned, I can go back to using stuff like Slowbro and physically defensive Gliscor to stop Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross respectively. But right now, I always have to stick a random Mandibuzz or Zapdos or specially defensive Amoongus or Gliscor on my team just to stop Aegislash, and of course I can't afford not to have an answer to it since it is so common. That's why even though I am a stall player and I keep hearing about this mega wallbreaker armageddon coming if Aegislash is banned, I still want to see it gone.

Okay, so stall definitely has some staples, but I don't remember reading a manual anywhere that said you HAD to use any--much less ALL--of what you just listed. Stall is meant to counter the meta--Aegislash included. Some of Aegislash's best counters (don't give me the "it doesn't counter everything" BS, because they counter all but one set each), namely Amoongus and Chesnaught, have great utility outside of just countering Aegislash. I ought to direct you to the wonder that is SubSeed Chesnaught. That thing can force so many switches and rack up so much residual damage it's not even funny. Amoongus helps form great Regenerator cores, as well as bringing a great Grass/Poison typing to the table. It's also my opinion that Amoongus is best when it's running mixed bulk. You can still counter BD Azumarill and Aegislash with the same set. You just have to do the extra number crunching with the damage calculator. The benefits that Aegislash brings GREATLY outrank the hindrances, hence why so many defensive players don't want him gone. If your argument for wanting Aegislash banned is because you don't want to prepare for it, then don't play stall. When you play stall, you sign up to prepare for every major threat, then every subsequent threat. I have seen a number of very successful stall teams built that each handle Aegislash--hell--I've even made successful stall teams that handle Aegislash. I have said it before, and I'll say it again--it's really easy to justify running one of Aegislash's counter on stall. They bring great synergy to the team, and counter some of the meta's most prevalent pokemon.

EDIT: On second glance, a lot of what you said was just saying which pokemon counter Aegislash's counters. I find that silly to bring up, as pretty much everything has a counter fuck off Calm Mind Landorus

 

[Srn]

Skarmory is superior to Mandibuzz for the most part. It isn't weak to SR, it can also Taunt and Defog, and it can set its own rocks. While Mandibuzz can "check" a lot of Pokemon, checking is almost worthless for a stall team which needs to keep its walls alive to win. Mandibuzz does not counter as many threats as Skarmory due to its much inferior typing and SR weakness. Zapdos does not deal with Flying spam. If you are using a specially defense set, which I assume you are if you are using it to counter Aegislash, it is 2HKOed by Talonflame's Flare Blitz and can be 2HKOed by Mega Pinsir after SR. Staraptor murders it with Double Edge too. Everything else you listed is just checked by Zapdos, so a stall team will still have to find counters to all of those threats anyway, but now you have only 5 teamslots to do that with since you are devoting one primarily for stopping Aegislash.

SpD Gliscor is not that useful outside of countering Aegislash and Landorus, which may also be suspected at some point (and it isn't that great at countering Landorus if it hasn't activated Toxic Orb because of Knock Off). By running a specially defensive spread on Gliscor, you lose the ability to wall a ton of physical threats which can be walled with by a defensive variant. Specially defensive Amoongus is not very good outside of dealing with Aegislash and Keldeo. It could counter Thundurus if it weren't forced to run Foul Play instead of Sludge Bomb in order to deal with Aegislash.

Stall Pokemon designed to counter Aegislash may be able to counter a small number of other offensive threats, but in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of offensive threats this generation, so dedicating one teamslot to counter Aegislash and a handful of other threats makes it very difficult for stall to succeed this generation. And I haven't even talked about SubToxic Aegislash. If you want to deal with that, you likely have to devote another teamslot for that. A Pokemon which can force multiple changes on stall teams while still being extremely good against offensive teams is absolutely unhealthy for the meta.

You make sense for the most part, but your second paragraph makes me puke dude seriously.
"SpD gliscor is not that useful."
yeah it only breaks stall almost singlehandedly, counters some of (if not the) the most threatening pokemon in the tier (aegis and lando), still can annoy some physical threats it counters with the physical set (like lando-t, exca, etc) and is in general seriously amazing. Hell, you even beat rotom-w on the switch-in; since your faster and hydro pump doesn't do enough damage to break you after poison heal and roost. What's better is that you don't even give a damn about will-o and you even prevent volt switch, and trust me, a well-played rotom-w is one of the most annoying pokemon to deal with :< There's a good reason its on like 60% of wcop teams; its much more than "not that useful"

Specially defensive amoong is pretty superior for the most part as the only variant of azu you even lose to even with the physical variant is BD.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 478-563 (110.6 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 321-378 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

You barely even deal with it better, if at all. and ofc other than that sp def amoong pretty much wins 1v1 against every other azu unless CB ice punch/return ?_?

Thundurus is pretty damn uncounterable because it does so many things, and even if you're not carrying sludge bomb
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 102-121 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 104-123 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The difference is pretty hard to notice lol (foul play is against 4 attack LO naive thundurus btw, those with knock off and/or superpower are becoming very common)

And what else does physical amoong win against that special amoong doesn't in terms of physical threats anyway? Not anything that ONLY physical amoong can really do anyways; physical amoong is the more inferior set here imo :S Common partners like slowbro are better at handling tha physical threats like megados and what not.

 

[Red Cat]

You make sense for the most part, but your second paragraph makes me puke dude seriously.
"SpD gliscor is not that useful."
yeah it only breaks stall almost singlehandedly, counters some of (if not the) the most threatening pokemon in the tier (aegis and lando), still can annoy some physical threats it counters with the physical set (like lando-t, exca, etc) and is in general seriously amazing. Hell, you even beat rotom-w on the switch-in; since your faster and hydro pump doesn't do enough damage to break you after poison heal and roost. What's better is that you don't even give a damn about will-o and you even prevent volt switch, and trust me, a well-played rotom-w is one of the most annoying pokemon to deal with :< There's a good reason its on like 60% of wcop teams; its much more than "not that useful"

Specially defensive amoong is pretty superior for the most part as the only variant of azu you even lose to even with the physical variant is BD.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 478-563 (110.6 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 321-378 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

You barely even deal with it better, if at all. and ofc other than that sp def amoong pretty much wins 1v1 against every other azu unless CB ice punch/return ?_?

Thundurus is pretty damn uncounterable because it does so many things, and even if you're not carrying sludge bomb
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 102-121 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 104-123 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The difference is pretty hard to notice lol (foul play is against 4 attack LO naive thundurus btw, those with knock off and/or superpower are becoming very common)

And what else does physical amoong win against that special amoong doesn't in terms of physical threats anyway? Not anything that ONLY physical amoong can really do anyways; physical amoong is the more inferior set here imo :S Common partners like slowbro are better at handling tha physical threats like megados and what not.

Rotom-W still can 2HKO SpD Gliscor with Hydro Pump and has a very good chance of doing so if SR is up. Everything else you said is done by physically defensive sets. So tell me why is the specially defensive set better than a physically defensive set? What happened to banning something because it forces players to run inferior sets? After all, isn't this why we nerfed Baton Pass and banned chain passing entirely? Similarly, how is specially defensively Amoongus better than physically defensive Amoongus? Physically defensive does better against many physical attackers like Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Garchomp, TTar, Terrakion, Diggersby, and Conkeldurr as well as faring better against BD Azumarill. Most common special attackers hit Amoongus for super effective damage, so generally physically defensive allows it to cover many more threats than specially defensive. So you are running an inferior spread primarily to beat Aegislash.

A lot of the arguments here about SpD Amoongus and SpD Gliscor sound like a lot of the arguments about Moltres, Volcarona, and other niche Genesect counters when it was being suspected. They are / were good Pokemon in the sense that they were some of the few Pokemon which countered the suspect, but are generally inferior overall which is why thankfully barely enough people came to their senses and banned Genesect and why they will hopefully do the same for Aegislash.

 

[Karxrida]

Rotom-W still can 2HKO SpD Gliscor with Hydro Pump and has a very good chance of doing so if SR is up. Everything else you said is done by physically defensive sets. So tell me why is the specially defensive set better than a physically defensive set? What happened to banning something because it forces players to run inferior sets? After all, isn't this why we nerfed Baton Pass and banned chain passing entirely? Similarly, how is specially defensively Amoongus better than physically defensive Amoongus? Physically defensive does better against many physical attackers like Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Garchomp, TTar, Terrakion, Diggersby, and Conkeldurr as well as faring better against BD Azumarill. Most common special attackers hit Amoongus for super effective damage, so generally physically defensive allows it to cover many more threats than specially defensive. So you are running an inferior spread primarily to beat Aegislash.

A lot of the arguments here about SpD Amoongus and SpD Gliscor sound like a lot of the arguments about Moltres, Volcarona, and other niche Genesect counters when it was being suspected. They are / were good Pokemon in the sense that they were some of the few Pokemon which countered the suspect, but are generally inferior overall which is why thankfully barely enough people came to their senses and banned Genesect and why they will hopefully do the same for Aegislash.

Gliscor outspeeds Rotom-W so it can Roost; Wash isn't winning unless it dose some major speed creeping.

SpD Gliscor and Amoongus are completely legit to use since they do something other than deal with Aegislash (SpD Gliscor was created specifically for Lando-I, btw). They are not niche in the slightest and have notable perks that differentiate themselves from the competition (Amoongus has Spore, Regenerator, and passive recovery to make it worth using over Mega Venu and also frees you up for Zard X on your stall team).

 

[Sun King]

Rotom-W still can 2HKO SpD Gliscor with Hydro Pump and has a very good chance of doing so if SR is up. Everything else you said is done by physically defensive sets. So tell me why is the specially defensive set better than a physically defensive set? What happened to banning something because it forces players to run inferior sets? After all, isn't this why we nerfed Baton Pass and banned chain passing entirely? Similarly, how is specially defensively Amoongus better than physically defensive Amoongus? Physically defensive does better against many physical attackers like Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Garchomp, TTar, Terrakion, Diggersby, and Conkeldurr as well as faring better against BD Azumarill. Most common special attackers hit Amoongus for super effective damage, so generally physically defensive allows it to cover many more threats than specially defensive. So you are running an inferior spread primarily to beat Aegislash.

A lot of the arguments here about SpD Amoongus and SpD Gliscor sound like a lot of the arguments about Moltres, Volcarona, and other niche Genesect counters when it was being suspected. They are / were good Pokemon in the sense that they were some of the few Pokemon which countered the suspect, but are generally inferior overall which is why thankfully barely enough people came to their senses and banned Genesect and why they will hopefully do the same for Aegislash.

SpD Gliscor is one of the few things that actually counters Lando-I. Since you play stall, you should know what a pain in the ass he is, and what a godsend Gliscor is for countering him.

 

[Red Cat]

Gliscor outspeeds Rotom-W so it can Roost; Wash isn't winning unless it dose some major speed creeping.

SpD Gliscor and Amoongus are completely legit to use since they do something other than deal with Aegislash (SpD Gliscor was created specifically for Lando-I, btw). They are not niche in the slightest and have notable perks that differentiate themselves from the competition (Amoongus has Spore, Regenerator, and passive recovery to make it worth using over Mega Venu and also frees you up for Zard X on your stall team).

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Gliscor: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Yeah, let's see how that Roost stalling works out if SR is up. Landorus-I might be broken itself and there are better counters for it which aren't completely crippled by Knock Off. Amoongus is good, but physically defensive Amoongus is better than specially defensive.

Specially defensive Gliscor was created specifically for Aegislash and Landorus-I, two borderline Ubers in this meta. So what? Gastrodon counters both Kyogre and Reshiram, should we let those two roam around in OU because Gastrodon isn't solely used to counter one or the other? Please stop trying to convince people that SpD Gliscor is anything but a niche set which is only viable because it counters two overpowered threats.

 

[Sun King]

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Gliscor: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Yeah, let's see how that Roost stalling works out if SR is up. Landorus-I might be broken itself and there are better counters for it which aren't completely crippled by Knock Off. Amoongus is good, but physically defensive Amoongus is better than specially defensive.

Specially defensive Gliscor was created specifically for Aegislash and Landorus-I, two borderline Ubers in this meta. So what? Gastrodon counters both Kyogre and Reshiram, should we let those two roam around in OU because Gastrodon isn't solely used to counter one or the other? Please stop trying to convince people that SpD Gliscor is anything but a niche set which is only viable because it counters two overpowered threats.

Let me remind you...

"SpD gliscor is not that useful."
yeah it only breaks stall almost singlehandedly

 

[Red Cat]

You can do the same with physically defensive Gliscor! What part of running an inferior spread don't you get? Give me a list of some things SpD Gliscor does better at walling than physically defensive Gliscor besides Aegi and Lando. You are just wasting that great physical bulk for the sake of walling two threats which probably shouldn't be in OU.

Edit: I should just stop posting here. People will call any counter for Aegislash good for the sake of keeping their favorite swiss army knife in OU just like they did with Genesect.

Edit 2: But when Baton Pass was being suspected, being forced to run inferior sets was evil. Could it maybe possibly have something to do with the fact that Aegislash is more popular than Baton Pass and more people use Aegislash on their teams?

 

[Sun King]

You can do the same with physically defensive Gliscor! What part of running an inferior spread don't you get? Give me a list of some things SpD Gliscor does better at walling than physically defensive Gliscor besides Aegi and Lando. You are just wasting that great physical bulk for the sake of walling two threats which probably shouldn't be in OU.

The part I don't get is that Landorus is still in OU, so I will still prepare for it using one of the only solid answers to it. Rather than bitch about the threats to stall, I prefer to prepare for them. If Aegislash is gone, Landorus still isn't going anywhere; Specially Defensive Gliscor will still be one of the most reliable answers to him, and I will continue to use him as such.

 

[Zebstrika]

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Gliscor: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Yeah, let's see how that Roost stalling works out if SR is up. Landorus-I might be broken itself and there are better counters for it which aren't completely crippled by Knock Off. Amoongus is good, but physically defensive Amoongus is better than specially defensive.

Specially defensive Gliscor was created specifically for Aegislash and Landorus-I, two borderline Ubers in this meta. So what? Gastrodon counters both Kyogre and Reshiram, should we let those two roam around in OU because Gastrodon isn't solely used to counter one or the other? Please stop trying to convince people that SpD Gliscor is anything but a niche set which is only viable because it counters two overpowered threats.

I have personally stalled out Rotom-W with SpD Gliscor, it really only fails Rotom crits. Yes you will net a loss of about 10% health per turn, but every now and then Rotom-W misses, allowing you to gain that health back.

Like here is a suspect ladder match where SpD Gliscor puts in work, sorry about the length. And I don't even run Taunt on mine (no other options for my SR setter) or I could have broken some of his other mons like his Clefable.

 

[Giometry]

You can do the same with physically defensive Gliscor! What part of running an inferior spread don't you get? Give me a list of some things SpD Gliscor does better at walling than physically defensive Gliscor besides Aegi and Lando. You are just wasting that great physical bulk for the sake of walling two threats which probably shouldn't be in OU.

Edit: I should just stop posting here. People will call any counter for Aegislash good for the sake of keeping their favorite swiss army knife in OU just like they did with Genesect.

Edit 2: But when Baton Pass was being suspected, being forced to run inferior sets was evil. Could it maybe possibly have something to do with the fact that Aegislash is more popular than Baton Pass and more people use Aegislash on their teams?

Ahem inferior spread?!?! Why the hell wouldn't you use the spread that allows you to wall the majority of the things the other spread does as well as some other metagame defining threats and making you bulky on both sides whilst STILL wrecking stall. Yeah, inferior spread alright.

 

[Jukain]

alright so...

nobody uses any defoggers but skarm on stall. mandi and zapdos are basically irrelevant as far as stall is concerned, don't even bring them up.

aegi shits on most of a standard stall team. it takes a dump on chansey, skarm, venu, clefable, and alomomola, and other things are not all exactly switch-ins like quag, slowbro, and non-spdef hippo. char x doesn't like switching in espec with sr up, and typically can't even do that much to it. what it does is turn these pokemon into liabilities by giving itself multiple switch-in opportunities.

on the flip side, stall commonly runs spdef gliscor and/or amoon, the two best aegislash answers in the game.

so basically what happens is, with smart play and teammates, you slam pressure on these limited counters (amoon can be neutered with like, a keldeo scald burn, you can wear it into sball 2hko range from there. gliscor is harder but manageable). it doesn't dismantle an entire stall team on its own, nobody's saying it should do that, but it puts enormous pressure on a stall team. there's also head smash which blasts gliscor and amoon :]

 

[Pyritie]

Edit 2: But when Baton Pass was being suspected, being forced to run inferior sets was evil. Could it maybe possibly have something to do with the fact that Aegislash is more popular than Baton Pass and more people use Aegislash on their teams?

Because running non-contact dark/ghost/fire/ground moves to deal with aegislash is a LOT easier and doesn't detract much from your team's overall effectiveness like running obscure shit like haze, BP imprison musharna, and mold breaker roar does

 

[alexwolf]

Skarmory is superior to Mandibuzz for the most part. It isn't weak to SR, it can also Taunt and Defog, and it can set its own rocks. While Mandibuzz can "check" a lot of Pokemon, checking is almost worthless for a stall team which needs to keep its walls alive to win. Mandibuzz does not counter as many threats as Skarmory due to its much inferior typing and SR weakness. Zapdos does not deal with Flying spam. If you are using a specially defense set, which I assume you are if you are using it to counter Aegislash, it is 2HKOed by Talonflame's Flare Blitz and can be 2HKOed by Mega Pinsir after SR. Staraptor murders it with Double Edge too. Everything else you listed is just checked by Zapdos, so a stall team will still have to find counters to all of those threats anyway, but now you have only 5 teamslots to do that with since you are devoting one primarily for stopping Aegislash.

SpD Gliscor is not that useful outside of countering Aegislash and Landorus, which may also be suspected at some point (and it isn't that great at countering Landorus if it hasn't activated Toxic Orb because of Knock Off). By running a specially defensive spread on Gliscor, you lose the ability to wall a ton of physical threats which can be walled with by a defensive variant. Specially defensive Amoongus is not very good outside of dealing with Aegislash and Keldeo. It could counter Thundurus if it weren't forced to run Foul Play instead of Sludge Bomb in order to deal with Aegislash.

Stall Pokemon designed to counter Aegislash may be able to counter a small number of other offensive threats, but in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of offensive threats this generation, so dedicating one teamslot to counter Aegislash and a handful of other threats makes it very difficult for stall to succeed this generation. And I haven't even talked about SubToxic Aegislash. If you want to deal with that, you likely have to devote another teamslot for that. A Pokemon which can force multiple changes on stall teams while still being extremely good against offensive teams is absolutely unhealthy for the meta.

Who talked about a SpD set on Zapdos? Its best set is physically defensive, which can also check Aegislash as it avoids the 2HKO from Shadow Ball after Lefties and can threaten Aegislash with Heat Wave. Yeah, it's not a very good check, but it can scout for Aegi's moveslot and tangle with it a bit.

Have you ever used Mandibuzz? Because, from what you say, you fail to recognize Mandibuzz's biggest assets, which are lack of Fire weakness and thus the ability to deal with one of the most important threats in OU, Mega Charizard X, great special bulk (hi Landorus, Mega Venusaur, Latios, Latias, etc), and Foul Play, which allows it to deal damage back without having to depend on the unreliable Counter. And i never talked about Mandibuzz being used on stall, i was just talking about Mandibuzz as a Pokemon in general.

And Gliscor is not that useful outside of countering Aegislash and Landorus? What about Gengar then, one of the most popular and annoying stallbreakers for stall? Or CM Magic Guard Clefable, another problematic Pokemon for stall teams? Or what about AV Torn-T, also a very annoying Pokemon for stall teams to face, due to the combination of Knock Off, U-turn, and the ability to threaten most MEvos with either Hurricane or Heat Wave? So yes, outside of dealing with Landorus and Gengar, two of stall's biggest problems, and Torn-T and CM Clefable, two very real threat to stall, Gliscor is useless. And Quagsire, outside of dealing with Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, and BD Azumarill is mostly useless. But things don't work like that. SpD Gliscor can take on some of the biggest threats to stall, and this is what makes it a great set. Yeah Aegislash is one of them, but far from the only one. Landorus getting suspected is not relevant to the discussion we are having right now, because it's just an assumption. So, let's not base our discussion around assumptions and try to base them on facts. Gliscor does a ton of things for stall teams, and would be used even without Aegislash in the metagame. Instead of picking very viable sets and try to prove they are only used to deal with Aegislash (SpD Gliscor and Mandibuzz), which is a futile endeavor (every good players knows this is not the case) and a shitty argument, try to focus on other arguments with more substance to convince others that Aegislash is broken, such as a negative effect in the metagame or individual brokeness.

You are accusing us of doing everything to make Aegislash seem not broken, but how can you say this when you just called Mandibuzz and SpD Gliscor situational Pokemon that are mostly used because of Aegislash (especially when Mandibuzz loses to 3/4 of Aegi's sets, lol)? This is desperate, simply put.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I want Aegislash gone really bad, but I would just like to say that we on the proban side do not agree with RedCat when he says spdef gliscor is trash :]. Spdef Gliscor is amazing I mean I am pretty sure it could beat suicune 1v1, and I know it fares well against slowbo and quagsire, not to mention lando-i, venusaur, zapdos, latios/latias, and yeah I have seen him beat stall teams single handedly even in a wcop match.

And on the whole mandibuzz thing, I doubt it will see any usage on any type of team because mega pinsir mollywhops it if there is SR on the field(which is likely considering mandibuzz is the defogger), so yeah I say with 100% confidence that skarm would get more usage and mandibuzz would get less.

I wanted to bring up a quick question though, why werent we accusing aegislash from being broken back when deosharp + air balloon aegi was a thing?, I am pretty sure that was when he was at his most powerful. but yeah anyway I just want to re-emphasize that the proban side does not think spdef gliscor is trash, please dont use that against us.

 

[Sun King]

alright so...

nobody uses any defoggers but skarm on stall. mandi and zapdos are basically irrelevant as far as stall is concerned, don't even bring them up.

aegi shits on most of a standard stall team. it takes a dump on chansey, skarm, venu, clefable, and alomomola, and other things are not all exactly switch-ins like quag, slowbro, and non-spdef hippo. char x doesn't like switching in espec with sr up, and typically can't even do that much to it. what it does is turn these pokemon into liabilities by giving itself multiple switch-in opportunities.

on the flip side, stall commonly runs spdef gliscor and/or amoon, the two best aegislash answers in the game.

so basically what happens is, with smart play and teammates, you slam pressure on these limited counters (amoon can be neutered with like, a keldeo scald burn, you can wear it into sball 2hko range from there. gliscor is harder but manageable). it doesn't dismantle an entire stall team on its own, nobody's saying it should do that, but it puts enormous pressure on a stall team. there's also head smash which blasts gliscor and amoon :]

The first part--I'll disagree with you there. There are other viable defoggers for stall, Skarm just gets used the most because people are obsessed with the SkarmChans core.

The second part--you're more or less right here. However, that's assuming the stall player doesn't make good switches too. If the stall player can maintain the momentum, it doesn't really matter what the teammates are. That pretty much goes for any threat against any team, too. If you REALLY want to build a team around a specific threat, then you can overload its counters. Let's not forget that Amoongus also carries Spore--effectively neutering one of your team members. True--Aegislash does shit on the Skarm/Chans/Venu/Tran/Quag/filler stall teams, but what the hell doesn't these days? Good stall teams are a lot more innovative than the 2 most common defensive cores plus an Unaware user.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Oh no, Stall is in danger because of this 'mon.

C'mon guys, when did we start caring about a dying playstyle? The only time this argument came up was the last suspect test, however, BP chains simply just dealt with EVERY playstyle if given the chance. I feel like people are starting to fish for reasons now. Aegislash stops your full stall team? Then switch one of your 'mons with something to deal with it. Oh, it's not "Full stall"? Well too bad, that's the way adaptation works, it's not a 'mon that threatens EVERYTHING like mLuc, mKanga, and BP chains. It is a threat, don't get me wrong, but just because it is a threat doesn't mean it is broken.

Maybe, I'm on the side I am because I don't have a problem with it, nor do I use it, yes, it is an annoying 'mon to be face to face with, but as soon as you see what set it is, you should be able to work around it. It's not like he only has 2 things able to stop him, there are several 'mons that come in, take X attack and scare it out or take it out.