Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Slayerblade]

I don't think Azu deseveres S rank. The AV set beats so much shit but it's really easy to wear down. It's plays like Conk with an infinity better typing, but it gets wecked by status and doesn't resist SR. It's more like a really good glue pokemon than some super threat that you need multiples answer for like the other S ranks.

 

[koista12]

I don't think Azu deseveres S rank. The AV set beats so much shit but it's really easy to wear down. It's plays like Conk with an infinity better typing, but it gets wecked by status and doesn't resist SR. It's more like a really good glue pokemon than some super threat that you need multiples answer for like the other S ranks.

The AV set isnt the only set however, it can also run a banded set to kill everything except Megasaur.

Not to mention its other sets, that use its other two abilities to check even more things. It's a really versatile mon and beats so many things with all its sets.

 

[Ropeburn]

Can we please stop talking about pokemon's viability based upon the Aegislash ban? We still haven't received word on whether it's banned or not, so this theorymon won't get the thread anywhere.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree with Azumarill for S but i don't agree with Keldeo for S, even though Jukain made some very good points about it. The big difference with Keldeo and Azumarill is that Keldeo needs much more team support to deal with its counters, unlike Azumarill, which can be slapped on any team with zero support basically (especially Assault Vest). Yeah, you have to pack checks to Grass-types and physical walls when using AV Azumarill, but Grass-types are not hard to check and most teams have checks to them by default anyway, and walls are obviously very easy to take advantage of. On the other hand, Keldeo needs Pursuit support to really shine, otherwise Latios and Latias can greatly threaten your team, as well as a solid check to Azumarill. Yeah Scald may burn Azumarill, but it also may not, so you better have a plan B in case it doesn't. Also, Azumarill checks more stuff, but i guess Keldeo's way better Speed can somewhat make up for this.

And yeah, wait until the verdict about Aegislash is announced before talking about rank changes of Pokemon that are influenced by Aegislash's absence.

 

[Moose V]

I support Mega Garchomp for A-

Despite its lower speed (and sometimes physical power) than its normal form, Mega Garchomp is a nightmare for stall. Thanks to its good base 120 special attack, it has no problem dispatching Skarmory and Ferrothorn, whereas normal Garchomp tends to struggle a lot against these (especially if it lacks Fire Blast). It can get past physically defensive Rotom-W with Draco Meteor and cares less about WoW. Garchompite is also an item many people would not expect Garchomp to hold. When paired with Tyranitar or Hippo, Earthquake and Stone Edge can take out many threats Mega Garchomp would otherwise struggle against:

4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Sand: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur in Sand: 205-243 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir in Sand: 348-411 (125.1 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Sand: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Garchomp is a nightmare for stall If normal Garchomp wasn't bulky enough, Mega Garchomp takes this to the extreme: it has 108/115/95 defenses, which allow it to take a beating even when uninvested.

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 206-246 (57.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 260-308 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 308-366 (86 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 280-331 (78.2 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, Mega Garchomp, with its great defenses, huge power and an okayish speed (although not as good as Garchomp's), is in my opinion better than all the other Pokemon in B+ (maybe with the exception of Mega Medicham). Unlike Kabutops, Garchomp does not REQUIRE weather, it only appreciates it (kinda like Manaphy). Mega Garchomp deserves to move up.

I agree with this. I also have a couple things I want to say/add on in response to this as I have been using mega Garchomp a lot recently:

1) (At least for my purposes) a 176 atk / 252 spA / 80 spd naughty spread with the same moves you mentioned is potentially the most threatening. The extra attack is very useful against chansey and clefable who could otherwise could spam softboiled and stall out sand (and ultimately garchomp). In addition with sand up chomp (with 176 atk) can:
Get a guaranteed 2HKO on defensive mega venusaur
OHKO Sylveon 87.5% of the time (and not worry about taking a hyper voice)
Get a guaranteed 2 hit on quagsire w/ eq
OHKO Keldeo after rocks damage
93.8% OHKO on Mega Mawile at -1 (and not worry about taking a play rough)
56.3% chance to OHKO Azumarill w/ rocks ups (Azumarill is guaranteed to at least get taken out by sandstorm)

Without sand up:
97.7% chance to 2HKO 248/0/252 Mew (compared to 16% before)
Can OHKO every Tyranitar set (though admittedly sand will almost always be up here)
Guaranteed OHKO on Mega Aero
99.6% 2HKO on Mega Blastoise

I could go into greater detail about what it no longer outspeeds but it really shouldn't miss the 252 speed.

2) I have one quick nitpick with one of your calcs. Mega garchomp almost always runs a -spD nature so the clefable calc is slightly off.

3) I want to quickly address Mega Chomp's reliance on sand by saying that it still can operate very well outside of sand and should not be kept out of A- due to its need for "support."

 

[procrastinat]

I agree with this. I also have a couple things I want to say/add on in response to this as I have been using mega Garchomp a lot recently:

1) (At least for my purposes) a 176 atk / 252 spA / 80 spd naughty spread with the same moves you mentioned is potentially the most threatening. The extra attack is very useful against chansey and clefable who could otherwise could spam softboiled and stall out sand (and ultimately garchomp). In addition with sand up chomp (with 176 atk) can:
Get a guaranteed 2HKO on defensive mega venusaur
OHKO Sylveon 87.5% of the time (and not worry about taking a hyper voice)
Get a guaranteed 2 hit on quagsire w/ eq
OHKO Keldeo after rocks damage
93.8% OHKO on Mega Mawile at -1 (and not worry about taking a play rough)
56.3% chance to OHKO Azumarill w/ rocks ups (Azumarill is guaranteed to at least get taken out by sandstorm)

Without sand up:
97.7% chance to 2HKO 248/0/252 Mew (compared to 16% before)
Can OHKO every Tyranitar set (though admittedly sand will almost always be up here)
Guaranteed OHKO on Mega Aero
99.6% 2HKO on Mega Blastoise

I could go into greater detail about what it no longer outspeeds but it really shouldn't miss the 252 speed.

2) I have one quick nitpick with one of your calcs. Mega garchomp almost always runs a -spD nature so the clefable calc is slightly off.

3) I want to quickly address Mega Chomp's reliance on sand by saying that it still can operate very well outside of sand and should not be kept out of A- due to its need for "support."

Garchomp likes more speed ev's to outrun jolly breloom, a huge pain in the ass for sand teams. You're right in saying that garchomp doesn't need sand support to be good, but it does need sand support to be better than Kyurem-B, who is slightly faster (doesn't matter much when wallbreaking but still), can hold an item, (life orb for more power outside of sand, or leftovers for increased survivability, or Band for absurd strength.) and doesn't take up a mega slot ( I hate using this argument but tbh why would you use your mega slot for chomp on a Non-sand team when a non-mega does it's job at least as well?)

As of right now, I don't support Megachomp moving up, I do however believe it should be in the same rank as megacross, so if megacross moves up, I think M-chomp should follow it, due to the fact that in sand, Garchomp has the ability to break as many things as Heracross can, and outspeed some prominent threats without compromising too much of it's power.

 

[Moose V]

Garchomp likes more speed ev's to outrun jolly breloom, a huge pain in the ass for sand teams. You're right in saying that garchomp doesn't need sand support to be good, but it does need sand support to be better than Kyurem-B, who is slightly faster (doesn't matter much when wallbreaking but still), can hold an item, (life orb for more power outside of sand, or leftovers for increased survivability, or Band for absurd strength.) and doesn't take up a mega slot ( I hate using this argument but tbh why would you use your mega slot for chomp on a Non-sand team when a non-mega does it's job at least as well?)

As of right now, I don't support Megachomp moving up, I do however believe it should be in the same rank as megacross, so if megacross moves up, I think M-chomp should follow it, due to the fact that in sand, Garchomp has the ability to break as many things as Heracross can, and outspeed some prominent threats without compromising too much of it's power.

While you make good points I still think Mega Chomp should move up largely because of its surprise factor. While Kyurem-B can also have a few surprises (iron head, hp fire, etc.) most players wills play cautiously around it and are less likely to be caught off guard. Since KB has no set up moves (outside of substitute), opponents have more leisure with which they can scout for coverage moves. With chomp, on the other hand, players will fear an SD set and will be forced to immediately switch into something like skarmory or hippowdon, giving Mega chomp a surprise KO.

Also chomp has slightly better defensive typing and no stealth rock weakness, meaning it has more opportunities to come in for what it's worth.

 

[AM]

I'm for Azumarill moving to S. The points have been stated already for but yeah it's one of the easiest mons to slap onto teams, not mindlessly like some others but always a viable option unless you're playing full stall or something (which I might be wrong cause apparently people are giving sap sipper Azu a shot now legitimately). It fits on hyper offense, balanced, rain, sand offense (to counter act the common issues ttar, exca, and others have), basically some of the relevant archetypes. The one reason I would move it to S is the prominence of AV Azu which checks 1. Mons that it would normally have trouble in a 1v1 situation in regards to things like Thundy, Lando-I, Char Y, etc. 2. mons that your team may have trouble with as it can safely pivot into more attacks due to its bulk provided by AV. Yeah Jukain already mentioned the versatility on it and the various stuff you can choose to check or handle more easily so read his post.

Keldeo can stay in A+ for now. It has a whole bunch of usage, I see it all the time and rightfully so. The Specs set has no real good switch ins other than Amoongus and M-Venusaur. However the main issue with Keldeo is not so much its viability but mainly it's the fact that certain things are still in the tier right now and the meta has remained very consistent where Keldeo's viability hasn't been hindered, neither has it improved for it to warrant the move up right now.

So imo Azumarill for S, Keldeo to remain A+

 

[Jacks0n]

I actually think Keldeo should move to S as well as Azumarill.

Here is the definition of an S rank.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Keldeo - Keldeo fits the criteria for an S rank Pokemon. 'These Pokemon are amazing in the OU meta game.' Keldeo can pressure offence, balanced and stall, being the most viable specs user in the tier it literally does not have a very good counter. Yes amoong and venu are good switch ins, but if Keldeo gets a burn and either has a little prior damage with rocks up it can 2ohko them with HP flying. It does have switch ins like the latis as well, though with burns and rocks and the fact they take like 40% from secret sword means they get worn down real quick. A free switch in against offence pretty much guarantees a kill, as well as it checking Pokemon such as lando I, bisharp and heatran. 'These Pokemon can do a variety of roles effectively, or just one extremely well.' Keldeo has an amazing specs set, and it does it extremely well, Being able to Ko or 2ohko a vast majority of the meta. It can also run a sub cm set very well, as well as a LO cm set very well. Keldeo is low risk, and high reward, with insane power and good speed, it does have flaws, but they are outweighed by its substantial strengths.

Everyone has already said why azum should be S.

 

[procrastinat]

While you make good points I still think Mega Chomp should move up largely because of its surprise factor. While Kyurem-B can also have a few surprises (iron head, hp fire, etc.) most players wills play cautiously around it and are less likely to be caught off guard. Since KB has no set up moves (outside of substitute), opponents have more leisure with which they can scout for coverage moves. With chomp, on the other hand, players will fear an SD set and will be forced to immediately switch into something like skarmory or hippowdon, giving Mega chomp a surprise KO.

Also chomp has slightly better defensive typing and no stealth rock weakness, meaning it has more opportunities to come in for what it's worth.

Using swords dance chomp means giving one of your valuable coverage moves, you're either getting rid of draco meteor or fire blast, and to be frank normal chomp does SD better. If your opponent knows your chomp is your mega, skarmory will not be their first answer because the primary Megachomp set listed on the analysis has all of it's ev's dumped into special attack and megachomp always should run fire blast.

Also your last sentence is not doing chomp justice, it has a FAR better defensive typing than kyurem-b and a superior movepool as well. The biggest problem for megachomp IMO is opportunity cost, why take up my mega slot when something else does the job about as well? The only way chomp can overcome that opportunity cost is if it is used on a sand team, if megachomp is used on a well-built sand team, there is nothing that does it's job better. It can literally 2HKO the tier if sand is up.

Don't think I don't want to Chomp to move up because I don't think it is a good pokemon, I've used Mega-Garchomp quite a bit and won a couple of scripted tournaments because of megachomp. I don't think it should move up because pokemon in higher ranks are generally better choices (kyurem-b) and because I think chomp is an equal to some other pokemon in B+ in terms of risk vs. reward. I think of it as comparable to kabutops, while kabutops NEEDS weather to be viable at all, Megachomp NEEDS the weather to reach it's maximum potential and outperform other choices. It is also comparable to Megacross, who provides more physical firepower and does not need the weather, at the cost of having lower speed and bulk, and a huge weakness to flying, which makes it less effective against offense than megachomp (note that I am not saying heracross is useless against offense) who still performs admirably even when his bulk is uninvested.

I'm also not going to make the mistake of saying that keeping sand up is "significant support" because hippowdon and tyranitar are A and A+ respectively. I will say that sand is a burden on the rest of your team, because many of your teammates won't appreciate the chip damage canceling their leftovers/putting them into KO range of certain attacks, another reason that other wallbreakers are generally preferred.

To conclude, either Keep Mega-Garchomp in B+ OR Move it and Mega-Heracross to A-.

 

[Karxrida]

The thing that holds back Keldeo from S imo is how dependent it is on Specs. Yeah you could probably run CM but I've found more often than not that nuking the shit out of things is better than trying to setup and sweep. Too much stuff can force you out, you still can't do jack to the Latis (Specs can at least run Icy Wind to beat them but its not really worth it), and you still lose to Thundy, one of your biggest checks (iirc LO T-Bolt will still OHKO you through 1 CM boost).

 

[Ropeburn]

Keldeo is an amazing pokemon, but the pokemon in the S rank fulfill multiple roles effectively. Compared to stuff like Landorus, Charizard-X and Aegislash, Keldeo is extremely one-dimensional compared to those pokemon. It's either choiced, or a CM set. It's extremely predictable and easy to check.

Anyways, I'm bring this up again: Mega Heracross to A-. That thing is insanely powerful, and manhandles Balance and Stall.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

I take back my last post. I read the nominations for Azumaril the S-rank, and I feel that it's more that mons like Azumarill are better than most of the A+ mons than that some mons should drop from A+ rank. Azumarill is a great pivot and tank and it's very hard to find a team where it wouldn't fit on. It's typing is appealing defensively and allows it to check big threats like Keldeo.

I also find that Keldeo is a lot more viable than a lot of the A+ rank mons. It's has a great Special Attack stat and scald which essentially gives it no safe switch ins because non-fire types will get burned and take quite a lot of damage (other than Venusaur, but it still hate burns) and fire-type will straight up die. Do note that relying on burn chances isn't a great idea, but there are still other appealing aspects of Keldeo. For example, other than Landorus, Keldeo is probably the special attacker that has the easiest time getting past Chansey, which walls pretty much every special mon in the tier. It may seem predictable like Mega Pinsir, but it can get past many of the threats that wall its stabs by just opting for a certain coverage move. It also has some other sets other than Specs that adds a bit to its mediocre versatility, though I'm not familiar with them.

I also don't see a lot of people talking about it's great defensive typing. Sure it has five weaknesses, but it also has seven resistances which makes it similar to Azumarill as a great glue mon because it check things like Tyranitar, Bisharp, MegaScizor.

I find it hard for me not to use these two on teams because they cover a lot holes in them and also apply massive offensive pressure on the opponent which why I think they deserve S-rank.

 

[Deaux]

I would like to share my insights on Azumarill.

Not too long ago (okay, yesterday), I ran a SubPunch + waterfall and aqua jet on Azu, with an Espeon with Light Screen/Reflect/Work Up/Baton Pass. So firstly I set the screens, do 1 Work Up, then passed to Azu. Then I subbed with Azu and spammed Focus Punch. Turn after turn, my opponent switches between each of his Pokemon which were resistant to the fighting type yet were either built bulky (spatk/atk and hp) or just plain tanky-built sweeper (speed and spatk/atk), and Focus Punch dealt >50% damage. At first I was like, wow this mon can wreck, but then my surprise lessened when I realized the sheer might of Azu's ability. Though this set gets walled by Physically Defensive Unaware Quagsire and Clefable, you can cover up these checks with the right mon in your party.

Anyway, I think Azumarill has S-rank potential. By my observation, the only mons who can suppress and defeat Azu with low risk are Venusaur, Mawile, Breloom and physically defensive unaware mons (as mentioned above), I would mention Pinsir, but without taking significant damage from some sets, Pinsir won't be able to k.o. Azu. Some specific Pokemon can deal with the checks and counters mentioned just recently, notably in my opinion, Mega Charizard Y.

Once set up with Belly Drum, it is a monstrous force to be reckoned with. A simple Aqua Jet will destroy the opposition. Waterfall and Play Rough will crush walls. Knock Off would suppress typical physically defensive tanks which commonly wall Azu, and finally Superpower will just wreck tanky Steel, normal or other types which are otherwise weak to Fighting/resistant to Waterfall. Azu can also excellently run an AV set with it's decent bulk and natural devastating power, or simply be a bulky beast with Choice Band.

To briefly discuss Azu's bulk, she only has 3 weaknesses which other mon in your party can easily be immune/resistant to it, she only takes x1 damage to steel moves, and finally, a 100/80/80 bulk is about the same bulk as of clefable and quagsire, making her bulk already great amongst Pokemon which are built the same as her.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Only thing I have against Azumarill is I find it really hard to switch in.

Aegislash

Charizard (Mega-X) Fears wisp also loses to eq sets, but still pretty good.

Landorus Gets destroyed by earth power

Mawile (Mega) play rough

Thundurus t-bolt

Bisharp sort of good switch in opportunity

Clefable Good chance to switch in

Excadrill 2hko by eq

Garchomp 2hko by eq

Greninja Great chance

Gyarados (Mega) great chance

Keldeo pretty good, but screwed by scald 30% of the time

Pinsir (Mega) is destroyed
Can tanks hits, but can't do much back
Talonflame 2hko by brave bird
Tyranitar good switch in chance

Tyranitar (Mega) meh as it has high chance to be ohko'd by +1 stone edge.

Venusaur (Mega) nope

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y) solar beam

Dragonite decent chance, but hates banned hits.

Ferrothorn nope

Gengar sludgewave
Gliscor decent chance, but can be toxic stalled or lose item.

Heatran risks burn but still good

Hippowdon great chance

Landorus-T 2hko by eq.

Mandibuzz great switch in

Latias can switch in on some moves

Latios can switch in on some

Rotom-W nope

Terrakion can switch in on closecombat
Breloom no
Chansey good switch in
Diggersby no
Gardevoir (Mega) no
Gyarados can switch in, but can do much back
Kyurem-B switches in on some moves

Mamoswine eq hurts badly

Manaphy is ohko'd at +3

Skarmory can't do much back

 

[Nog]

o_k Azumarill. Basically it's stupid hard to prepare for if you run offense and can be hard to play around if you are running stall. It's typing is one of the best defensive typings in the game, right along Steel / Fairy and Steel / Ghost. It's coverage smashes almost anything in the tier and it has the option to just pick it's counters based on its move set. It's bulk is respectable for a defensive Pokemon and on an a poke with such an offensive prowess as Azumarill, it's just godly.

Choice Band is solid if you have another physical wall breaker on the team AND a physical set up sweeper. It punches holes into any team archetype, but needs far more support than the other two sets. The Assault Vest set is cool and helps a lot against Keldeo / Greninja / Thundurus. AV allows Azumarill to pick any move, hit hard af and tank much more specially based damage.

The Belly Drum set is just gg if you're against offense and SR are up (so you break sashes). The fact that Azumarill does as much damage as it does without even setting up is great, but BD's greatest asset is that it can provide a win condition or a secondary wall breaker at any time in the game. Generally speaking you get a couple of opportunities to set up in a single match, but if this is your primary win con you need to kill all its checks / counters off first. The last good set (using that term leniently with this set) is the Sap Sipper defensive set with Scald and the sort. It's quite unconventional at this point but provides a counter to pokes like Breloom and Mega Charizard Y. Only seen on stall and usually only used by competent battlers.

All in all a very low risk, hella high reward mon that requires little to no team support and limited effort. The only skill it takes to use Azumarill correctly (assuming you use a good move set) is when to click Belly Drum, but that's more of a battling question that a question directly related to Azumarill. Some counters or hard checks include, but are not limited to Skarmory, Rotom-Wash, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Ferrothorn (if no Superpower) and Zapdos. Fast Electric types can revenge kill it and Toxicroak can too o.o To the guy above me your list is kinda flawed, but I don't feel like making an entirely separate post to show you where you messed up.

 

[Gloating]

I really don't think Azumarill is S-rank material. Yes it's a great mon and it's why it's at home at A+ but it falls just a tiny bit short to the other S-ranks in my opinion. Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Slowbro are all good checks/counters. It's very easy to revenge kill too because of it's low speed it can only hit faster threats with Aqua Jet. It also doesn't like status at all whether it's Thunder Wave (basically turns all your moves into 25% chance of missing) Toxic or Burn. People also need to keep in mind that A+ is a great rank to be in and it's about as good as the S-rank. Idk it just seems everyone wants to push things into S-rank like Keldeo for example who's fine at A+ imo.

 

[Moose V]

Only thing I have against Azumarill is I find it really hard to switch in.

Aegislash

Charizard (Mega-X) Fears wisp also loses to eq sets, but still pretty good.

Landorus Gets destroyed by earth power

Mawile (Mega) play rough

Thundurus t-bolt

Bisharp sort of good switch in opportunity

Clefable Good chance to switch in

Excadrill 2hko by eq

Garchomp 2hko by eq

Greninja Great chance

Gyarados (Mega) great chance

Keldeo pretty good, but screwed by scald 30% of the time

Pinsir (Mega) is destroyed
Can tanks hits, but can't do much back
Talonflame 2hko by brave bird
Tyranitar good switch in chance

Tyranitar (Mega) meh as it has high chance to be ohko'd by +1 stone edge.

Venusaur (Mega) nope

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y) solar beam

Dragonite decent chance, but hates banned hits.

Ferrothorn nope

Gengar sludgewave
Gliscor decent chance, but can be toxic stalled or lose item.

Heatran risks burn but still good

Hippowdon great chance

Landorus-T 2hko by eq.

Mandibuzz great switch in

Latias can switch in on some moves

Latios can switch in on some

Rotom-W nope

Terrakion can switch in on closecombat
Breloom no
Chansey good switch in
Diggersby no
Gardevoir (Mega) no
Gyarados can switch in, but can do much back
Kyurem-B switches in on some moves

Mamoswine eq hurts badly

Manaphy is ohko'd at +3

Skarmory can't do much back

I get what you're saying here, but every offensive poke will have a list like this. Azumarill can actually switch in on so much more than other A+ ranked offensive pokes such as talonflame, bisharp and greninja due to its excellent typing and decent bulk. You can't expect an offensively-based poke like Azumarill to counter everything.

 

[Gloating]

I get what you're saying here, but every offensive poke will have a list like this. Azumarill can actually switch in on so much more than other A+ ranked offensive pokes such as talonflame, bisharp and greninja due to its excellent typing and decent bulk. You can't expect an offensively-based poke like Azumarill to counter everything.

What does switching in even have to do with anything? Chansey can come in on a lot so what? and btw Talonflame is not really supposed to come in on anything, it's mostly used as a revenge killer and it also has many sets which are totally different to Azumarill. You're comparing oranges to apples here. Same with Greninja, they just do different things you can't really say one is better than the other.

 

[Moose V]

What does switching in even have to do with anything? Chansey can come in on a lot so what? and btw Talonflame is not really supposed to come in on anything, it's mostly used as a revenge killer and it also has many sets which are totally different to Azumarill. You're comparing oranges to apples here. Same with Greninja, they just do different things you can't really say one is better than the other.

You're making the point I'm trying to make. A restraint on switching in doesn't completely hinder offensive pokes. I'm not trying to compare these pokes, (as, like you said, they are too different) I'm just trying to prove a point.

 

[AM]

So yeah Lil Yoshi a lot of those bad switchs in you mentioned are slowed down by the AV set and also let's take into consideration that some of these cases are very match up reliant so here's my thoughts of what it can actually switch into

S rank
Aegislash

Response

Char X is always shaky cause of the wisp variants. Then again if that's what you got for it then it's still a solid switch in. Band puts a dent in it anyways. Lando-I gets slowed down by AV sets especially those that are running special defense investment. Also this is assuming it's using Earth Power that turn and not something like Focus Blast. M-Mawile is well...M-Mawile, enough said. Thundurus is dependant on match up cause this is assuming that tbolt is actually the safest option in that situation. Then again unless you're positive it's something like hp ice or focusblast/superpower and the Azu is AV and very healthy idk how this would be a bright idea anyways. Aegi is Aegislash. So scoping out the set only does so much and in most cases King's Shield can just screw you over. Azu can switch in a bit more consistently though..

A+ Rank

Response

Bisharp is alright but it needs bulk to consistently take on Iron Heads but it can come in on Dark moves freely and proceed to KO. Clefable is a safe switch in. Excadrill is matchup reliant again and based totally on circumstances. For all we know Azu can be at full and Exca will be on the verge of being KO'd due to priority. Similar case with Garchomp. 50/50 with the general moveset it runs and in most cases Garchomp isn't winning unless Azu is already struggling from prior damage. Greninja is solid unless it's a non AV Azu and you get screwed over by those niche HP grasses and grass knot lol but yeah I can agree with you there. Azu is a solid switch in to M-Gyara but now we're talking about other circumstances that could be taking place. Azu can't consistently switch into SR and EQs all the time. People who use M-Gyara mindlessly might be an easy switch in but other than that it's another match up thing. Can switch into Keldeo and yeah burns suck when that 30% chance feels like a 100%, but last time I checked Keldeo doesn't want to be taking Play Roughs regardless. M-Pinsir is a problem but it's a problem for most. I can agree with M-Scizor but sort of matchup reliant again cause BD has a chance to take it out based on circumstances. Azu vs Talonflame is a shaky matchup in terms of switch ins. Most cases Talon wins but that's not always a guarantee depending on which Tflame set is being used. Wins against Ttar and yeah Azu doesn't like taking Stone Edges from M-Ttar especially after a boost but if Azu is healthy it's not really having issues either and is a perfect trade off for having mttar out completely for Azu being damaged. Can't switch into M-Venu well unless AV and even then not so good.

A Rank and A- Rank

Response

Only switches into Char Y on very niche situations like Focus Blast so meh not so much there. Still can win depending on the situation Char Y is in. Dragonite I can agree with. Azu actually switches pretty well into Ferro unless it's Power Whip and in most cases that's not an issue cause they're not going to assume that something that is primarily walled by Ferro will come in willingly. Ferro hates Band and BD Superpower sets anyways. You're missing the fact that this has to be a LO attacking Gengar. Not all Gengars are the LO variants and Azu, especially AV doesn't have too much problems with this. Gliscor can toxic stall it....if it actually uses Toxic on the switch in. Other wise Gliscor is going to be in trouble. Azu still hates burns from Lava Plumes from Heatran but it's a similar situation to Keldeo that even when burned, Heatran doesn't want to be taking water hits from Azu. It's not like Heatran is going to be doing much back unless it's like a Specs set. Hippo loses to Azu in most cases, nothing else to say. Lando-T is another matchup based scenario. Assuming that EQ is the best option and assuming that Lando-T actually can pull off the 2ohko, Azu is more than likely winning this match up. AV Azu handles both Lati twins and can switch in on most moves due to the usual sets they run. Yeah LO Tbolt sucks but that's not the be all end all of Azu with AV. Mandi doesn't want to be facing Azumarill at all, so agreed there. Azu is a bad switch into Rotom-W but it does have utility on switching into Hydro Pumps for the teams sake. Terrakion needs to be using Stone Edge on the switch in for the most part to actually handle Azu. Otherwise if Azu switches in safely it's gg for Terrakion. Breloom kind of screws you over so no argument there. Chansey gets wrecked. Can't really switch into Diggersby but neither would Diggersby going to Azu anyways. M-Gard is hard to switch in for a lot of things. The only benefit is the AV set which can have a small chance against it. Regular Gyarados only works if it has a chance to hide behind a subsitute, otherwise Gyarados kind of gets screwed over. Yeah it switches into some things by Kyurem-B but last time I checked I don't want my Azus to be taking Fusion Bolts to the face so this is generally never a good switch in either. Mamo has to hit Azu on the switch in with EQ or Freeze Dry which is basically 50/50 in most cases, otherwise Mamo can be screwed. Manaphy usually beats Azu unless it's like Sap Sipper which then again is just really trolly lol. Skarmory doesn't want to be taking on BD Azu and only the Counter variant actually beats it one on one outside of BD.

Yeah also someone already mentioned this, but not switching in safely is a general trait of some of the S rank mons. In most cases you're not suppose to be switching into stuff that you wouldn't consistently beat anyways but there are always circumstances that can change these arguments. I might've missed some stuff but yeah you get the point.

 

[Durant]

Agreeing with Azumarill for S rank. Azumarill is a really good Pokemon right now. It is easy as fuck to use and can basically be thrown on any team since all the support it really needs is something for Amoongus and Mega Venusaur which most teams have. Thanks to it's Huge Power ( Pun intended ) it's counters are only limited to Amoongus, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur who are getting a little less common these days at least for me they are. Azumarill is also quite versatile in what it can run with Choice Band, Assault Vest and Belly Drum sets which are all good in there own right. Choice Band is an absolute nuke and allows it to kill stuff extremely easy. Assault Vest let's it act as a good bulky Pokemon that checks the likes of Greninja for offensive teams which is great to have. Lastly Belly Drum sets can clean late game pretty easy with prioirity Aqua Jet. Azumarill also has one of the best typings in the game which allows it to take on some Pokemon like Bisharp, thanks to it's good bulk it can also make use of that typing. Definetly supporting Azumarill for S rank.

Keldeo I am not as sure about as Azumarill though. Keldeo can also be rather easy to throw onto a team as it again only needs Amoongus, Mega Venusaur and the lati twins gone to sweep or clean. Most teams have answers to Amoongus and Mega Venusaur in general so this isn't much of a problem. Both Latios and Latias are prone to being Pursuit trapped so those are also managable with a Pokemon like Bisharp or Pursuit Aegislash on your team. Heck even then Amoongus and Mega Venusaur still need to be healthy to avoid the 2 hit KO from Hidden Power Flying whicle Latios and Latias take quite a bit from Icy Wind. Like Azumarill Keldeo also has some versatility, not as much as Azumarill but still pretty varied. Choice Specs is the main set and with it Keldeo is a really fucking nuke just like Azumarill. Choice Scarf can be a decent revenge killer but personally I find it somewhat lacking in power, still good though if your team needs it. Lastly Keldeo also has Calm Mind sets which are decent but I haven't seen much of them in XY. Since Choice Specs is used most of the time it's not as versatile but the other sets still exist. I am not as sure on Keldeo to S as Azumarill but I can definetly see it going either way. Leaning more towards S though so Keldeo for S rank.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Since Aegislash is banned, I think we should discuss Hawlucha, since his main Counter is gone. I think a simple raise from C- to C Neutral would suffice for the moment.

 

[Colonial]

Since Aegislash is banned, I think we should discuss Hawlucha, since his main Counter is gone. I think a simple raise from C- to C Neutral would suffice for the moment.

But what about all the other crap that keeps Hawlucha from being viable? Like, being outclassed as a sweeper. Or, as an add on, how it has little real niche. Sure, super fast sweeper with Flying/Fighting coverage is cool, but Mega Pinsir does that too, now. Hawlucha doesn't hit that hard and can't run an item to alleviate that. Running adamant is neat, but that doesn't do enough to distinguish it from the heavy hitters of OU.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Since Aegislash is banned, I think we should discuss Hawlucha, since his main Counter is gone. I think a simple raise from C- to C Neutral would suffice for the moment.

Hawlucha still has problems with Bird Spam, and I think if anything Bird Spam will become more of a trouble for Hawlucha, neutralizing anything it gained from Aegislash's ban. But we'll see.