Other Stall

[Sun King]

a lot of people when building stall for the first time often miss covering some or many of the big stallbreaking/wallbreaking threats. i made a list of answers to some normal threats to stall to aid in teambuilding so you can maximize your ability to handle most or all of these threats. listed like everything you could potentially use so you know all the options you have to cover things, if something fits/you need its role you can certainly use it.

mega heracross

- toxic + stone edge OR hp flying defensive landorus-t. landorus-t walls mega heracross but normally can't touch it, toxic fixes that. stone edge is important to break subs.

- acrobatics physically defensive gliscor. easily tanks any hit while 2hkoing handily. better than toxic because it doesnt lose to sub and toxic doesnt wear it down fast enough for gliscor to wall.

- phys def clefable (well for the most part)

- doublade

- defensive cofagrigus

- granbull

mega medicham

- slowbro barring tpunch which is rare

- phys def mew (espec carrying night shade which can be kinda cool to beat tran bc you don't have any worries at all about subs)

- cresselia

- sableye

- doublade

- defensive cofagrigus

- granbull

- victini with 248 hp / 68 def investment

mega gardevoir

- jirachi

- mega scizor

- bronzong

- doublade

- victini

terrakion

- slowbro

- cresselia

- phys def celebi

- doublade

- def hippowdon

- full def mega scizor (as long as you can keep rocks off vs lo variants it's safe, with rocks it can be a toss-up with roost vs bpunch at times)

- chesnaught

- def mega venu (kinda)

- alomomola (kinda)

- phys def gliscor

- defensive landorus-t + wish support

- granbull

mg cm clefable

- jirachi (no it doesn't care about flamethrower)

- taunt heatran

- taunt talonflame

- taunt spdef gliscor

- acid spray tentacruel

- mg cm stored power clefable beats most because most don't run stored power, unaware cm destroys tho that's kinda meh :/

- victini

- cm slowbro

mew

- taunt talonflame

- knock off gliscor OR gliscor with lots of speed + taunt & toxic

- mega charizard x

- victini (at least to an alright extent)

- heatran with lava plume & ep so you can burn it and try to stall some pps of knock off/cripple it, alternatively ridiculous amounts of speed eg creeping 1 point above outspeeding jolly mega hera which isn't uncommon on mew in this day and age

taunt gliscor

aka fuck this thing

- creeping with your own taunt gliscor

- off mega venusaur

- ice beam mew/slowbro (they help ! :])

- pp stalling (yes this actually works, though not so much if they have knock off :z) -- ferro helps a lot with this

- starmie

kyurem-b

- mixed def (252 hp / 160 def / 96 spdef calm) clefable

- kinda chansey

- willo talonflame is a good check

- ferro with some good spdef investment

- mega scizor

- cresselia (use moonblast pls ;~;)

- spdef jirachi

- spdef bronzong

taunt wisp talonflame

this thing is annoying as fuck

- ancient power heatran (this is p suboptimal tho)

- electrics (rotom sorta, zapdos)

- suicune

- slowbro

- mega aerodactyl (check)

pinsir mag

p much use non-skarm pinsir answers, so like

- mega aerodactyl

- rhyperior

- zapdos

- doublade

- rotom

- rock move hippowdon

crocune

- off mega venusaur with 60 evs in speed

- psong celebi

- clear smog amoonguss

- mg cm stored power clefable

- mew

- cm slowbro

- mirror coat alomomola if you're desperate

knock off landorus

- spdef gliscor

- spdef dragonite

- av tornadus-t

- spdef gyarados

- spdef zapdos

- celebi

- blissey (this is literally the only reason ever to use blissey over chansey)

gengar

taunt wisp ones and even subsplit with life orb can be annoying for stall when they don't have the means to tank the hits well (espec lo sball has awesome coverage and is kinda strong)

- spdef gliscor with knock off

- spdef talonflame

- mega charizard x

- mixed def (252 hp / 160 def / 96 spdef calm) clefable with flamethrower

sub mega gyarados

- mega venusaur

- amoonguss

- celebi

- chesnaught

- power whip ferrothorn (you have to use it over gyro or whatever)

- phys def zapdos

another common problem: redundancies in teambuilding. you shouldn't be overlapping pokemon with similar defensive roles/typing. like, using clefable + chansey. if you can avoid redundancies in threat coverage, you will be able to get more out of your mons, cover more threats, and fit more onto your team. also please please please don't use heal bell + gliscor people do that sometimes and it's really stupid for obvious reasons.

the last thing is that every stall team should be able to put some sort of pressure on the opponent, mons that directly threaten/break down the opponent. this can include things like taunt talonflame/aero/gliscor/mew, offensive mega venusaur > defensive, cm clefable/suicune, spikes...your team needs to be able to put pressure on and pose a threat to the opposing team so you actually have room to outplay them and can try to play around your issues/not have to have all of your walls and stuff last forever for shorter games because of this pressure you can put on the opposing team.

just some general tips/resources for helping to build stall because people often make teams and don't really know what they're doing so their teams end up weak to some threats you wouldn't think about right off the bat and don't make the most efficient use of their teamslots to maximize threat coverage.

Nice work Jukain . I would add Sylveon to the list for Kyub counters and Sub Gyarados. Sylveon is a great compression cleric because it covers a unique array of threats and brings some attacking power to the team.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

honestly tho, there is no way to adequately cover all those threats (let alone any other threat) your going to have to pick and chose which threats to cover. Also a lot of these mons can be worn down pretty easily. Especially when a lot of the answers don't have reliable recovery.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

honestly tho, there is no way to adequately cover all those threats (let alone any other threat) your going to have to pick and chose which threats to cover. Also a lot of these mons can be worn down pretty easily. Especially when a lot of the answers don't have reliable recovery.

part of the reason you need the ability to exert your own pressure, yaknow keep those threats at bay

 

[Seth Vilo]

honestly tho, there is no way to adequately cover all those threats (let alone any other threat) your going to have to pick and chose which threats to cover. Also a lot of these mons can be worn down pretty easily. Especially when a lot of the answers don't have reliable recovery.

In a similar vein, though, there is no way for every offensive team to be able to break through all stall teams. Thanks in part to some power creep, as well as the fact that there are 721 freaking creatures to prepare for (EDIT: not counting form(e)s or MEvos, and once Volcanion and Hoopa are released, anyway), there will always be some selection of 6 that your selection of 6 - whatever team style it is - will not be able to break through. Welcome to Generation 6.

Also, Jukain , you are a mighty and powerful vizier of stall. That list is awesome as a "get started" point to make sure you have most threats covered. To others, of course there are threats there that can be covered by stall teams other ways, so don't think that only those listed things are possible (since I foresee that argument arising).

Also, because I'm extremely biased, I'm going to say that Doublade is freaking awesome, but it's like Fight Club. Don't talk about it, guys, or people will start preparing for it.

EDIT: I need to freaking proof read my crap before I hit post. That and drink MUCH more coffee.

 

[Zebstrika]

Great post Jukain, a few things I would add.

Terrakion

• Suicune can take variants without SD though it still gets a Scald off against SD which is 60-70% damage (possible ohko after close combat) plus a burn chance.
• PDef Amoonguss

Clefable

• Clear Smog Amoonguss. Though it's shaky because it can't kill it (unless Sludge Bomb + Clear smog), just clear boosts or Spore it.
• Mega Aggron
• Suicune if you're really desperate. Like really desperate. Like, about 2/3 of the time, Suicune will win the CM war, and probably the game, while the other 1/3 Clefable will win and probably win the game. Suicune has the higher chance because Clefable runs out of PP first if neither one crits.

Landorus

• Cresselia
• Mega Aerodactyl. Somewhat, because it has trouble Roosting on it.
• Charizard Y

Gengar

• Charizard Y

 

[Jukain]

clear smog amoon, mega aggron, and a 2/3 answer aren't letting you beat cm clefable.

suicune can check rak i guess but it can't switch in repeatedly.

i didn't list zard y because i don't think it's viable with mawile gone.

will edit others in, thnx

 

[Tesung]

jukain taunt mega dactyl beats every single one of those threats 1v1 yum
o besides the water ones but those are shitty stall breakers anyways

 

[alexwolf]

Jukain, here are some additions to your list:

Taunt Gliscor answers:

HP Ice physically defensive Amoonguss
Ice Fang Gliscor (semi-viable)

Kyu-B answers:

I think you should specify which set you are talking about, because Chansey walls any set without LO Outrage. Also, Talonflame is a shit check because it can't switch into Fusion Bolt and can't safely Roost due to the threat of Earth Power.

Suicune answers:

I would remove Clear Smog Amoonguss, Suicune can easily outstall it and come out with +6 / +6. It's just a way to drain PPs from Suicune, which in tandem with another way to drain PPs could work, such as Chansey, which isn't 2HKOed even by +6 Scald.

Gengar answers:

Flamethrower Fable is a really shaky check to TauntGar, i would only mention it as a counter to SubSplit sets without Sludge Wave, and even then Shadow Ball fucks up big time, all the while Fable can't really threaten Gengar much back, so i don't think you should mention it at all.

SpD Heatran checks TauntWoW Gengar pretty well.

 

[Jukain]

chansey is actually 2hkoed by lo max attack dclaw after rocks, and loses to lo outrage. it does beat specially-based sub and specially-based lo without outrage, though, so it seems worth mentioning.

clef definitely beats subwisp

148 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

can set up on subsplit with ease and beat it

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so i don't see how ft clef can't at least check gengar

others are right, editing in

 

[alexwolf]

I said that it's a shaky check at best because LO Gengar can just get in multiple times until it get the SpD drop, at which point it can just 2HKO Fable with Shadow Ball and heal with Pain Split whenever necessary. As for Taunt Gar, it can also harass Clefable quite easily, especially seeing as how Flamethrower doesn't do much back to Clefable anyway, so after 1-2 times Gengar will be able to get past Fable assuming the Gar player didn't play bad and let Fable heal against other Pokemon. It goes like this: Gar uses SBall as Fable comes in, Gar uses Taunt as Fable uses Flame, Gar switches out as Fable does whatever, rinse and repeat.

 

[Sun King]

I personally think that Stallbreaker Gengar is really underwhelming; in my opinion, it's one of those things that works better on paper than in practice. Maybe it's because I run Heatran a lot, but pretty much anything with a semblance of uninvested power can force it out. Pain Split is a double-edged sword--it definitely hurts things that have a high base HP, but it isn't always reliable. Gengar's paper-thin defenses in addition to its lack of reliable recovery ultimately make it a lot less threatening as a game wears on. Through SR damage, a possible burn, and just switching in to attacks, Gengar doesn't go the distance.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

one pokemon i would like to bring up is:


sheep. phys def sheep can beat many top threats:
mega pinsir(no longer runs EQ)
keldeo(phys def lets it eat sacred sword, resists other moves)
thundurus(its a fucking meaty tank, it eats thundy for breakfast, focus blast does 47~ max)
talonflame(eats it up)
zard y(fire blast does 44~ max)
bisharp(can't touch it)
and it can check a lot more. the meaty 165 satk means it provides some nice n powerful offensive presence. here is the set i'm using:

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

its basically a slow pivot with nice offensive presence+resttalk. the fact it can provide free switches means that some otherwise impossible match ups now become possible(a good example would be sableye v mew, amphy gets a free switch to sableye, and sableye has priority over mew)

also, can i tell you how hard it is to build mega amphy semistall? i spent a legit 2 hours trying to build it.

also, one thing i noticed for mega amphy stall is that togekiss is actually somewhat viable on it. you typically have a lot of rest talk users(suicune, doublade, etc) and togekiss can defog+heal bell. togekiss, however, is trash, and should only be considered as a last resort.

 

[StairFall]

one pokemon i would like to bring up is:


sheep. phys def sheep can beat many top threats:
mega pinsir(no longer runs EQ)
keldeo(phys def lets it eat sacred sword, resists other moves)
thundurus(its a fucking meaty tank, it eats thundy for breakfast, focus blast does 47~ max)
talonflame(eats it up)
zard y(fire blast does 44~ max)
bisharp(can't touch it)
and it can check a lot more. the meaty 165 satk means it provides some nice n powerful offensive presence. here is the set i'm using:

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

its basically a slow pivot with nice offensive presence+resttalk. the fact it can provide free switches means that some otherwise impossible match ups now become possible(a good example would be sableye v mew, amphy gets a free switch to sableye, and sableye has priority over mew)

also, can i tell you how hard it is to build mega amphy semistall? i spent a legit 2 hours trying to build it.

It looks like a neat idea, but volt switch + resttalk seems like a risky idea. I suppose it's not bad since Ampharos will almost always be going last, but you may have to double up on resists or checks. If you volt switch when you'd rather stay in you're going to have to have to switch back into Ampharos and take more hazard damage, as well as the other pokemon you've switched into also taking hazard damage. Say Ampharos is your only thundurus counter. He does some damage to you, and then you volt switch instead of D pulsing, you gotta go into another pokemon, and then switch back into Ampharos. D pulse + rest is also risky because of fairies too.

I may simply be over reacting, and I'd have to see it in action to see how often sleep talk is actually used, but other than that it's an interesting idea. He looks like he's got just enough power to threaten most offensive pokemon uninvested.

 

[AM]

It looks like a neat idea, but volt switch + resttalk seems like a risky idea. I suppose it's not bad since Ampharos will almost always be going last, but you may have to double up on resists or checks. If you volt switch when you'd rather stay in you're going to have to have to switch back into Ampharos and take more hazard damage, as well as the other pokemon you've switched into also taking hazard damage. Say Ampharos is your only thundurus counter. He does some damage to you, and then you volt switch instead of D pulsing, you gotta go into another pokemon, and then switch back into Ampharos. D pulse + rest is also risky because of fairies too.

I may simply be over reacting, and I'd have to see it in action to see how often sleep talk is actually used, but other than that it's an interesting idea. He looks like he's got just enough power to threaten most offensive pokemon uninvested.

It's an over reaction honestly, and I actually use M-Ampharos on a stall team as well. It takes some minor building around but for the most part a lot of things synergies with it well and you can cater its spread to handle different things. For the most part though physically defensive is better to handle bird spam more efficiently unless you need M-Amphy to be a thundurus check, which would run special defense.

Also Smog Frog I would speed creep a bit to outrun clefable/base 60s. It's annoying when they go first or set up a calm mind =/. 44 speed is all you need and you're really not losing out on much when your team is built properly.

Edit: Before Mega, forgot. lol

 

[kirant]

one pokemon i would like to bring up is:


sheep. phys def sheep can beat many top threats:
mega pinsir(no longer runs EQ)
keldeo(phys def lets it eat sacred sword, resists other moves)
thundurus(its a fucking meaty tank, it eats thundy for breakfast, focus blast does 47~ max)
talonflame(eats it up)
zard y(fire blast does 44~ max)
bisharp(can't touch it)
and it can check a lot more. the meaty 165 satk means it provides some nice n powerful offensive presence. here is the set i'm using:

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I would say you would want to adjust the Sp. Def EVs a bit if possible - 44% against Charizard Y is kind of scary as you're playing the odds a little. 20 seems to be a minimum to force a 3HKO after Stealth Rocks. Similar thoughts for Thundurus and Focus Blast. 20 is probably enough as you'll have a different Thundurus counter but I have always wanted a fabled Talonflame/Charizard Y counter so having both covered is amazing.

Semi-stall in the form of un-invested high end natural attack is an area I love to utilize. I actually have always enjoyed the idea of bringing Amphabulous to stall. Ampharos has an excellent typing for blocking many Flying threats. The set is one I've looked at before, albeit with Discharge or Thunderbolt instead of Volt Switch because Sleep Talking your way into a dumb switch would frustrate me to no end. Probably not a huge issue.

I'll try it out sometime and see if something fun comes out of it. It feels like an underrated toy for me to play around with.

 

[Sun King]

I've used Ewe God on a few teams (thank you CTC for the inspiration) and I would say that I think its typing lends itself to SpDef much more. Even invested in SpDef, you handily counter SmogBird. Not that PDef is bad or anything, but you resist more specially based attacks than physical ones, so I prefer to play to its strengths I guess. Either way, this thing is p good--takes a lot less damage than it looks like it should. ResTalk is amazing on this thing, cause you have the bulk to take hits--making it an effective status barrier. If, by chance, Sleep Talk Volt Switches you out, you can actually take advantage of the momentum and Heal Bell the team or Wish pass or something.

I give this a thumbs up.

EDIT: If you choose to use Fabio (my oh so affectionate nickname for its glorious mane), for the love of god, pair it with a levitator/flier--preferably one that can do something like lay rocks/defog/spike. Fabio forces switches enough that you can really take advantage of them and start to punish the switches. It helps add the oft sought after momentum to your team.

DOUBLE EDIT: It's worth noting that Mega Ampharos quad resists all of Skarmory's weaknesses, and Skarmory is immune to the Ground attacks Amphy draws.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

=

I've used Ewe God on a few teams (thank you CTC for the inspiration) and I would say that I think its typing lends itself to SpDef much more. Even invested in SpDef, you handily counter SmogBird. Not that PDef is bad or anything, but you resist more specially based attacks than physical ones, so I prefer to play to its strengths I guess. Either way, this thing is p good--takes a lot less damage than it looks like it should. ResTalk is amazing on this thing, cause you have the bulk to take hits--making it an effective status barrier. If, by chance, Sleep Talk Volt Switches you out, you can actually take advantage of the momentum and Heal Bell the team or Wish pass or something.

I give this a thumbs up.

EDIT: If you choose to use Fabio (my oh so affectionate nickname for its glorious mane), for the love of god, pair it with a levitator/flier--preferably one that can do something like lay rocks/defog/spike. Fabio forces switches enough that you can really take advantage of them and start to punish the switches. It helps add the oft sought after momentum to your team.

DOUBLE EDIT: It's worth noting that Mega Ampharos quad resists all of Skarmory's weaknesses, and Skarmory is immune to the Ground attacks Amphy draws.

the typing may lend itself to special defense, but physical defensive sheep can beat mega pinsir

 

[Sun King]

=

the typing may lend itself to special defense, but physical defensive sheep can beat mega pinsir

Skarmory also counters Pinsir, and it pairs extremely well with Sheep.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Skarmory also counters Pinsir, and it pairs extremely well with Sheep.

skarmory gets trapped by zone sheep doesnt.

 

[Sun King]

True, but Magnezone is getting UU usage, meaning pretty much nobody uses him. Magnezone also has its own host of problems. I think I've run into Maggy maybe once in the last month, and he's so easy to predict. Also, SpDef Sheep can handle Magnezone if you choose to pair it with Skarm.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

True, but Magnezone is getting UU usage, meaning pretty much nobody uses him. Magnezone also has its own host of problems. I think I've run into Maggy maybe once in the last month, and he's so easy to predict. Also, SpDef Sheep can handle Magnezone if you choose to pair it with Skarm.

magnezone is still a HUGE threat in conjunction with pinsir, i would be preparing for it properly

and besides, i prefer everything on my (semi)stall teams to pose some sort of an offensive threat, so skarm is a no bueno

 

[AM]

True, but Magnezone is getting UU usage, meaning pretty much nobody uses him. Magnezone also has its own host of problems. I think I've run into Maggy maybe once in the last month, and he's so easy to predict. Also, SpDef Sheep can handle Magnezone if you choose to pair it with Skarm.

Yeah idk send those players my way cause I'm seeing magnezone a lot =I. But yeah Skarmory is a pretty sweet partner for M-Ampharos so I can agree with that.

 

[Sun King]

magnezone is still a HUGE threat in conjunction with pinsir, i would be preparing for it properly

and besides, i prefer everything on my (semi)stall teams to pose some sort of an offensive threat, so skarm is a no bueno

I'll concede that Magnezone works well with Pinsir, but I wouldn't say that Counter is a slouch, offensively. I also think that perhaps building a semi stall team with so rigid a framework might be working against you. Not EVERYTHING needs to have power; Semi-Stall just needs to carry enough to prevent certain threats from switching in. I would actually argue that you need to dedicate one or two walls just because of the power creep. Otherwise things will get worn down easily.

At the same time, how are you defining Semi-Stall? I know some people define it differently than I do; I find the line that some people draw between Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall to be a bit blurry.

EDIT: I'd also like to add on that Mega Pinsir is not going to be switching in to Mega Ampharos anytime soon. Dragon Pulse will 2HKO, while Volt Switch has a high chance to OHKO. The entire core of Mega Pinsir/Magnezone is shut down by either Defensive or Specially Defensive Mega Ampharos.

EXTRA EDIT: Nothing is stopping you from running Shed Shell on Skarmory if you absolutely need to.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I'll concede that Magnezone works well with Pinsir, but I wouldn't say that Counter is a slouch, offensively. I also think that perhaps building a semi stall team with so rigid a framework might be working against you. Not EVERYTHING needs to have power; Semi-Stall just needs to carry enough to prevent certain threats from switching in. I would actually argue that you need to dedicate one or two walls just because of the power creep. Otherwise things will get worn down easily.

At the same time, how are you defining Semi-Stall? I know some people define it differently than I do; I find the line that some people draw between Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall to be a bit blurry.

EDIT: I'd also like to add on that Mega Pinsir is not going to be switching in to Mega Ampharos anytime soon. Dragon Pulse will 2HKO, while Volt Switch has a high chance to OHKO. The entire core of Mega Pinsir/Magnezone is shut down by either Defensive or Specially Defensive Mega Ampharos.

I'm defining semistall as something that can pressure the opposing team directly with 3-4 of their members.

 

[Sun King]

Then in that case, fitting Skarmory on to your team shouldn't be impossible.