Other Stall

[kirant]

Just a though about Ampharos - I think, despite the type issues it builds, Chesnaught makes sense on the same team. A major problem with Ampharos is a weakness to Sand Offence Pokemon...Tyranitar, Excadrill, Hippowdon, and the like. Chesnaught pretty much eats those for breakfast. Chesnaught often brings out Talonflame, something Ampharos can deal with mostly.

This does come up with a HUGE typing issue though. This introduces two Ice Weaknesses and two Fairy weaknesses and requires some extra adjustments to compensate for Gardevoir and Sylveon...threats to both Pokemon.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Just a though about Ampharos - I think, despite the type issues it builds, Chesnaught makes sense on the same team. A major problem with Ampharos is a weakness to Sand Offence Pokemon...Tyranitar, Excadrill, Hippowdon, and the like. Chesnaught pretty much eats those for breakfast. Chesnaught often brings out Talonflame, something Ampharos can deal with mostly.

This does come up with a HUGE typing issue though. This introduces two Ice Weaknesses and two Fairy weaknesses and requires some extra adjustments to compensate for Gardevoir and Sylveon...threats to both Pokemon.

add jirachi or bronzong to that core to patch up major weakness

 

[Sun King]

I'm lolling because you guys just made up half of CTC 's stall team from the Teambuilding Archive Thread (it's the last one in the OP). I highly recommend taking a look at it, because I've drawn a lot of inspiration from it, and it's quite good despite some oddball mons in it.

 

[kirant]

I'm lolling because you guys just made up half of CTC 's stall team from the Teambuilding Archive Thread (it's the last one in the OP). I highly recommend taking a look at it, because I've drawn a lot of inspiration from it, and it's quite good despite some oddball mons in it.

The important thing is that we're coming to our own conclusions. Now we must come up with the rest of that team without looking.

...Actually, never mind. I'd never get Mantine. Also, I'd likely have gone with a Hammer Arm on Chesnaught because it screws up Blissey/Chansey (viable 2HKO targets)...clerics which give Ampharos nightmares.

 

[Sun King]

The blobs would never stay in on Chesnaught (assuming they make the best possible play); Low Sweep is actually quite handy for nailing switch ins. Turning speed into a factor in an Offense vs. Stall matchup is more valuable than you would initially think--especially when you run the kind of power Ampharos brings (even uninvested that hits frail mons hard).

 

[kirant]

The blobs would never stay in on Chesnaught (assuming they make the best possible play); Low Sweep is actually quite handy for nailing switch ins. Turning speed into a factor in an Offense vs. Stall matchup is more valuable than you would initially think--especially when you run the kind of power Ampharos brings (even uninvested that hits frail mons hard).

Fair enough on not staying in. Not sure speed debuffs will help Ampharos (uninvested 45 base speed and all) but I could see it being huge on other match ups for the team...especially when he uses decent speed Pokemon like Arcanine.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Bumping this cause I love stall
How is stall performing now that meta has sort of settled?
What are the top stall teams?
Its pretty obvious which stall mons are good, but what do they work well with?

 

[kirant]

Bumping this cause I love stall
How is stall performing now that meta has sort of settled?
What are the top stall teams?
Its pretty obvious which stall mons are good, but what do they work well with?

I think the major shift recently has been to the use of Mega Gardevoir. It skyrocketed after the removal of Aegislash and Mega Mawile...two things that seriously screwed around with it. I'm honestly tempted to test out Jirachi since it brings together a few things stall loves (Wish capabilities, Steel typing, Flinch hax if you're into it...only major issue I think is its common weaknesses and using up a Psychic slot you'd probably prefer to hold for your Landorus counter).

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I think the major shift recently has been to the use of Mega Gardevoir. It skyrocketed after the removal of Aegislash and Mega Mawile...two things that seriously screwed around with it. I'm honestly tempted to test out Jirachi since it brings together a few things stall loves (Wish capabilities, Steel typing, Flinch hax if you're into it...only major issue I think is its common weaknesses and using up a Psychic slot you'd probably prefer to hold for your Landorus counter).

- jirachi

- mega scizor

- bronzong

- doublade

- victini

pick one. but like you said, by picking some of them you are forced to use another similar mon to cover other things.
Imo doublade, megascizor, and victini are most useful.

Jirachi and bronzong don't cover enough and don't have the offensive presence, (also easy to trap)

 

[kirant]

Jirachi and bronzong don't cover enough and don't have the offensive presence, (also easy to trap)

On Jirachi, can't you get around Magnet Pull via U-Turn? Not my favourite answer but if you're scared of Magnezone...

I kind of feel bad for Bronzong...it was my favourite wall in Gen IV.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

On Jirachi, can't you get around Magnet Pull via U-Turn? Not my favourite answer but if you're scared of Magnezone...

I kind of feel bad for Bronzong...it was my favourite wall in Gen IV.

yes, but your committing a moveslot to it and jirachi has 4 moveslot syndrome hardcore, also your pursuit trap weak. (can also get around it via u-turn and drain punch since it beats ttar/bisharp)

 

[kirant]

yes, but your committing a moveslot to it and jirachi has 4 moveslot syndrome hardcore, also your pursuit trap weak. (can also get around it via u-turn and drain punch since it beats ttar/bisharp)

Absolutely true, which is why I say it's not a great answer...similar to using Shed Shell on Skarmory for the intent of not getting Magnet Pulled (which still seems to occur on extremely rare occasion)

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Here's a Gliscor set I use to cover Mew and Mega Heracross, the two largest threats to stall there are

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Spe
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost

basically, the speed jumps Mew trying to jump Jolly Mega Heracross, so by extension, it also outspeed Mega Heracross. It doesn't give a fuck about Synchronize and it outspeeds, so it can Taunt it before it gets Taunted itself. Acrobatics is to get Mega Heracross. It also stall breaks pretty well, since the fastest thing you normally see on stall is Mew trying to jump Heracross.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Here's a Gliscor set I use to cover Mew and Mega Heracross, the two largest threats to stall there are

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Spe
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost

basically, the speed jumps Mew trying to jump Jolly Mega Heracross, so by extension, it also outspeed Mega Heracross. It doesn't give a fuck about Synchronize and it outspeeds, so it can Taunt it before it gets Taunted itself. Acrobatics is to get Mega Heracross. It also stall breaks pretty well, since the fastest thing you normally see on stall is Mew trying to jump Heracross.

only prob i have is it can't really switch in that easily as taunt screws it
also if orb hasn't activate knock off and wisp are big trouble.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

only prob i have is it can't really switch in that easily as taunt screws it
also if orb hasn't activate knock off and wisp are big trouble.

i tend to use a pivot to get it in, such as restalk mega ampharos. the two go hand in hand.

 

[Ajwf]

Here's the issue with shedinja: It is inconsistent. The 5 types it is weak to, all have dominant attackers in OU and two are incredible coverage attacks (Rock/Dark). Smogfrog is actually UNDERSELLING how bad Shedinja is, as many Excadrill beat it 100% (mold breaker), celebi support sets run rocks + leech seed, Politoed can toxic/perish song if support, can't attack ferrothorn at all, Skarmory should be opting for Brave Bird right now, and many of the mons still have coverage moves to annihilate shedinja at random.

The fact that Shedinja is immediately at risk of dying to any burn/toxic/sand/hail/leech seed support moves, dies to all entry hazards and is literally the hardest pokemon to use with a relatively low reward makes it nearly unusable competitively. Too many pokemon commonly run knock off, there's no recovery and while 12 immunities sounds great, that's only on paper... In practice, it looks exactly as smogfrog showed: There's very little room to come in. And Shedinja has almost NO utility outside of what it deals with. Especially in stall vs stall where you may not have access to shedinja for 100s of turns at a time, I see almost no justification for it.

On the bright side, it is the only pokemon in the game to resist (be immune) to scrappy normal/fight coverage (aka mega rabbit). Still probably won't give it much viability considering Skarmory probably will do fine.

 

[nmitchell890]

Moving the discussion away from Shedinja...

My suggestion is twofold, as shown in bold;

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Impish Nature
- Spikes / Roar
- Synthesis
- Hammer Arm / Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

First of all, investment in special defence. Chesnaught has similar defences to Hippowdon and useful resistances on both sides, investing in its weaker side gives Chesnaught bulk on both sides and allows it to do ridiculous things like wall Life Orb Thundurus-I and Choice Specs Keldeo locked into anything except super effective Hidden Power. Even Icy Wind only has a 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. On the physical side, +1 Mega Tyranitar does 69.4% max with Ice Punch and even bulky Swords Dance Mega Scizor fails to 2HKO at +2. Mixed bulk like this gives Chesnaught lots of opportunities to set up Spikes, notably against bulky water types (including Slowbro who fails to get a guaranteed 3HKO with Psyshock). Roar is still an option against setup sweepers but Chesnaught prefers to KO them outright. Hammer Arm OHKOs Mega Tyranitar whereas Wood Hammer OHKOes Terrakion, Hammer Arm needs less prior damage to KO Terrakion than Wood Hammer needs to KO Mega Tyranitar
Second, Stone Edge. Look at the pokemon that like to switch into Chesnaught. The most common are all found on birdspam teams. The vast majority are OHKOed on the switch in by Stone Edge. This takes the pressure off your birdspam counter a lot, especially if you chose Skarmory and the opponent packs Magnezone. This doesn't just hit birdspam, Mega Charizard Y is OHKOed, offensive Dragonite is 2HKOed after Multiscale is broken, Volcarona is OHKOed, offensive Mega Charizard X is 2HKOed over 75% of the time without Stealth Rock. I think Stone Edge is a very viable option on Chesnaught in general.

 

[Yamborski]

Moving the discussion away from Shedinja...

My suggestion is twofold, as shown in bold;

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Impish Nature
- Spikes / Roar
- Synthesis
- Hammer Arm / Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

First of all, investment in special defence. Chesnaught has similar defences to Hippowdon and useful resistances on both sides, investing in its weaker side gives Chesnaught bulk on both sides and allows it to do ridiculous things like wall Life Orb Thundurus-I and Choice Specs Keldeo locked into anything except super effective Hidden Power. Even Icy Wind only has a 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. On the physical side, +1 Mega Tyranitar does 69.4% max with Ice Punch and even bulky Swords Dance Mega Scizor fails to 2HKO at +2. Mixed bulk like this gives Chesnaught lots of opportunities to set up Spikes, notably against bulky water types (including Slowbro who fails to get a guaranteed 3HKO with Psyshock). Roar is still an option against setup sweepers but Chesnaught prefers to KO them outright. Hammer Arm OHKOs Mega Tyranitar whereas Wood Hammer OHKOes Terrakion, Hammer Arm needs less prior damage to KO Terrakion than Wood Hammer needs to KO Mega Tyranitar
Second, Stone Edge. Look at the pokemon that like to switch into Chesnaught. The most common are all found on birdspam teams. The vast majority are OHKOed on the switch in by Stone Edge. This takes the pressure off your birdspam counter a lot, especially if you chose Skarmory and the opponent packs Magnezone. This doesn't just hit birdspam, Mega Charizard Y is OHKOed, offensive Dragonite is 2HKOed after Multiscale is broken, Volcarona is OHKOed, offensive Mega Charizard X is 2HKOed over 75% of the time without Stealth Rock. I think Stone Edge is a very viable option on Chesnaught in general.

While Bulletproof works better against more special moves than physical it seems like you are depleting Chesnaught's ability to face things it is good at fighting like Tyranitar and Excadrill to sort of suck less at fighting things it really has no business going against. If I wanted a mixed defensive Grass type I would probably just run M Venusaur.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Moving the discussion away from Shedinja...

My suggestion is twofold, as shown in bold;

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Impish Nature
- Spikes / Roar
- Synthesis
- Hammer Arm / Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

First of all, investment in special defence. Chesnaught has similar defences to Hippowdon and useful resistances on both sides, investing in its weaker side gives Chesnaught bulk on both sides and allows it to do ridiculous things like wall Life Orb Thundurus-I and Choice Specs Keldeo locked into anything except super effective Hidden Power. Even Icy Wind only has a 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. On the physical side, +1 Mega Tyranitar does 69.4% max with Ice Punch and even bulky Swords Dance Mega Scizor fails to 2HKO at +2. Mixed bulk like this gives Chesnaught lots of opportunities to set up Spikes, notably against bulky water types (including Slowbro who fails to get a guaranteed 3HKO with Psyshock). Roar is still an option against setup sweepers but Chesnaught prefers to KO them outright. Hammer Arm OHKOs Mega Tyranitar whereas Wood Hammer OHKOes Terrakion, Hammer Arm needs less prior damage to KO Terrakion than Wood Hammer needs to KO Mega Tyranitar
Second, Stone Edge. Look at the pokemon that like to switch into Chesnaught. The most common are all found on birdspam teams. The vast majority are OHKOed on the switch in by Stone Edge. This takes the pressure off your birdspam counter a lot, especially if you chose Skarmory and the opponent packs Magnezone. This doesn't just hit birdspam, Mega Charizard Y is OHKOed, offensive Dragonite is 2HKOed after Multiscale is broken, Volcarona is OHKOed, offensive Mega Charizard X is 2HKOed over 75% of the time without Stealth Rock. I think Stone Edge is a very viable option on Chesnaught in general.

how does rockslide compare does it get the kos?

 

[kirant]

how does rockslide compare does it get the kos?

Talonflame is a OHKO with either. It rolls the dice on Charizard Y (62.5% OHKO, something you can correct with an EV adjustment of 68 attack). Pinsir is a OHKO with Stone Edge only (and needs 32 Attack EVs to beat the typical 252 Attack/Speed Pinsir). Volcarona isn't really a OHKO from either unless you invest heavily in attack (180 attack EVs for Stone Edge to OHKO).

I would typically agree that Chesnaught really doesn't want to be a mixed wall. Unless there's no way around it on your team and you NEED to have a mixed grass wall but can't remove Chesnaught as your sand offence counter, a physically defensive model kind of better suits your needs. The big concern is that many water types which focus on special run Scald, stall's best friend and probably Chesnaught's worst offensive enemy (besides things that fly) as your ability to hurt is severely damaged by taking a burn.

 

[nmitchell890]

Talonflame is a OHKO with either. It rolls the dice on Charizard Y (62.5% OHKO, something you can correct with an EV adjustment of 68 attack). Pinsir is a OHKO with Stone Edge only (and needs 32 Attack EVs to beat the typical 252 Attack/Speed Pinsir). Volcarona isn't really a OHKO from either unless you invest heavily in attack (180 attack EVs for Stone Edge to OHKO).

I would typically agree that Chesnaught really doesn't want to be a mixed wall. Unless there's no way around it on your team and you NEED to have a mixed grass wall but can't remove Chesnaught as your sand offence counter, a physically defensive model kind of better suits your needs. The big concern is that many water types which focus on special run Scald, stall's best friend and probably Chesnaught's worst offensive enemy (besides things that fly) as your ability to hurt is severely damaged by taking a burn.

I can see your point about Scald. I fit cleric support on my team anyway as I run two RestTalk mons but not everyone has room for that.

 

[Sun King]

ok i'm gonna pull up the viability thread real quick
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Azumarill loses to knock off

Charizard (Mega-X) lol

Keldeo loses to HP flying

Landorus- loses to knock off

Thundurus- beats most common set, but has many variations that beat sehdinja

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y) lol

Clefable flamethrower

Excadrill rock slide

Ferrothorn leech seed

Greninja hp fire

Gyarados (Mega) beats every variation

Heatran lol

Heracross (Mega) rock blast

Landorus-T knock off/rock slide
Latias loses to HP fire
Latios read latias

Pinsir (Mega) lol

Talonflame lol

Terrakion lol
Venusaur (Mega) loses to HP fire/leech seed

A Rank

Bisharp lol

Dragonite loses to fire punch
Garchomp stone edge/fire blast
Gardevoir (Mega) can taunt you, but you can beat it 1v1(assuming no SR)

Gengar shadow ball
Gliscor toxic
Mamoswine sets SR so you can't beat its teammates
Medicham (Mega) gotta give you this one

Mew wisp/knock off

Rotom-W wisp

Scizor (Mega) knock off
Tyranitar sets sand

Tyranitar (Mega) sets sand

A- Rank

Amoonguss foul play/hp fire
Breloom spores you/rock tomb
Chansey well anything can wall this lol
Diggersby you win
Gyarados bounce from sub wins

Hippowdon sets sand
Kyurem-B teravolt
Mandibuzz foul play/toxic

Skarmory can't touch you but can't touch anything

Slowbro has coverage to beat you

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega) lol

Alakazam (Mega) shadow ball/hp fire

Alomomola toxic

Kabutops rock stab
Magnezone runs HP fire
Manaphy you win here
Manectric (Mega) overheat

Politoed eh you win here but always has kabutops/omastar as a teammate

Quagsire toxic
Scolipede bps out/rock slide
Starmie you win
Suicune stalls you out
Tornadus-T knock off
Victini v-create kills literal thousands of shedinjas in one hit

B Rank

Celebi eh you win
Garchomp (Mega) fire blast

Kingdra eh you win
Raikou shadow ball

Scizor pursuit
Staraptor brave bird kills thousands of shedinjas in one hit
Zapdos heat wave

B- Rank

Ampharos (Mega) mold breaker

Chesnaught leech seed

Conkeldurr knock off
Entei lol fire
Gothitelle traps+hp fire
Lucario wins if crunch

Rhyperior obliterates
Sableye knock off/wisp
Weavile lol

I'm not saying I disagree with you that Shedinja is not a good choice for stall, but I am going to say that--and this goes for everyone--if you are building a stall team based around FIRST countering the viability list, I'm going to point you straight towards the usage statistics. The first thing I look at when building a team is what mons are currently OU; I run down that list, and come up with the best answers to what is most consistently being used. For example--Hippowdon may have been an A- in the viability rankings during August, but its usage is below OU; what I'm getting at is that you should be prepared for what is being used, not necessarily what is viable. Something you commonly see in suspect threads is the "Usage/Viability Argument". For those of you not familiar, it goes like this, "A Pokemon's usage does not equal its viability". That is 100% correct; however, you can also say that just because a Pokemon is viable, it does not mean it will be used. In other words, "Viability does not equal usage". Our job as stall builders is to counter the meta--or--counter what is being used. If 45% of the entire 1825+ OU player base suddenly started using Zygarde, would you build a team that can't handle Zygarde even if it isn't one of the top threats? Of course not, because that would mean you'd end up losing 45% of your games.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I'm not saying I disagree with you that Shedinja is not a good choice for stall, but I am going to say that--and this goes for everyone--if you are building a stall team based around FIRST countering the viability list, I'm going to point you straight towards the usage statistics. The first thing I look at when building a team is what mons are currently OU; I run down that list, and come up with the best answers to what is most consistently being used. For example--Hippowdon may have been an A- in the viability rankings during August, but its usage is below OU; what I'm getting at is that you should be prepared for what is being used, not necessarily what is viable. Something you commonly see in suspect threads is the "Usage/Viability Argument". For those of you not familiar, it goes like this, "A Pokemon's usage does not equal its viability". That is 100% correct; however, you can also say that just because a Pokemon is viable, it does not mean it will be used. In other words, "Viability does not equal usage". Our job as stall builders is to counter the meta--or--counter what is being used. If 45% of the entire 1825+ OU player base suddenly started using Zygarde, would you build a team that can't handle Zygarde even if it isn't one of the top threats? Of course not, because that would mean you'd end up losing 45% of your games.

that post is so 1337, but trouble with this is meta is constantly changing one months usage doesn't = anothers. Also when facing a top battler in tourney's ladder usage goes right out the window so have to be prepared for anthing.

Previous month usage is great place to start tho.

 

[Sun King]

Well the meta constantly shifts around what was previously used--so it's absolutely still relevant when team building. For example, if Knock Off Lando/Charizard-Y cores were common enough to earn them #1 & 2 spots in usage, I would expect the next month's changes to revolve around beating said core. Not that I disagree with you--I don't--because the metagame IS constantly changing; it's just not changing so rapidly that we can't keep up with it. Also, as far as tourney stats go, I really can't help you there. I'm mostly a ladder player (really more of a team builder than a player these days), so I'm mostly focused on that. I've heard that tourneys are all about surprising your opponents with stuff that isn't commonly thoroughly prepared for, however. In that case, I'd imagine stall is pretty good because it's consistent with the types of threats it can handle.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Anyone want to give me an effective stall team?