Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Nominating Chesnaught for C+ rank.

Chesnaught really isn't that good imo. Surely it has a niche on stall teams where it can wall stuff like Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar and it also has Spikes and a nifty ability but it just isn't that good. Almost every stall team uses Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Celebi or Amoongus instead as a bulky Grass types and usually you won't see Chesnaught on the same team to avoid type redundancy. Due to this Chesnaught faces quite a bit of competition for a team slot. Also the Pokemon Chesnaught can deal with aren't that big of a threat to stall teams really. Mega Gyarados is walled by Alomomola and Skarmory. Mega Tyranitar has trouble with Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Quagsire etc you get the point. Spikes is a nice thing Chesnaught has but Skarmory have also been starting to run Spikes lately so it's niche isn't that unique. Also Bulletproof is a good ability but not really for Chesnaught. SubWisp Gengar can easily win vs. Chesnaught which is the main thing that uses Bomb and Ball based moves. Chesnaught is also an open invite to Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir which isn't really a good thing for stall. All in all Chesnaught isn't that bad but it faces competition from a lot of other Grass types and it kind of feels out of place in B- rank.
Yeah you're missing a huge point in what makes Chesnaught good. The fact that Chesnaught has enough bulk and the tools to beat Sand Offense 1v1 is one thing you forgot to mention. Imo walling things like M-Gyarados and M-Ttar is a pretty good thing and you're missing the fact that M-TTar can change around its coverage move to beat Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Hippowdon and teams built around M-TTar know that it only needs some chip damage to make this happen. Chesnaught walls a lot of of other stuff like the popular Lando-T as well barring the rare Hp Flying that is used for M-Heracross specifically. So yeah I haven't seen a single Skarmory running Spikes lately cause now it's losing something more useful so no idea where that came from. Spikes is one of Chesnaughts best tools on stall teams so that they're not passive as hell in a metagame that punishes passiveness and can focus on long term damage to secure wins and take out grounded threats. You're exaggerating the open invite thing with M-Gardevoir when any competent stall team at this point should have an answer to M-Gard in the form of something like Jirachi, Bronzong, or something like Doublade. The fact it faces such competition for a team slot is the reason why it's secured at B- and not higher. More cliche stall teams will more than likely be running the grass mons you mentioned but doesn't necessarily mean that Chesnaught is outclassed as a whole when the teams it occupies is usually more suited to the meta than the other grass types. It's fine at B- and as such should stay there.
 
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Jukain

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I'll take a stab at trying to explain this a bit more clearly.

There is an added opportunity cost when a Pokemon is a Mega Evolution. Normally, the opportunity cost in using one Pokemon over another simply boils down to whether it's worth using in the same role, eg revenge killer, hazard lead, wallbreaker. However with Mega Evolutions, you not only have to contend with those factors, but also the existence of other Megas, as you can only use one per team. Using one Mega means you can't use another and this directly impacts a lot of teambuilding decisions. An example of this would be me wanting to use SpD Mega Ampharos on a defensive team to deal with birds, Thundurus, and Mega Charizard Y. While this is an awesome combination of threat coverage in a teamslot, now I can't run Mega Venusaur, so all the different Waters that Ampharos can't beat are going to be serious problems. This is a massively simplified example, but you can see that in general, using Mega Ampharos is a massive opportunity cost when I can cover these threats in other ways, but Mega Venusaur is such a valuable asset for the defensive team in its combination of offensive and defensive utility that I would be making a mistake to use Mega Ampharos in many cases.

I hate when people talk about a Mega slot like it's something that's required, because it's not and there are definitely cases where people make poor teambuilding decisions under this mindset. However, there is no denying that Megas are some of the best Pokemon in the game and that being a Mega adds another layer of competition. Top-tier Megas are used on most teams because they are really just that good, and in most cases it isn't worth using other Megas. For a Mega to be ranked higher it has to have significant, justified reasons to be used for its role and over other Megas.
 
Mega Hera is A+ now? Woah. I know the AegiMaw bans helped him a lot but with his subpar speed and decent but not amazing bulk as well as being 4 times weak to birdspam STAB I don't see why he is A+. Unless someone can convince me otherwise Mega Heracross for A.
Mega Heracross is A+ because of its sheer power combined with Skill Link. He has an amazing coverage in form of Pin Missle, Close Combat, Bullet Seed and Rock Blast. He can be a very dangerous wallbreaker thanks to SD, so there are only a few good switch-ins.
His bulk is actually pretty good (80/115/105), so without a very effective attack or Bird-spam it is not easy to OHKO it.
With recovery or no weakness to bird-spam he would easily be S-Rank.
Also, because sand-offense is a very popular playstyle right now Mega-Heracross is more viable as ever, since it can defeat Tyranitar and Excadrill without any problems and after a SD even defensive Landorus-T has its problems with it.
 
I'll take a stab at trying to explain this a bit more clearly.

There is an added opportunity cost when a Pokemon is a Mega Evolution. Normally, the opportunity cost in using one Pokemon over another simply boils down to whether it's worth using in the same role, eg revenge killer, hazard lead, wallbreaker. However with Mega Evolutions, you not only have to contend with those factors, but also the existence of other Megas, as you can only use one per team. Using one Mega means you can't use another and this directly impacts a lot of teambuilding decisions. An example of this would be me wanting to use SpD Mega Ampharos on a defensive team to deal with birds, Thundurus, and Mega Charizard Y. While this is an awesome combination of threat coverage in a teamslot, now I can't run Mega Venusaur, so all the different Waters that Ampharos can't beat are going to be serious problems. This is a massively simplified example, but you can see that in general, using Mega Ampharos is a massive opportunity cost when I can cover these threats in other ways, but Mega Venusaur is such a valuable asset for the defensive team in its combination of offensive and defensive utility that I would be making a mistake to use Mega Ampharos in many cases.

I hate when people talk about a Mega slot like it's something that's required, because it's not and there are definitely cases where people make poor teambuilding decisions under this mindset. However, there is no denying that Megas are some of the best Pokemon in the game and that being a Mega adds another layer of competition. Top-tier Megas are used on most teams because they are really just that good, and in most cases it isn't worth using other Megas. For a Mega to be ranked higher it has to have significant, justified reasons to be used for its role and over other Megas.
I very much agree with you about the mega slot. I have made the odd team, that simply did not need any of any of the mega pokemon, so why force it right? I think it's a very important note, taking up a mega slot can be a burden if you wnat to use a mega, say raikou vs mega manetric. One of the main draws for using raikou over mega manetric, is the ability to use an additional mega while retaining the a similar role manetric would fill in raikou. Well at least it's one of my main reasons for choosing raikou, as it gives me the additional mega slot as an example of how taking up a slot can hurt viability, if an alternative exists. At the same time if i don't need one of the mega's and raikou fills a role over manetric such as assault vest or calm mind, there is no point forcing a mega on the team if other pokemon fills the role better, without a mega evolution.

Sorry if that was worded poorly
 
Empoleon C- ===> C or higher

Why? First of all Empoleon can play both Defogger and Stealth rock setter role , can check greatly notable Pokemons in the OU metagame: Greninja , non-superpower Azumarill , Talonflame , Heatran , Latias ecc... He May be an alternative to Roar specially defensive Setter Heatran.
I also noticed that is used in Medium/High Pokèmon Showdown ladder. His scald can be really useful to burn physical attackers. I'm sure that this pokemon deserves that rank.
 
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Karxrida

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Empoleon is severely outclassed by Skarmory as a Defogfer/Rocks setter combo. While it has better offensive presence with Scald, it still isn't beating Bisharp unless it gets a burn, and even then you can't Defog since the Defiant boost will negate the Attack drop. Lack of recovery outside of Lefties means Bisharp's Knock Off is far more detrimental and lower defense means it's hurting more. Skarmory can at least use Whirlwind if Bisharp switched in in a Defog and can heal itself later with Roost, while Empoleon requires Wish support to stay healthy.
 
Mega Heracross detonates sand offense, mangles stall, fits most playstyles, and has almost no safe switch ins. The flying weakness doesn't even matter that much as long as you have a good check to the birds chilling in the back. A+ seems fine for it,especially considering it was pretty underrated before.
I agree that A+ fits MegaHera. However, if I can attempt to make a better clarification of the situation.

Mega Heracross was by no stretch of the imagination "underrated." If there was one person who benefited from the bans of Aegislash and Mega Mawile its this guy. When it came to shitting on stall, Mega Mawile was simply to good to pass up and regardless of what set you ran on Aegislash; Heracross would need to run something like EQ to act as a lure, however, this was at the cost of a much more needed coverage move like Rock Blast for Flying types on the switch.

So instead of saying "underrated," I believe that better projection of the rise to A+ has to do with the power void that created with the banning of Mega Mawile and with its bane of existence, Aegislash, getting the boot before that, there was no longer any reason to truly ignore this behemoth any longer aside from simple preferences. That's, at least, what I see when looking at MegaHera's rise to prominence.
 
Empoleon is severely outclassed by Skarmory as a Defogfer/Rocks setter combo. While it has better offensive presence with Scald, it still isn't beating Bisharp unless it gets a burn, and even then you can't Defog since the Defiant boost will negate the Attack drop. Lack of recovery outside of Lefties means Bisharp's Knock Off is far more detrimental and lower defense means it's hurting more. Skarmory can at least use Whirlwind if Bisharp switched in in a Defog and can heal itself later with Roost, while Empoleon requires Wish support to stay healthy.
Not at all, empoleon checks completely different shit like ninja, clefable and talonflame and is far more of abspdef wall than skarm. It also has an effective choice specs set which hits pretty hard and has good surprise factor. The lack of reliable recovery is definitely a problem so C rank is perfect.
 
Yea, Mega Heracross is fine in A+. I think this thread is already super stable for the upper rankings, but there are some things I feel that deserve to move up/down.

Rhyperior is B material, even B+ if you think. It seems like I'm going up by force not baby steps, but this thing can't even be compared to Sableye, Weavile, and Chesnaught in utility for B- Rankings and things like Zapdos, Staraptor, and Hawlucha which I garuntee that Rhyperior can do better. It is the most reliable defensive Stealth Rock setter in OU bar Landorus-T, isn't passive at all, and unlike other walls it hits like a truck. It counters so many things, and almost all of them are super common and top tier threats: Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Heatran, Nasty Plot Thundurus-I (even normal if SpD tank), Dragonite, Mega Tyranitar, and due to solid rock, it can take some powerful attacks and retaliate for an OHKO (with/without prior damage) against Mega Pinsir, Landorus-I (SpD Tank which is getting more common), Garchomp, Excadrill, Terrakion, etc. It covers so much and can cripple random bulky water-types with Toxic as well.

Jirachi can go to B+. IT has proven itself with the declining usage of Bisharp, Mega Mawile, and Aegislash gone, and the only thing that is a prevalent ghost user is Gengar, in which Jirachi can survive a Shadow Ball, and ParaHax it to death. The SubToxic set is the most annoying Jirachi set. It uses its great typing to set up and Toxic the death out of defensive teams, and like the things immune to Toxic are like 2HKOed by Fire Punch bar Heatran. It counters Mega Gardevoir and can check BirdSPAM p. well like Rhyperior and has some other sets like Choice Scarf which add to its unpredictability. It wasn't good enough to even get an analysis, but the metagame has shifted so well towards it, that it can even have a devastating CM set that consistently give Wishes off to teammates.

Sylveon to B-. It hits hard with its Choice Specs set getting an ample amount of switch in oppurtunities with its typing and bulk and has a good wish set. Definetely not at the level as other C+ 'mons. Move it up.

Diancie pls drop

KK.

e: forgot to mention how great mixed attacker rachi is for offensive teams and reason why it shouldnt go to a- is because of sand offense
 
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RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
Not at all, empoleon checks completely different shit like ninja, clefable and talonflame and is far more of abspdef wall than skarm. It also has an effective choice specs set which hits pretty hard and has good surprise factor. The lack of reliable recovery is definitely a problem so C rank is perfect.
Our problem with little Empoleon is that it can't work in the meta rn. With things running around like Thundurus I and Keldeo, Empoleon does not stand much chance. Im not saying Empoleon is complete trash, but it cannot fit in the meta.
Flaws:
Meh Defense
Meh Special Attack
Horrible Speed
subpar HP
Meh movepool

I think its only niche is being a Defog/SR combo that Skarmory outclasses it with. Also if Tflame and Clef is a problem to you, run Heatran.
 
Our problem with little Empoleon is that it can't work in the meta rn. With things running around like Thundurus I and Keldeo, Empoleon does not stand much chance. Im not saying Empoleon is complete trash, but it cannot fit in the meta.
Flaws:
Meh Defense
Meh Special Attack
Horrible Speed
subpar HP
Meh movepool

I think its only niche is being a Defog/SR combo that Skarmory outclasses it with. Also if Tflame and Clef is a problem to you, run Heatran.
Can heatran check azumarill? And I doing that 'analysis' to its stats doesn't prove shit, I can do the same to skarmory and come up with great defense and shit everything, it doesn't prove anything. Alse have you ever used it?
 
Okay, I dont usually post in these threads, but i want to get this empoleon stuff out of the way.

Empoleon's niche lies in its solid special bulk and a typing, which lets it counter Greninja and check Azumarill. Rocks also make it pretty nifty. Empoleon should not be running Defog in OU. Okay, it shouldn't be running both rocks and defog. A specs set works too - the defensive typing is really nice.

RichieTheGarchomp that stat analysis thing doesn't really make any sense. Clefable has seemingly average stats yet its a top tier threat. Honestly, I think you need to lurk some more, but I won't get into that.

With that being said I don't really think Empoleon deserves a C ranking. I think C- fits for now.
edit: lol i remembered it was d rank last time i saw, fixed

edit 2: now that I think of it Empoleon could be C rank. Its' ability to counter Greninja and check Azumarill as well as Lati@s, while also being able to either set Stealth Rock or remove hazards with Defog can be amazing for some teams. The defensive typing is really nice - it can check the common rain sweepers/wallbreakers, Kingdra, non-Low Kick Kabutops, and Omastar. A specs set can handle Clefable which is really handy. Lastly, Scald can make it pretty annoying to switch in to. It has pretty common weaknesses, but I think it fits the definition of C pretty well
 
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RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
I was decently biased, i can agree.
I don't need to lurk no more. Ive been playing PS for 6 months and while i don't know EVERY single mons and their usage, i know a decent amount. Although it isn't D rank, it should never, EVER be C rank at this meta.
Another thing to note is the reason why Clef is a top teir threat is cause of its abilities and move pool. It can work as a cleric, CM user, Cosmic Power attacker, and more. Empoleon? Checks Gren and Azu. And Azu never runs Superpower, right?
 
I was decently biased, i can agree.
I don't need to lurk no more. Ive been playing PS for 6 months and while i don't know EVERY single mons and their usage, i know a decent amount. Although it isn't D rank, it should never, EVER be C rank at this meta.
Another thing to note is the reason why Clef is a top teir threat is cause of its abilities and move pool. It can work as a cleric, CM user, Cosmic Power attacker, and more. Empoleon? Checks Gren and Azu. And Azu never runs Superpower, right?
I made the Clefable comparison just to show that the stat analysis thing really doesn't make much sense. Also Cosmic Power is a garbage set lol, anyone who knows me knows how I feel about it. Of course some Azumarill run Superpower, that's why Empoleon is a check.

I don't think Chesnaught should drop. It does indeed face quite a bit of competition with Ferrothorn, however Chesnaught takes on Sub M-Gyara and Terrakion, which is pretty cool. Spiky Shield is a pretty nifty move, and Spikes is really cool on stall for pressuring your opponent. Chesnaught also has some pretty good synergy with the common Stall spinners, such as Tentacruel and Starmie. It's also really nice against sand, taking on Excadrill and Tyranitar quite easily. B- fits Chesnaught pretty well.
 

Jukain

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man it's so obvious that the empoleon haters have never used it. empoleon is pretty good. killer defensive typing lets it serve as a good response to clefable, lati@s bar eq/tbolt (which are rarer nowadays), greninja, and azumarill (superpower is ass on this btw lol). it can run either a choice specs offensive set or a defensive support set. anecdotal experience: specs hydro ohkoed a breloom after rocks. specs is a pretty damn strong, excellent supporting nuke. its defensive typing lets it pivot into or at least check quite a few mons and then proceed to smash the opposing team in with really poweful attacks. defensive empoleon meanwhile has solid supporting options in stealth rock, roar, defog as well as a scald and toxic to pose a nice threat and cripple opposing mons (btw sr + defog is ass please don't run that). it really requires very little support too, which is pretty huge when comparing it to other mons in that range of ranks. c is plenty fair for it.
 
Ok time to do this again

Staraptor B > B+

This thing got so much better with Aegislash and Mega Mawile leaving. Just Banded Brave Bird/Double Edge/Close Combat/U-turn and possibly Quick Attack destroys so much stuff that you literally can't find a good switch in that isn't 2HKOd. You can revenge it easily sure but does that matter when you can just switch? Pursuit Bisharp takes a ton from either STAB on the switch and if you think they'll switch to it just U-turn out anyway. Also Tyranitar and Bisharp are easily OHKOd by Close Combat so they're not switching in easily even if they didn't take a ton from its STABs. This thing also works well on Sticky Web because outside of Burd and the Latis it outspeeds everything that lacks priority now. CB (or I guess you can run Scarf but don't) Raptor is just an amazing Pokemon that needs to move up. Also just use Magnezone with this.

Espeon C+ > C or C-

It's garbage after the BP nerf and it doesn't even set screens that well, can it go away please

Klefki C+ > B-

Ok stats and the best defensive typing in the game along with Spikes, screens, TWave, and the ability to break Subs with Foul Play or Play Rough so you can't set up on it that easily. Sure it's complete Landorus bait but it's not a wall, it's used for utility, so that's not a big deal, it can set up Light Screen then die, to the point it's done its job

Porygon2 C > C+

Someone made an excellent post on how good Trace is in the V2 thread, aside from that does this thing ever die if it doesn't take a CC/Focus Blast/Toxic/Knock Off

Salamence D > C

ScarfMence with Moxie is a decent late game cleaner. It may seem outclassed by Charizard X, but it has the ability to go mixed, hold a Scarf, or really any other item, and that sets it apart somewhat from other Dragon-types.

Zygarde D > C

Again someone made an excellent post on SubCoil, this thing shouldn't be in the same rank as garbage like Granbull, Seismitoad, and Empoleon.

Staraptor B > B+
Espeon C+ > C or C-
Keys C+ > B-
P2 C > C+
Salamence D > C
Zygarde D > C
(though I can see Zygarde and Mence in C- rather than C, the rest I still agree with)

A lot of people agreed with this post so I'm hoping it is given a bit more consideration before the next update, and with it I have a few more noms

Blissey for gtfo rank

Blissey is hopelessly outclassed by Chansey. The only reason it wasn't removed before was because Jukain mentioned some situation where his team would otherwise be 6-0d by Knock Off Landorus, but that doesn't mean anything. Itemless Chansey is only a bit worse than itemless Blissey and Chansey simply pulls its weight outside of that, and it's not total garbage with a Knocked Off Eviolite (or you could, you know not let that happen)
Toxicroak for D

It's garbage even without Aegislash, don't bother.

Diancie for D

Again, garbage.

Wobbuffet for C-/D

Outclassed by Gothitelle and easy to take advantage of through U-turn, Toxic, Volt Switch, any status really. Encore isn't valid here because what common sweeper likes eating a Toxic or TWave or Will-O

Hydra should stay

It wasn't an offensive Aegislash check, it was a Latios without Defog that had no direct counters and was slower, but also had U-turn, and was a special Dragon that isn't Pursuit weak

Scizor for B-

Outclassed by Mega Scizor but CB is kind of usable

Staraptor B > B+
Espeon C+ > C or C-
Keys C+ > B-
P2 C > C+
Salamence D > C
Zygarde D > C
Blissey off the list
Toxicroak for D
Diancie for D
Wobbuffet for C-/D
Hydreigon should stay in C
Scizor for B-


Also guys S and A are perfect as is. Besides Manaphy possibly dropping, and Gardevoir and Pinsir possibly rising, all of which I agree they're perfect. And no Crawdaunt isn't that bad. Trick Room is viable but its matchup reliant, and the Pokemon used on it shouldn't be treated as a whole as if the playstyle is the only thing determining their viability (exception of Diancie but that'd a bad mon)
 
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Aragorn the King

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Let me think about moving Emp up. A current list of mons in C rank is: Alakazam, Bronzong, Blastoise (Mega), Gastrodon, Doublade, Chandelure, Houndoom, Hydreigon, Magneton, Mienshao, Porygon2, Rotom-H, Thundurus-T, Volcarona, and Wobbuffet. Of these, all (or most) have a tiny niche, but are too mediocre to be used on all teams. There's a distinct drop in viability between it and C+ (compare Houdoom to Togekiss) and a noticeable increase in viability between it and C- (compare Doublade to Noivern). Whether C is too inflated, I'm not sure, but I definitely think Empoleon compares favorably to most of the mons in C. For perspective, Empoleon has two viable sets: a defensive set that has the capability to, albeit not in one set, burn things, remove hazards, set hazards, phaze things, check Azumarill, check clefable, check lati@s, and check greninja, and and offensive set that relies on its power to check the mons I just listed, plus CroCune. Many teams are plagued by CroCune and CroFable, and Specs Empoleon is a stop to both. Looking at those pros, and the only true cons being a) its being a bulky water that doesn't resist fire and b) an absence of recovery, it's pretty cool and definitely has a niche in OU.

I'd argue that none of Alakazam, Blastoise, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Houndoom, Magneton, Mienshao, Porygon2, Rotom-H, Volcarona, and Wobbuffet are as viable and can contribute as much as Empoleon in a team. That doesn't go to say that any of them are bad, it's just that they either face extreme (albeit not complete) competition (Blastoise>Starmie, Magnezone>Magneton, Gothitelle>Wobbufett, Mega Zam>Zam, etc) or just don't do much (Porygon2, Rotom-H). Bronzong, Gastrodon, Doublade, and Thundurus-T are definitely the best mons currently in C rank, and comparing them to Empoleon is relatively easy. Empoleon has offensive (hard hitting, good coverage) and defensive (burning, phazing, rocks, defog, checking azu, lati@s, fable, ninja, crocune, etc) utility, very similar to the four best C rank mons. I don't really want to list why Gastrodon, Doublade, Thundy-T, and Bronzong are the cream of the crop of the C's, but hopefully my comparison of empoleon to them made sense. Basically Emp's a really good mon with more than one niche in OU. Pokemon in C- are either EXTREMELY specialized (Diancie + Exploud = TR ONLY, Ludicolo + Tornadus = Rain only, Venomoth + Gorebyss = BP only) or just not impactful on the OU metagame, while still holding of a niche (Gourgeist-S, Haxorus), and I think comparing the mighty penguin to them is really difficult. Emp actually has an impact on the metagame and is versatile, so a rise to C definitely makes sense to me.

I know this might will be totally hated on, but I think Togekiss should rise to B-. It's commonly thought of a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none Pokemon, but so is Garchomp, and that's A. Togekiss and Garchomp both share a) an incapability of mastering anything and b) extreme versatility. I'll stop comparing Kiss to Chomp here, because I'm arguing for B-, not A. Basically, while Togekiss has two huge issues (the SR weakness and the Electric-weakness) and one smaller one (competition with fable), it's able to secure some interesting niches. My favorite set of Toge's is the NastyPass set. The set works because of Togekiss's massive bulk, and while its typing isn't the best, it still provides excellent synergy with Electric-types. Thundurus-I already has nasty plot and is immune to ground, so toge is a bit useless for it. However, the other three big offensive electrics (Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, and Raikou), all greatly appreciate the sweeping ability and the ground immunity that only Togekiss can provide. Masterclass made an excellent team using Togekiss + Ampharos, and I definitely implore you to check it out. Togekiss's second best set, in my opinion, is its Life Orb set, which is really cool. It again offers defensive synergy, but instead of using Nasty Plot to make its teammates threatening, it uses it with a Life Orb to destroy things. This sets only huge problem is the choice between Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, and Roost (you can only pick two). Otherwise, even with only 80 base speed, LO toge is a really cool set. Then there's the bread and butter specially defensive set, which has a few perks. Fire and foremost, it beats non-Sludge Wave Landorus, which basically should be all Landorus at this point. Other than Landorus, it's also able to serve as an emergency check to Landorus-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Mega Gardevoir, while being able to provide hazard removal support, paralysis support for slower teams, offensive presence, and Heal Bell. It can't run all at once, but it's still an interesting defogger capable of beating grounds + less reliably keldeo and gardevoir. It also flinches everything, which allows it to, especially with twave, limit what can beat it.

Electric types are the bane of Togekiss' existence, but it's still able to cope, providing sufficient team support. I think Togekiss' access to Nasty Plot, which is either able to make any special attacker, but specifically Electric types, or itself, extremely dangerous, plus its defensive utility (ground check, garde check, keld check, defog, heal bell, twave) warrants a move up to B-. It's commonly hated on, like Empoleon, but it's not all that different from other B- mons. Ampharos takes the mega slot, needs either togekiss or rain if it's offensive, has to deal with its non mega form (ie it can't switch in on chary if it hasn't evolved yet), and has an absence of reliable recovery. Nevertheless, its unique defensive typing, good coverage, and access to Agility let it carve itself two niches in OU. Togekiss has reliable recovery, the ability to remove rocks, and doesn't cost a mega slot. However it lacks Ampharos' excellent defensive typing and sr neutrality, so I'd say defensively they're about on par. Offensively, Ampharos really needs support to shine (nasty pass or rain), while togekiss doesn't. However, Togekiss is slower, so it's somewhat harder to use v. offense. It also doesn't cause any strain on teambuilding, other than needing a defogger. Again, I'd say their about on par. Then, Toge also has its best set imo, a slow baton passing set capable of making so many pokemon, specifically ampharos, absolutely terrifying. Admittedly it has its flaws, but its not different from Ampharos, Cress, or Chesnaught. All have certain exploitable weaknesses, but have either versatility or extreme proficiency at what they do to make up for it. Togekiss is ridiculously similar to these three; it's versatile as hell, has exploitable weaknesses, and is very good at at least one of its roles, NastyPassing. It's really easy to hate on, since it was so hyped earlier, but I think now it's under hyped.

I disagree with Toxicroak dropping. It's able to check Keldeo, Azumarill, Kabutops, Omastar, and Politoad, which is pretty fantastic. It puts a lot of pressure on teams with these mons, since any water move is a free switch for it. It's able to be played around by Azumarill, but Keldeo can't as reliably, since Toxicroak can and should be EVs so that Secret Sword doesn't 2HKO, and HP Flying is a really risky to move on the switch. It's able to abuse rain with recovery, and also has a pretty solid typing. Despite its poor bulk, it has a lot of defensive niches. It's also good offensively, since STAB Gunk Shot is really powerful and is able to threaten one of the most common defensive Pokemon in the tier: Clefable. Drain Punch is nice for threatening Chansey, who is decreasing in popularity, but is still relevant, as well as adding to its recovery potential (getting hit by water moves, being in the rain, Black Sludge, Drain Punch). It also has Sucker Punch, which is really nice to hit Psychic-types, trying to abuse Toxicroak's quad weakness. In its last slot, it commonly uses Ice Punch to hit Gliscor and Land-T on the switch, but also can use Swords Dance to boost its STAB moves and its priority. I think its ability to check water-types, put pressure on two of the bestmons in the tier, and its offensive capability makes it worth C-.
 

AM

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Might as well get some discussion going to clean up the lower rankings since the higher ones are pretty solid looking now and no changes are really needed and would be mostly subjective. Not going to bother touching on the D rank stuff cause I think it's always been irrelevant to bother discussing a rank I think is a waste to have even for newcomers.
Quagsire B+ > B
I think Quagsire has become less efficient honestly. The caliber of wall breakers has increased and Quagsire's capabilities before was enough to justify B+ rank when it handled set up sweepers that relied on setting up to actually do damage. With things like M-Hera and M-Gard out and about not even needing to set up to put a serious dent in teams, it's generally not as useful as it was before.
Jirachi B > B+
Jirachi is pretty great in the meta right now in terms of being a B ranked mon. One of the best checks to the Latis and Garde, a couple of great sets to utilize like, Wish support, Serene Grace, just some neat stuff to work with. It can be used for offensive or defensive roles and I believe Jirachi is of equal viability or more to some of the B+ ranked mons, especially those that are there for specific roles only and not so much versatility.
Azelf B- > B Azelf is perhaps one of the best, if not the best screens setter on HO teams right now. Its lead sets are the pinnacle of offensive based teams and gives an already strong archetype an improved handicap amongst some popular threats in the meta right now, more specifically the A ranked and above mons. Azelf provides more ample opportunities for set up sweepers to accomplish their jobs either through the use of stall breaking through Taunt, screens, or through the use of SR setting and Explosion to heavily damage or eliminate a key threat. Definitely a B rank viable mon if we're considering the support role it plays.

Rhyperior B- > B
Going to agree with what everyone has been saying about Rhyperior. This thing is a defensive monster and for the most part counters bird spam single handedly. On top of the fact it handles birdspam, its defensive presence allows it to tank even super effective hits like a champ in combination with Solid Rock and has the offensive power to hit back. Non Will-O-Wisp ZardX straight up loses to this thing, Pinsir needs to be at +2 to really have any sort of relevant chance, Talonflame and Staraptor just loses automatically (barring the lure Natural gift Tflame), laughs at most physical hits, even some super effective ones. The only support it generally needs is Wish support and the more harder hitting special attackers out of the way. Not too difficult to fit on a team and in terms of ranking its viability is equal to that the B ranked mons already there.
Bronzong C > C+
Bronzong is underrated in the fact that it's more relevant than most of the C+ ranked mons but not so much the B- ones. Bronzong has the ability to check a plethora of relevant threats such as M-Gard, Garchomp, Lando-T, Lando-Is not running Knock Off, Magnezone to a degree, Mamoswine, and the list kind of keeps going. This is all accomplished with the Gyro Ball, Earthquake, Hp Ice, Stealth Rock set alone. It's a fantastic component to stall teams that need an answer or support to handle these threats and pairs well with support mons that help it further such as Alomomola, Clefable, M-Ampharos, etc. It should move up.
Empoleon C- > C
Pretty much been stated by other, Empoleon walls a handful of relevant threats to the tier. With this said, it's a solid Defog user while accomplishing its goal of clearing hazards and pivoting into what it walls at the same time. Needs Wish support and that's about it. Not too hard to build around, solid offensive and defensive synergy to boot. C rank sounds good for this
Tornadus C- -> D/Unranked
I don't even understand why this is ranked in the first place but I'm being nice cause I guess it has some options to run decent stuff. It doesn't change the fact that in OU it's just outclassed as a whole and Torn-T is like x20 better in terms of viability. It has a bunch of stuff for Prankster that it can't even utilize well or is just a waste when others can pull off the role better.

Venomoth C- > D/Unranked
I get it, quiver passing. What teams are really using this specific mon for that role though? Even BP teams don't use this now a days cause they have way better stuff to be using. It's not so much viable as it is the fact you're for the most part putting yourself in a 5vs6 match by using this thing in the current OU environment.

That's basically it.
 
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AM145 The only thing I disagree on is Tornadus. Tornadus is stronger than burd and has access to Prankster Taunt and Tailwind, which is enough to stay in C-

The power may seem irrelevant but backed up by Specs and considering Flying is an amazing offensive typing on its own, Tornadus can still threaten Pokemon Tornadus-T can't. Slowbro can come in on AV Tornadus-T and just status it then it wins. Slowbro is easily 2HKOed by Tornadus-I.

Off the top of my head the only things the Speed matters for are Starmie (AV Torn-T can't OHKO this but Starmie can't OHKO either) and Thundurus (TWaves you anyway) so the Speed isn't that big of a deal. Regen is, but Prankster isn't a bad ability on its own. While it's no Nasty Plot TWave Thundurus, Tailwind is an excellent move on its own (yes, this is even usable on Specs)

Tornadus deserves to stay in C-, possibly even C
 
AIIIIIIIGHT do NOT talk shit bout Wobbuffet, Wobb is the tits. Encore is excellent, even when spamming T-Waves, cuz you know what else Wobb learns? Fuckin SAFEGUARD, which is kind of a big part of using encore in the first place. Also sayin it's voltturn's bitch is not remotely true... Unless you have a ghost or dark those voltturns are gonna bite you in the ass. Comparing it to Goth is a terrible example, if we're talking bout talkin bout voltturn bait there's the best example out there. Wobb can handle some of the strongest nukes in the tier, and while it is a textbook example of a niche mon, no other mon can fill the same role as Wobb, and what Wobbuffet does it does damn well. Wobbuffet dropping is crazy talk man
 

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Agreeing with Jirachi moving up, it's really good right now and basically the premier MGarde counter. It also deals with other stuff like Latis, non-Dark Pulse Greninja and Clefable quite well. Pretty versatile mon too, can run a SpD or Scarf set and even an incredibly annoying SubToxic set. Most good modern stalls I've seen run Jirachi, which is definitely a sign of how good it is.

I think Celebi might be worth moving up too. I've used it recently and I've been really impressed by the amount of stuff it deals with. Aside from your obvious Keldeo and Landorus, it can, depending on the investment and moves it carries, deal with Azumarill, Thundurus, MGyara, Excadrill, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Suicune, Manaphy, Hippowdon and more, as well as being a complete hard counter to Rotom-W and Breloom bar Signal Beam/SpD Poison Heal Bulk Up sets (and even then, Celebi does very well against those too). When it comes to the range of threats it walls, it's very much like Ferrothorn, and although it does suffer a lot of competition from it, it has some noticeable perks over it such as countering Landorus and Keldeo, reliable recovery, Heal Bell (this is especially relevant since Heal Bell users are valuable and hard to find), and Baton Pass+Nasty Plot which can enable a teammate to pull of a sweep. Another great thing is how customizable it is. You can run physically defensive, specially defensive, even offensive. I personally run a mixed defensive spread of 252 HP/48 Def/188 SpD/20 Speed Bold which lets it deal with threats from both side of the spectrum pretty well. It isn't even Pursuit Bait thanks to Baton Pass which is actually quite easy to fit on the SpD set. Really, the fact that it's able to deal with every S rank bar XZard makes it at least a B+ threat IMO.

Can't say much about Wobuffet besides from the fact that it screws me over literally every single time I face it. I've never actually used it, but by all accounts, this thing is one of the single best ways to completely stop choice mons in their tracks, and is even a decently reliable anwser to stuff like Greninja and Azumarill. Oh and even if you don't carry 4 attacking moves, Encore stops it from being setup fodder and can give free turns to a lot of stuff. If anything it should go up, though I guess it is very hard to actually fit on teams.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Someone said that Mega Gardy should move up, and here's what I have to say about that.

No.

It has pitiful bulk, very limited switch-in opportunities, and really hates the fact that Sand Offense is popular right now. It's not on the same level as Mega Heracross, who has actual bulk and actually beats Sand Offense.

On a related note, I think it's time for Zard Y to drop. It rose up thanks to its defensive set who's claim to fame was dealing with Mega Mawile, who's now in Uberland.
 
Just wondering, how come Haxorus is C-? I was under the impression that like Salamence, he had little to no niche due to beings overshadowed by CharX and Dragonite.
 

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Just wondering, how come Haxorus is C-? I was under the impression that like Salamence, he had little to no niche due to beings overshadowed by CharX and Dragonite.
I'm pretty sure that it's main niche relies in Mold Breaker, and while outclassed somewhat as a Mold Breaking DDer by Mega Gyara, it is one of the few pokemon, if not only pokemon with Dragon STAB + Mold breaker, making it ridiculously dangerous for stall and defensive teams, as Quagsire and Clefable can't counter it after a DD, and massive attack really helps keep it going vs stall even then.

Like casectiv said, with Mag support, it can simply rip through stall and defensive teams, warranting a C- because no other Dragon dancer can accomplish that as easy.
 
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