Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[alexwolf]

Magneton is being very overrated. Most of the time, Magnezone's main role for my team is not Steel trapping. Because face it, it isn't trapping SS Skarm really so the only thing it's trapping is Ferrothorn, and that's not enough reason to use it on a team. Magnezone has awesome defensive capabilities for a team, including checking birds, checking Latis, and in general this thing can tank at least a hit from a bunch of things, like Greninja, Thundurus besides Focus Blast, Azumarill, Bisharp's Sucker Punch, you get the point. Magnezone has good 70/115/90 defenses to make this happen, but Magneton is frail with 50/95/70 defenses. It's weaker, too. The only real plus of it is outspeeding Greninja and a handful of uncommon Pokemon above Thundurus's Speed. But these don't make it good. The person who posted about this used the wrong reasons, but I wholeheartedly support dropping it down a rank or so.

Outspeeding Greninja is huge for offensive teams. Outspeeding any Starmie is also great, to prevent it from ever getting a chance of spinning. Also, Magneton outspeeds both +1 Dragonite and +1 Mega Gyarados, and is able to do respectable damage to them or OHKO them in Mega Gyarados case with ~30% previous damage. And there is also Tornadus-T. That's a whole bunch of important Pokemon that offensive teams are not fond of facing. And you are overrating Magnezone's ability to switch into stuff. It can check Pokemon such as Thundurus, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir once (i mean switch into them, it can beat them 1 v 1 more than one times), but Latios, Azumarill, and Greninja? Hell no. Latios can just scout for Flash Cannon while healing with Roost, AV Azumarill easily 2HKOes with Waterfall, or 3HKOes with Play Rough + Waterfall + Aqua Jet, while taking a Thunderbolt easily, and Greninja is better dealt by Magneton anyway. In general, most of the Pokemon Magnezone checks, Magneton does too, just slightly worse, which is more than made up for for the ability to handle the aforementioned threats in some teams. It's a really subjective matter i guess, as it depends on how viable you think Scarf Magneton is in comparison with Scarf Magnezone, but i believe that just checking an S rank threat that Magnezone can't and is in general very troubling for offensive teams to face is enough to keep Magneton in C+.

EDIT: Oh and Jolly Talonflame, rly freaking important. Definitely C+.

 

[Vert]

Want to share some thoughts:

| A+ → S | It is easily the best 'mon in the metagame right now. Amazing movepool ranging from Roost to even Memento which allows the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame set up (i.e. Mega Charizard X, Hawlucha, BD Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, to an extent Crawdaunt etc.) It hits like a truck with Draco Meteor and checks an enormous amount of threatening things, most notably Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo. Psyshock has really good coverage and it means Chansey is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and very little prior damage. It is a threat to all playstyles and can be slapped on to every team whether it is for Defog, fire power, luring, etc. Speaking of luring, Latios is one of the best lures in the game. If you need something like Heatran to die, you can Draco Meteoras they come in, switch out pretending you don't have EQ as they scout with Protect, and the next time Heatran decides to come in, you can Earthquake them to death because they obviously won't Protect twice (step 2 won't even be needed since you can kill it right away if its on an Offensive team - just applying to stall). Volcarona, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, etc all become unstoppable sweepers with Heatran gone and its all because Latios is a great lure. Hidden Power [Fire] lure is nice for sweepers like Mega Gyarados who hate Ferrothorn and deals with it just as reliably as Magnezone. If Defog is not used, Roost allows Latios to stay healthy through out the match. It faces problems with Tyranitar and Bisharp, but it has so many factors going for it. I didn't even mention how good the Choice Scarf set is with all these super fast 'mons like Greninja around and a surprise revenge kill gets to them fast. Easily S+ Rank, the best 'mon currently in XY.

| A → A+ | Why use Gengar? Typing, power, utility, ability to check threats like Breloom, but seriously, is that frailty really worth it? Gengar is one of the most dangerous creatures to face in OU. Despite its frailty, it has an immunity to 3 types: Fighting-, Normal-, and Ground-type along with being a nifty Toxic absorber. A Gengar in the team preview is the same as a Doublade because it pressures Mega Medicham to not HJK, which is one of the most annoying things for HO team to face. Will-O-Wisp | Focus Blast | Substitute | Shadow Ball is a set that strikes fear into players using the common balance + HO team archetype. It can get Substitute up easily which garuntees at least 1-2 kills when used correctly. It wears down many bulky Water-types sweepers like Mega Charizard X would kill for. It sits at a really good speed tier as well with its excellent movepool. Gengar is getting better every moment and is being underprepared for. Agreeing with alexwolf, so read his post because I am listing some of the stuff he didn't mention.

| A- → B+ | Mega Alakazam provides little defensive value to a team unlike Mega Aerodactyl which checks BirdSPAM, and Mega Manectric which has Intimidate and providing momentum via Volt Switch. Add that to the fact that it needs to come in after something has died (which is already a huge oppurtunity cost), and even after coming in, bulky 'mons like AV Azumarill, priority users, or Thundurus-I forcing it out makes it much harder to use than Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric which are better in their own ways. What does this thing do? It checks Rain I guess, (pls no sand discussion all good teams have a way to deal with Excadrill), has speed? When I use stall teams, I find Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric are much more threatening, but Mega Alakazam is not on par with other A- 'mons. As McMeghan mentioned, it is U-turn weak which really sucks. Yes, I agreed with it being an A- rank 'mon 1 month ago, but realizing these flaws, I don't think it should A- anymore.

also agreeing with the following

empoleon to b-
hawlucha to b+
quagsire to c+
rachi + celebi to a- (mentioned a long time back)

 

[Flamer]

Since when are we ranking mons based on usage, especially ladder usage? If we were doing that, mons like Lando-I and Manaphy (at the beginning of the meta) would be C on this thread, while mons like Espeon and Forretress would be A-. This thread is not designed to rank mons based on their usage, they're ranked on their viability. If viable mons happens to get low usage, thats the trend atm, people haven't realised because 90% of the time the ladder will stick with what they know rather than innovating. If something wants to raise or drop, it wont be because people are using it more (although this can have an effect on the popularity of its counters, thereby lowering its viability). I know sometimes a mons usage can indicate its viability (Like thundurus-I losing usage) but that is by no means a way of making an argument unless you have clear evidence other than "Have you even seen this on the ladder? It must be shit".

 

[Alfalfa]

I nominate Tornadus-I to D Rank. Rain teams suffer significant opportunity cost by using Torn-I over Torn-T, who has Regenerator and is thus harder to wear down. Torn-I only has the niche of Prankster Rain Dance and a stronger Hurricane, but most rain teams only need Politoed or a suicide rain setter (for offensive teams). As a result, Torn-I really does not have a notable niche that keeps it in line with most C- mons, like Slowking, Gourgeist-S, and Ludicolo, whose niches are more apparent than Torn-I's. Tornadus-I for D Rank.

 

[Destiny Device]

We are not. It's well-known that usage simply doesn't mean anything in viability (see: DPP Electivire). Usage can, at best, be used as a side argument. Not as a main one.
So this isn't a completely useless post, I'll back up Tornadus for D. It simply isn't good. Prankster Rain Dance just won't cut it, and while Hurricane is nice and all, I don't feel like it is on par with the rest of C-rank. Plus, Rain already got a couple of options anyway, and Tornadus just leaves you weaker to Thundurus.

 

[Ununhexium]

We are not. It's well-known that usage simply doesn't mean anything in viability (see: DPP Electivire). Usage can, at best, be used as a side argument. Not as a main one.
So this isn't a completely useless post, I'll back up Tornadus for D. It simply isn't good. Prankster Rain Dance just won't cut it, and while Hurricane is nice and all, I don't feel like it is on par with the rest of C-rank. Plus, Rain already got a couple of options anyway, and Tornadus just leaves you weaker to Thundurus.

If there are this many cons to using it then why list it at all? Yes, it has a niche, and while it may justify its use in OU, there is no reason why anybody would use it on a serious ream.

 

[Celticpride]

If I'm using a rain team in OU, I would much rather use Azelf as a second setter and have access to Torn-T than use Torn-I and another mon. Azelf outspeeds enough stuff that not having Prankster is mostly irrelevant (and Azelf can also jam screens, rocks, Taunt or Knock Off in there as well). I would almost say move Torn-I to unranked, but D is fine for now.

 

[RotomPoison]

AM145 The only thing I disagree on is Tornadus. Tornadus is stronger than burd and has access to Prankster Taunt and Tailwind, which is enough to stay in C-

The power may seem irrelevant but backed up by Specs and considering Flying is an amazing offensive typing on its own, Tornadus can still threaten Pokemon Tornadus-T can't. Slowbro can come in on AV Tornadus-T and just status it then it wins. Slowbro is easily 2HKOed by Tornadus-I.

Off the top of my head the only things the Speed matters for are Starmie (AV Torn-T can't OHKO this but Starmie can't OHKO either) and Thundurus (TWaves you anyway) so the Speed isn't that big of a deal. Regen is, but Prankster isn't a bad ability on its own. While it's no Nasty Plot TWave Thundurus, Tailwind is an excellent move on its own (yes, this is even usable on Specs)

Tornadus deserves to stay in C-, possibly even C

Reposting because relevant ^

I nominate Tornadus-I to D Rank. Rain teams suffer significant opportunity cost by using Torn-I over Torn-T, who has Regenerator and is thus harder to wear down. Torn-I only has the niche of Prankster Rain Dance and a stronger Hurricane, but most rain teams only need Politoed or a suicide rain setter (for offensive teams). As a result, Torn-I really does not have a notable niche that keeps it in line with most C- mons, like Slowking, Gourgeist-S, and Ludicolo, whose niches are more apparent than Torn-I's. Tornadus-I for D Rank.

Stop thinking about Rain already because that's not what Tornadus is supposed to do, I don't care what the analysis says, it's best at using Tailwind. Yeah it /can/ use Rain Dance but then you need to use it over Taunt which is kind of dumb so don't bother. "No usable niche" is just wrong because Tailwind is a much better move than people give it credit for? CB Kyurem-B + Tailwind was amazing in early BW2 simply because Tailwind is an underrated move in general and viable teams can be made around it. Tailwind + Taunt is the main reason to use Tornadus, not Rain Dance, so don't say Azelf outclasses it.

If there are this many cons to using it then why list it at all? Yes, it has a niche, and while it may justify its use in OU, there is no reason why anybody would use it on a serious ream.

Because it obviously does. I would use it on a serious team and I have before for the same reason, and if garbage mons like Granbull (who is 100% outclassed by Doublade and should go away too) are ranked Tornadus should be a lot higher, in C, it should never drop or be unranked because what it does can't be replcaed.

If I'm using a rain team in OU, I would much rather use Azelf as a second setter and have access to Torn-T than use Torn-I and another mon. Azelf outspeeds enough stuff that not having Prankster is mostly irrelevant (and Azelf can also jam screens, rocks, Taunt or Knock Off in there as well). I would almost say move Torn-I to unranked, but D is fine for now.

Azelf is only a lead, so it shouldn't be compared to Tornadus, ever, Tornadus should be setting up Tailwind mid game to let a wallbreaker do their job. It should never be unranked.

Please stop asking for it to drop, it never should unless Tailwind suddenly becomes bad (and before you say "well it is bad" then try it, because those few turns, depending on the wallbreaker you use, can easily mean 2-3 dead Pokemon on the opposing team.) I wouldn't mind posting a Tornadus team here for anyone to try, if they want

 

[Holy Dom]

---> A-

I'll show you why he doesn't deserve the A rank:

• The Dragon Dance user is outclassed by Charizard Mega X by some stats and by the typing
• Loses easily its nice bulkyness with Rocks and status while Charizard X doesn't
• Has 80 base speed , easily outspeedable
• Really weak to ice (4x) also with Multiscale
• Band Dragonite can create advantage to Statuppers
• Has a lot of threats in the OU metagame

These are some of his flaws , and these flaws doesn't make him ideal for A rank.

- It's always been outclassed by Zard X as a Dragon Dancer, that's no reason for it to drop now because of that, it arguably got better after the Aegi & Mawile bans. Plus Mandi and Skarm are dropping in usage, which benefits it quite a bit.

- It still has solid bulk without Multiscale, and it's actually less vulnerable to status than Zard X since the DD set carries Lum a vast majority of the time.

- It has DD and a +2 priority move.. And isn't Gyara only Base 81 speed..?

- Lando-I was S-Rank for the longest with its 4x Ice Weakness. And Zard Y & M-Pinsir were S-Rank before when they both have a 4x weakness to Rock. Mamo was known as the Dragon slayer for a reason anyways. And the only other mons I can think of that's running an Ice move is Gren, which gets savaged by Banded ESpeed, and practically any move from DDNite if its already at +1, and fast electrics like Thund, Megaman, and Raikou, all of which can't OHKO of Multiscale is in tact, and get clapped by an Outrage by DDNite or lose half of their HP or more to a Band ESpeed.

- The same goes for literally any other Choiced mon. Keld locked into Secret Sword is setup fodder for Clef. If it's locked into Scald then it's setup fodder for CroCune. Scarf Lando-T locked into Knock Off is free setup for M-Gyara & Zard X. If it's locked into EQ then Double Dance Lando-T, Zard X if it isn't M-Evo'd, Regular Gyara/M-Gyara before it M-Evos. I could go on but you get the point.

It's actually ironic that you mention this as a negative towards BandNite when its priority ESpeed is clutch af against speed boosters, and mons like Talon & M-Pinsir, plus it has a relatively free 4th moveslot, since it doesn't HAVE to run Fire Punch, to take on/bait in whatever gives your team problems.

- That's super vague, but Keldeo is S-Rank but it has a lot of soft/hard checks or counters like Celebi, Lati@s, Slowbro/Slowking, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Sp. Def Gyarados, Chesnaught, Suicune, Mantine, Jellicent, etc. Same with Latios which seems like it will be S-Rank soon. Having a handful of checks doesn't mean much.

It means that he doesn't do enough synergy with high ranked pokemons in OU.

While DNite is no longer the greatest of a wincon on its own, it forms a pretty solid DD Core with Zard X (M-Gyara too) since it can weaken Azu, Lando-T, and some fat mons enough that they can't check Zard or Gyara efficiently late game if you can keep pressuring them. It also can take on Thund and get rid of its priority T-Wave, and fares decently well against Sand Rush Exca.

It's fine at A. Nothing in the meta changed much for it to drop.

 

[Alfalfa]

- It's always been outclassed by Zard X as a Dragon Dancer, that's no reason for it to drop now because of that, it arguably got better after the Aegi & Mawile bans. Plus Mandi and Skarm are dropping in usage, which benefits it quite a bit.

- It still has solid bulk without Multiscale, and it's actually less vulnerable to status than Zard X since the DD set carries Lum a vast majority of the time.

- It has DD and a +2 priority move.. And isn't Gyara only Base 81 speed..?

- Lando-I was S-Rank for the longest with its 4x Ice Weakness. And Zard Y & M-Pinsir were S-Rank before when they both have a 4x weakness to Rock. Mamo was known as the Dragon slayer for a reason anyways. And the only other mons I can think of that's running an Ice move is Gren, which gets savaged by Banded ESpeed, and practically any move from DDNite if its already at +1, and fast electrics like Thund, Megaman, and Raikou, all of which can't OHKO of Multiscale is in tact, and get clapped by an Outrage by DDNite or lose half of their HP or more to a Band ESpeed.

- The same goes for literally any other Choiced mon. Keld locked into Secret Sword is setup fodder for Clef. If it's locked into Scald then it's setup fodder for CroCune. Scarf Lando-T locked into Knock Off is free setup for M-Gyara & Zard X. If it's locked into EQ then Double Dance Lando-T, Zard X if it isn't M-Evo'd, Regular Gyara/M-Gyara before it M-Evos. I could go on but you get the point.

It's actually ironic that you mention this as a negative towards BandNite when its priority ESpeed is clutch af against speed boosters, and mons like Talon & M-Pinsir, plus it has a relatively free 4th moveslot, since it doesn't HAVE to run Fire Punch, to take on/bait in whatever gives your team problems.

- That's super vague, but Keldeo is S-Rank but it has a lot of soft/hard checks or counters like Celebi, Lati@s, Slowbro/Slowking, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Sp. Def Gyarados, Chesnaught, Suicune, Mantine, Jellicent, etc. Same with Latios which seems like it will be S-Rank soon. Having a handful of checks doesn't mean much.



While DNite is no longer the greatest of a wincon on its own, it forms a pretty solid DD Core with Zard X (M-Gyara too) since it can weaken Azu, Lando-T, and some fat mons enough that they can't check Zard or Gyara efficiently late game if you can keep pressuring them. It also can take on Thund and get rid of its priority T-Wave, and fares decently well against Sand Rush Exca.

It's fine at A. Nothing in the meta changed much for it to drop.

Actually, Dragonite has access to Multiscale + ExtremeSpeed, which Zard X does not have. Chesnaught does not counter Keldeo, it hates Scald and does not want to switch into it whatsoever.

 

[Srn]

Aight gonna go a bit off topic to show off a little fren

Gourgeist-Small for C+
This thing is seriously better than I thought it would be, and quite frankly, I thought it would be good but hot damn its annoying as all shit. Grass/Ghost gives you some solid defensive typing to work with and you can come in on a lot of random attacks, like anything scarf lando-t does bar u-turn or most of what keldeo does bar specs hydro. When it does come in, it can threaten so much out with a potential burn. Its by far the best sub-seeder in the tier and that comes with the additional bonus of being able to spin block excadrill, which nothing else in pokemon can even do bar arceus-ghost and defensive dusclops.
But really that's just the minor details. Let's get down to what actually makes gourgeist-small good. Its 99 base speed. This fast burn is incredibly potent, it lets you burn SO many things before they can attack.

Things Gourgest-Small can just burn

Scizor
Diggersby
MGyara
Tyranitar
Breloom
Azumarill
Bisharp
Dragonite
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Mega Heracross
Kyurem-Black
Mamoswine
Unevolved Pinsir
Crawdaunt
Adamant CB Staraptor
Adamant Mega medi
Toxicroak
Lucario
Landorus-T

That's a fucking beautiful list. Notice that some of these mons will just straight up OHKO you after you do burn them, but that's up to you: if you think it's worth it to sack gourgeist-s to burn a crucial threat to your team such as kyurem-b, then it's probably worth it. Hell, this is hardly even a flaw because you actually have the OPTION to do so! Not to mention that gourgeist-s is the last pokemon in the world that you want to give a free turn to, and many people don't realize that at first. Like seriously it may not take advantage of a free turn as well as other pokemon can strictly speaking but it is so fucking annoying once it gets up a sub, just like all and any sub seeders are.
Unfortunately gourgeist-s is set up fodder for any fire type and taunt bait in general, and its not THAT bulky, so it should probably never rise above B but for now lets take it in baby steps and go C+ :]
HERE is a match where the pumpkin's speed kinda saved my ass against a late game mgyara. (Turn 60~)

Reposting cuz even tho i'm a few pages late i'm highly upset that y'all would think about deranking muh fren.
more replays~
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-169295799
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-169604778

I hope these replays can show that on the right kind of team gourgeist-small is seriously stupidly annoying to deal with. Its speed puts it faster than every status user bar talon so it can get a sub up safely, and low base hp means that it gets back a lot from leech seed. It's excellent at spreading passive damage and being a general pain in the ass and can also check some major threats itself, like countering breloom, excadrill, and diggersby and checking a bunch of other shit like lando-t and azu; along with burning the entire list of mons in the original post I stated. It's not something to be looked down upon just cuz nobody uses it.

 

[Punchshroom]

I get that SubSeeding SmallGeist can be wicked fun to use, but the meta has gotten even harsher for it than when Aegislash left. Magic Guard Clefable and MegaVoir smash it to pieces, Gliscor has gotten more common, it's fairly vulnerable to every single Fire-type in the tier, it's large Taunt and Substitute bait, and its weaknesses are extremely crippling. Even SmallGeist's advantage of spinblocking Excadrill has weakened due to Starmie usage rising, and SmallGeist loses to both bulky Reflect Type Starmie as well as offensive Ice Beam Starmie.

 

[Lum_Beri]

Getting back to Tornadus, I also support keeping Tornadus in C-. As RotomPoison said, Tornadus is good as more than just a rain slave. While it works well on a rain team, being able to absolutely rub its clitoris upon anything that doesn't resist Hurricane, it does have its niche in OU as a Taunt/Tailwind user, albeit a small one. Tailwind fits better on Talonflame, and there are definitely some superior Taunt users (e.g., Klefki, Mew). It's niche is small, but it combines a couple of things that other 'mons are good at into one 'mon.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

This is basically what Tornadus-I is. It has its niche, but is usually outclassed except in very specific scenarios.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Tornadus fits on more than just "select teams." It does not "fail at doing anything more than [its specific task]. While it is generally outclassed, it is not just a watered-down version of some other 'mon the way Phione is just a shitty Manaphy.

 

[Dallaren]

After watching this thread for a while, I thought I would finally share some of my thoughts on the recent viability ranks.

1.

Venusaur -Mega - A+ -> A :

My reasons for Venusaur being shifted down are that a lot of threats which were scarce during Aegi meta pose serious problems to it, namely psychic types such as Latios/mega-garde/mega-cham, powerhouses such as Heracross/Zard-x/Zard-y, and relevant flying types like Pinsir/Talon. Some mons used to run coverage for Venu as well such as Greninja but due to the rise of spikes gren and dark pulse this has decreased. However, the threat of that option being used still remains. The rise of Heatran is also a problem for Venu since EQ is rarely ever run, defensive variants may run leech seed however Tran still gets free rocks and can burn it. Venusaur is also, as everyone is aware, easier to chip down via scald burns, sand, and hazards. Venusaur should be moved down to A rank because it isn't the wall it used to be and a lot of the relevant meta threatens it.

2.

Hippowdon - A- -> B/B+ :

I feel Hippowdon's viability ranking is a little outdated. It was used a lot during Aegi meta when Thundurus / Aegislash were prevalent because it walled these. However, in today's meta it can't counter the hard hitting mons, such as the aforementioned powerhouse megas, like it used to. Thundurus' usage has fallen since then and Aegislash as you all know got banned. Hippowdon also has a tough time threatening out most mons. Water types such as Azu/Keldeo/Greninja/Slowbro becoming more common doesn't help its case either.

3.

Rotom-W - A -> A- :


Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by everything offensive of note in this meta, such as Keldeo/Greninja etc. Its just not the physical wall it used to be and tends to lose to all the dominant megas such Mega-Medi/Garde/Hera/Manectric. Rotom is also easy to wear down due to lack of recovery and the unreliability of pain split. Latis have also become more common, and Rotom-W gives them a free switchin.Rotom-W however still works as a bird spam check (namely Talon, since it needs to stay relatively healthy to check Pinsir, as it can run Close Combat, dealing upwards of 80% to Rotom-W) as well as Lando-t and sandrush Excadrill.

4.

Dragonite - A -> A- :

Dragonite doesnt seem to fare very well against the meta resulting in lesser usage. Dragonite in general has a hard time vs Bulky offense because of mons like Clefable/Gliscor/Slowbro which is what a lot of the meta has shifted towards. More offensive teams also have solid checks in Mega Scizor ( depending on coverage), Land-T, and Azumarill. Outrage also locks Dragonite into that move, allowing even HO teams the chance to revenge kill it a long with other scarf mons that can revenge the DD set. The bulky dnite better known as CBB nite has also vanished.

5.

Bisharp - A - > A+ :

Due to the rise of Psychic types Bisharp can have a field day with some teams. The increasing popularity of Intimidators such as Land-T/Mega-Manectric has also enhanced it's sweeping capabilities. Since people aren't preparing for it like they used to, SD sets put in a lot of work. There are just a lot of Bisharp weak teams in this meta.

I was also wondering why Mega - Hera is A+ but Garde isnt :o

I also have some qualms with some of the S rank mons, but i'll save that for another post.

 

[Punchshroom]

I was also wondering why Mega - Hera is A+ but Garde isnt :o

Mega Hera is A+ because it boasts defensive utility alongside its monstrous offensive presence (like Mega Charizard Y); Mega Hera's good bulk + resistances to Ground and Dark make it a good Scarf Lando-T switch-in as well as Bisharp and Excadrill check, not to mention a good Knock Off absorber in general, which offensive teams absolutely love. MegaVoir's defensive utility is not as good (Latios can nearly 2HKO with LO Psyshock after SR XP), essentially the same reason Mega Medicham isn't higher either.

 

[Albacore]

Really don't agree with MVenu dropping. Been using it recently as glue on Offense and it's still fantastic, checking tons of stuff that can be otherwise just really though for offense to have to deal with, namely Azumarill (this is really important since actual Azu answers on Offense are really scarce, and MVenu walls it completely and utterly), Keldeo, Thundurus, Lando-T, MManectric, Excadrill and also checks non-ESens Greninja decently (and ESens is finding itself rarer and rarer on Greninjas). This is particularly valuable considering these Pokemon's abilities to make offensive teams cry. It's also far from passive and can be a bitch to switch into (incidentally I've been trying out a mixed offensive set with Knock Off on a Zone Team to bop Latis and Gengar who like to switch in as well as cripple Lando-I) MHera and YZard are problems, sure, but MGarde, Medi, MPinsir, and even Lando-I don't really switch in on it for free given that they all take from 50 to 70% from Sludge Bomb. Yeah, you do kinda want a Mega Wallbreaker over it a lot of the time, but putting MVenu on your team gives you so much freedom because you literally just cover half the meta right there. It's just really, really solid offensive glue that pretty much always pulls its weight (it even has the ability to case a lot of pain for Stall since Chansey is getting more and uncommon on that particular playstyle). If you look at MVenu as a wall then obviously it's not worth A+ because it doesn't really "wall" anything, but as an offensive glue and check to really dangerous stuff then it definitely deserves A+
(also the argument about how it's heavily crippled by weather isn't really true seeing as it beats the vast majority of your average rain/sand team on its own.)

Hippowdon should drop though. Don't really see it much and it's pretty obvious as to why : it's way too passive, doesn't really wall much, and gets pretty much wrecked by every mega wallbreaker. Particularly, it gives a completely free switch in to MHera (yeah I know TTar does too but it's nowhere near as bad in that regard). It's way too passive for this meta, if Chansey and Skarm dropped on those grounds than Hippowdon definitely should too.

DNite I also agree with. DD sweepers are just getting worse and worse and DNite is no exception. The band set is pretty scary though, but getting locked into either ESpeed and Outrage can be pretty problematic.

Bisharp I'm on the fence about. It's certainly very anti-meta with all the Psychic types flying around, and it's kinda ridiculous how many teams are weak to it, however it is ultimately pretty easy to abuse. Every fighting type in the tier, especially MHera, can put it in a really bad position. Wisp users also screw it over unless it runs Lum Berry, which is definitely a very legitimate option, but also loses out on power which is annoying. It's certainly gotten better recently, but I'm really not sure if it's comparable to the current A+ ranks especially given how good they are.

 

[Karxrida]

Agreeing with Bisharp going up, because it's fucking amazing and you guys should always use it in every team ever. I know I'm biased shut up.

I don't agree with Dragonite dropping. Banded is super easy to throw on a team due to not needing hazard removal as much as DDnite and can act as a revenge killer, Wallbreaker (make sure Fairies are dead before Outraging), or even a late game cleaner. It might not be the best at those roles, but it's good enough to warrant A for doing it all adequately in one set.

 

[alexwolf]

I nominate Tornadus-I to D Rank. Rain teams suffer significant opportunity cost by using Torn-I over Torn-T, who has Regenerator and is thus harder to wear down. Torn-I only has the niche of Prankster Rain Dance and a stronger Hurricane, but most rain teams only need Politoed or a suicide rain setter (for offensive teams). As a result, Torn-I really does not have a notable niche that keeps it in line with most C- mons, like Slowking, Gourgeist-S, and Ludicolo, whose niches are more apparent than Torn-I's. Tornadus-I for D Rank.

Tornadus has also more power, which allows it to get more OHKOes and 2HKOes that Tornadus can't. Here are some examples:

• 20 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 250-296 (82.7 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 236 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 200-238 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 20 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 247-291 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Knock Off + Superpower is a 2HKO after SR)
• 236 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 302-356 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 236 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 20 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 174-205 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and Hurricane does 48% minimum
• 20 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 283-335 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (gave Superpower 100 BP to account for the Atk drop in the second turn)

Tornadus is can't be walled by common bulky Pokemon such as Clefable and Mew, making it a much more effective early-game wallbreaker. After getting a KO, Tornadus can just use a Tailwind before going down, letting hard hitters such as Mega Heracross, Toxicroak, and Mega Ampharos break down the opposing teams some more, so that Swift Swimmers have no trouble cleaning up.

Also, the lack of Regenerator hardly matters in rain HO, where you don't want to be switching in and out a lot anyway, so it's preferred to have a hard hitter able to do as much damage as possible, and when going down, is able to provide a clutch Tailwind to either let your hard hitters do more damage early-game, or save you from dangerous sweepers. The biggest con is the lower Speed, but Tornadus's extra power and priority Tailwind definitely make it worthy of C- rank. Every time people suggest Tornadus to drop, it's for the same unfounded arguments, it's like nobody bothers using him before making a case about it.

I get that SubSeeding SmallGeist can be wicked fun to use, but the meta has gotten even harsher for it than when Aegislash left. Magic Guard Clefable and MegaVoir smash it to pieces, Gliscor has gotten more common, it's fairly vulnerable to every single Fire-type in the tier, it's large Taunt and Substitute bait, and its weaknesses are extremely crippling. Even SmallGeist's advantage of spinblocking Excadrill has weakened due to Starmie usage rising, and SmallGeist loses to both bulky Reflect Type Starmie as well as offensive Ice Beam Starmie.

RestTalk Gourgeist spinblocks bulky Starmie handily btw. WoW + Leech Seed / Seed Bomb is good enough for two attacks. With some SpD investment you can even act as a solid Keldeo check.

 

[Punchshroom]

RestTalk Gourgeist spinblocks bulky Starmie handily btw. WoW + Leech Seed / Seed Bomb is good enough for two attacks. With some SpD investment you can even act as a solid Keldeo check.

I was talking about Small-Gourgeist, which needs to maintain its speed advantage over Excadrill or be outclassed by SuperGeist, and it won't be able to fend off Starmie and Keldeo while doing so. RestTalk is more geared towards Super-Geist anyway. SmallGeist is pretty much just used for SubSeeding and soft-checking Excadrill; otherwise just go for SuperGeist.

 

[alexwolf]

I was talking about Small-Gourgeist, which needs to maintain its speed advantage over Excadrill or be outclassed by SuperGeist, and it won't be able to fend off Starmie and Keldeo while doing so. RestTalk is more geared towards Super-Geist anyway. SmallGeist is pretty much just used for SubSeeding and soft-checking Excadrill; otherwise just go for SuperGeist.

Oh sorry, i didn't notice this.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

About the suggestion that I made, I will change some:

Dropping Granbull being out of the ranking. The type that Fairy counters are mainly hpysical and there's almost no physically defensive pokemon of Fairy type available in OU (not even Clefable).

I still sugeesting dropping Magneton, but simply to C rank.

The rise of Metagross and meloetta shoud only be to D rank for now. whilr ofagrigus should rise to only C- rank.

I will enter the territory of high ranks.

S rank:
I think that greninja should drop to A+ rank. Very effecitve, one of the best A+ rank, but very frail and (to differentiate to possible Deoxys-A similarities) only 103 Special Attack and can't afford to run Modest nature.

I could accept Thundurus going to A+ rank for the same reason than Greninja although I have a lot of more doubts.

Azumarill, Keldeo and Charizard-X is staying in S rank.

A+ rank:
Even though Landorus-T is 1st,it shouldn't raise to S rank.

Latios should raise to S rank. It's a monster with very few counters, and with HP Fight even his two main checks aren't safe anymore. Also, is very unpredictable: 3 Attacks + Defog, 3 Attacks + Roost/Recover, Chocie Specs, Choice Scarf, CM + 3 Attacks, Memento + Screens, 2 Attacks + Defog + Roost/Recover and the massive lure DD set.

Latias shouldn't rise to S rank. It's in general outclassed by Latios except in healing Wish role and in a specially defensive role.

Also, both of them lack a LOT of sets.

No changes in the rest of the rank.

A rank:
Garchomp should return to A+ rank. It's a very powerful physical Pokemon that even though has checks, he has almost no counters. Also, this pokemon has a lot of effective sets, like Choice Scarf, Lead Stealth Rock, SR + 3 Attacks with leftovers, SD + 3 Attacks, SD + Sub/SR + STAB, a more defensive sets and even ChainChomp in cases where you have already a Mega.

Gardevoir should rise to A+ rank. Even though this thing is almsot Koed by some physical moves, it's Hyper Voice is so threatening and many Pokemon can't use his STAB or they could be slower and e threathen by Will-o-Wisp (which is the better 4th slot right now). also, his Special bulk is rather decent and his weakness aren'0t common at all.

A- rank: Magnezone should rise to A. 21st position is a indicative of threatening and I think that Magnezone is very threatening to any Steel type in the metagame. The majority o Steel are having less use sorely because Magnezone exists. Also, Magnezone is a decent Specs Users and it's not deadweight against many non Steel with great Defense, acceptrabole Special Defense and 12 resistances.

Hippowdon should drop to B+ rank. It's not that threaning anymore, stall teams aren'0t common anymore and has severe 4MSS, specially to hit flyers. Also, I think thast Gliscor is a better defensive ground right now and that Sandstorm damage may be detrimental to many teams.

B+ rank:
Raikou should rise to A- rank with Manectric. It can supply the role of Menectric in teams with another Mega, has enough niches over Manectric, it has decent bulk and Electric types are a good thing to have against the very common Azumarill, keldeo, Talonflame, Charizard-Y Mega Pinsir, Thudnurus, Rotom-W, etc.

Alomomola should drop to B- rank. Stall is declining and Alomomola works only in stall. It's so passive that almost any special attackers laughs in front of him. Not only that, ut unlike Chansey and Skarmory/Ferrothorn, it doesn't work as a standalone wall.

B rank:
Rhyperior should drop to B- rank. Many weakness in the tier, a lot of special attacker in the higher rank with supper effecitve moves and a slight declining of Talonflame are the causes of this drop.

Also, Omastar is 121st (27 points lower thsan the rest of B rank). It appears to be outclassed y Kabutops and Kingdra.

B- rank:
Azelf should rise to B rank: It's a very effective lead user that also has notable ofensive stats with a good special movepool.

Weavile should rise to rank. being one of the faster pokemon, eing a very fast Dark type in a metagemw tih more Psychics is a very good thing to have. Even more if you have the infamous Knock off in your disposal. It's frail, although his special bulk isn't that bad (it's comparable to Thundurus).

It's not silly that Wobbuffet could rose to B- rank. Less powerful Dark and Ghost attacks are a reason that can cause Wobbuffet to do what is supposed to do. Trap and revenge kill things.

Volcarona dn Thundurus-T could be in C* rank perfectly. Botht they're very threatening pokemon who had a very big flaw in the metagame (Volcarona, who has three counters in top OU) and Thundurus-T (Thundurus-I is superior in many roles).

 

[Srn]

Alomomola should drop to B- rank. Stall is declining and Alomomola works only in stall. It's so passive that almost any special attackers laughs in front of him. Not only that, ut unlike Chansey and Skarmory/Ferrothorn, it doesn't work as a standalone wall.

Js nothing on stall works as a standalone wall in the first place, that's why you use more than one mon on a stall team :OOO
Besides nothing passes wishes as well as alomomola does and with the rise of doublade stall there's no better support for doublade than this alomo.
should stay B

B rank:
Rhyperior should drop to B- rank. Many weakness in the tier, a lot of special attacker in the higher rank with supper effecitve moves and a slight declining of Talonflame are the causes of this drop.

Rhyperior should definitely stay B if not rise lol, its so useful. It counters char-x, dnite, and basically every relevant flyspam mon (bar CB raptor CC). On top of setting rocks and not being passive, this is a huge and important niche that no other pokemon in the tier can replicate; rhyperior should definitely stay B if not rise.

Also, Omastar is 121st (27 points lower thsan the rest of B rank). It appears to be outclassed y Kabutops and Kingdra.

Btw rain specs hydro from omastar 2hko's ferro and rain specs hydro from kingdra does not. That alone is enough reason for omastar to be B rank.

I still think keldeo should be A+ but I agree with everything else you've said basically.

 

[AM]

As far as Hippo goes I don't really mind seeing it drop considering some of its flaws but please don't over exaggerate the passiveness that it supposably presents. Hippo has the ability to fight back with Earthquake and Rock Slide against some threats like Thundurus-I, Weavile, Heatran, Bisharp, and the list kind of goes on depending on your spread of course. I'm honestly convinced some of you that suggested it to drop is going completely based off of usage and or have never actually used it well enough to justify its current ranking. If your logic is that things like M-Garde, M-Hera, and M-Cham screw it up then drop everything down a subrank because generally something is getting hit extremely hard by one of those. I agree to dropping it down due to the influx of offensive water types, rain offense, and the caliber of offensive teams as a whole which it can have issues keeping up with. Skarm and Chansey dropped cause those two are extremely passive. Hippo could generally drop from the trends that have taken place, not because of its "passiveness".

 

[Punchshroom]

Eievui-Nymphia

Mantine is listed 208 in the usage statistics
Magnezone should rise to A. 21st position is a indicative of threatening.
Also, Omastar is 121st (27 points lower thsan the rest of B rank).

Please stop using a Pokemon's "usage statistic" to determine viability; it has never been an accurate judge on how effective a Pokemon can be. By that logic Skarmory should have a higher ranking than Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross, and good Pokemon such as Jirachi and Starmie that are sitting in the 40-50s shouldn't be B+ @_@

I either agree or am indifferent to most of your suggestions, bar these few:

I think that greninja should drop to A+ rank. Very effecitve, one of the best A+ rank, but very frail and (to differentiate to possible Deoxys-A similarities) only 103 Special Attack and can't afford to run Modest nature.

You should be comparing Greninja with Deoxys-S (simply because we don't know what it's like to have Deo-A in OU, while we did experience Deo-S in OU), and iirc, Deo-S happened to be S Rank before its departure. It is fast enough to outspeed most offensive teams, and easily has the power and coverage to threaten the majority of Pokemon in OU (like Deo-S). It also can take advantage of its terrifying offensive presence with Spikes (like Deo-S), and has the tools and power necessary to keep them there as it is able to threaten / halt most anti-hazard users (like Deo-S). To sum it up, Greninja is not only unpredictable, but even if you manage to reveal its set it's not necessarily easier to deal with, which is part of what makes an S Rank threat. Of course Greninja is somewhat watered down compared to Deo-S in that it doesn't revenge kill Scarfers by itself @3@, but otherwise it has its place in S Rank.

Gardevoir should rise to A+ rank. Even though this thing is almsot Koed by some physical moves, it's Hyper Voice is so threatening and many Pokemon can't use his STAB or they could be slower and e threathen by Will-o-Wisp (which is the better 4th slot right now). also, his Special bulk is rather decent and his weakness aren'0t common at all.

Imo, the main reason MegaVoir isn't in A+ Rank is because of its limited defensive utility. Almost all of the A+ Rank Pokes are defensively competent or have useful resistances / immunties, which allow them to check Pokemon while still hitting everything hard. Mega Pinsir is in a similiar boat to MegaVoir in terms of defensive worth, but can at least fend for itself with powerful priority and strong 2-move coverage. MegaVoir seems to be slightly a cut under A+, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up there since its Fairy attacks managed to substantially influence the tier.

Raikou should rise to A- rank with Manectric. It can supply the role of Menectric in teams with another Mega, has enough niches over Manectric, it has decent bulk and Electric types are a good thing to have against the very common Azumarill, keldeo, Talonflame, Charizard-Y Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, Rotom-W, etc.

So far the only outstanding advantage Raikou has over Mega Mane is that it has Extrasensory to hit Mega Venusaur harder. Not being able to check Greninja is a pretty big bummer.

Time to discuss:

So I am aware that people are on board with sending Latios to S Rank, possibly with his little sis accompanying him (though people are less agreeable on that). While I get that the loss of Aegislash and Mawile are a huge load off its shoulders, but somehow I don't feel the meta is exactly Latios's playground yet. The rise of Jirachi is a royal pain in Latios's ass, as it is not only a hardwall to Latios, but is also the Stealth Rocker Latios wants nothing to do with, which slightly limits its effectiveness as a Defogger. The rise of MegaVoir, on the other hand, only made people buff up their Steel-types, which for the most part also manage to stop Latios; this means that Latios's Draco Meteors aren't nearly as influential as they were before, now preparing for Latios is no longer a huge teambuilding priority: if your team can fend off a MegaVoir, it should be able to handle Latios. I don't know if this is still a valid point against Latios's rise to S Rank as I am aware that the users who wish to promote Latios know of this flaw, but isn't Pursuit trapping still a thing? I just want to know what warrants its rise to S Rank: is it its improved effectiveness as an offensive presence due to the departure of two influential Steel-types (MegaVoir resets this advantage :/), or its effectiveness as a Defogger enhanced because, uhm, I dunno, because Spinning being easier to do should be a point against Defog, don't you think? As for its ability to check threats, little sis Latias can pull that off too, so why is Latios so much inherently better now?

 

[AM]

Time to discuss:

So I am aware that people are on board with sending Latios to S Rank, possibly with his little sis accompanying him (though people are less agreeable on that). While I get that the loss of Aegislash and Mawile are a huge load off its shoulders, but somehow I don't feel the meta is exactly Latios's playground yet. The rise of Jirachi is a royal pain in Latios's ass, as it is not only a hardwall to Latios, but is also the Stealth Rocker Latios wants nothing to do with, which slightly limits its effectiveness as a Defogger. The rise of MegaVoir, on the other hand, only made people buff up their Steel-types, which for the most part also manage to stop Latios; this means that Latios's Draco Meteors aren't nearly as influential as they were before, now preparing for Latios is no longer a huge teambuilding priority: if your team can fend off a MegaVoir, it should be able to handle Latios. I don't know if this is still a valid point against Latios's rise to S Rank as I am aware that the users who wish to promote Latios know of this flaw, but isn't Pursuit trapping still a thing? I just want to know what warrants its rise to S Rank: is it its improved effectiveness as an offensive presence due to the departure of two influential Steel-types (MegaVoir resets this advantage :/), or its effectiveness as a Defogger enhanced because, uhm, I dunno, because Spinning being easier to do should be a point against Defog, don't you think? As for its ability to check threats, little sis Latias can pull that off too, so why is Latios so much inherently better now?

I can generally agree with most of the stuff although it can bypass some of those issues depending on its set, but the pursuit trapping part is a bit iffy. From what I know off the bat there are only 3 pursuit trappers that can actually trouble it which are T-Tar, Bisharp, and Weavile, might be missing some more that I haven't seen but w/e. Ttar is the more consistent one cause it forces Latios to run HP Fighting to have a decent chance against it and if worn down during the game TTar might not be pursuit trapping anyways due to speed, unless scarfed. Bisharp is a coin flip in most cases if it actually safely gets in, which when hit by LO Draco or HP Fire/Earthquake it usually doesn't, it has to choose to either pursuit trap or to Sucker Punch and in the end something goes down basically off of a simple gamble. Switching in Weavile is extremely hard and almost impossible when Latios' most spammable attack Draco Meteor is taking it out right off the bat, which means Weavile is usually forced to double switch into Latios or has to come in after a partner is out of commission. Most of the S ranks have issues with something more or less, Latios is generally no different and the support it needs to handle those are generally minimal when you consider the pros it provides as an offensive threat. The point is, yes pursuit trapping is a thing, but not to the level of where it maintains consistency in most matches and not to the point where it should be considered a main factor over something like you mentioned, the rise of Jirachi and M-Gardevoir.