Well, you don't use Suicune on every team either, but it's still A-rank. You've called for a ban on SleepTrapPass Smeargle before; this seems to contradict your claim that Smeargle is C-rank under rulesets permitting it to use SleepTrapPass.Even without the ban on it, I probably wouldn't use Smeargle on, like, every team, despite my previously expressed disdain for its legality. In fact I'd probably be too chicken to use it more than every once in a while, I mean Sleep Trap is strong but if it goes even slightly wrong you're basically playing 5-on-6. I'm just not too huge on Pokemon that do one gimmick without contributing to conventional offensive or defensive roles on top of it.
Hypothetical time: If we somehow calculated Smeargle's (or some other BPer's) win rate, what rates of winning would you consider to be at which ranks?Smeargle isn't quite auto-win the way that card can be, and it's not like you're sacrificing as much by running that card in your deck as opposed to running Smeargle over another Pokemon. How close Smeargle is to auto-win is yet to be determined, but until I have enough chances to see all of its sets in action, it's hard for me to imagine it being on par with (and therefore worth using on as many teams as) more flexible mons (Suicune included).
So basically what we're measuring is "in the Nash equilibrium, which things get used to what degrees?", or "what would this page look like if all players had infinite skill?" Nice premise, but it has some issues. Snorlax is safe in the top spot with its equilibrium usage rate of 100%, but Raikou and Zapdos typically don't fit on the same team, so their usage rates will sum to slightly over 100% at most. In turn, this means something like Cloyster, which is utile on almost all teams and doesn't really compete with other standards (only with Forretress and - for spin Cloy - Starmie), is probably going to fall between them (and indeed, for the past 12 months Raikou's usage has never exceeded that of Cloyster on PO, and Cloyster's usually higher on PS as well). Are you prepared to give Cloyster S-rank? Probably not. And I wouldn't be, either.Anyway, as for your actual question, I probably wouldn't base an objective ranking on an insta-win rate. Probably not even on an overall win rate. I'd probably base it more on frequency of Pokemon X being used among the set of optimal teams that average a 50% win rate against each other. Because anything other than 50% implies that you're using a bad prior distribution of opposing teams. Or something like that. Does that make sense? I don't know if it does. I tried to flesh out the idea but I ended up confusing myself and it seemed a pointless exercise as such a computation would most certainly be intractable.
Well, Lax team vs. non-Lax team isn't 50-50, so given a real meta where there is some (small) percentage of non-Lax teams, you can do that sort of empirical analysis (you can use various formulae to compare the win rates of Pokemon with different usage rates). Lax's corrected win rate in the ideal meta is strictly not "50%", but "indeterminate", because those formulae end up dividing 0 by 0 in the "non-Snorlax wins divided by non-Snorlax teams" term.Yeah it had problems. Dunno where I was going with it. More just me thinking about your question and not being able to give a straight answer because win rates are, on their own, a flawed measure of viability. I mean, for starters, it fails for determining Lax's viability, as his win rate is necessarily 50%!
Trying to define what it is that we're measuring isn't particularly silly IMO. We are taking it elsewhere, though.much blabla not much actual practice of things.
Smeargle aint broken and the general ban of PO on sleeptrapping is retarded. Nice theorymon you guys got going there though. Next time try to test stuff you deem broken in an actual tournament setting before you make such claims, k thx.
If you would do that you would learn really fast that Smeargle/Sleeptrap is a wonky concept and as reliant on luck as CRay-MLook-shit is aka not broken just annoying from time to time and entirely unreliable.
Are you preaching to the choir or simply confused and arguing with nobody? I don't think anyone in here was saying that "the general ban of PO on sleeptrapping" wasn't retarded.much blabla not much actual practice of things.
Smeargle aint broken and the general ban of PO on sleeptrapping is retarded. Nice theorymon you guys got going there though. Next time try to test stuff you deem broken in an actual tournament setting before you make such claims, k thx.
If you would do that you would learn really fast that Smeargle/Sleeptrap is a wonky concept and as reliant on luck as CRay-MLook-shit is aka not broken just annoying from time to time and entirely unreliable.
And how many people are there?Hey guys if you really wanna test this out Reborn Server on PO doesn't instantly boot Sleep Trap mons from your team.
As do a few others but this is the one I tested so yeah.
I meant "are there enough people there to get a read on what the meta looks like with just a ML/Hyp/PS ban".If you don't mind going in blind it's not that important, since tourney matches tend to just be "yo pick a server" and a lot of people like to go to a less populated server anyway for various reasons.
what issues are left? afaik only trap passing is broken in GSC (and powder snow because I haven't fixed my commit yet)I meant "are there enough people there to get a read on what the meta looks like with just a ML/Hyp/PS ban".
Has Showdown fixed GSC and RBY yet or do they just not give a shit?
Low Kick, phazing moves and the SleepPerishTrap ban are the ones that were broken in GSC last I checked. Low Kick because the damage isn't variable with weight before ADV (but it was variable on PS's GSC OU), phazing because somebody had hacked it to "slower negative-priority moves go first" instead of actually putting in the proper fix ("phazing moves fail if they go first"), and the SleepPerishTrap ban only banned Hypnosis/Mean Look/Perish Song instead of <sleep move>/<permanent trap move>/Perish Song (Jynx and Smeargle get access to non-Hypnosis sleep moves, and Smeargle gets Spider Web). Have those been dealt with yet?what issues are left? afaik only trap passing is broken in GSC (and powder snow because I haven't fixed my commit yet)
Yes, Immortal asked what was correct after I said what was correct. Since Immortal was quoting me, I assumed my word alone wasn't considered reliable enough to act on, and others' confirmation was being sought. So I didn't reply, and for some unknowable reason nobody else did either.And iirc The Immortal asked what the proper thing to do about the SleepPerishTrap issue (when it was discovered Jynx could get through teambuilder legality checks) and I'm not sure if someone answered (it was another thread).
Okay, any ideas when it will be correct?Reflect isn't correct for RBY on PS, not sure about counter.