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Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    [​IMG]~GSC Viability Rankings~[​IMG]

    Hey all the other gens were doing it so I decided to post one for GSC too. Formatting and opening text mostly stolen from McMeghan's ADV thread.

    Welcome to the GSC Viability Rankings topic! In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers", which are named according to standard letter grades because after participating this thread you should be able to take your opponents to school! In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in GSC and what tier they should fall under.

    The general idea of the topic is to rank each GSC pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. As this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offensive and defensive threats, and the ordering within tiers will be alphabetical.

    Also, while I wish I could put everything that had a chance of being useful on this list (there's so many cool things I had to leave off :pirate: ), it would positively explode if I did that. As such, this list is not a comprehensive list of everything that could be useful in GSC, but rather a list of the Pokemon most likely to be useful, with an unfortunately arbitrary cutoff.

    Anyway, without further ado, here is

    DA LIST:

    Snorlax-rank

    (This Pokemon is Snorlax. It is the best. Period.)

    • [​IMG]Snorlax

    S-rank
    (The world basically revolves around these Pokemon. They're absolutely centralizing, and having at LEAST one of these Pokemon is a prerequisite for almost any competitive team.)
    • [​IMG]Raikou
    • [​IMG] Zapdos

    A-Rank
    (These Pokemon are the cream of the crop. They aren't horribly centralizing, but they each fulfill a vital role for their team in a way no other Pokemon can, and are versatile enough to fit onto just about any team.)
    • [​IMG]Cloyster
    • [​IMG] Exeggutor
    • [​IMG] Gengar
    • [​IMG] Miltank
    • [​IMG] Nidoking
    • [​IMG] Skarmory
    • [​IMG] Starmie
    • [​IMG] Steelix
    • [​IMG] Suicune
    • [​IMG] Tyranitar
    • [​IMG] Vaporeon

    B-Rank
    (These Pokemon fulfill a given offensive/defensive/support niche. They have some flaws that prevent them from being as consistent as the higher-ranked Pokemon, but are nonetheless powerful and should be taken into account when building a team.)
    • [​IMG] Blissey
    • [​IMG] Dragonite
    • [​IMG] Forretress
    • [​IMG] Heracross
    • [​IMG] Machamp
    • [​IMG] Marowak
    • [​IMG] Misdreavus
    • [​IMG] Rhydon
    • [​IMG] Umbreon

    C-Rank
    (These Pokemon usually need more support to be effective. They are often inferior to the higher-ranked Pokemon but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support.)
    • [​IMG] Ampharos
    • [​IMG] Charizard
    • [​IMG] Clefable
    • [​IMG] Espeon
    • [​IMG] Golem
    • [​IMG] Houndoom
    • [​IMG] Jolteon
    • [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    • [​IMG] Meganium
    • [​IMG] Muk
    • [​IMG] Porygon2
    • [​IMG] Quagsire
    • [​IMG] Smeargle
    • [​IMG] Tentacruel


    Of course, I expect disagreements about the spot of some of these Pokemon, but that's what the thread is for. In particular, I expect B and C tiers to be a battleground because that's around the point where I have trouble finding a really good cutoff.

    Rules :
    Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
    No flaming.
    Stay objective. The fact that you love X or Y Pokemon doesn't mean it's objectively a beast.

    EDIT: Made changes according to discussion thus far. See post #24.

    EDIT: more changes. Post #59

    EDIT: Removed D rank. See post #148.

    EDIT: Snorlax now own rank. Like it should have been before Post #187.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  2. Laurel

    Laurel Never Too Late
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    From my limited experience in GSC I can see a clear cutoff in C rank, is it worth adding then like a B- rank?
    I see P2, Jolteon, Tentacruel, and Espeon, being slightly better than the rest of the pack, but again I don't know much.
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Miltank to B imo

    A desc: (These Pokemon are the cream of the crop. They aren't horribly centralizing, but they each fulfill a vital role for their team in a way no other Pokemon can, and are versatile enough to fit onto just about any team.)

    Fulfills a vital role: Yes
    Versatile to fit into any team: No

    B desc: (These Pokemon fulfill a given offensive/defensive/support niche. They have some flaws that prevent them from being as consistent as the higher-ranked Pokemon, but are nonetheless powerful and should be taken into account when building a team.)

    Fufill a niche: Yes
    Some flaws marring consistency: Yes
    Powerful: Yes


    Miltank is limited insofar as the types of teams it can be run on, much more so than any of the other A rank Pokemon. I wouldn't say its something you always have to take into account either. Given the above criteria, it fits accurately into B imo.
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Texas Cloverleaf
    Well, you do always have to account for Miltank, just not the same way you would an attacker. If you're planning on accomplishing anything with status or Curselax or pretty much any mixed attacker, you have to think about Miltank.

    I'd say Miltank is plenty versatile, too, as I've used it on both faster and slower teams to decent success. On top of the always-useful Heal Bell support, it walls every Curser bar Machamp, and manhandles most mixed attackers to boot. That's consistency for days. It's definitely on par with the other A mons.

    Also Laurel you're definitely right, and I initially had + and - ranks but it was decided that it made things too clunky. So instead we get awkward tier-mates. I picked my poison, it's the one that made the list easier to read. With discussion, the awkwardness within tiers should get reduced anyway.
  5. Floppy

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    im iffy about machamp and nido being at B as I believe they are way more devastating than a B-rank classification perceives them to be. hardly anything can switch into both in the hands of a very experienced player, even with little or no support in play.

    not to mention they are also versatile as hell both in choice of movesets, and being able to fit into any random team.
  6. Isa

    Isa

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    Nidoking for A
    Rhydon for C
    Porygon2 for B

    Rhydon in B looks especially weird to me. Strong, sure, but slow and absolutely shredded by special moves.
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Nido is walled by Sleep Talk CurseLax, which is reasonably common.

    Not really sure why Starmie's higher than Forretress. Starmie spins and screens; Forry spikes and spins. Starmie stops Machamp; Forry stops non-HP Eggy and can boom on stuff like DrumLax. Both are setup bait for CurseLax and die in a hurry to Electrics. I kinda feel like Starmie should be B rank.

    I'd recommend appending Scyther to D rank. Swords Dance + EndRev is basically the only thing it does, but it's pretty good at it.
  8. Xeze

    Xeze

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    Tentacruel has the potential to be higher IMO. It can switch into Suicune, Vaporeon, Cloyster and Forretress all day long (unless the latter two Explode on the switch-in) and can set-up on them, except if Suicune has Roar. Its main problems are Zapdos and Raikou and the fact that it can't really switch into grounds. If there was a C+ rank, Tenta would be definitely there. Not sure about B though.
  9. Floppy

    Floppy
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    ugh, why do people say stuff like this?

    yes it's walled by st curselax. and?

    you have 5 more mons to handle sleep talk curselax...

    starmie is walled by sleep talk vaporeon, which is reasonably common. now what?
    MoxieInfinite likes this.
  10. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Some comments:
    S-rank
    (The world basically revolves around these Pokemon. They're absolutely centralizing, and having at LEAST one of these Pokemon is a prerequisite for any competitive team.)
    • [​IMG] => Lax is the GSC king, it should be above Raikou.
    • [​IMG] = [​IMG] => Both are really good. Raikou is more defensive, and can be the best phazer in the game as well, while zapdos is more offensive.

    A-Rank
    (These Pokemon are the cream of the crop. They aren't horribly centralizing, but they each fulfill a vital role for their team in a way no other Pokemon can, and are versatile enough to fit onto just about any team.)
    • [​IMG] => Probably, the most dangerous explosion. It can also sleep and para.
    • [​IMG] => Spikes is huge, and it can also spin and boom. Sadly it has to choose between spinning and booming.
    • [​IMG] => Impredictable. Perish trap, CR, Sleep, Boom, Destiny Bond, t-bolt, fire/ice punch, Dynamic Punch...
    • [​IMG] => The best physical stopper (unless slower curse + roar, or fire/electric attacks)
    • [​IMG] => The best spinner
    • [​IMG] => It can take hits very well, it's a great phazer, and it can boom. After a curse it can kill Suicune (Surf doesn't kill)
    • [​IMG] => The wall.
    • [​IMG] => Either curse (it can beat Skarm with Roar) or mixed sweeper, t-tar is a big threat. It can also phaze.
    • [​IMG] => A very dangerous sweeper with Growth. It can use Acid Armor to beat Curselax.
    • [​IMG] => Machamp is very good, especially with boom cloy suppoer. It is one of the most dangerous GSC threats, having a way to beat its common counters. It deserves A-Rank at least.
    • [​IMG] => Miltank is a very good mixed wall, and a very good cleric, but it shouldn't be that high. It also beats cursers with Growl.
    • [​IMG] => It hits very hard, and can also sweep very easily with some para support and/or spikes support.
    • [​IMG] => A very dangerous mixed sweeper that can sleep and hit hard. Yes, it has some solid counters, but even with sleep talkers like Snorlax or Suicune, with Spikes it's a very dangerous mon. Maybe it could be B-Rank, but top B-Rank at worst.

    B-Rank
    (These Pokemon fulfill a given offensive/defensive/support niche. They have some flaws that prevent them from being as consistent as the higher-ranked Pokemon, but are nonetheless powerful and should be taken into account when building a team.)
    • [​IMG] => Easy heal bell vs electrics and Light Screen are the reasons to use it over Miltank in a team as a healer.
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG] => Perish trap can be very annoying. It also spin blocks.
    • [​IMG] => Curse + roar that was a good counter to electrics. Sadly, Hidden Power now hits it hard.
    • [​IMG] => A mixed wall that can Charm to beat cursers, and that can also trap things.
    • [​IMG] => BD + Moonlight can hurt a lot of teams
    • [​IMG] => A dangerous mixed sweeper. It can also be a good wall with Reflect + Haze, beating BDers and things like Vaporeon.
    • [​IMG] => Growth + BP. It can beat Raikou.
    • [​IMG] => SubSD can be very dangerous for any team. Maybe C-Rank, but it can be a very dangerous threat.
    • [​IMG] => Beats electrics and can BD.
    • [​IMG] => It can BP Agilities and Growts. Sadly, it can't touch Raikou, and it will phaze Jolteon.

    C-Rank
    (These Pokemon usually need more support to be effective. They are often inferior to the higher-ranked Pokemon but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support.)
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG] => It's a decent curser- T-wave set is a good para spreader, and D-E can 3HKO Raikou.
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG] => It deserves at least C-Rank.

    D-Rank
    (These Pokemon have a small niche, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then they're worth the majority of the time.)
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG] => SD + BP, but walled by Skarm
    • [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    One problem I had with this list is that A tier started feeling a little cluttered, so I ended up dropping some things to B that felt "OU, but definitely off-beat OU". That said, I think the main pure attacker I would consider bringing to A tier (and who I actually had in A before I got rid of tier subdivisions) is Nidoking (who I dropped mostly because he needs LK to hit the right thing lest he become fairly underwhelming). He doesn't get worn down as easily as Marowak and Machamp do, which gives him a lot more opportunities to do damage. Plus, despite the danger of catching the wrong thing, LK is a quick and very easy way to instantly screw over his counters, so in tandem with his improved ability to stick around, Nido doesn't need a bunch of support to muscle his way past those counters. Machamp and Marowak require more support to really work, although it's not because they can't muscle their way past their counters, because they obviously can, and without the LK dependence . It's because, without some support to accelerate the process, they generally don't stick around long enough to pull it off.

    Also M Dragon I would have put Snorlax first if I weren't doing within-tier classifications alphabetically. I guess Snorlax can be allowed to defy the alphabet, though, who am I to argue with the king.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  12. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    I'd also suggest Tentacruel for B rank because it actually doesn't need that much support - at least compared to other C-Ranks like Clefable or Charizard. Fairly easy setup and very respectable special bulk also give it an edge over alot in that category. You can sweep teams with Tentacruel way easier than with a belly drum user in my opinion.
    Not to mention that tentacruel actually does get a couple of other viable tools like Rapid Spin, Haze, etc. None of them are really standard because sub-sd is just the best set and quite some moves are incompatible with others, but it does offer some theoretical versability.

    Also Pikachu should at least get a mention. I would use Pikachu over Raichu all day tbh.
  13. Xeze

    Xeze

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    I would also suggest adding Electabuzz for D-Rank. Frail but fast and with a nice movepool that can hit the majority of OU super effectively.
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Nidoking's job is to take something out of commission with Lovely Kiss and hurt things; it's a mixed attacker. Sleep Talk CurseLax is not taken out of commission by LK, and is not hurt by Nidoking's attacks. Thus, if ST CurseLax is in play, it can't accomplish its function.

    Starmie is a spinner; its job is to remove Spikes. Sleep Talk Vaporeon is not Ghost-type, and as such cannot stop Starmie from Spinning away Spikes. Thus, Starmie can still accomplish its function whether ST Vaporeon is in play or not.

    Also, mentions of Starmie aren't all that relevant since I noted my doubts about Starmie being A rank in the same post you quoted.
  15. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I speak from experience when I say that Sleep Talk Snorlax is not entirely comfortable with switching into Nidoking. Especially not with Spikes down. So it's not exactly completely shut down in that scenario.

    Sleep Talk Heracross is your best bet most of the time, and even then, Nido could be a weirdo that uses Fire Blast instead of BoltBeam.
    MoxieInfinite likes this.
  16. Borat

    Borat

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    not comfortable with some of these. ie these should not be in the same sentence:

    heracross - nidoking
    dragonite - smeargle/quagsire

    with regards to above, nidoking is lackluster without spikes support, but is a whole different beast altogether in a spikes environment.
  17. Floppy

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    I used the starmie/vaporeon thing as a random example to try to squeeze a point out of you. you said X walled Y, and left it at that. what does one do with that?

    edit: also was going to elaborate on stalk lax vs nidoking + spikes but jorgen already got that point across
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Well, which do you think is better?
  19. Durant

    Durant

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    Sorry if i am wrong but shouldn't Alakazam be C rank:

    C-Rank

    (These Pokemon usually need more support to be effective. They are often inferior to the higher-ranked Pokemon but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support.)

    To me this description fits Alakazam good because while he does need team support with removing some of it's counters like Tyranitar, Snorlax and Blissey, once those are gone he is able to deal tons of damage.
  20. magic9mushroom

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    Snorlax is on literally every team in GSC and can't easily be "removed". It also doesn't fare too well against the Electrics Raikou and Zapdos (of which, again, at least one is on every team) if they RestTalk (which Raikou sometimes does, and Zapdos almost always does) as it's often 2HKOed (always by Zapdos' Thunder, usually by Raikou's) and struggles to 3HKO (can't on Raikou barring a crit or SpD fall, usually fails to on Zapdos).
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  21. Durant

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    Even then D rank is still a bit too low and i think he would be better in low C.
  22. MoxieInfinite

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    Yea, snorlax needs something like snorlax rank or something
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  23. Durant

    Durant

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    Would the name by something like king Snorlax's own tier and nobody can join because i'm king.
  24. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Okay so I went through all the suggestions so far in the thread and compiled a series of responses (and, more importantly, updated the list accordingly).

    Porygon2 from C to B
    I love P2 as much as anyone, so I had placed P2 in C just to counteract my own biases. I think it does fit the criteria of B better than C, as it fulfills all 3 of the niches slashed in the B-rank description and isn't as limited as the C-rank description would suggest it is. M Dragon endorsed its C placement though, so I wanna hear more support for this before I actually pull the trigger.

    Jolteon from C to B
    Jolteon is kinda like Heracross in that it's a "classic" OU that, realistically, isn't all that great. That being said, Heracross is currently B and Jolteon probably has a higher ceiling (albeit competition with other, better Electrics), so yeah, Jolt probably fits better in B. My only trepidation is that Jolt is definitely more support-dependent than the other B-rankers, but at the same time, he fits the B-rank descriptor of "needs to be taken into account when teambuilding" perfectly. I need more support to commit.

    Tentacruel from C to B
    I have trepidation on this one because Tentacruel has a very specific sweeper niche. He doesn't require a ton of support, but its power is kinda metagame-dependent: if the Spikes and Vap become less popular and Starmie/Gengar become more popular, Tenta loses out on his setup opportunities and just kinda sits around like a wad. I won't deny that you should explicitly prepare for this thing, though. There's quite a bit of support for this to be moved, I can dig it with just a little bit more.

    Espeon from C to B
    I feel the same way about this as Tentacruel, although I lean closer to keeping it C. Its defensive duties, while useful, are small in number, and its main role is Baton Passing Growths (sure, you could sweep with Hidden Power, but you don't get THAT many opportunities to set up and most Espys aim to pass). It also requires a bunch of support, being a BP mon and all. Not saying it isn't good, but its niche is a bit too narrow for B imo. I'm keeping it at C for now.

    Miltank from A to B
    I said my peace on this. Miltank stays in A.

    Machamp from B to A
    I disagree with this, and I said why when discussing Nido possibly to A. He just gets worn down too quickly, so he requires conscious support to wear down his walls. Definitely devastating, but not something you can just slap on a team. It stays in B for now.

    Nido from B to A
    I actually agree with this. Nido doesn't need a ton of support (maybe Spikes to run on all four cylinders, but that's support you can provide by accident without conscious effort), and he can be slapped on as the Ground for just about any team. Definitely fits the A rank description, and I'm moving it there with this update.

    Rhydon from B to C
    I think if I'm considering Jolteon to B, Rhydon stays in B. Sure, shredded by Special moves, but it walls Snorlax like a man (which is a somewhat narrow niche, but an uber-important one) and, unlike other Snorlax walls, can absolutely devastate poorly-prepared teams with its attacks. Plus I remember going through a phase where I was building inexplicably Rhydon-weak teams, so it's not like you can accidentally counter this thing, you have to consciously prepare for it to an extent. Rhydon fits B-rank fine.

    Scyther to D
    Scyther is straight garbage. The only thing that EndRev works for is Heracross and that's because he can actually OHKO things with STAB Reversal and gets STAB Megahorn to OHKO Psychics. You need OHKOs everywhere to make it work, and Scyther doesn't do that. Scyther stays off the list.

    Marowak from B to A
    I don't really wanna do this for the same reason I'm holding out on Machamp. Gets worn down too easily, so he needs significant support. B-rank he stays.

    Clefable from C to B
    I don't really like this. I feel like if you can counter Snorlax, you most likely have a Clefable counter unless you're using a Skarm - Miltank core, which is getting rarer in today's GSC. Many stall teams like this will have a Ttar to boot, anyway. So there goes the "need to explicitly prepare for it" bit of B-tier. Clefable's niche is also pretty limited: it's a good wallbreaker/sweeper once it gets the chance to drum, and that's it. Moonlight makes it worth propping up with support on some teams, but that's a solitary advantage that fits C-rank's description well. C-rank it remains.

    Dragonite from C to B
    Dnite could probably use a jump. It's definitely able to act in multiple roles, with its stats and movepool making it a dangerous attacker (it has basically no hard walls), and its typing allowing it to be a decent check to Grounds and Vap and Egg. So its niche isn't as limited as C tier would suggest. My biggest beef is that it matches up so poorly against Electrics, which are everywhere, but needing support (in this case, Explosion support) to function doesn't bar one entry into the B club. Only Borat really supported this, though, and not even explicitly, so I'd need to see more support here.

    Quagsire from C to B
    Maybe. It doesn't feel quite right, but the more I think on it, the more moving Quag up makes sense within the descriptions of the ranks and what my thinking suggests above. It walls Electrics (and a bunch of mixed attackers if need be), and can Drum up to wreak offensive havoc (with support, obviously). It's almost always going to be useful to some extent, so it's not as limited as C rank would suggest. Only M Dragon liked this, and it seems opposed by Borat, so I need more support to commit to a move.

    Alakazam from D to C
    Alakazam is definitely more trouble than it's worth. Do you want Recover loops? Because using this is how you get Recover loops. It remains in D.

    Pikachu to D
    I left a lot of interesting things out of this tier list to avoid an explosion of the bottom tier. Pikachu is not the most viable thing I left off. Pikachu stays off the list.

    Electabuzz to D
    Yeah, sure. It's one of the more viable things I failed to include in D tier. Outspeeding Zapdos is huge. Electabuzz is added to D.
  25. Durant

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    From my experiences Quagsire deserves B because Raikou and Zapdos are big threats ( both S rank right now ) and being able to counter them is really great. Also it's biggest type weakness in grass types only and of the grass types Exeggcutor is the only really common one. It can also defeat curse users if it decides to run haze. But i am not a great old gen player so i might be wrong.

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