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Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)
- Thread starter Jorgen
- Start date
- Status
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
And a working clock is right none times a day :o
No but seriously: Starmie. What did I see in it before? Am I that chickenshit about Machamp or something? Rapid Spin is just not enough of a certainty to be an A-rank, splashable sort of mon, and as a water, Starmie ain't a great tank, it's better suited to niche walling roles.
No but seriously: Starmie. What did I see in it before? Am I that chickenshit about Machamp or something? Rapid Spin is just not enough of a certainty to be an A-rank, splashable sort of mon, and as a water, Starmie ain't a great tank, it's better suited to niche walling roles.
Being the arguably best spinner is, at least what i think, the reason that gives it the "cream of the crop" status. That and the great speed and typing making it a decent check for several offensive threats (nidoking, steelix, etc). Not to mention the potential versatility of it (screens, twave). What i can't agree with is the "can fit on any team" point of the a-rank description, because this isn't really the case with Starmie. I do think Starmie is alot better than the average b-rank mon, but i can see both positions here, since Starmie isn't really on the same level most other a-ranks are.
You can indeed argue about whether Starmie is the best spinner; Tentacruel is even better if you've got Pursuit support. And even discounting Tentacruel, is Starmie's spinning better enough compared to that of Rapid Spin Cloyster to really make it "cream of the crop", when Cloyster also lays Spikes?
And yes, it has a wide movepool, but it can't actually use most of it without degrading its primary role; it needs Rapid Spin to be a spinner, and it needs Psychic (for Gengar) and Recover (for Toxic) to lay any claim to being the "best" spinner. Surf or Light Screen is probably also wise so it doesn't get assassinated. That's... all four moves.
(There is the gimmicky ThunderDance set, and I'll grant that countering Machamp/Tentacruel and either Vaporeon or Steelix/Rhydon/Golem/Charizard is some decent niche coverage.)
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Every spinner is arguably the best because there aren't enough of them for any single one to be particularly outclassed by the rest. Starmie doesn't really do anything else except cockblock Machamp (come on dudes Tentacruel isn't relevant), and only really hard with Reflect.
Starmie isn't even better than Machamp in B. also P2 is still a bamf
Starmie isn't even better than Machamp in B. also P2 is still a bamf
See, I think I had A-rank Starmie mostly because you can't not prepare for it. Cloyster needs to be able to get Spikes on it, Machamp needs a move to beat it, etc. It's not difficult to work around, but it is something you can't safely ignore.
However, actually using it for yourself runs into these issues (which are hinted at by how simple it is to build an offense that beats it when you don't neglect it):
-is played in a purely reactionary fashion
-has Toxic and Pursuit weaknesses that are very exploitable in the Spikes game.
-invites Snorlax like no tomorrow, and does nothing about it
It's hard to call it the best spinner for these reasons:
-Cloyster and Forretress do active Spikes-laying
-Forretress and Tentacruel are vulnerable to neither Pursuit nor Toxic
-Forretress and pre-reveal Cloyster keep Lax away with boom threats; Donphan keeps it away with mighty STAB EQ and Encore to prevent setup
If you look at it like this, Starmie is actually a pretty shitty spinner. Its positive attributes outside of "access to Spin" have nothing to do with Spinning, but rather having a breadth of other things it can check: Grounds as a second look, including Nidoking; Machamp; Charizard; Tyranitar; Gengar; Druidcruel. The problem is that this breadth just isn't worth being so passive and prone to letting Lax in.
People also pay lip-service to its support movepool, but let's be real. Screens are overrated (especially on something that just invites Lax all day, thereby wasting Screen turns on reactionary play), and Twave is just going to catch Lax all day, who doesn't really mind.
I'd say that Starmie's last chance is to forego some of its niche coverage while using a move that compensates for its reactionary nature by making life weird for Snorlax. I don't like Reflect because it merely stalls Snorlax, and only temporarily. No, what we need is a move you can toss out to saddle Snorlax with a complication for a much longer period of time, thereby not merely dulling the effect of this switch in, but also that of future switch-ins. Like, say, a status that would force him to Rest at some point. Like, say, the simplest, most apparently wasteful 4th on a mon with access to fancy moves like Screens and Twave: Toxic. Toxic Starmie is hardly a new idea, but I have to think it's Starmie's best bet at being useful in this meta. I mean, it has Recover to set it apart from stuff like Blastoise, so avoiding being outclassed by something as silly as that isn't ever a problem.
However, actually using it for yourself runs into these issues (which are hinted at by how simple it is to build an offense that beats it when you don't neglect it):
-is played in a purely reactionary fashion
-has Toxic and Pursuit weaknesses that are very exploitable in the Spikes game.
-invites Snorlax like no tomorrow, and does nothing about it
It's hard to call it the best spinner for these reasons:
-Cloyster and Forretress do active Spikes-laying
-Forretress and Tentacruel are vulnerable to neither Pursuit nor Toxic
-Forretress and pre-reveal Cloyster keep Lax away with boom threats; Donphan keeps it away with mighty STAB EQ and Encore to prevent setup
If you look at it like this, Starmie is actually a pretty shitty spinner. Its positive attributes outside of "access to Spin" have nothing to do with Spinning, but rather having a breadth of other things it can check: Grounds as a second look, including Nidoking; Machamp; Charizard; Tyranitar; Gengar; Druidcruel. The problem is that this breadth just isn't worth being so passive and prone to letting Lax in.
People also pay lip-service to its support movepool, but let's be real. Screens are overrated (especially on something that just invites Lax all day, thereby wasting Screen turns on reactionary play), and Twave is just going to catch Lax all day, who doesn't really mind.
I'd say that Starmie's last chance is to forego some of its niche coverage while using a move that compensates for its reactionary nature by making life weird for Snorlax. I don't like Reflect because it merely stalls Snorlax, and only temporarily. No, what we need is a move you can toss out to saddle Snorlax with a complication for a much longer period of time, thereby not merely dulling the effect of this switch in, but also that of future switch-ins. Like, say, a status that would force him to Rest at some point. Like, say, the simplest, most apparently wasteful 4th on a mon with access to fancy moves like Screens and Twave: Toxic. Toxic Starmie is hardly a new idea, but I have to think it's Starmie's best bet at being useful in this meta. I mean, it has Recover to set it apart from stuff like Blastoise, so avoiding being outclassed by something as silly as that isn't ever a problem.
Mr.E Jorgen
Fuck it, let's casebash this shit. This is strictly a spinning contest; I know half of them have other utility but we're ignoring that for now. I'm also assuming that teams won't have more than one of [Gengar, Misdreavus, Tyranitar, Umbreon], and that Cloyster always has Toxic. Tell me if I get something wrong.
Opponent has Cloyster only:
Cloyster: "Tie", depending on set. Umbreon support helps.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: Can remove Spikes in the short term with Giga Drain (somewhat prediction-reliant) but they otherwise stay down; can win and remove them in the long term with Toxic or with Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes are gone in the short term; they will end up down for periods in the long term.
Tentacruel: No Spikes, ever.
Opponent has Cloyster + Gengar:
Cloyster: Spikes usually stay down forever.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: May be able to remove Spikes in the short term with Giga Drain+Hidden Power Ghost (prediction-reliant) but they otherwise stay down; to win in the long term it needs either Toxic+Hidden Power Ghost, Toxic+Tyranitar support, or Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes may or may not stay down in the short term (prediction-reliant); in the long run it usually reduces to Starmie vs. Cloyster.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Tyranitar or Umbreon support.
Opponent has Cloyster + Misdreavus:
Cloyster: Spikes usually stay down forever.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: Spikes stay down in the short term; can win and remove them in the long term with Toxic or with Hidden Power Ghost+Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes stay down in the short term; to win in the long term it needs Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Opponent has Cloyster + Umbreon:
Cloyster: Your opponent will probably win in the long term, but in the short term it's still a "tie" based on moveset.
Starmie: Spikes are still gone in the short term, but in the long term you're more likely to have to accept them due to the extra pressure on Starmie.
(no other spinner cares about Umbreon)
Opponent has Forretress only:
Cloyster: Spikes are gone in the short term unless Forry has Giga Drain; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Stalemate, unless one of you has Hidden Power Fire or Curse. I guess you can stall them out of Spikes???
Starmie: Spikes stay down basically forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they're gone in the short term, but will end up down for periods in the long term if Forry has Toxic.
Tentacruel: No Spikes, ever.
Opponent has Forretress + Gengar:
Cloyster: Spikes stay down in the short term; in the long term you can only remove them if you have Pursuit support and Forry doesn't have Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Spikes stay down forever unless you have Hidden Power Ghost or some form of Pursuit support, and then it's still a stalemate.
Starmie: Spikes stay down forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they may or may not stay down in the short term (prediction-reliant) but will be gone in the long term unless Forry has Toxic.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Tyranitar or Umbreon support.
Opponent has Forretress + Misdreavus:
Cloyster: Spikes stay down in the short term; in the long term they'll stay down only if Forry has Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Spikes stay down forever unless you have Toxic, Hidden Power Ghost or Tyranitar support, and then it's still a stalemate.
Starmie: Spikes stay down forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they still stay down in the short term but may be removed in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Opponent has Forretress + Umbreon:
Cloyster: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll stay down.
Starmie: Spikes are still gone in the short term, but in the long term you're more likely to have to accept them due to the extra pressure on Starmie.
(no other spinner cares about Umbreon)
Opponent has Spiker + Tyranitar:
(Tyranitar can't Pursuit any of the spinners except the mythical Surfless Starmie)
Fuck it, let's casebash this shit. This is strictly a spinning contest; I know half of them have other utility but we're ignoring that for now. I'm also assuming that teams won't have more than one of [Gengar, Misdreavus, Tyranitar, Umbreon], and that Cloyster always has Toxic. Tell me if I get something wrong.
Opponent has Cloyster only:
Cloyster: "Tie", depending on set. Umbreon support helps.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: Can remove Spikes in the short term with Giga Drain (somewhat prediction-reliant) but they otherwise stay down; can win and remove them in the long term with Toxic or with Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes are gone in the short term; they will end up down for periods in the long term.
Tentacruel: No Spikes, ever.
Opponent has Cloyster + Gengar:
Cloyster: Spikes usually stay down forever.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: May be able to remove Spikes in the short term with Giga Drain+Hidden Power Ghost (prediction-reliant) but they otherwise stay down; to win in the long term it needs either Toxic+Hidden Power Ghost, Toxic+Tyranitar support, or Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes may or may not stay down in the short term (prediction-reliant); in the long run it usually reduces to Starmie vs. Cloyster.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Tyranitar or Umbreon support.
Opponent has Cloyster + Misdreavus:
Cloyster: Spikes usually stay down forever.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes stay down basically forever.
Forretress: Spikes stay down in the short term; can win and remove them in the long term with Toxic or with Hidden Power Ghost+Umbreon support.
Starmie: Spikes stay down in the short term; to win in the long term it needs Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Opponent has Cloyster + Umbreon:
Cloyster: Your opponent will probably win in the long term, but in the short term it's still a "tie" based on moveset.
Starmie: Spikes are still gone in the short term, but in the long term you're more likely to have to accept them due to the extra pressure on Starmie.
(no other spinner cares about Umbreon)
Opponent has Forretress only:
Cloyster: Spikes are gone in the short term unless Forry has Giga Drain; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Stalemate, unless one of you has Hidden Power Fire or Curse. I guess you can stall them out of Spikes???
Starmie: Spikes stay down basically forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they're gone in the short term, but will end up down for periods in the long term if Forry has Toxic.
Tentacruel: No Spikes, ever.
Opponent has Forretress + Gengar:
Cloyster: Spikes stay down in the short term; in the long term you can only remove them if you have Pursuit support and Forry doesn't have Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Spikes stay down forever unless you have Hidden Power Ghost or some form of Pursuit support, and then it's still a stalemate.
Starmie: Spikes stay down forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they may or may not stay down in the short term (prediction-reliant) but will be gone in the long term unless Forry has Toxic.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Tyranitar or Umbreon support.
Opponent has Forretress + Misdreavus:
Cloyster: Spikes stay down in the short term; in the long term they'll stay down only if Forry has Toxic.
Donphan/Golem: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll probably end up down if Forry has Toxic.
Forretress: Spikes stay down forever unless you have Toxic, Hidden Power Ghost or Tyranitar support, and then it's still a stalemate.
Starmie: Spikes stay down forever if Forry has Hidden Power Bug. Otherwise they still stay down in the short term but may be removed in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Tentacruel: Spikes stay down in the short term; removes them in the long term with Toxic or Tyranitar support.
Opponent has Forretress + Umbreon:
Cloyster: Spikes are gone in the short term; in the long term they'll stay down.
Starmie: Spikes are still gone in the short term, but in the long term you're more likely to have to accept them due to the extra pressure on Starmie.
(no other spinner cares about Umbreon)
Opponent has Spiker + Tyranitar:
(Tyranitar can't Pursuit any of the spinners except the mythical Surfless Starmie)
Tentacruel is better at spinning without ghosts around. The point is that you usually run a spinner in defensive teams and not offensive ones. Tentacruel is totally useless for a defensive team, while Starmie can counter Machamp etc. Blastoise is kinda decent too because it's neither weak to bug nor to dark and can carry Rest+Talk if you fear Toxic (it also learn Earthquake for Gengar...2hko I guess). It can also counter Tyranitar. But still not so useful...you can counter TTar without a specific counter, while it's harder for Machamp.
So it's very hard for a defensive team not to run a Starmie.
So it's very hard for a defensive team not to run a Starmie.
Wut.
Tentacruel can, in fact, counter Machamp, as it also resists Fighting and it is not weak to Machamp's usual coverage moves. Stick Barrier on it (Tentacruel has the space) and Curse doesn't even work.
And no, Starmie doesn't fit well on stall teams, because they want their own Spikes down and both the Spikers can Spin. You use Toxic, Pursuit, or both to wear down the opposing Spiker, and then any spinner can Spin. Skarm/Suicune/Misdreavus isn't terribly uncommon on stall teams and Machamp has to predict pretty damned well to get past that trio. If that's not your cup of tea, there are other options like Nidoking.
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
except they can do the same to you. double-spin is interresting to play, and definitely an option, though most of those teams are very nidoking weak.
aka starmie works on stall.
aka starmie works on stall.
Give me an example?
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
i believe the team ive been using is lax/raikou/forretress/missy/starmie/ttar, sometimes rhydon or steelix in there, as well as cune>missy for more offensive matchups. youve also got those turbodrum teams or whatever you call them, who runs neither cloy or forry, and if youre like me and cant handle spikes, starmie is your way to go. but suicune is also an option there.
so you kinda pick between nido weak and having spikes down forever on your side.
probably not high quality examples, but starmie being outright "bad" on stall is something i disagree with.
also starmie brings literally nothing to offense aside from maybe a screen? it does not kill anything.
so you kinda pick between nido weak and having spikes down forever on your side.
probably not high quality examples, but starmie being outright "bad" on stall is something i disagree with.
also starmie brings literally nothing to offense aside from maybe a screen? it does not kill anything.
1. Do you have Defense Curl on Forretress or something? If not, what do you do about EQ CurseLax?
2. Is Lax or Raikou your Sleep Talker? Or don't you have one?
3. How is Starmie better than Tentacruel there, given you have Tyranitar to snipe the Ghosts? Beating Gengar is Starmie's main advantage over Tentacruel as a spinner (they do similar amounts to Missy).
Crestfall
levitate, levitate, levitate, levitate
Curse Forry is real tho ;O
Tentacruel can't do anything against EQ Machamp.
About Starmie don't fitting well on stall teams, well, you're assuming defensive teams always have spikes..which isn't true. There are many drumlax based defensive teams without a spiker etc
more pressing than the cursequake weakness, what do you do here:
cloyster enters the field
cloyster sets spikes, your response is to go starmie
cloyster switches to lax as you spin spikes¨
this is now a lax with full HP (or ~90% after spikes + RS damage + lefties) staring down a starmie. if you stay in, he can set up curses freely and cheaply, but if you switch to missy/forretress, he might belly drum (attacking with starmie doesn't really prevent this either i guess). that seems like a big issue to this team that you can't really solve without exploding forretress vs the drum set, but exploding forry doesnt counter cursequake lax.
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
drumlax is a major issue yea but running reflect on either starmie or raikou (or even forry i guess, but i dont do that), kinda (edit:) mitigates that. when i designed this, i mostly wanted to see how it fared against opposing spikes stall (where i feel like it delivered the goods), and i believe i went 18-6 with it on the ladder when i ran this, so thats kinda proof it at least somewhat performs. the opposition level might not have been of the highest quality, but at least i didnt see vileplumes and shit. but yes drumlax is a bitch.
@m9m, resttalk lax shakily handle both. umbreon also an option in the team that i didnt mention. i guess i didnt really think of tentacruel and i guess it probably can work here, havent tested though, but probably will someday.
@m9m, resttalk lax shakily handle both. umbreon also an option in the team that i didnt mention. i guess i didnt really think of tentacruel and i guess it probably can work here, havent tested though, but probably will someday.
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That team wants Suicune > Starmie. Otherwise you're just crumbling to literally any Ground-type (except maybe Steelix. Starmie can counter that well enough).
There are examples of non-spikes Stall teams, true. They are all bad though. Relying on Drumlax and only Drumlax for offense is not good. You need to pair it with Marowak to even have a chance, and even then, without Spikes you still struggle to blast past Cune + Skarm stalls, and because your attackers are difficult to switch in, you never really have a chance to wrest momentum away from offenses.
There are examples of non-spikes Stall teams, true. They are all bad though. Relying on Drumlax and only Drumlax for offense is not good. You need to pair it with Marowak to even have a chance, and even then, without Spikes you still struggle to blast past Cune + Skarm stalls, and because your attackers are difficult to switch in, you never really have a chance to wrest momentum away from offenses.
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
probably, i dont know how to speak
I know it's real, but I also know that it's not standard. Ergo, wise to ask.
Huh, EQ is more common than I thought on Machamp (I don't know why you'd run CC/EQ/RS/Curse given how much Egg/Starmie/Espeon all laugh, but whatever it seems like people are using it). Okay, conceded.
The choice between hp bug and eq is basically if you want to beat Gengar or Eggy faster. Thing is that "beat eggy with hp bug and wear down gar with spikes/rs" and vice versa is a decent gameplan, considering neither eggy nor gar are the most longliving mons in the tier. Hp Bug is better overall for three reasons: eggy is more common, eggy is physically bulkier and takes longer to get worn down, eggy is harder to pursuittrap. That doesn't invalidate using eq at all though, it only says that this specific machamp is more worried about gengar than eggy.
Side notes: Starmie has to be weakened beforehand so that machamp can beat it with hp bug, also assuming machamp is at good health at that point. I left out espeon because it's really uncommon and not really the most reliable machamp switch-in to begin with. EQ also has a couple of features that might come in handy, mostly being accurate and more powerful than both rs and hp bug, which makes it more useful in certain situations, for example misdreavus matchups.
tl, dr: eq is good, hp bug is better, but eq machamp is something common enough you seriously have to be worried about if you plan on using tentacruel to counter it.
Side notes: Starmie has to be weakened beforehand so that machamp can beat it with hp bug, also assuming machamp is at good health at that point. I left out espeon because it's really uncommon and not really the most reliable machamp switch-in to begin with. EQ also has a couple of features that might come in handy, mostly being accurate and more powerful than both rs and hp bug, which makes it more useful in certain situations, for example misdreavus matchups.
tl, dr: eq is good, hp bug is better, but eq machamp is something common enough you seriously have to be worried about if you plan on using tentacruel to counter it.
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