Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[Firebird101]

Hold up. Let's stop talking about counters that counter Salamence's counters.
You do know I'm up for banning MegaMence right? same page? Ok cool.
Mamo/Weavile > Noivern (I get that, but it's irrelevant)
MegaMence > OU (now this is just retarded)

Mega Mence's checks should be discussed as we need to know how they fare in the meta when they are not up against Mega Mence cause many broken offensive beasts in the past forced most people to run niche sets that were next to useless beside checking their target. Noivern is such a mon as it is generally a poor choice in OU and is even forced to run scarfed despite it's great speed to outspeed 1+ Mega Mence. Noivern lacks power and desperately needs life orb or choice specs to be able to dish a serious damage but it has to forgo that to check Mega Mence and even then it fairs badly against the rest of the meta as so many mons pack ice coverage it really is a desperate choice on a team to say the least.

 

[Supremedragoon]

What do you guys think of using Imposter Ditto to beat this thing :3 Take their mega mence and turn it against them :P

 

[Salemance]

What do you guys think of using Imposter Ditto to beat this thing :3 Take their mega mence and turn it against them :P

Except the standard Sub set uses Ditto as set up fodder :(

 

[Firebird101]

What do you guys think of using Imposter Ditto to beat this thing :3 Take their mega mence and turn it against them :P

While Ditto is a nice punisher in hyper-offensive meta Mega Mence loves to run sub and if it hides behind one Ditto can't use it's ability :/

edit: ninja'd >_>

edit2: though on second thought, you could perhaps sack your mon to break it's sub as Mega Mence goes for the kill and then bring your Ditto. But it's still a risky strategy so I'm not sure if I can recommend it.

 

[trikx_insane]

What do you guys think of using Imposter Ditto to beat this thing :3 Take their mega mence and turn it against them :P

What do you think about having to resort to Imposter Ditto just to beat Mega Mence? lol. We shouldn't have to be digging this far just to beat M-Mence. I'm not saying Imposter Ditto sucks, it certainly is good in some circumstances, but if we're seriously resorting to an Imposter Ditto to beat M-Mence, then there's a problem.

 

[Temporelucis]

What do you guys think of using Imposter Ditto to beat this thing :3 Take their mega mence and turn it against them :P

People also run Frustration > Return for that reason.

 

[oookillemd-tan]

Yeah beating mence with ditto is impossible because of reasons mentioned above. Imposter doesn't work vs a sub and, even if you come in when mence is not behind a sub, you have a 50/50 shot of actually hitting mence with a decent move, as frustration does 0 with max happiness and return does 0 with no happiness.

 

[Aura Flare Riolu]

People might run 0 Happiness Ditto for that reason. But then if that becomes more common, then Salamence can switch to Return to counter that. It'll be an endless cycle.

 

[teamsnickers]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban
Edit: Also mega mence is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame unless you run fire blast on it which lets face it no one is doing (im sure a few are but thats it)

 

[boltsandbombers]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban

I'm sorry? Just having a 4x weakness to ice is a terrible argument towards having a suspect test, please have valid info to back it up. Read all the other posts in this thread showing why it should be quickbanned.

 

[SilverPT]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban

People only compare those two because they are both versatile and can run several good sets.

 

[trikx_insane]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban

We're comparing the sheer power and versatility of being unpredictable between M-Mence and M-Lucario. Both M-Mence and M-Lucario are capable of bringing both Special and Physical Sets and their counters/checks are slim to none, that are able to reliably check both sets without worrying what variant M-Mence is. Why should it be that one has priorty and the other doesn't, mean we shouldn't quick ban it? We should've never quickbanned M-Gengar then, which is absolutely illogical. Brokenness is not determined if something has priorty or not, it's whether the mon' is capable of winning situations 99% of the time, is easily abusable, or have slim to none counters/checks, or even able to beat 99% of the metagame. Edit: Also saying M-Mence has a 4x Weakness = no quick ban is stupid, it's like me saying M-Gengar should've also never been quick-banned because it loses Levitate, which means one more weakness added on. What the fuck.

"Edit: Also mega mence is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame unless you run fire blast on it which lets face it no one is doing (im sure a few are but thats it)"

Edit: I'm sorry, but what the fuck did I just read? Even if it's not commonly used, it can easily run it. Mega Salamence also has fucking teammates, allowing it to win 99.9% of the time. What is this mega mence "is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame"? Enlighten me please. Saying "IF IT RUNS FIRE BLAST", is a huge understatement and you're relying on the "IF" part. Seriously...

You know we're seriously lucky M-Mence doesn't get fucking Extreme Speed. I hope you know that. Take that for granted.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban
Edit: Also mega mence is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame unless you run fire blast on it which lets face it no one is doing (im sure a few are but thats it)

Difference between mega luke and mence is mence is much more capable of sweeping.. luke was walled to shit by doublade, aegislash, and a couple other ghost as well as not taking bird spam that well and couldn't switch into THAT much.. still broken as fuck. While mence is walled by absolutely nothing, walls abosolutly everything, and can 2HKO most physically defensive walls that resist his STABs, avoid crippling burn with a viable sub set, OP as fuck.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban
Edit: Also mega mence is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame unless you run fire blast on it which lets face it no one is doing (im sure a few are but thats it)

Two things, First off Mence's 4x Ice weakness is offset by Intimidate pre-mega and its Base-130 defense after evolving. This means that even LO Weavile fails to OHKO Mega Mence post evolving. (Calcs done using this) If Weavile has to switch in and mence gets a sub, then Weavile may only get to break the sub and then die. This is assuming NO investment on Salamence's defenses or HP either.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Secondly, these "common walls" (I'm assuming Ferrothorn, Heatran, Slowbro and Skarmory) can both be easily trapped by Magnezone or other trappers like Gothitelle and Dugtrio. And even then, Ferrothorn can get stalled out of Gyro Ball easily and Skarmory can't really do much but phaze Salamence out, which just delays the sweep. Slowbro can't directly switch in with SR on the field, as its got a decent shot at being 2HKO-ed by unboosted adamant returns.

252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery​

Even with Jolly, Slowbro still takes a sizeable chunk of damage switching in, and if it's somewhat weakened (~80% HP or Mence is at +1) it can't switch in directly or else its toast.


NOTE: Salamence Calcs were done with Mega Mences Base Stats

 

[ボーイ]

Mega Mence's checks should be discussed as we need to know how they fare in the meta when they are not up against Mega Mence cause many broken offensive beasts in the past forced most people to run niche sets that were next to useless beside checking their target. Noivern is such a mon as it is generally a poor choice in OU and is even forced to run scarfed despite it's great speed to outspeed 1+ Mega Mence. Noivern lacks power and desperately needs life orb or choice specs to be able to dish a serious damage but it has to forgo that to check Mega Mence and even then it fairs badly against the rest of the meta as so many mons pack ice coverage it really is a desperate choice on a team to say the least.

Yup. You're right. I shouldn't be using Noivern in OU. Maybe another Salamence to counter Salamence? I mean it is the best counter to it, is itself. The problem is, I want to compete in Pokemon, not Dragon Rulers.

 

[boltsandbombers]

in my opinion it Should NOT be quickbanned... but TESTED First before you guys go nuts on me let me explain
Unlike mega lucario who they are comparing mence to mence does NOT have priority AND ALSO UNLIKE lucario has a 4k weekness.... test mence dont quick ban
Edit: Also mega mence is walled by MANY of the common walls in the metagame unless you run fire blast on it which lets face it no one is doing (im sure a few are but thats it)

I'm replying again as I saw your edit. "Let's face it, no one is running fire blast".
Hello?? Dragon + Fire coverage is incredible, just look at mega charizard x. Even before it got a mega, dd salamence almost always ran fire blast to get past skarmory and ferrothorn, and it's still a great coverage move on mega salamence. Don't say things like that which are blatantly wrong.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I'm replying again as I saw your edit. "Let's face it, no one is running fire blast".
Hello?? Dragon + Fire coverage is incredible, just look at mega charizard x. Even before it got a mega, dd salamence almost always ran fire blast to get past skarmory and ferrothorn, and it's still a great coverage move on mega salamence. Don't say things like that which are blatantly wrong.

Does even need that fire coverage, he is perfectly fine with one STAB being return or frustration since he 2HKO's walls which resist him anyway after a DD.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Since I saw a number of references to MegaMence against Ice Shard Weavile / Mamoswine / Mega Glalie, I ran them into Honko's Calc now that there's another site hosting it for now.

252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 208-252 (62.8 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 270-328 (81.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 208-252 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 270-328 (72.3 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 302-359 (80.9 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (71 - 83.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Glalie Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 220-264 (66.4 - 79.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Glalie Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 220-264 (58.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

TL;DR: Ice Shard vs Megamence =/= checking Megamence.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Yup. You're right. I shouldn't be using Noivern in OU. Maybe another Salamence to counter Salamence? I mean it is the best counter to it, is itself. The problem is, I want to compete in Pokemon, not Dragon Rulers.

Welcome to the quickban Mega Salamence thread, so you don't have to try using Sash Noivern in OU.
Anyways, responding to snicker's post about Fire Blast not being common...the only reason it isn't seen more is because you're only hitting Whirlwind or Counter Skarm. Every other steel type is set-up bait and is promptly 2HKO minimum at +1.

 

[EmblemLord]

Since I saw a number of references to MegaMence against Ice Shard Weavile / Mamoswine / Mega Glalie, I ran them into Honko's Calc now that there's another site hosting it for now.

TL;DR: Ice Shard vs Megamence =/= checking Megamence.

Not arguing against the ridiculousness of Mega-Mence by any means, but if you're going to use Mamoswine or Weavile just for the purpose of checking Mega-Mence then you might as well go Banded. Again, the best they could do is revenge kill.

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 348-412 (105.1 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 316-376 (95.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 348-412 (93.2 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 316-376 (84.7 - 100.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 300-352 (90.6 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 300-352 (80.4 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Not arguing against the ridiculousness of Mega-Mence by any means, but if you're going to use Mamoswine or Weavile just for the purpose of checking Mega-Mence then you might as well go Banded. Again, the best they could do is revenge kill.

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 348-412 (105.1 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 316-376 (95.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 348-412 (93.2 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 316-376 (84.7 - 100.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 300-352 (90.6 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Mega-Salamence: 300-352 (80.4 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I like these calcs better, because even with 4x Choice Banded STAB priority, mega Salamence (save for Adamant Mamoswine on 0HP/0Def) is just barely OHKO-ed in most cases. Not to mention these threats are quite frail and aren't all that hard to deal with outside of mence, but that the two most reliable 'checks' just barely get the job done is a pretty good indicator of just how hard this thing is to break. Then again, you could say "Ice Shard is weak" but without priority how do you expect to hit a boosted Mence without random scarfers?

 

[Machi]

Does even need that fire coverage, he is perfectly fine with one STAB being return or frustration since he 2HKO's walls which resist him anyway after a DD.

As good as STAB Return/Frustration is no doubt that lack of coverage moves has cost games for other people, and always forces you to be cautious until you discover his set. He still remains difficult to deal with anyways regardless of what move he opts to run though, as they are mostly viable.

 

[lordkira]

I understand the subDD is amazing. But some people seem to forget the fact that something like DD+attack is ridiculous as well. My personal favorite is DD+return+fire blast+draco meteor (or some shit) to go completely cactus. It, often times, requires much status immunity attention but it fucks your checks/counters (lol counters) up.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Mmm. Hyper Voice Sylveon looks nice if u get it off.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 612-720 (184.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 474-558 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It goes through sub, forcing either a first turn attack, a switch, or sack.
EDIT: Calc specs were changed to mega mence before hand^

Again, it's a risk and a roll
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 367-433 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Subject 18 Edit: Learn to edit your posts...

 

[Elveman]

Mmm. Hyper Voice Sylveon looks nice if u get it off.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 612-720 (184.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 474-558 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It goes through sub, forcing either a first turn attack, a switch, or sack.
EDIT: Calc specs were changed to mega mence before hand^

While Sylveon can obv OHKO Salamence, neither it can switch into Salamence directly (Double-Edge OHKOs, or +1 Return OHKOs next turn) nor after kill (Salamence probably will be at +1 and OHKO with Return, or just outspeed and OHKO with DE). Either way, it's dead Sylveon