Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Lots of things are food for mega meta, if you choose to run t wave, they don't want their wincon para'd, and therefore they would be cautious of switching it in. Bringing up another point: granbull beats the other S rank mega: sableye, so keep that in mind as well.



Asking what it checks is kind of a silly question in my opinion, it checks all sorts of mons. Depending on the sets you run, it can beat lando-t, scarf and rox variants, SD to an extent if you run ice punch/roar. It beats mega gallade, mega gyarados, mega sableye, and it can switch in on crawdaunt with a neutral hit, which is no small feat. Granbull is also cool in the fact that it counters a lot of cores w/ talonflame, such as talonflame+ fighting type, or talonflame + mega dos, etc.





I may not have explained clearly enough, yes, clefable can handle heracross/gallade. Not as well, but its there. However what clefable can't do, is beat some common double physical attacker cores: heracross+ talonflame, gallade+ talonflame, etc. Before you dismiss granbull, I'd like you to reread the D ranking. It has certain niches however has many flaws which make it difficult to place on a team. It is generally outclassed by clefable, however accomplishes certain niche things that clefable can't, such as what I stated. Granbull for C may be pushing it, however I do believe granbull deserves a rating again, as it checks lots of new threats.
how the hell does granbull beat talon? rock slide?
i dont see a point in running granbull. more intimidate-relient for bulk that landog, 4mss (it wants to run play rough, t wave, heal bell, eq, ice punch, toxic)and terrible spdef make it a bad wall. it may check a lot of things, but most of them are handled better by DOUBLADE. doublade. id rather use DOUBLADE over granbull. does everything granbull does (im on mobile so i cant calc but im pretty sure granbull cant even beat sable bc will-o has more pp lmao)
 
how the hell does granbull beat talon? rock slide?
i dont see a point in running granbull. more intimidate-relient for bulk that landog, 4mss (it wants to run play rough, t wave, heal bell, eq, ice punch, toxic)and terrible spdef make it a bad wall. it may check a lot of things, but most of them are handled better by DOUBLADE. doublade. id rather use DOUBLADE over granbull. does everything granbull does (im on mobile so i cant calc but im pretty sure granbull cant even beat sable bc will-o has more pp lmao)
Oh my lord how many times do I need to explain? Granbull beats a unique set of mons that no other mon can. Doublade doesn't beat mega lop, or talonflame, and gallade's knock off makes it useless, as well as lots of other things, crawdaunt, lando-t, etc.

Also, its not quite 4mss. Its moveset is interchangable for your team's needs, almost similar to greninja, however don't get pissy about this, it's nowhere near as good as ninja.
 
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Oh my lord how many times do I need to explain? Granbull beats a unique set of mons that no other mon can. Doublade doesn't beat mega lop, or talonflame, and gallade's knock off makes it useless, as well as lots of other things, crawdaunt, lando-t, etc.
but its deadweight against like everything else? and youve suggested sd, which is such unbelievable garbage like lol. how does it beat talonflame? and it can still beat gallade lmao. in every way its outclassed as a physical wall. post some replays on how its good if you want to show how good an unranked mon is, because until we see proof, its just theorymonning. it was usable post-mawile, but its trash now.
 
but its deadweight against like everything else? and youve suggested sd, which is such unbelievable garbage like lol. how does it beat talonflame? and it can still beat gallade lmao. in every way its outclassed as a physical wall. post some replays on how its good if you want to show how good an unranked mon is, because until we see proof, its just theorymonning. it was usable post-mawile, but its trash now.
I'm sorry if you're uneducated on what a D rank means, but please do your research. It deserves D rank, because it has most of a D rank's qualities. It has a niche, however outside of that niche its generally not useful. Also, I never suggested SD, you may have been confused by what I said, when I was saying it can beat SD lando-t to an extent. It beats talonflame through rock slide. Also, so what if doublade can sort of beat gallade, it is required to lose its eviolite in the process.

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205474813
I've won several tours with my granbull team, this isn't theorymoning. I don't save my replays, so I don't have much to show for at the moment, however I can get more soon.
 
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I'm sorry if you're uneducated on what a D rank means, but please do your research. It deserves D rank, because it has most of a D rank's qualities. It has a niche, however outside of that niche its generally not useful. Also, I never suggested SD, you may have been confused by what I said, when I was saying it can beat SD lando-t to an extent. It beats talonflame through rock slide. Also, so what if doublade can sort of beat gallade, it is required to lose its eviolite in the process.

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205474813
I've won several tours with my granbull team, this isn't theorymoning. I don't save my replays, so I don't have much to show for at the moment, however I can get more soon.
No need to be so standoffish. Every single day someone nominates a shitmon for D and screams "niche!! niche!!", but guess what? Nobody is going to use Granbull, "niche" aside. I hate to sound like a broken record, but please, stop nomming stuff that nobody is ever gonna use on the basis of niches, because that's bullshit that could be applied to a shitload of Mons.

Also, MLatios should be D rank or unranked, but I've already gone over my thoughts on that, so I won't repeat myself.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
No need to be so standoffish. Every single day someone nominates a shitmon for D and screams "niche!! niche!!", but guess what? Nobody is going to use Granbull, "niche" aside. I hate to sound like a broken record, but please, stop nomming stuff that nobody is ever gonna use on the basis of niches, because that's bullshit that could be applied to a shitload of Mons.

Also, MLatios should be D rank or unranked, but I've already gone over my thoughts on that, so I won't repeat myself.
Why are you factoring usage over viability?

There are plenty of pokemon in the C ranks and even B ranks that are barely used. Granbull has a niche that nothing else has, and is decent in the meta, therefore it should be a D rank mon.

Why is Flygon D? because it is a great offensive defogger with 100% resists to all hazards. It has nothing to do with usage.
 

Thisbemyalt

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I'm sorry if you're uneducated on what a D rank means, but please do your research. It deserves D rank, because it has most of a D rank's qualities. It has a niche, however outside of that niche its generally not useful. Also, I never suggested SD, you may have been confused by what I said, when I was saying it can beat SD lando-t to an extent. It beats talonflame through rock slide. Also, so what if doublade can sort of beat gallade, it is required to lose its eviolite in the process.

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205474813
I've won several tours with my granbull team, this isn't theorymoning. I don't save my replays, so I don't have much to show for at the moment, however I can get more soon.
See Granbull may have a niche but just about every mon has a niche the real question is whether or not this niche is worthy of OU rank. Granbull is insanely easy to wear down due to lack of recovery and can not possibly run all the moves to make it as viable as you imply.
Why are you factoring usage over viability?

There are plenty of pokemon in the C ranks and even B ranks that are barely used. Granbull has a niche that nothing else has, and is decent in the meta, therefore it should be a D rank mon.

Why is Flygon D? because it is a great offensive defogger with 100% resists to all hazards. It has nothing to do with usage.
Usage is not really what he means what he means is that the title of niche can be used on anything so should we give terrible mons with one small niche a rank? Hell you know what you are right I actually like that so lets nom some things:
Sceptile, only grass type with unburden and it checks keldeo!!!
Or wait how about Slurpuff it gets belly drum and unburden nothing gets that! NICHE!! NICHE!!!

Seriously tho we need to stop anything with a niche it has to be a viable mon in comparison to others in the tier which frankly I don't believe granbull is
 
You're missing his point. He's not saying if it's not used then it's not worth putting on this list, no one's arguing that. He's saying its niche is a pointless one that doesn't warrant it earning a place in the viability rankings. People will not use it because it's shit, not it's shit because people don't use it.

EDIT: Ninja'd!
 
You're missing his point. He's not saying if it's not used then it's not worth putting on this list, no one's arguing that. He's saying its niche is a pointless one that doesn't warrant it earning a place in the viability rankings. People will not use it because it's shit, not it's shit because people don't use it.

EDIT: Ninja'd!
This is a fair point, however I don't see how his niche isn't useful. It beats common double physical attacker cores, such as talon+dos, as I've stated before. It's not a shitmob imo. People compare it to donphan, however it's much different. Donphan's only real niche is being a defensive spinner. In theory thats cool, however in practice it doesn't really help. It's not that great because it doesn't even counter much to begin with. Granbull's niche however, isn't just being a fairy type with good bulk. It's niche comes in beating common cores with one mon that nothing else can.
 
Why are you factoring usage over viability?

There are plenty of pokemon in the C ranks and even B ranks that are barely used. Granbull has a niche that nothing else has, and is decent in the meta, therefore it should be a D rank mon.

Why is Flygon D? because it is a great offensive defogger with 100% resists to all hazards. It has nothing to do with usage.
You are missing the point and rolling off clichés. I'm not gonna get too far into it, but things shouldn't be ranked purely on specific and unique roles that they can perform. For example, here is an excerpt from a recent convo I had, with a few edits:

"I could throw together a post with HP Ice/Volt Switch/Flamethrower/Giga Drain AV Eelektross and explain how it checks/counters the genies better than Manectric and isn't hard-walled by Ferrothorn/Gastro/Pert like AV Raikou, ask for it to go to D-rank, and call it a day. Nobody would consider that set for a serious team, in the same way that they will never consider *insert Mon here*"

I'm not saying things should be ranked purely based on usage, at all. What I'm saying is that things that are never really going to have any relevance and/or are never gonna be considered whilst team building should not be ranked.

Also, a couple of questions for you: have you actually tried Granbull and Flygon since their nominations? If so, how many times have you used them outside of testing? Confirmation bias could play a massive part in deciding whether or not something is actually viable/worth a team slot.
 
You are missing the point and rolling off clichés. I'm not gonna get too far into it, but things shouldn't be ranked purely on specific and unique roles that they can perform. For example, here is an excerpt from a recent convo I had, with a few edits:

"I could throw together a post with HP Ice/Volt Switch/Flamethrower/Giga Drain AV Eelektross and explain how it checks/counters the genies better than Manectric and isn't hard-walled by Ferrothorn/Gastro/Pert like AV Raikou, ask for it to go to D-rank, and call it a day. Nobody would consider that set for a serious team, in the same way that they will never consider *insert Mon here*"

I'm not saying things should be ranked purely based on usage, at all. What I'm saying is that things that are never really going to have any relevance and/or are never gonna be considered whilst team building should not be ranked.

Also, a couple of questions for you: have you actually tried Granbull and Flygon since their nominations? If so, how many times have you used them outside of testing? Confirmation bias could play a massive part in deciding whether or not something is actually viable/worth a team slot.
I've never used flygon, nor did i have any affiliation with it in my posts, however I did say that I've used it in a number of tours. I've laddered with it as well, and reached a 23-0 with that team, so the lack of testing argument isn't a great one. I do understand however, why you don't believe in granbull. Yeah, you can say any mon has a niche, but some niches are more relevant and useful than others. Granbull's niche is honestly fairly relevant, you can't really deny that. In general it's a bad mon, but take goth for example. It's generally dead weight, except for vs stall teams, depending on what set you run of course. That doesn't stop its niche from being useful though.
 
You seriously cannot have any justifiable reason towards why Venomoth is ranked in the first place. While QuiverPass looks like a niche on paper, in practice QuiverPass is one of the strategies to stop in OU, especially since Grass Types, Chesnaught and Ferrothorn in particular because they take neutral damage from Bug Buzz (which Venomoth may not always even carry because Roost is very good to have), block Sleep Powder, and Talonflame can easily take out any Venomoth with priority Brave Bird. Having +1 Special Attack and +1 Speed really does not make or break for a lot of Pokemon that would want to receive QuiverPass due to how easy it is to pressure Venomoth from successfully QuiverPass, and most well-built teams, aside from some HO teams, will not immediately fall to a common at +1 Special Attack and Speed, unless it is a wallbreaker like Landorus-I / Zard-Y or Volcarona (which can boost itself), which usually carry a number of offensive checks that can still take them out even at +1 Special Attack and Speed. Simply put, Venomoth is complete garbage, and QuiverPass is nothing but a gimmick due to how inconsistent the strategy can be. Venomoth for unranked please.
 
You seriously cannot have any justifiable reason towards why Venomoth is ranked in the first place. While QuiverPass looks like a niche on paper, in practice QuiverPass is one of the strategies to stop in OU, especially since Grass Types, Chesnaught and Ferrothorn in particular because they take neutral damage from Bug Buzz (which Venomoth may not always even carry because Roost is very good to have), block Sleep Powder, and Talonflame can easily take out any Venomoth with priority Brave Bird. Having +1 Special Attack and +1 Speed really does not make or break for a lot of Pokemon that would want to receive QuiverPass due to how easy it is to pressure Venomoth from successfully QuiverPass, and most well-built teams, aside from some HO teams, will not immediately fall to a common at +1 Special Attack and Speed, unless it is a wallbreaker like Landorus-I / Zard-Y or Volcarona (which can boost itself), which usually carry a number of offensive checks that can still take them out even at +1 Special Attack and Speed. Simply put, Venomoth is complete garbage, and QuiverPass is nothing but a gimmick due to how inconsistent the strategy can be. Venomoth for unranked please.
Even though Quiverpass might not be so good nowadays, it can still make Venomoth one of the best Bpassers in the tier becuse passing +1 Spa and Spe benefits a huge array of pokemon (like Lando-I, Starmie, Keldeo, just to give a few examples) while it has a much better type than Masquerain. So Vmoth stays in D
Plus Vmoth is BL so we have to rank it.
 

FrocoTerra

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Why is Cacturne D? This isn't a suggestion that it should be banned, I just don't see what it has to offer. A water immunity with sucker punch is all I can see it has to offer but that seems so ridiculously niche combined with relatively low offensive stats, awful speed, insanely poor defenses and 7 weaknesses.
 
Why is Cacturne D? This isn't a suggestion that it should be banned, I just don't see what it has to offer. A water immunity with sucker punch is all I can see it has to offer but that seems so ridiculously niche combined with relatively low offensive stats, awful speed, insanely poor defenses and 7 weaknesses.
trc said:
Cacturne was put in D rank because it has an interesting role as a Sash mon with Spikes / Counter / Sucker Punch / Seed Bomb which punishes Landorus-T U-turns really well and can get off a Sucker or a Spikes depending on the situation. Water Absorb is also really helpful in certain situations, though overall this is quite a difficult Pokemon to judge without seeing it in practise yourself, though I'm sure Ox the Box will be happy to answer any questions about it ^_^
Is it possible to link Cacturne to the post explaining why he's ranked because I think this is like the third time someone's asked in less than a week and his role is not particularly obvious
 
In regards of M-Latios, I am not saying that it should go unranked directly, but to be honest I don't see what niche or even why would someone would use it, all his sets are outclassed, his best set(Calm Mind as far as I remember) is better used by M-Latias(who has superior bulk to pull it more consistenetly), DDance sets are not worth it, and all atacker or support sets are better done by regular his non-mega form.

Heck even Venomoth has the niche of being a ''Quiver Dancer Baton Passer'' something only it can do in the meta.

Lets take M-Steelix for example, is a mon that is outclassed by M-Aggron in its role, M-Latios has a similar case in that every one of the sets it has it is outclassed by other mons, and even worse, some of them are better used by its regular form.

When the opportunity cost of a Mega also includes(set dependant) not being able to use its base form aside from occupying a Mega slot, it should be considered why its not at most at C-.
 
In regards of M-Latios, I am not saying that it should go unranked directly, but to be honest I don't see what niche or even why would someone would use it, all his sets are outclassed, his best set(Calm Mind as far as I remember) is better used by M-Latias(who has superior bulk to pull it more consistenetly), DDance sets are not worth it, and all atacker or support sets are better done by regular his non-mega form.

Heck even Venomoth has the niche of being a ''Quiver Dancer Baton Passer'' something only it can do in the meta.

Lets take M-Steelix for example, is a mon that is outclassed by M-Aggron in its role, M-Latios has a similar case in that every one of the sets it has it is outclassed by other mons, and even worse, some of them are better used by its regular form.

When the opportunity cost of a Mega also includes(set dependant) not being able to use its base form aside from occupying a Mega slot, it should be considered why its not at most at C-.
The only thing that I can think of for mega Latios is that it's a better lure than base latios. Not a great niche, but it's enough to make a viable mon not completely outclassed in my honest opinion.
 
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Albacore

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Not saying I agree or disagree with this; but out of curiosity, what advantage does this hold over the CM set for Mega Latias, who arguably has a much easier time setting up and staying alive? I get immediate power; but surely Mega Latias would make up for that by being able to set up more Calm Minds easier than Latios?
It's mainly offensive presence which makes MTios better than MTias at an offensive CM set. Specifically, the ability to hit a lot of checks like Bisharp hard with +1 Draco Meteor. If you're going for an offensive CM set I honestly see no reason to use MLatias over MLatios since extra power matters a lot more than extra bulk on this kind of set.
 
It's mainly offensive presence which makes MTios better than MTias at an offensive CM set. Specifically, the ability to hit a lot of checks like Bisharp hard with +1 Draco Meteor. If you're going for an offensive CM set I honestly see no reason to use MLatias over MLatios since extra power matters a lot more than extra bulk on this kind of set.
The thing is the mega latias only has 20 points less in special attack and has points in bulk for every wasted point mega latios has in attack and the extra 20 from the special attack. It's just so much more bulky that it's more worthwhile in most situations. Random calcs:

+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 240-283 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 265-313 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not a big enough power difference in my honest opinion.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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The thing is the mega latias only has 20 points less in special attack and has points in bulk for every wasted point mega latios has in attack and the extra 20 from the special attack. It's just so much more bulky that it's more worthwhile in most situations. Random calcs:

+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 240-283 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 265-313 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not a big enough power difference in my honest opinion.
Not that Snorlax is viable in OU, but I think I'll take a guaranteed 2HKO over a <50% chance to 2HKO.
 
Not that Snorlax is viable in OU, but I think I'll take a guaranteed 2HKO over a <50% chance to 2HKO.
Both 2HKO the snorlax with psyshock and wouldn't 2HKO with draco because of the drop anyway. If you want immediate power life orb CM latios provides it, if you want extra bulk mega latias provides it. Even as an offensive calm minder it struggles to find an actual niche. But what my calcs should have shown was that the difference in power is so minute between latios and latias megas that most of the time you aren't missing any 2HKOs by using latias and the huge jump in physical bulk especially is huge for it's viability over mega latios allowing it to setup more than 1 calm mind in most situations.
 
I'd like to nominate Lucario to drop to C+, because in the ORAS OU Metagame it's niche is much smaller than previously.
Lucario faces many issues in the current metagame - the three most popular megas all check/counter it(M-Meta can switch in once, M-Lop has a decent chance not to be killed by a +2 Extremespeed and can revenge it otherwise, and M-Sableye almost completely counters it), and there is little incentive to use it as a win condition as most teams are carrying one of the above three.

Lando-T is also everywhere, and can easily check Lucario(especially if Scarfed) - despite Greninja leaving the tier, Lucario's speed tier leaves it wanting(especially since it has to run Adamant to hit hard enough), and the rise in Extremespeed immunities/resists means it can no longer spam ESpeed against faster opponents.

Furthermore, Lucario is hardly bulky and has a hard time setting up SD since most unboosted attacks are doing a ton(if not KOing) Lucario, and for the above reasons I believe Lucario no longer holds a niche worthy of B- in the current metagame.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Both 2HKO the snorlax with psyshock and wouldn't 2HKO with draco because of the drop anyway. If you want immediate power life orb CM latios provides it, if you want extra bulk mega latias provides it. Even as an offensive calm minder it struggles to find an actual niche. But what my calcs should have shown was that the difference in power is so minute between latios and latias megas that most of the time you aren't missing any 2HKOs by using latias and the huge jump in physical bulk especially is huge for it's viability over mega latios allowing it to setup more than 1 calm mind in most situations.
Actually, what your calcs proved is that even a minute difference in power can be significant. For example, Offensive CM Mega Latias has a near nonexistent chance to 2HKO Chansey with +1 Psyshock, while Mega Latios actually has a pretty legit chance to 2HKO Chansey with +1 Psyshock.

+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 304-358 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
 
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