Fairies arent the only counters, and its not as though you are forced to run obscure mons to beat it. There are plenty of sets that have developed recently to beat stall in general (sub DD Mega Gyarados, for example), and they arent just crappy mons/ sets that only beat MegaEye. The presence of Mega Sableye has encouraged creativity in team building, if anything.
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ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion
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Sub DD Mega Gyarados is a not a good example, it was also used in XY, now it just runs Crunch over Earthquake and it happens to match up well against some Sableye stall teams despite being still shut down by stuff like Chesnaught. And it can't switch into Sableye anyway. A better example could be Spdef SD Gliscor, but this isn't just an example of creativity, it's an adaptation that the presence of Sableye forces. And SD Gliscor can't break Unaware users, so I'd say it's a worse stallbreaker if compared to the old "pre-Sableye" Taunt set.
But that's not even the point. You quoted the part where i said that Sableye having counters is not an argument, and replied saying it has counters, when I didn't even say it doesn't have those :/
Let me reiterate then
Emphasis mine.
Why not just ban the move + boosts? Because you want to avoid complex bans? Smeargle has some (if very little) use outside of baton pass, and scolipede can be threatening with the life orb set, or the dual spikes set. If we were to ban both of these, it would just encourage BP teams to use other BPers (like Gorebyss, as was shown in a replay), and would be a temporary solution at best. Yes, those are the two most broken ones to use right now, but getting rid of the most powerful users of the strategy in no way cripples the person using that type of stratagy, removes the availability of those two pokemon for those who want to use either of them for non-baton pass reasons. Funbro isn't quite the same, but we didn't ban Slowbro due to it, and we shouldn't ignore the problem and ban the users of the problem in this instance either.
Also, why would Mega-Sableye get banned over something like Mega-Metagross? It is a centralising force in the metagame, however I dont really know why it's considered either broken or bad for the metagame. It has caused the number of playstyles used on the ladder to increase in variety, and if you can get swept easily by a sableye it is as bad teambuilding as being swept by a charizard-x was in XY. Also, while it is very bulky, it finds it hard to switch into things as most attacks are 2khos after stealth rocks, which it can't easily keep away due to the stealth rock setters having adapted to beat sableye.
As I've stated earlier, the replay WECAMEASROMANS posted proved jack squat. Literally all it showed was that a lucky crit can end a CM war and win the game. This happens all the time with non-broken/uncompetitive mons and proves absolutely nothing. Had his espeon not gotten a crit on his opponent's m-sableye, m-sableye would have easily wrecked his entire team.
The difference between Funbro and BP is that funbro was actually uncompetitive in the purest sense of the word. Funbro created a win condition that had absolutely nothing to do with the game itself, which is about as competitive as unplugging your opponent's controller in a fighting game tournament.
BP, on the other hand, is simply the act of taking boosts legitimately obtained by one pokemon and giving them to another. Under most circumstances, the BPer would actually be at a disadvantage because they have to spend a turn using "baton pass" in addition to the boosts they accumulated, meaning that in a boost war, their opponent would have a full extra turn to build an advantage over the BP user (whether he does that by attacking, grabbing an extra boost or subbing). There is no inherit uncompetitiveness in this action. It doesn't introduce RNG elements, it doesn't take away options from the opponent, it doesn't in any way give the user an unfair advantage...
Unless the passer was in fact broken.
It is a well known fact that Smeargle in particular has access to ludicrous boosting moves that have no place anywhere in OU, especially not on a mon capable of handing those boosts to whatever he pleased. Therefore, I stand by my case that individual mon bans are the best way to go.
Hello people,
I'll write just a few words about baton pass and then, when i have time, i'll speak about other things.
Anyway I really don't get why we are spending days speaking here of which is the best way to get rid of these cancerpasses. Don't get me wrong, everyone, more or less, is getting the point, but we are really going away from the problem. I try to explain now :--)
Almost everyone here agree that smeargle and scolipede are broken and probably need to go, but the problem of which ban is the most appropriate is afflicting us too much. Yes, a unique solution would be appreciate in order to not let the problem be a problem again in the future, but, as far as what is written here, i think that We can easily proceed to suspect Smeargle and Scolipede (this way we temporarly but fastly solve the problem) and then find a way to analyze which are the characteristics that make the pokemon who uses this strategy broken. (as suggested by WebBowser) I red a lot, for example, on Gorebyss and other mons here, but it seems to me that we are trying to explain things in so many different ways that the entire topic (baton pass) is becoming more and more confusionary.
The matter is that people here are speaking of:
1: only about smeargle and scolipede
2: of baton pass as a whole
3: of the other passer such as gorebyss and mew
4: of what characteristics has to have the passer
5: of what makes smeargle and scoli broken and so on
This got me so confused on this task and I think many people are just speaking to other talking about different things of a bigger topic (baton pass in general). Sorry for my words, my english is bad and i hope you got my point.
That being said i give my opinion:
1) smeargle and scoli are suspect whorty right now, I don't know the priority of other suspect whorty mons but i surely, sooner i hope, would see a suspect of this too mon and then maybe see how the meta evolve after the ban if happens
2) it would be a good idea trying to make a general rule to make easier find other broken mons for this strategy, in order to not let pass to much time if we find other broken cancerpass mons. Other than this, we can try to find a complex ban (but, of course, in the future, with the main problem of these days solved)
This can give us a fast solution of the problem that we have now and, in perspective, will give a long-period oriented solution for new cases for this strategy.
N.B sorry if I posted some idiot ideas, i do not post often, i'm surely less experienced of most of you and i'm only trying to give my contribute. Have a good day people!
I'll write just a few words about baton pass and then, when i have time, i'll speak about other things.
Anyway I really don't get why we are spending days speaking here of which is the best way to get rid of these cancerpasses. Don't get me wrong, everyone, more or less, is getting the point, but we are really going away from the problem. I try to explain now :--)
Almost everyone here agree that smeargle and scolipede are broken and probably need to go, but the problem of which ban is the most appropriate is afflicting us too much. Yes, a unique solution would be appreciate in order to not let the problem be a problem again in the future, but, as far as what is written here, i think that We can easily proceed to suspect Smeargle and Scolipede (this way we temporarly but fastly solve the problem) and then find a way to analyze which are the characteristics that make the pokemon who uses this strategy broken. (as suggested by WebBowser) I red a lot, for example, on Gorebyss and other mons here, but it seems to me that we are trying to explain things in so many different ways that the entire topic (baton pass) is becoming more and more confusionary.
The matter is that people here are speaking of:
1: only about smeargle and scolipede
2: of baton pass as a whole
3: of the other passer such as gorebyss and mew
4: of what characteristics has to have the passer
5: of what makes smeargle and scoli broken and so on
This got me so confused on this task and I think many people are just speaking to other talking about different things of a bigger topic (baton pass in general). Sorry for my words, my english is bad and i hope you got my point.
That being said i give my opinion:
1) smeargle and scoli are suspect whorty right now, I don't know the priority of other suspect whorty mons but i surely, sooner i hope, would see a suspect of this too mon and then maybe see how the meta evolve after the ban if happens
2) it would be a good idea trying to make a general rule to make easier find other broken mons for this strategy, in order to not let pass to much time if we find other broken cancerpass mons. Other than this, we can try to find a complex ban (but, of course, in the future, with the main problem of these days solved)
This can give us a fast solution of the problem that we have now and, in perspective, will give a long-period oriented solution for new cases for this strategy.
N.B sorry if I posted some idiot ideas, i do not post often, i'm surely less experienced of most of you and i'm only trying to give my contribute. Have a good day people!
Now it seems everybody is in agreement that Geopass and Quickpass are broken, but have a hard time deciding how to ban it. Banning baton pass outright is a horrible idea. Celebi and sylveon use it to avoid pursuit trapping and gaining momentum respectively. Banning baton pass+boosting move is also not a good solution because NastyPass celebi is a valid and nonbeliever strategy. Smeargle and Scolipede are not broken in and of themselves, it is their BP that is broken. I advise a complex ban of BP+The most common passers. This allows these passers to stay in other niches, and doesn't restrict the legit purposes of baton pass. It is also a lot more efficient than just banning smeargle and Scolipede because they have other roles, not to mention other less common passers that would see play (see: gorebyss). However, if we ban baton pass+gorebyss/smeargle/Scolipede these pokes can still fulfill roles in their respective niches (not sure what gorebyss' is lol). If im missing anything feel free to point it out.
*edit* add mew in with these passers, capable of passing boosts like *edit 2* amnesia and barrier, as well as packing utility. Lol forgot it doesn't get geomancy, don't kill me lol
*edit* add mew in with these passers, capable of passing boosts like *edit 2* amnesia and barrier, as well as packing utility. Lol forgot it doesn't get geomancy, don't kill me lol
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Mew can't learn Geomancy and I don't think it can learn Cotton Guard
Costi I agree that this thread is hitting a ton of different topics and that it can be quite difficult to keep track of them all. Part of that is my fault in that I'm trying to do about 5 things at once on the same topic, so I apologize for that. You actually managed to surmise the BP debate quite well.
More relevantly, I keep hearing arguments along the lines of "Don't ban Smeargle/Scolipede, they're only broken with BP". There are a lot of ubers where if you removed a key move, they would be balanced or even quite healthy in OU. The example I like to use is U-Turn Genesect. Without U-Turn, Genesect loses his ability to deal respectable damage and pivot in the same turn, which was a massive part of why he was broken. Without U-Turn, he would be perfectly OU viable and even pretty strong with Shift Gear and his incredible special movepool (but not broken, base 99 speed and meh phys movepool will ensure that). Shall we ban U-Turn + Genesect to free him? After all, it won't affect any of the other perfectly viable u-turners in OU, and we get to keep one of the coolest mons in the entire game with us!
"I forgot it doesn't get geomancy"... There's a sentence I never thought I would see.
More relevantly, I keep hearing arguments along the lines of "Don't ban Smeargle/Scolipede, they're only broken with BP". There are a lot of ubers where if you removed a key move, they would be balanced or even quite healthy in OU. The example I like to use is U-Turn Genesect. Without U-Turn, Genesect loses his ability to deal respectable damage and pivot in the same turn, which was a massive part of why he was broken. Without U-Turn, he would be perfectly OU viable and even pretty strong with Shift Gear and his incredible special movepool (but not broken, base 99 speed and meh phys movepool will ensure that). Shall we ban U-Turn + Genesect to free him? After all, it won't affect any of the other perfectly viable u-turners in OU, and we get to keep one of the coolest mons in the entire game with us!
I want to address a couple things that people have been debating about lately with my opinions on the matter.
Mega Sableye:
The no-ban argument saying it has no counters is basically bullcrap. Let me quote this directly from ginganigga in the suspect thread etiquette thread:
Shadow Tag NOT GOTHITELLE:
I personally think that shadow tag should be banned because it is extremely uncompetitive and requires basically no skill to use and is cancerous. You can be forced into lose/lose situations where you either get rid of your only hope against a sweeper that is left or let gothitelle destroy your team. It takes away one of the most integral parts of the metagame: switching. If you want to respond with an argument to this being flat uncompetitive I challenge you to.
Baton pass:
Since most people think that boosting pass is the broken part of this move, I just think that smeargle+baton pass and scolipede+baton pass should both be banned. Baton pass requires no skill to use, and very poor players can win using this strategy. Smeargle just has to come in on a slow Pokemon and put it to sleep the first turn, then it has to click geomancy to win the game. Scolipede basically has to come in on the right mon and click SD, then protect and baton pass in the following turns to pass 2 dragon dances to any team mate to make it OP. I honestly hope that this strategy is banned because it is more cancerous than it has ever been.
Talonflame:
The biggest thing that is a problem with Talonflame is that it can only switch in once or twice before it dies unless it has hazard clearing support, and that support can't always be provided if the opponent provides enough offensive pressure or has bisharp in case of a defogger. Talonflame can also be walled by basically any physically bulky rock or water type, and Heatran. The counters argument actually is significantly more viable with Talonflame because it can only switch out against a counter one time before it becomes death fodder, assuming that it has no attack damage on it. Talonflame is an excellent threat and many Pokemon would be better if it was not in the meta, but it isn't powerful or cancerous enough to ban.
These are just a few of my opinions on common discussion topics, and I may add a few if I forgot something that people are debating about.
Mega Sableye:
The no-ban argument saying it has no counters is basically bullcrap. Let me quote this directly from ginganigga in the suspect thread etiquette thread:
Mega sableye has plenty of counters, but it still is extremely overcentralzing, making certain Pokemon plummet in usagw such as mega gallade because they are shit against megaeye unless they use gimmicks(skill swap). Clefable is a counter to many common sets, but there are 5 other team members that can deal with it. Heatran + megaeye is a super common stall core that basically deals with all the fairy types that plague megaeye bar azumarill, and it can be burned by both of those mons, rendering it practically useless. Most smart stall players can add a couple mons to deal with sableye's checks and counters very easily and still have several slots to use because it's so good. In my opinion, mega sableye isn't broken, but it is definitely overcentralyzing enough to warrant a suspect test and a possible ban. Sure it isn't as borked as the 2 mons that have been banned in ORAS so far, but it is still suspect worthy mon and the meta would be significantly more healthy anyways.
Shadow Tag NOT GOTHITELLE:
I personally think that shadow tag should be banned because it is extremely uncompetitive and requires basically no skill to use and is cancerous. You can be forced into lose/lose situations where you either get rid of your only hope against a sweeper that is left or let gothitelle destroy your team. It takes away one of the most integral parts of the metagame: switching. If you want to respond with an argument to this being flat uncompetitive I challenge you to.
Baton pass:
Since most people think that boosting pass is the broken part of this move, I just think that smeargle+baton pass and scolipede+baton pass should both be banned. Baton pass requires no skill to use, and very poor players can win using this strategy. Smeargle just has to come in on a slow Pokemon and put it to sleep the first turn, then it has to click geomancy to win the game. Scolipede basically has to come in on the right mon and click SD, then protect and baton pass in the following turns to pass 2 dragon dances to any team mate to make it OP. I honestly hope that this strategy is banned because it is more cancerous than it has ever been.
Talonflame:
The biggest thing that is a problem with Talonflame is that it can only switch in once or twice before it dies unless it has hazard clearing support, and that support can't always be provided if the opponent provides enough offensive pressure or has bisharp in case of a defogger. Talonflame can also be walled by basically any physically bulky rock or water type, and Heatran. The counters argument actually is significantly more viable with Talonflame because it can only switch out against a counter one time before it becomes death fodder, assuming that it has no attack damage on it. Talonflame is an excellent threat and many Pokemon would be better if it was not in the meta, but it isn't powerful or cancerous enough to ban.
These are just a few of my opinions on common discussion topics, and I may add a few if I forgot something that people are debating about.
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littlelucario Honestly, SD scolipede isn't a real issue. Scoli is pretty frail without ID boosts and can be 1 shotted by a lot of common pokemon. More importantly, there is nothing stopping you from setting up along-side Scolipede. Compare SD scoli to DD zard-x for example:
Scoli:
turn 1: SD
turn 2: sub/protect
turn 3: BP
Zard-X:
turn 1: DD(let's say he predicted turn 1 protect)
turn 2: DD
turn 3: Smack subs away/smack swap in (which will probably get one shotted, because +2 zard-x does that)
At this point, it pretty much comes down to who is faster, the BP recipiant or zard (they are both sitting at +2 Atk and +2 speed, and are prolly capable at ohkoing eachother).
SD Scoli isn't an issue because Scoli is pretty frail without defense boosts, and most recipients can't take heavy hits either. What pushes Scolipede into "maybe broken" territory is his ID set, which allows him to setup in front of some pretty scary stuff.
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 250-296 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Granted, even with ID he can't take special hits worth anything, but one does not simply ignore tanking an SE 180 BP STAB.
Note that CB Vic kills +2 scoli fairly easily, so don't try to setup in front of Victini (made that mistake a few times... feel free to laugh at me for thinking it was a good idea)
Scoli:
turn 1: SD
turn 2: sub/protect
turn 3: BP
Zard-X:
turn 1: DD(let's say he predicted turn 1 protect)
turn 2: DD
turn 3: Smack subs away/smack swap in (which will probably get one shotted, because +2 zard-x does that)
At this point, it pretty much comes down to who is faster, the BP recipiant or zard (they are both sitting at +2 Atk and +2 speed, and are prolly capable at ohkoing eachother).
SD Scoli isn't an issue because Scoli is pretty frail without defense boosts, and most recipients can't take heavy hits either. What pushes Scolipede into "maybe broken" territory is his ID set, which allows him to setup in front of some pretty scary stuff.
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 250-296 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Granted, even with ID he can't take special hits worth anything, but one does not simply ignore tanking an SE 180 BP STAB.
Note that CB Vic kills +2 scoli fairly easily, so don't try to setup in front of Victini (made that mistake a few times... feel free to laugh at me for thinking it was a good idea)
ok, while letting the BP argument play out Ive noticed a lot of people are adamant about keeping boosting move + baton pass in the game, the only reasoning behind their thought process being "My Celebi/Togekiss/whatever likes to use boostpass." Its largely undisputed that drypassing is not broken, its the fact that a small group of mons are able to pass boosts to mons that cannot get those boosts otherwise and can sweep using those boosts. Its this reason why people are so divided on what to do, banning Scolipede and Smeargle might solve the problem temporarily, but BP has been shown to adapt, forcing continuous debate, all just to preserve boostpassing. Baton Pass+Boosting move creates an environment where something deemed balanced in normal circumstances becomes an unstoppable force because its recieving moves it wasnt intended to be given, think of it as a mon like M-Metagross (although less potentially broken) getting Shift Gear, broken right?. While some mons pass may better than others, the fact remains that every single mon that's able to pass boosts has the potential to turn an ordinarily balanced mon into an unstoppable force. For this reason Im urging the community to decide that removing Boosting Move + Baton Pass is the only way to remove any way of Geopass existing. We've already tried to make it a fair aspect of the game, that didnt work. The only collateral damage banning Boostpass has is it prevents mons like Celebi from passing to potentially broken mons with the boosts, none of you can seriously say that something like a +6 Scarfed Keldeo is anywhere near balanced, even if that situation is unlikely to actually happen in a match between to evenly matched opponents, unless the whole team is dedicated to letting that happen, i.e. something akin to Geopass.
I don't think that we should be conducting policy on the premise of "what if." If it is a problem, that is the time it should be dealt with. If Baton Pass turns out to be a future problem, it should be dealt with at that time, not with preemptive solutions. The cleanest solution from an objectivity standpoint and a policy making stand point is to ban Smeargle and Scolipede, and I don't see any convincing arguments refuting what WebBowser has suggested. I'm pretty sure people are opting against this because these two Pokemon have been seemingly underwhelming for quite a bit of time and the idea of banning them seems out of place.
If we ever get a mon with shift gear + BP then we'll deal with that. As I've argued before, in general a BPer is actually inferior to your typical booster because the BPer has to give his opponent's team a free turn in order to use "baton pass", while your typical booster can start firing off attacks immediately. Therefore, you need a darn good booster/receiver to make up for that 1 turn disadvantage. While it is true that every single mon that can pass boosts can turn a mon into an "unstoppable force", that pretty much holds true for any boosting sweeper. For example, if you give Zard-X 2 or 3 turns to DD up, I can assure you that you would be hard pressed to avoid getting swept. In fact, not terribly long ago I faced bludz on the ladder and carelessly let his Bisharp get to +4. The sweep came shortly after when I realized that even with reflect up, nothing I had could take a sucker punch.
Sooo legit question, has anyone here seen ID Scolipede used and/or used it themselves as of late?(besides me that is) I ask this because I've been laddering for the past several days and I've noticed that despite my best efforts to adapt to the new meta, I struggle to break 1600 elo. Half of me wants to write this off as me being bad at the game, but the other half of me is unable to help but to note that the ladder seems extremely well prepared to punish me whenever I try to send out scoli to ID up. I've been finding that things like NP Houndoom, RP Lando-I, and virtually any mega Diancie set to be very difficult to swap into and despite my best efforts, I cannot seem to prepare for them all or remove them before trying to setup.
So I ask this: Besides the arguments I have posted, does anyone here have a legitimate reason to believe that Scolipede is broken?
Note that my opinion on Smeargle and BP in general remain unchanged, I still think that individual mon bans are the way to go, and Smeargle has been repeatedly shown to be utterly stupid (by far better players then myself).
Im not talking about "what if" situation. Baton Pass teams have an infinite amount of things they can substitute in place of certain mons, its not hard at all to find a new passer which might not be as good, but itll still work under the same uncompetetive premise as all previous iterations of Geopass. Its the same scenario as if we banned Excadrill (not even remotely saying drill is broken btw), people could use Sandslash, the only reason they didnt before said ban was because drill is better.
The fact remains that any team centered around baton passing to another mon (note by this that I do not mean a single mon like Nastypass Celebi passing without any support like screens, memento, etc.) is inherently uncompetetive and completely based off team matchup. It doesnt matter who the passer is, Smeargle and Scolipede just happen to be the best. The "cleanest" solution, as you so eloquently put it, is not to have multiple suspects that each take roughly a month each time something new is discovered, its when theres a solution that removes any way of baton pass being broken. In the strictest terms, that's banning BP itself, but banning Boostpass has the exact same effect while only taking out the broken part of BP.
WebBowser The problem with that is that BPing stat boosts lets you come in with absolutely no damage, while a mon setting up by itself has to find a way to set up without losing all its health. The only time the situation you're referring to is correct is when another mon is boosting alongside you, which in a dedicated passing team situation, are dealt with by screens and memento if they start boosting straight away, or end up a turn behind because they have to switch in first.
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I do not think that m-Sableye isn't worthy of a suspect test. With all these faries out there, there are plenty of ways to stop it. Magic Guard Clefable can almost completely wall it, as the priority Will-O-Wisp-induced burn won't do any damage, and fairy typing ruins the former non-super effective weakness advantage that sableye had without fairies. As to M-Metagross, I do think that it's a good pokemon all round, but there are, again, plenty of suitable, viable counters that can be on a team for more than just a metagross check. The reason I think that Greninja should be/is rightfully in Ubers is because of the fact that it need specific pokemon to counter it, at least if it's run right. That isn't the case with M-Metagross. Scarfed Landorus-T can almost completely wall it, or basically any fire type with some sort of bult can counter it. Concerning GeoPass, first of all, there aren't many pokemon that can run that set at the same time in the OU tier (The only one I've seen is Smeargle) and it isn't worthy of a susbect test. And if these pokemon are carted off to ubers, I really don't see where the divide from Ubers and OU would stand. Moving these pokemon would blur that divide further, and I don't think that that is healthy for this metagame.
Sebberball
formerly BoXeD
the post greninja era in my opinion is amazing, geo-pass full BP teams have been nice, the moving of greninja to ubers has made alot more pokemon viable (mainly azumarill and IMO Thundy-T)
You should probably read this post on Mega Sableye, 1~54RRR.
Anywho, I'd actually like to see Baton Pass move suspected. Thought of this when the BP complex suspect thing was going on. The whole team archetype with Screens and/or Whimsicott is that much of pain to deal with. We have more than a hundred other things to prepare for. There just isn't enough room to intentionally build a team that beats it. Good players just don't prepare for it and that's why the BP teams exist: to pray on match up for an easy way out. Tried removing it twice before, but ya gotta cut it at the root.What are we going to do, wait for someone to win a tour match with a Pikachu team before this goes?
Also I don't care 'bout your "muh Nasty Plot+Baton Pass Celebi ain't broken". Collateral damage is just that. It's for the good ofhumanity the metagame. Besides, I can't use Swagger Rattata anymore, so there's that /rant
Edit: Or, at the posts below this one, we can just assume it's the move that's broken and get rid of it without making this so complicated
Edit 2: For RoyalDispenser: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/
Anywho, I'd actually like to see Baton Pass move suspected. Thought of this when the BP complex suspect thing was going on. The whole team archetype with Screens and/or Whimsicott is that much of pain to deal with. We have more than a hundred other things to prepare for. There just isn't enough room to intentionally build a team that beats it. Good players just don't prepare for it and that's why the BP teams exist: to pray on match up for an easy way out. Tried removing it twice before, but ya gotta cut it at the root.
Also I don't care 'bout your "muh Nasty Plot+Baton Pass Celebi ain't broken". Collateral damage is just that. It's for the good of
Edit: Or, at the posts below this one, we can just assume it's the move that's broken and get rid of it without making this so complicated
Edit 2: For RoyalDispenser: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/
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We already have a 'complex' ban that got rid of the six-mon baton pass teams, I don't see why we couldn't replace it with another 'complex' ban that avoids the collateral.
Baton Pass can't be used by a Pokemon that has more than six positive stat boosts.
Wow that's simple. Change it to five if Smashpass and/or Quiver Dance+Cotton Guard Smeargle are seriously a problem.
What about banning the use of baton pass with more than one type of stat boost? That would effectively ban Geopass and Iron Defense+Speed Boost Scolipede, while saving dry passers, nasty pass, and other not-broken stuff.
If you take a standard Geopass team with its Smeargle+Espeon core and 4 support pokemon, and replace the core with a powerful boosting sweeper instead, the former team is a problem and the latter is not. As WebBowser has said a couple of times, the difference between the two is that some baton passers are far more efficient at boosting their stats than any sweeper, and that's what makes them broken. Limiting baton pass to only one type of stat boost means that only the "inefficient" stat boosters can baton pass, which should be fine.
It would save Scolipede and Smeargle (and maybe let us retest Blaziken at some point? idk). We can also remove the 1 BP user per team restriction we have now, because obviously chain passing is pointless if you can't get more than 1 type of boost.
It seems Sergeant Spooky came up with something very similar when I was writing this. Which means that we're on to something...right?
If you take a standard Geopass team with its Smeargle+Espeon core and 4 support pokemon, and replace the core with a powerful boosting sweeper instead, the former team is a problem and the latter is not. As WebBowser has said a couple of times, the difference between the two is that some baton passers are far more efficient at boosting their stats than any sweeper, and that's what makes them broken. Limiting baton pass to only one type of stat boost means that only the "inefficient" stat boosters can baton pass, which should be fine.
It would save Scolipede and Smeargle (and maybe let us retest Blaziken at some point? idk). We can also remove the 1 BP user per team restriction we have now, because obviously chain passing is pointless if you can't get more than 1 type of boost.
It seems Sergeant Spooky came up with something very similar when I was writing this. Which means that we're on to something...right?
Not really considering the majority of time the most stat boost scolipedes pass is 4. 2 Speed boost, one iron defense. It solves geopass but not scolipede.
EDIT: Bychance does anybody have the usage stats for scolipede and smeargle last month? I'm curious.
EDIT: Bychance does anybody have the usage stats for scolipede and smeargle last month? I'm curious.
RoyalDispenser
1695 stats
| 74 | Scolipede | 1.68856% |
| 98 | Smeargle | 0.87871% |
1825 stats
| 81 | Scolipede | 1.08738% |
| 120 | Smeargle | 0.36667% |
1695 stats
| 74 | Scolipede | 1.68856% |
| 98 | Smeargle | 0.87871% |
1825 stats
| 81 | Scolipede | 1.08738% |
| 120 | Smeargle | 0.36667% |
this is getting out the point. baton pass is a legitimate strategy, and it DOES require skill if you want to avoid the multiple priority users that can smack it and you must do it really fast to avoid a defense-piercing crit ruining your baton passer (when it was 3-6 passers substitute prevented this, but with only one passer, you have no room for it). you see smeargle or scolipede? send your own sweeper quickly and boost alongside it. you have the benefit of smeargle's frailty (a lum berry, taunt or substitute of your own will be necessary, yes, but those moves aren't precisely situational, gyarados, talonflame, dragonite, and many others commonly carry one those to shit better on stall) and scolipede's mediocre attacking potential. you run stall? well, Unaware users quagsire and clefable are pretty usefull ATM, it's not like you are wasting a moveslot (remember the taunt users i just commented? quagsire shits on all them with scald).
let's say the oponent carries the denispass and memento trolls your sweeper... oh wait, substitute also blocks this move! and SD users can simply ignore the drop by boosting again, while whimiscott, the onl prankster memento user, is one-shoted by the premier SD cleaner in the metagame with his own priority move.
let's say the oponent carries the denispass and memento trolls your sweeper... oh wait, substitute also blocks this move! and SD users can simply ignore the drop by boosting again, while whimiscott, the onl prankster memento user, is one-shoted by the premier SD cleaner in the metagame with his own priority move.
Just pointing out, Whimsicott outspeeds and can encore the opponent into the stat boosting move via Prankster. In addition, the pokemon doesn't faint if Sub blocks the Memento iirc, so its still alive, and it can encore you into Sub.
substitute is not the best move to set up on, remember the "counter" section of BW wobbuffet? "if your pokemon cannot avoid be trapped, just go for the move least exploitable to be set up on, like the screens, leech seed or substitute". sub will almot guarantee a free turn to KO the opponent.
about stored power, calm mind exists on clefable
about stored power, calm mind exists on clefable
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