np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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Couldn't access my old account. Turns out hotmail wiped out my previous e-mail so no more 2K+ post count for me.
Anyway, voting for ban. Noting beforehand so I can avoid obvious calcs. Yes, this thing can be easily checked.
Things people think counter but really don't

mSlowbro
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mSableye
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 192-226 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Things in OU that do counter

84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 112-132 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(assuming they stay in)
252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Only two counters currently that don't become dead weight on the team. I've been involved in the metagame since the days of Shoddy. Relying on Burn, Toxic, and something like Whirlwind to save your team from something as unhealthy as this is poisonous to the metagame. ToxicStall and BurnStall should never be an option for countering something. Yes, this thing can be checked but then again, so was Aegislash, Greninja, mKangaskhan, mMawile, and so on so forth honestly. The check argument gets old real fast. I would love for this thing to stay in the metagame but sadly I don't think this can happen.

Does mMetagross benefit the metagame? To a degree, yes. It can check many Fairies and counter others as well. However, Heatran, Scizor, Magnezone, and such do the same as well. Does this Pokemon prevent others from being used? As much as other Pokemon in the current tier do to each other, yes. That is the natural order of things if I recall correctly. As said previously, mMetagross pretty much gives us the Greninja effect all over again. You don't know what set it's running. It can run over your team either way. Voting ban honestly.

EDIT: Noticed BB code has been done away with. The hell.
EDIT: For the sake of ruining the arguments of others
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 340-404 (96 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I honestly don't even know why I bothered listing Skarmory. It can't damage mMetagross to save its life.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Shame Landorus-T gets outsped, eh?
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 238-280 (87.5 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 288-342 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 314-370 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is a little late, but I think this is important to clarify.

I get your point, but you missed some seriously important points. Mainly missed some EVs/ most likely situations.
For example, megabro isn't going to switch in unless it KNOWS you aren't running gk; it's not like it's exactly a novelty move at this point. Megagross is going to have to switch in, probably at +1. Suddenly the tables have turned against Megagross. Also, I am pretty sure no one runs 0 SpD on Megabro, just saying.
Next problem: Gyarados, if smart, won't mega evolve immediately to avoid getting hit by a SE gk or hammer arm. The only move that could hit it for SE damage would be thunderpunch, but Megagross is at -1 attack. Gyarados uses DD, THEN mega evolves, outspeeds, and ohko's w/ crunch.

It's a long post with a lot of calcs that i don't want to go through and rip apart, but you get the idea. Megagross is better on paper than in reality.
 
Just putting it out there, a single layer of spikes are to Metagross what Stealth Rocks / Sand are to Dragonite in terms of losing bulk. All those OHKOs that it narrowly avoids because of its "monstrous" bulk are all of a sudden likely KOs. This includes hits from things like Lando-T, MManectric, and Sash lead Mamo. Assuming it's running a hasty nature (which is necessary if you want to run the not-walled-by-bulky-waters set with GK), this list opens up even more to include things like Scarf Chomp, Jolly Bisharp, Jolly scarf Drill, and more. Oh, and those defenses don't let you switch in for shit, as pretty much any hit will knock you into range to be revenged by anything with a decently powered SE hit; and that's also assuming you already had time to Mevo earlier in the match in the first place. Hell, you can't even switch in to a MDiancie's Moon Blast without risking a speed tie and dying to an Earth Power the following turn (again, assuming you are Mevo'd already to speed tie in the first place). MGross is very bulky, but come on people, let's not exaggerate.

I feel like discussion at this point really needs to address MGross's impact on the metagame, as well as the impact of its absence on the suspect ladder. That is the most important part of this suspect process and the most likely topic that will bring new points to talk about. I don't think there are any more relevant calcs to bring to the table that haven't already been discussed in the previous 24 pages.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
In all honesty I think this thread was over the second McM posted his thoughts.

I'm pretty much always pro-ban in these discussions, because I've always been a firm believer that the metagame can be "fixed" by banning Pokemon until the so-called next best thing isn't significan't better than the rest of OU. McM basically explained this line of thinking in his post. The meta itself is broken due to the number of threats that exist, with Mega Metagross being one of the more restrictive factors. The way things work now, there will not only always be something your team is weak to (that's not a huge deal since that is true of every meta), but a prominent threat your team will be weak to. There are simply too many threats to prepare for to reasonably build successful teams. So ban Mega Metagross (and presumably others) in order to reduce the number of threats and thus fixed what is broken about the meta. That's the plan.

Unfortunately I don't think that's the best course of action anymore. Metagross is simply not broken. Offensive and defensive teams alike have a plethora of checks and counters to choose from that both fit easily onto normal teams, and are not what I would consider "niche" options. It relies on low base power moves (yes this is important, the other Tough Claws Mega has Dragon Dance and access to 120 BP moves but no one complains about him), has no form of recovery, and switches out often due to its power being only enough to 2HKO most things, meaning it isn't sweeping teams until very late-game, at which point it will most likely be weakened itself. It's good, no doubt. Probably one of the best Pokemon in the tier. But it really isn't broken. It isn't as hard to switch into as Greninja, it isn't capable of sweeping like Mega Mawile, it isn't on every team like Genesect, it doesn't support its team like Deoxys. It's just a really decent Pokemon, sort of like Keldeo in Gen V.

So the only argument that can be (and has been) reasonably made for its ban is that we want to reduce the number of threats in OU in the hope that, as McM says, it will "fix" the meta. Fewer threats will make team building less chaotic and stabilize the tier. But is that really a good precedent to set for ourselves? Do we really want to ban Metagross simply because it will make things easier? That really is the question at hand. Personally, something just doesn't sit right with me when I think about banning a Pokemon that we all know isn't really broken just in an attempt to fix the tier. And even if we do ban it, move on to Diancie or Sableye or Lopunny, and then continue the process until we have the desired metagame, wouldn't it be easier to try unbanning stuff? I honestly believe banning Aegislash was a big mistake and that it should be retested. There goes any problem we had with Metagross. Not to mention all the metagame trends that would keep Aegi in check naturally (rise in sand offense, hippo in general, volcarona/zard y, Chesnaught, etc.). Obviously this is about Mega Metagross, so discussing Aegi is not the point of the thread, but the main thing to take away from what I'm saying is that there are other options we should consider, in my opinion, before unnecessarily banning a Pokemon that doesn't meet the characteristics of "broken." Ultimately, this decision is up to those who vote, so this thread and what is said in it don't matter, but I hope those of you planning on voting to ban Metagrossite will seriously consider what I've said and think about what direction you want tiering policy to go on this site.

EDIT: because I know someone will quote this and say that there are no real counters to Mega Metagross, here is a list of some of the Pokemon you can use to check and/or counter it on any style of team: Counter Skarm, Mega Manectric, Mega Scizor, Rotom-W, regular scizor, Hippowdon, SDef Slowbro, Suicune, Volcarona, Bronzong, Scraf Garchomp, Sash Mamoswine, Bisharp, Klefki, Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Heatran, Charizard X, Specs Raikou, Gyarados, SR or Scarf Excadrill, Thundurus, Mega Alakazam, Starmie, Ferrothorn, Cresselia, Gourgeist XL, Yache Garchomp, Mega Charizard Y. All of these Pokemon can either take one hit from Mega Metagross and KO back, can come in on a revenge kill (for offense) and KO with or without some prior damage, can switch in on any move and force it out, or can switch in on certain moves and force it out.
 
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Quality reasoning and sound logic

On a side note, I second the notion for having a more flexible strategy to balancing the metagame; it is much harder to simply ban enough mons to stabilize the meta when there are massive mid-gen updates that throw dozens of new threats into the tier. 6th gen is kind of setting a precedent with that. But that's a discussion for another time.
 
While i agree that mega metagross is a very powerful pokemon, i do not believe that it is necessary to ban it to ubers. Many of you point out that there are very few offensive checks to meta, which is true, but its main offensive checks are already fairly common offensive pokemon. For example, both mega charizards, focus sash gengar, volcarona, chandelure, diggersby (with a scarf), garchomp, and mega sharpedo can all safely 1 or 2 hit KO most mega metagross sets. Of course there are more, but I just included some of the more common ones. Also there are plenty of defensive checks (counter skarmory, mega slowbro, almost anything with will-o-wisp that can live at least one hit, etc.), but these have been mentioned by other people multiple times.

If you aren't convinced, here are a few calcs:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 60 HP / 196 Def Mega Metagross: 354-416 (112 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Metagross in Sun: 426-504 (117 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 266-314 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 320-378 (101.2 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Of course, I'm not saying that mega metagross isn't much of a threat. It is. Mega metagross is a very big threat in OU. All I'm saying is that many of you are exaggerating how much of a threat it really is. I do think that this suspect test is 100% necessary, but I think that this pokemon should not be banned.
 
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The only question this suspect test has prepared me to answer is "Is the suspect meta fun?" My answer: not really. Every other battle is Magnezone + Diancie and all the teams are relatively similar. I wish I could contribute more to the thread, but anything I say about Mega Meta would be theorymon...
Just to be fair, from my experience on the last suspect ladder, everyone was using Mega Metagross + Keldeo (or Manaphy) and all the teams were relatively similar too.

I don't know how the meta developed after the last suspect, but if you don't like the suspect meta without Mega Metagross, you probably wouldn't like the suspect meta with Mega Metagross either. (It kinda sounds for me like, broken mon keeping broken mons in check, but I won't argue about Mega Metagross being broken or not since I won't participate in this suspect test).
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Yeah guys, it seems some of you are making use of the wrong methodological approach. Not banning Metagross on the premise of "broken Pokémon checking broken Pokémon" is wrong and misleading. If Mega-Metagross is overpowered in the current metagame, we're supposed to ban it. If other Pokémon, that are currently checked by M-Metagross, become broken in a Mega Metagross-less metagame, we'll suspect test and eventually ban them as well. The process is going to continue until we achieve a balanced metagame with no "broken" Pokémon into it.

And, before someone says that this is Smogon's typical ban-happy mentality, keep in mind that we only want to make the metagame the most balanced and enjoyable for everyone and that, anyway, it's gonna be the playerbase to decide what is getting banned and what isn't.
 
By your logic of having a coverage move for everything, then a lot of pokemon are uncounterable.
well, no actually because my argument is not that megagross is uncounterable, it's that he has 0 truly reliable switch-ins unlike every other offensive mon i can think of. i only raise this point to highlight how much more of a strain megagross is on teambuilding because in order to feel safe you must utilize a defensive core. offense doesn't even have this luxury so they just have to hope he stays in on their revenge-killer or pull some doubles in order to maintain momentum. now assuming i'm right and he is a major strain on teambuilding, and he's the premier offensive threat and easily one of the most used megas, this inherently means that teambuilding is currently centralized around an offensive threat that requires multiple mons to cover safely. this is why i think the meta is stale, it's full of common cores in order to not get rekt by megagross.

  • Charizard is definitely uncounterable. Not even Mega Altaria can counter ALL charizard...Tough claws Iron Tail is a 2HKO. Yep, I can bring that up if you're gonna use HP Fire or Thunder Punch Metagross.
    [*]Gengar is uncounterable, between its LO sets with all of the possible 4th move coverage, and its stall breaker sets
    [*]Thundurus has no counters if you really want to get picky and go through all of its possible coverage moves and physical sets
    [*]Mega Heracross has no hard counters and its SD + stabs + rock blast set alone has like 2 counters
    [*]Mega Gardevoir has no counters, most of its conventional counters get beat by Calm Mind, Taunt, Shadow Ball, or Wisp
    [*]Diggersby now has no counters since it got access to the elemental punches and knock off. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 309-367 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
    [*]Kyurem-B still has no counters, since its LO set can theoretically run Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Iron Head, or HP Fire with max Atk, SpA, or Speed
    [*]Let's not forget Mew is uncounterable, for reasons that should be obvious.

Charizard has Hippo
Gengar is the closest to true but still has Chansey (can get taunted) and most SpDef invested mons that take its hits neutrally like Mandibuzz can take it on
Thundurus has Mega-Pert (unless you're suggesting HP grass?) and SpDef Celebi
Mega Heracross has Clefable as well as Def Lando-T
Gard has Bulky Mega Scizor as well as SpDef invested Jirachi (burn doesn't prevent these mons from beating it one-on-one)
Diggersby has Mega Sableye and Hippo
I would really rather not calc Kyu-B for all of the special moves max and all of the physical moves max so due to laziness I'll throw ya Kyurem
Mew is uncounterable? wat? Assuming someone was running an offensive mew I'm sure its lackluster 100 offensive stats would show their true colors and mons like Hippo would be able to eat up its hits regardless of coverage


Even pokemon that have hard counters usually have so few that it's impossible to make a team that comes anywhere close to hard countering the meta. You'll need a Mega Venusaur to counter Mega Altaria, and a Clefable to counter mega Gallade, and a Cresselia to counter Landorus-I, and a Kyurem-B to counter Manaphy, keep going and you'll soon realize you're out of team spots way before you've countered every pokemon. (Also, it would be impossible to beat a team that hard counters all 6 of your pokemon and has recovery, because there is literally no way for you to do more damage than they can heal if they keep switching to the hard counter of whatever pokemon you have out.)

It's not even like each individual Metagross set is broken, since like 15 OU pokemon and a bunch more lower tier pokemon can switch into a set that lacks one or two of Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, HP Fire, or Thunder Punch. If you want to beat Metagross with a pair of pokemon, you have to make an entire third of your team from...

...oh, about a third of the metagame.
yes but that isn't my point, man. i'm saying he places a larger strain on teambuilding than other mons. one might be able to argue that this is bad teambuilding but if you build a team and fail to consider keldeo, you could, theoretically add one pokemon and patch up that weakness relatively well. 5 pokemon in and your team is weak to heracross? clef might do. 5 mons in and you have nothing for zard-y? leggo lati. etc. build a team and it turns out you're weak to megagross? start over, or delete over half of what you've just done. i'm not suggesting you build a team of 6 mons that individually handle everything, give me some credit. i'm just saying that he's overcentralizing and places a strain on teambuilding. also a third of the metagame? lol okay.
 
well, no actually because my argument is not that megagross is uncounterable, it's that he has 0 truly reliable switch-ins unlike every other offensive mon i can think of. i only raise this point to highlight how much more of a strain megagross is on teambuilding because in order to feel safe you must utilize a defensive core. offense doesn't even have this luxury so they just have to hope he stays in on their revenge-killer or pull some doubles in order to maintain momentum. now assuming i'm right and he is a major strain on teambuilding, and he's the premier offensive threat and easily one of the most used megas, this inherently means that teambuilding is currently centralized around an offensive threat that requires multiple mons to cover safely. this is why i think the meta is stale, it's full of common cores in order to not get rekt by megagross.
Do you know the amount of time poeple are saying "Lack of checks/counters doesnt make a Pokémon broken"??

Do you get what is a top tier threat? It's something you have to consider when teambuilding.

Did you played BW? Because you run more than 1 Keldeo check, you run more than 1 Garchomp check. And iirc, it's still true in ORAS, right?

Charizard has Hippo
Gengar is the closest to true but still has Chansey (can get taunted) and most SpDef invested mons that take its hits neutrally like Mandibuzz can take it on
Thundurus has Mega-Pert (unless you're suggesting HP grass?) and SpDef Celebi
Mega Heracross has Clefable as well as Def Lando-T
Gard has Bulky Mega Scizor as well as SpDef invested Jirachi (burn doesn't prevent these mons from beating it one-on-one)
Diggersby has Mega Sableye and Hippo
I would really rather not calc Kyu-B for all of the special moves max and all of the physical moves max so due to laziness I'll throw ya Kyurem
Mew is uncounterable? wat? Assuming someone was running an offensive mew I'm sure its lackluster 100 offensive stats would show their true colors and mons like Hippo would be able to eat up its hits regardless of coverage
Charizard-Y destroys Hippo.
Chansey doesnt counter Gengar at all.
Thundurus could run Grass Knot in order to hit Hippow (and then Mega Swampert) harder.
Clefable is 2hko'd by Heracross, Landorus-T is easily overloaded.

The other mon that guy gave you are bad example, especially Mew.
 
Do you know the amount of time poeple are saying "Lack of checks/counters doesnt make a Pokémon broken"??

Do you get what is a top tier threat? It's something you have to consider when teambuilding.

Did you played BW? Because you run more than 1 Keldeo check, you run more than 1 Garchomp check. And iirc, it's still true in ORAS, right?
just like how the opposite is true, if you want my honest opinion on what makes megagross broken, look at post #519. again my argument is not that he lacks checks/counters therefore broken. it is one of many qualities that megagross has that makes him, as an overall package, too much.

yes i get what a top tier threat is, and yes packing more than 1 keldeo check is probably a good idea. my point though is that it isn't entirely necessary. megagross is about the only one that it seems necessary for and then compare him to comparable mons like, say, Gengar, who requires a Life Orb to hit about as hard, which puts him on a timer, and his bulk is terrible, and his defensive typing isn't as good.

Charizard-Y destroys Hippo.
Chansey doesnt counter Gengar at all.
Thundurus could run Grass Knot in order to hit Hippow (and then Mega Swampert) harder.
Clefable is 2hko'd by Heracross, Landorus-T is easily overloaded.

The other mon that guy gave you are bad example, especially Mew.
well, yeah but to be fair, i consider zard-y and zard-x different mons. sure prior to mega-evo all you have is team composition to go off of but most competent players can distinguish them relatively well. on top of that, generally the worst-case is that you end up sacking something by guessing wrong but that's a unique circumstance to zard so i'd rather not get into that. zard-y and zard-x have different checks/counters. i presumed he was talking about x. if we're using zard as a whole, i don't think that's fair, because it's pretty much 2 entirely separate mons.

no Chansey doesn't counter Gengar but again, I wasn't looking for counters. I was just looking for switch-ins..which is the same thing I was doing for Megagross. what counters megagross? even Slowbro can pretty much just go for t-wave, hope for a scald burn, or pack fire blast which probably does jackshit. skarm needs counter, etc. but they're consistently listed as switch-ins, so why can't i list Chansey? it loses to taunt, sure, but it switches in just fine. plus, like i said, SpDef mons that take its hits neutrally can generall come in nicely.

thundurus can run grass knot but it's probably his least used coverage move after HP ice (and the rare flying i think), Knock off, superpower, focus blast, and even then, SpDef celebi remains true.

160 calm clef has a 60% chance to get 2hko'd by jolly hera rockblast. Def clefable doesn't get 2hko'd, and i'm not sure what you mean by easily overloaded? care to expand on that just a little? physically defensive lando eats his moves up for breakfast.
 
well, yeah but to be fair, i consider zard-y and zard-x different mons. sure prior to mega-evo all you have is team composition to go off of but most competent players can distinguish them relatively well. on top of that, generally the worst-case is that you end up sacking something by guessing wrong but that's a unique circumstance to zard so i'd rather not get into that. zard-y and zard-x have different checks/counters. i presumed he was talking about x. if we're using zard as a whole, i don't think that's fair, because it's pretty much 2 entirely separate mons.
Standard sand offense can run both Zard-Y and X. Not always as easy as you may think.

thundurus can run grass knot but it's probably his least used coverage move after HP ice (and the rare flying i think), Knock off, superpower, focus blast, and even then, SpDef celebi remains true.
That's exactly why Grass Knot Thundurus works well. And sorry I didn't see the Celebi first time, but you are stil able to run U-Turn on Thundurus, might works.

160 calm clef has a 60% chance to get 2hko'd by jolly hera rockblast. Def clefable doesn't get 2hko'd, and i'm not sure what you mean by easily overloaded? care to expand on that just a little? physically defensive lando eats his moves up for breakfast.
overload = Lando-T can't switch into Hera more than 1 time (assuming rocks are up), and anyway it's note like defensive lando-t could threaten heraccross.

You switch in and what? You allow him to SD on your face and destroy you?
 
well, no actually because my argument is not that megagross is uncounterable, it's that he has 0 truly reliable switch-ins unlike every other offensive mon i can think of.
I don't get it, what is a "truly reliable switch-in" that's also not a counter?

Charizard has Hippo
Gengar is the closest to true but still has Chansey (can get taunted) and most SpDef invested mons that take its hits neutrally like Mandibuzz can take it on
Thundurus has Mega-Pert (unless you're suggesting HP grass?) and SpDef Celebi
Mega Heracross has Clefable as well as Def Lando-T
Gard has Bulky Mega Scizor as well as SpDef invested Jirachi (burn doesn't prevent these mons from beating it one-on-one)
Diggersby has Mega Sableye and Hippo
I would really rather not calc Kyu-B for all of the special moves max and all of the physical moves max so due to laziness I'll throw ya Kyurem
Mew is uncounterable? wat? Assuming someone was running an offensive mew I'm sure its lackluster 100 offensive stats would show their true colors and mons like Hippo would be able to eat up its hits regardless of coverage
Hippo needs max defense to take on Charizard X's Flare Blitz and max special defense to take on Charizard Y's Fire Blast, obviously it can't have both. Also, it's screwed if Charizard Y switches in on Hippo (so it's sun), and burnt Hippo gets stalled out by Charizard X.

Gengar's most common 4th move on its LO+3 attacks set is Taunt. Specifically for Chansey (and Mega Venu). And even the most specially defensive Mandibuzz gets 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt after a little damage (rocks), or Sludge Wave + Wisp, or if I really wanted to be cheesy, Hypnosis.

Thundurus used to use Grass Knot when Hippo was more common (when it was used as Aegislash check), the only reason it doesn't use Grass Knot now is because Hippo and Quagsire and etc are a lot less common. Also Celebi doesn't do a lot of damage back (Psychic is a 3HKO) so Thundurus can set up Nasty Plot and 2HKO.

Mega Heracross gets past Clefable with +2 Rock Blast if it's Magic Guard (keep in mind Moonblast only does ~70% back), or just 2HKO'ing with Rock Blast + Stealth Rocks if its Unaware. I'll give you Lando-T, although it needs HP Flying or Power Herb Fly to prevent Heracross from just Swords Dancing on it.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 339-399 (111.5 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Hippo doesn't KO back if it survives.

When I say Mew is uncounterable, I don't just mean offensive Mew, I mean ALL Mew. Stall breaker Mew (which is what beats pokemon like Hippowdon and pretty much anything else tanky enough to take any super effective attack from Mew), also support Mew, SD/NP Mew, all of them.


yes but that isn't my point, man. i'm saying he places a larger strain on teambuilding than other mons. one might be able to argue that this is bad teambuilding but if you build a team and fail to consider keldeo, you could, theoretically add one pokemon and patch up that weakness relatively well. 5 pokemon in and your team is weak to heracross? clef might do. 5 mons in and you have nothing for zard-y? leggo lati. etc. build a team and it turns out you're weak to megagross? start over, or delete over half of what you've just done. i'm not suggesting you build a team of 6 mons that individually handle everything, give me some credit. i'm just saying that he's overcentralizing and places a strain on teambuilding. also a third of the metagame? lol okay.
Well if you really wanted, you could try Shadow Ball Cresselia...If you're scared of a Meteor Mash attack boost throw on Thunder Wave or Reflect too. Also I don't see you having to totally start over if you're 5 pokemon are weak to Mega Metagross, because so many cores include common OU pokemon. It's not really a big deal to, for example, replace your Amoonguss with a Ferrothorn in order to check Metagross better, then put Victini in your 6th spot because, realistically, no Metagross runs both Hammer Arm and Earthquake, as well as its stabs.

As for "a third of the metagame", I'll just copy Halcyon's list, it's pretty good.
EDIT: because I know someone will quote this and say that there are no real counters to Mega Metagross, here is a list of some of the Pokemon you can use to check and/or counter it on any style of team: Counter Skarm, Mega Manectric, Mega Scizor, Rotom-W, regular scizor, Hippowdon, SDef Slowbro, Suicune, Volcarona, Bronzong, Scraf Garchomp, Sash Mamoswine, Bisharp, Klefki, Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Heatran, Charizard X, Specs Raikou, Gyarados, SR or Scarf Excadrill, Thundurus, Mega Alakazam, Starmie, Ferrothorn, Cresselia, Gourgeist XL, Yache Garchomp, Mega Charizard Y. All of these Pokemon can either take one hit from Mega Metagross and KO back, can come in on a revenge kill (for offense) and KO with or without some prior damage, can switch in on any move and force it out, or can switch in on certain moves and force it out.
Also a couple of OU pokemon I might add on: Physically defensive Mandibuzz, phys def Zapdos, your own Metagross with Earthquake (lol), and Sableye (Mega has a chance to get 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash, but if it switches in on any other move, or in base form, it threatens with Wisp first)


edit:
no Chansey doesn't counter Gengar but again, I wasn't looking for counters. I was just looking for switch-ins..which is the same thing I was doing for Megagross. what counters megagross? even Slowbro can pretty much just go for t-wave, hope for a scald burn, or pack fire blast which probably does jackshit. skarm needs counter, etc. but they're consistently listed as switch-ins, so why can't i list Chansey? it loses to taunt, sure, but it switches in just fine. plus, like i said, SpDef mons that take its hits neutrally can generall come in nicely.
There is one distinction between listing Chansey as Gengar switchin and listing Slowbro as a Metagross switchin. If Gengar runs Taunt, Chansey loses no matter what it switches into, while if Metagross runs Grass Knot, it has to hit Slowbro on the switch and then hit it a second time if it wants to avoid a Thunder Wave or Fire Blast. If Chansey only had to avoid switching in on Taunt, I would have no problem labeling them both as checks (or switchins or whatever).
 
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blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
So after getting reqs and stuff IMO Megagross is not as broken as Smog Frog. Ninja could get past everything such as Chansey that used to be able to wall it, and had basically no hard counters. Megagross is much easier to revenge and also takes up a Mega slot. It hits harder but doesn't have the coverage it wants, and runs into severe 4MSS. Although Megagross is bulkier, it is also not too hard to wear down and play around with prediction.
On suspect ladder I saw a ton of Mega Diancie and as a result Mega Scizor, and with fairyspam Stall will probably once again become unviable like when the 3 wallbreaker Megas were running around late XY. Having 90% accuracy on Hammer Arm, Meteor Mash, and Zen Headbutt still doesn't help...
Although it has a lot of bulk, comparable to Skarmory, it never actually can afford to invest in it, and has no recovery. If it chooses to run Rock Polish, then it will be walled even more easily, while without it it is easily revenged after a bit of prior damage by most Scarfers. Without any boosting moves(Hone claws lol) it also cannot break past some stuff, and Hammer Arm leaves it even more prone to being revenged.

tldr; don't ban megagross
 
I don't get it, what is a "truly reliable switch-in" that's also not a counter?
rotom-w is a reliable switch-in to mega-zard x but it's pretty much just set-up fodder and loses to it so i think there is a distinction between a switch-in and a counter. i think a counter can reliably switch-in and beat it one-on-one every time. it's like a complete hard-stop, whereas a switch-in might have trouble with a mon or just barely be able to win against it or even lose.

Hippo needs max defense to take on Charizard X's Flare Blitz and max special defense to take on Charizard Y's Fire Blast, obviously it can't have both. Also, it's screwed if Charizard Y switches in on Hippo (so it's sun), and burnt Hippo gets stalled out by Charizard X.

Gengar's most common 4th move on its LO+3 attacks set is Taunt. Specifically for Chansey (and Mega Venu). And even the most specially defensive Mandibuzz gets 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt after a little damage (rocks), or Sludge Wave + Wisp, or if I really wanted to be cheesy, Hypnosis.

Thundurus used to use Grass Knot when Hippo was more common (when it was used as Aegislash check), the only reason it doesn't use Grass Knot now is because Hippo and Quagsire and etc are a lot less common. Also Celebi doesn't do a lot of damage back (Psychic is a 3HKO) so Thundurus can set up Nasty Plot and 2HKO.

Mega Heracross gets past Clefable with +2 Rock Blast if it's Magic Guard (keep in mind Moonblast only does ~70% back), or just 2HKO'ing with Rock Blast + Stealth Rocks if its Unaware. I'll give you Lando-T, although it needs HP Flying or Power Herb Fly to prevent Heracross from just Swords Dancing on it.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 339-399 (111.5 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Hippo doesn't KO back if it survives.

When I say Mew is uncounterable, I don't just mean offensive Mew, I mean ALL Mew. Stall breaker Mew (which is what beats pokemon like Hippowdon and pretty much anything else tanky enough to take any super effective attack from Mew), also support Mew, SD/NP Mew, all of them.

seriously don't think putting zard-y and zard-x in the same slot is fair haha, like i get it because you don't know prior to mega evo but, they're practically independent mons with different stats/abilities/sets/checks/counters. it's a unique circumstance. and i'll grant you that zard-x with will-o can stall out hippo but toxic? roar?

honestly i'm not going to continue arguing gengar, i've spent enough time scouring the list of switch-ins before while realizing my team is gengar weak, he pretty much has none tbh. but now let's look at him compared to megagross, both are similar in their offensive output, but one is on a timer and has extremely minor bulk.

celebi can NP too :3
+2 4 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
possible ohko after rocks

i thought physdef clef was usually unaware? either way unaware physdef wins i believe. and you're right, lando is pretty much just there as a defensive pivot, but he switches in easily, prevents a sack, gets outsped allowing a slow pivot, and if he SDs he only ends up at +1 due to intimidate.

yeah diggersby is a bigger threat these days, still if i were to concede diggersby we can take a closer look at him and see that the overall package is severely underwhelming compared to megagross. his speed tier is laughable and his bulk is mediocre at best.

and yeah mew's movepool is pretty much unstoppable. if there's a set mew can run it pretty much so i guess you got me on mew.


There is one distinction between listing Chansey as Gengar switchin and listing Slowbro as a Metagross switchin. If Gengar runs Taunt, Chansey loses no matter what it switches into, while if Metagross runs Grass Knot, it has to hit Slowbro on the switch and then hit it a second time if it wants to avoid a Thunder Wave or Fire Blast. If Chansey only had to avoid switching in on Taunt, I would have no problem labeling them both as checks (or switchins or whatever).
true, i suppose they're not equivalents. i still think my point remains though because my argument is not that the lack of switch-ins/answers is what makes him broken, it's that combined with every other tool he gets. it's also considering he has considerably little, if any, weaknesses. he just gets slapped on a team, used effectively, and he's performs his role extremely well without any real effort whatsoever. when you compare him to the rest of the meta, to me, it's clear that he's a level beyond all the other top threats.
 

Reymedy

ne craint personne
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Alright, I didn't read the whole thing, but here the logic behind my future vote :

Statement

The metagame is overcrowded.
There are way too many threats to deal with. Let's just name a few that you (should) think about when you build :
"Landorus, can be CM, beware of Knock Off though, and scout if it's HP Ice, Focus Blast, or Psychic. Oh and, make sure you don't give him a free turn to set-up a substitute or a Rock Polish. Alright ? Good.
Now let's move on. Keldeo, if your team is too frail, make sure the Scarf doesn't sweep you, and don't let your bulky team be swept by the Sub/CM set, but you also have to be able to switch into the Specs if your team is slow (some run Ebelt, so beware). Got it ?
Talonflame, it's a pain for offense, resistances to its Stabs are so hard to fit in. So you're planning to wall it with a bulky pokémon ? Which one ? It must deal with the Stallbreaker set, and also the bulky SD. Last time I even got swept by one that lured my Rotom-W with Natural Gift. It was so funny !
We should probably take a Fairy that deals with SableyeM or else we're gonna be screwed. Make sure you can either break thought a +1 Sableye though, or boost alongside it. Some run Knock Off, so pain attention. Talking about items, we might need Shed Shell. Sigh, these Gothitelle, such a pain in the ass.
Oh and... what ? What do you say ? Your team is already built ? Dude, we're only at the start of the threatlist, come on. Welp, let's hope we don't face a pokémon we're weak to !"

And that's just a joke. But building in this tier is a really disturbing thing to do for someone like me who likes to have teams trying at least to deal with most of the threats. People saying they don't lose to matchup are full of shit. Go ahead and pastebin your team here, I will surely be able to name a bunch of things that you can't deal with. And I won't have to go deep inside the tier. Now we're talking about tournaments. Which means that people ARE going deep into the tier to build on specific sweepers and shit.

My opinion

Get some things outta here.


Which things

Metagross is the easiest target. Not only it's stupidly hard to "counter", but on top of that we're not talking about Kyurem-B, Hydreigon.. or whatever. We're talking about a Steel Pokémon, with a freaking bulk, a retarded raw power, and a speed of 110. It's the textbook example of a Pokémon with NO drawback during the teambuilding.
What am I talking about ? A drawback is like, when you build on ScizorM, from the get-go you have to deal with both Charizards for instance, because they come on your Scizor like there's no tommorow. That's why a lot of people don't play ScizorM that much, that's hella good, but you rarely want to give a free switch in to Charizards since it implies a team almost built around dealing with them.
Metagross, with its little list of "contingent counters", its speed (meaning the amount of things that can punish you before you punish them is very low, basically if it was 95 speed, then you could switch in, say, your Charizard and then play around the threat), and the gucci typing/bulk, is so easy to fit everywhere. That's clearly not fair.

Now we can find answers, but it's just another Pokémon that you have to find specific answer to. At least stuff like Talonflame are weak to rocks, there are drawbacks and you can cash on that. At least stuff like GalladeM can't really switch into anything and then set-up due to the wacky typing and the low speed, you can play around it. At least stuff like HeracrossM are slow, you don't really to be afraid of it, as long as your team is decently fast. Etc.
We need some kind of balance, and Metagross is unbalanced because it's too "free" to use.

That's my point of view, and no, I dont think that Fairies will become overpowered, that's bullshit (I mean, MetagrossM wasnt here in XY so what is this argument about already).
 
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That's my point of view, and no, I dont think that Fairies will become overpowered, that's bullshit (I mean, MetagrossM wasnt here in XY so what is this argument about already).
People are probably talking about the M-Diancie spike in usage that will inevitably come if M-Gross is banned, due to one of its biggest checks being removed.

As for fairy types, there are plenty of steel and poison types (Scizor, Ferro, Tentacruel) that can take on a wide variety of fairy type mons.
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
People are probably talking about the M-Diancie spike in usage that will inevitably come if M-Gross is banned, due to one of its biggest checks being removed.

As for fairy types, there are plenty of steel and poison types (Scizor, Ferro, Tentacruel) that can take on a wide variety of fairy type mons.
Mega Metagross is not even a good answer to Mega Diancie unless it runs Bullet Punch which limits its coverage, so I don't see how Mega Diancie gets that much better if Mega Metagross gets banned. And certainly not to the point of it becoming broken itself.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
The possible fairy domination is just a stupid argument. First of all, it is not relevant in a suspect test because if Mega Diancie / Altaria becomes broken (they don't) Smogon will just suspect them and Mega Metagross was not even the best switchin for Mega Diancie because it can't keep switching in because even resisted Moonblasts do 30% damage and Earth Power + Moonblast has a good chance to KO Metagross. With Mega Metagross gone there are still plenty of switchins to Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria such as Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Chansey and Scizor.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
The possible fairy domination is just a stupid argument. First of all, it is not relevant in a suspect test because if Mega Diancie / Altaria becomes broken (they don't) Smogon will just suspect them and Mega Metagross was not even the best switchin for Mega Diancie because it can't keep switching in because even resisted Moonblasts do 30% damage and Earth Power + Moonblast has a good chance to KO Metagross. With Mega Metagross gone there are still plenty of switchins to Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria such as Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Chansey and Scizor.
MMeta is more of a hard check. It is reliant on Speed Ties/Revenge kills to actually come in. It should never be stated that it counters it, as nearly nothing counters MDiancie.

The best replacement would be MScizor/Venu. Chansey is laughable and if MMeta goes Stall will be pretty shitty.

Also, with the argument Reymedy said about how fairies werent OP in XY OU, i think you missed the other half of the meta. Fairies were meh and more bulky and slow then they were viable. Clefable was much less viable then it was now, and the only good Fairy we had would be MGarde. Also notion that MPinsir, a god at the time, destroyed basically every fairy due to their shit defenses by simply revenge killing and sweeping.

Fairies were underwhelming in the XY Meta, but comparing ORAS to XY is like comparing wet bread to stale bread. Now, add 2 more megas with one being more bulky and has access to moves like DDance, and another with the unbeatable Fairy/Ground coverage (Ground destroys Fairy's weaknesses, explaining why its stupidly powerful) and a 3/4th slot. See the problem here?
 
The suspect ladder was a good place to really see how a metagame without metagross would be like, and after playing about 200+ games i can say that the overall removal of metagross is beneficial to every playstyle.
I'm not going to go on a rant telling you why metagross is good, because theres 25 pages of that, and we all have heard the arguments. However lets focus on what banning metagross accomplishes. For starters Metagross is the fairy slayer hands down, and with the removal of this centralizing mon has lead the meta to be clearly more fairy friendly. New mons such as altaria and diancie are able to flourish in many cases far less disturbed without its presence. Why am i ranting about fairies? With fairies becoming buffed in a sense, you are definitely going to see a less centralized sableye meta as well. This is a two birds one stone scenario when you break it down, diancie and altaria are way better on the suspect ladder, to the point where i can conclude sableye isn't even broken in this new meta. 3100 coil means jack shit but what it does is indicate i actually put time to really give a solid analysis on what this meta is.

I understand some of you like metagross and are biased, which i totally understand, it looks cool af, and who doesn't like boping clefable honestly. However despite even myself enjoying using metagross, its undeniable that the metagame is a hell of a lot more balanced to where its actually enjoyable, with flexibility within every playstyle. I think its time we add the second pseudo legendary to the land of banishment.
 
The suspect ladder was a good place to really see how a metagame without metagross would be like
No. Poeple doesn't have the time to adapt correctly their team. You don't see how the metagame will be without metagross, yu just see what becomes more viable because poeple abuse it to get reqs as soon as possible.

and after playing about 200+ games i can say that the overall removal of metagross is beneficial to every playstyle.
No. Or at least, HO teams don't benefit a lot from Metagross ban. If in one hand a huge threat is gone, in the other hand, they have lost a really solid check to Lopunny.

For starters Metagross is the fairy slayer hands down, and with the removal of this centralizing mon has lead the meta to be clearly more fairy friendly. New mons such as altaria and diancie are able to flourish in many cases far less disturbed without its presence.
I would not consider Ataria and Diancie as new pokemons in the meta. They are already played with Metagross allowed.

Why am i ranting about fairies? With fairies becoming buffed in a sense, you are definitely going to see a less centralized sableye meta as well. This is a two birds one stone scenario when you break it down, diancie and altaria are way better on the suspect ladder, to the point where i can conclude sableye isn't even broken in this new meta. 3100 coil means jack shit but what it does is indicate i actually put time to really give a solid analysis on what this meta is.
Sableye is played in stall, stalls dont have any problem to deal with Fairies like Altaria or Diancie. If you find the metagame too much Sableye-centralized, I don't think it will change something to ban Metagross.

I understand some of you like metagross and are biased, which i totally understand, it looks cool af, and who doesn't like boping clefable honestly. However despite even myself enjoying using metagross, its undeniable that the metagame is a hell of a lot more balanced to where its actually enjoyable, with flexibility within every playstyle. I think its time we add the second pseudo legendary to the land of banishment.
I don't understand why you are ignoring real anti-ban arguments by saying they are just "Metagross is my favorite mon, don't ban it". Can't you just take the real point brought by anti-ban side and destroy them one by one instead of saying that kind of bullshit?

Not the first time I see it in suspects threads, evenif it's different than the classic "poeple who are against the ban are like "LOL SMOGON SUCKS THEY JUST WANT TO BAN EVERYTHING EVERYTIME THEY HAVE TROUBLE TO DEAL WITH A THREAT OML THEY ARE SO NUB"", you can't discredit all the anti-ban side by quoting something saying by a huge minority of "player".

Edit : Not to mention that your post is saying :

Banning metagross is good, we get a less Sableye-centralized metagame, instead we get a Altaria/Diancie-centralized metagame (and by that way a Balanced-centralized metagame).

I don't see logic in your thought process.
 
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Halcyon , overall I thought you had a very solid post, but there were a couple of problems I had with it:
Metagross is simply not broken. Offensive and defensive teams alike have a plethora of checks and counters to choose from that both fit easily onto normal teams, and are not what I would consider "niche" options. It relies on low base power moves (yes this is important, the other Tough Claws Mega has Dragon Dance and access to 120 BP moves but no one complains about him), has no form of recovery, and switches out often due to its power being only enough to 2HKO most things, meaning it isn't sweeping teams until very late-game, at which point it will most likely be weakened itself. It's good, no doubt. Probably one of the best Pokemon in the tier. But it really isn't broken. It isn't as hard to switch into as Greninja, it isn't capable of sweeping like Mega Mawile, it isn't on every team like Genesect, it doesn't support its team like Deoxys. It's just a really decent Pokemon, sort of like Keldeo in Gen V.
You have ignored the one thing that is the tipping factor that potentially makes Mega Metagross broken: its BULK. No, Metagross is not the strongest offensive threat or the fastest, but holy CRAP is its bulk good for an offensive threat. This is what is potentially banworthy about it: 80/150/110 bulk with a steel/psychic typing on an offensive threat makes it ridiculously hard to reliably check, let alone counter, especially with its wide array of coverage.
 
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took my time to read almost everything, this ban is quite simple in my opinion, reasonable and statistically significant non biased arguments are already told, and there are some notable posts, specially reymedy's and mob barley's.

the truth is, 110 base speed on an insane bulk and insane atk, with a godlike ability and typing is just... insane.

i was going to vote no ban but the suspect test made me change my mind, so BAN.
 
Luckstard, instead of trying to break down my post in a negative tone, you should be taking in a lot of my points in as their accurate, rather then try to pick them apart in an unsuccessful manner

The metagame will not be "dominated" by fairy types, but they will have a bigger role in the meta undeniably. That doesn't mean Many things are now again more viable such as amoonguss and venusaur, and the new face of the steel megas has been left to scizor, also a mon that handles fairies considerably well. You obviously need the meta to develop but you can seen in plain sight whats become more viable
 
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