Serperior for Uber, you are saying that Serperior does not restrict teambuilding and yet a paragraph later you admit it encourages the use of shitmons like zebstrika. Doublade has a niche outside of CTeaming Terrakion. If Zebstrika and Boufallant have a niches outside of countering serp why are people consistently saying they are terrible??? Zebstrika is a physical attacking electic type ffs what viability could that possibly have in UU
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
- Status
This has to be the single most confusing post Ive ever seen....
I would ask for a bit more SDef before Speed tbh. Not being able to set up on Pidgeot is pitiful, and even uninvested STAB Scalds do a number to it, and a lot of resisted special hits just do too much..
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 150-177 (49 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 117-138 (38.2 - 45%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 75-89 (24.5 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
These calcs in particular are pretty embarrassing (don't even bring up Heliolisk, Grass Knot mauls Tyrantrum). So yeah gl making good use of that Electric resist ]:
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 138-163 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
some resistance that is. Z is bad but still jeez.
That being said Jolly Lum DD has its merits on the ladder, it really shines with Spikes support.
Problem with that is at that point there's not a whole lot of reason not to just use Salamence instead. So overall its usable but ultimately niche. Honestly, as much as I like set up Tyrantrum myself, for ladder play there's not a whole lot of reason to venture beyond Choice Band, it's by far the best set and makes the most of Tyrantrum's niche in UU over Salamence, spamming Head Meme.
Back on the topic of Serperior though,
Glare, Glare, if not for Serperior why use this over Hydreigon?, not as relevant as it used to be, Glare, Glare and a really meh option anyway, momentum sucker outside of stall, I'll give you this one, wait why am I not running specs?, Glare, and the rest is also Glare.
Disregarding glare when making this list is really convenient isnt it?
Turns out that's not really something you can do in practice.
And about Doublade....+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 225-265 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I won't even address Zebstrika, it's obviously going to be the next suspect.
Perhaps I was unclear, but what I said(or intended to say) was that Serperior does not restrict teambuilding but at the same time promotes innovation if one chooses to. Anyway, what dictates which pokemon are "shitmons" ? The fact that it's labeled PU? That was exactly my point. Maybe just maybe pokemon that we dismissed as "shitmons" may not actually be shitmons.Case in point: heliolisk, a "shitmon" was dismissed as horribad at the end of january signified by its drop from ru to nu. Yet this shit mon is now currently used in UU efficently. Naturally, things and ideas get overlooked and forgotten by something that is more flashier or catches the public's eye first. Maybe the advent of Serperior will promote the discovery and revival of a long forgotten/overlooked pokemon.Lapras said:
I disregarded glare as I thought the prediction would depend on the skill of the user. If I Include glare: rotom-heat, goodra for the special bulk I would think, Roserade, and AV dragalge hits hard enough I've found even without specs. And my point about anything bulky with AV that resists grass still stands.Darkerones said:
Last edited:
Heliolisk isn't comparable to Zebstrika.
Heliolisk already had a niche in UU since it's conception but it's just now rising because of Raikou leaving the tier, leaving it as the premiere offensive Electric type in UU.
Zebstrika has no niche in UU even with Serperior in the tier. It's viability in UU is about the same as Avalugg.
It looks good on paper but the combination of mediocre stats and there being better options available that do the job better and then some "dictate" that its bad
That's a horribly small pool to choose from still. AV isn't an item you can just slap onto anything, and if a Pokemon is using AV over a better item for it JUST for Serperior then that's a perfect example of centralization. You yourself provided a good example earlier, why in the world would I use AV Dragalge if Serperior wasn't in the tier? I either miss out on power or valuable support moves like TSpikes.
Last edited:
Hi I don't have a completely strong opinion on Serperior yet, though I am leaning towards ban. However, I wanted to pop in and say that a Pokemon's tiering placement is not always going to tell you whether it's garbage or not. Heliolisk dropping to NU wasn't signifying it as a garbage mon, just that its usage in RU got rather low, and that doesn't mean it was bad in RU, Heliolisk is and always has been a solid Pokemon in RU. Especially for RU, usage and tiering placement should not dictate whether it is a garbage mon. Heliolisk, along with Virizion, are both very good and viable in RU despite dropping to NU, their fall to NU only means that they simply weren't used enough, in other words, were not seen on average in 1 out of every 20 battles. RU has a very bad ladder and its tier list should not necessarily be used as an accurate representation of what is good in RU. The most notorious example of this is that Ambipom is currently receiving high usage in RU, yet it's complete garbage. Furthermore, in RU, there are plenty of NU mons that are very good, such as Mesprit and Feraligatr who would probably be RU anyways if the tier list was a truly accurate list of what is good in RU.
Furthermore, Heliolisk has always been a very decent Pokemon in UU and was never truly a bad Pokemon, its problem was moreso that Raikou existed, so Heliolisk had very stiff competition from Raikou as an Electric-type, but since Raikou left the tier, Heliolisk now has no competition as a fast Electric-type. It has always been an excellent lower tier Pokemon with its great coverage, Volt Switch, and Dry Skin being excellent qualities for it to be a good attacker and pivot in one.
This isn't relevant to the suspect discussion, just wanted to say that a Pokemon being NU does not dictate it as a "shitmon". A Pokemon being NU simply means that it is not seen enough in any of the higher tier ladders to be placed in such tiers.
Furthermore, Heliolisk has always been a very decent Pokemon in UU and was never truly a bad Pokemon, its problem was moreso that Raikou existed, so Heliolisk had very stiff competition from Raikou as an Electric-type, but since Raikou left the tier, Heliolisk now has no competition as a fast Electric-type. It has always been an excellent lower tier Pokemon with its great coverage, Volt Switch, and Dry Skin being excellent qualities for it to be a good attacker and pivot in one.
This isn't relevant to the suspect discussion, just wanted to say that a Pokemon being NU does not dictate it as a "shitmon". A Pokemon being NU simply means that it is not seen enough in any of the higher tier ladders to be placed in such tiers.
In hindsight Zebstrika was probably the worst example of potential innovation possible... lol
Hariyana Grande [old]
Banned deucer.
This has been said so much... But I guess I'll say it again for you.
See the majority of these "checks" that you listed for serp can take a leaf storm, yeah, but then you take into account that literally every serp ~~should~~ run glare. Switching into a crowbar expecting a leaf storm from a serp will just leave you with a crippled bat if you're opponent is even a bit competent. You just lost your "check" if you don't have a cleric right there, leaving the other members of the opponents team to easily ko that crobat. This is the same case with all the other birds bar Linda that you list as a "check".
As for the dragons that you listed as "check", do you not know that serp gets dragon pulse lol.. It easily kills all of what you listed with a dragon pulse after switching into a leaf storm, and unless it's scarfed, that dragon is dead.
Edit: fixed a few typos
Last edited:
Dredging up otherwise useless shitmons(and I do mean useless, no experienced player would EVER use Zebstrika in UU, it's not even research week levels of usable) has never been a good argument. It's the "Arcanine and Weezing exist, therefore Mega Mawile shouldn't be banned" argument. I'm not saying Zebstrika is the crux of your argument but omitting Glare, Dragon Pulse, and Hidden Power from the equation makes your central point pretty threadbare already.
Also, Heliolisk was always pretty viable in the same way that something like Toxicroak is viable. It combats the numerous bulky waters in the tier while also having its own offensive presence and niches. In the case of Toxicroak that niche is priority, and Heliolisk has volt switch, a nice speed tier, and coverage other electrics in the tier only dream of. Zebstrika has nothing that sets it apart either offensively or defensively other than its ability to switch into grass.
At first I thought this thing wasn't anywhere near ban-worthy, since my Hydreigon, Florges, Mega Aggron core had been putting in much more work than it.
But now I've realized how few things can actually switch in on it. You pretty much have to either be faster than it and resist Leaf Storm (at which point Glare cripples you) or have a dual resistance or immunity Leaf Storm. For example, the Assault Vest Entei set will lose half its health from 2 Leaf Storms and offensive ones will almost certainly be KO'd.
But now I've realized how few things can actually switch in on it. You pretty much have to either be faster than it and resist Leaf Storm (at which point Glare cripples you) or have a dual resistance or immunity Leaf Storm. For example, the Assault Vest Entei set will lose half its health from 2 Leaf Storms and offensive ones will almost certainly be KO'd.
Yes i realize that, but ignoring bouff serp still has enough answers that my experience using it leads me to feel its not broken.
My bad, I thought crabhammer was boosted by Sheer Force, but Kingler does get Superpower, SD and Agility as well, along with random coverages like Knock Off and Rock Slide.
Regardless, I still think gatr will be rather weak in the current meta, at +1, LO Crunch is a 4HKO on suicune, which is probably the one of the most common bulky waters in the tier, at +2, it's a 3HKO still. It also sits at a pretty subpar speed tier, at +1 speed it doesn't outspeed a whole lot, hitting a mediocre 420(lol) speed.
inb4bobgetssweptbygatr
With regards to Feraligatr, I honestly don't think Dragon Dance will be as good as Swords Dance. Waterfall, Crunch, and Aqua Jet for the most part should be sufficient enough to hit through much of this meta. I definitely think base 78 speed is a reason to justify SD as a superior set up method, since at +1 it still fails to outspeed threats like Mega Beedrill, Mega Aero, and Mega Sceptile, and Aqua Jet, +2 or nor, will severely dent the former two.
I also think the kingler comparison is a bit off, especially if you look at the base speed difference between the two, priority on Gatr's behalf, and the glaring disparity between its bulk and Gatr's. However, what I do agree with is that their coverage is actually kind of comparable though, as Gatr's isn't that much better here.
Not being able to outspeed shit like Roserade, luke, and Shaymin at +1 sucks a ton, but I feel like being able to break through bulky water types and certain other defensive 'mons is a bit more important than outspeeding a select list of threats.
I also think the kingler comparison is a bit off, especially if you look at the base speed difference between the two, priority on Gatr's behalf, and the glaring disparity between its bulk and Gatr's. However, what I do agree with is that their coverage is actually kind of comparable though, as Gatr's isn't that much better here.
Not being able to outspeed shit like Roserade, luke, and Shaymin at +1 sucks a ton, but I feel like being able to break through bulky water types and certain other defensive 'mons is a bit more important than outspeeding a select list of threats.
Last edited:
I understand that serperior has a good amount of switchins. however every single mon tht you listed as a check up there except for the dragons is weak to rocks and there are 3 mons tht are quad weak to rocks. And moonga and roserade are soft checks if anything because you never know when serp is gunna pop you with an hp fire. Every single time ive seen serp on this ladder it's followed by rocks support, it applies so much pressure on all of those checks its not even funny. A mon like crobat for example, yes it switches into serp easily (who knows you might get popped by glare), but it is so pressured to defog, which defog loses any and all momentum and ur opponent can simply just go into a common mon like aero that destroys crobat or any other steel or resist. And if you u turn you will come back in and take more and more rocks damage thus really starting to pressure ur resist. this can really take a toll on ur switchin to serp and other mons like rotom and pidegot do not like the storm plus rocks damage as it really stacks up on them. All except 2 of you listed checks up are very soft and can still be dealt with if serp is paired with the right mons. And once they are dealt with there is literally nothing you can do to stop it if it gets a boost
Last edited:
As you can see with the checks you listed, almost none of the checks take a glare and still check serp after the next switch in. No one wants to run a Bouffalant or goodra because they are not viable. The only viable check is Sdef Rotom-H and maybe ammongus(Which is not that great either). Literally every viable check gets instantly crippled with glare rendering it useless for the rest of the game. With this fact, teambuilding will be limited inevitably over-centralizing the meta game.
Can we stop talking about bad Pokemon like Zebstrika?
Talking about it doesn't help any side of the argument. Zebstrika isn't by any means viable in the UU tier, and even mentioning it as a potential check is a waste of time, because no serious team is ever going to use. And there are far more viable checks and counters, so the argument "People have to run Pokemon like Zebstrika to beat Serperior" is terrible and simply not true.
Another thing is that people need to stop assuming that Serperior only deals with ideal scenarios that always go in its favor. Let's clarify some things
- Serperior is affected by all hazards, has no immunities, and it isn't particularly bulky without investment, this means it has problems switching directly into most of the metagame (Hippowdown does 40~% with EQ + SR + Sand, for example), and that wearing it down isn't difficult.
- Serperior is extremely weak without Life Orb, which makes it significantly easier to wear down, and even with that item its initial power is underwhelming. Many Pokemon can simply not switch out, because +0 Serperior is only really a threat to Pokemon weak to Grass-type moves. A
- Serperior's teammate can help it deal with its counters, but do you think the opponent's team only consist of one Serperior counter? If I'm running Crobat, I'll have something to deal with Pokemon that give Crobat troubles, this is basic teambuilding.
- Serperior can cripple some of its checks and counters with Glare, but it needs excellent prediction for that and loses an important moveslot. The fact it lacks immediate power doesn't help it here at all, because miss predicting means Serperior taking damage while getting no boost. If using status moves with sweepers was half as good as some people here claim it is, WoW Mega Absol and Thunder Wave Porygon-Z would be everywhere.
Last thing, can someone tell me how are Roserade and Amoonguss not good counters / checks?
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 32-39 (9.8 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 166-198 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 93% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 39-47 (9 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 101-120 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%)
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%)
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%)
SR + x2 LO = 32% damage to Serperior. Roserade easily kills, and Amoonguss needs minimal prior damage to guarantee the KO, or it can just run Clear Smog and survive Leaf Storm + boosted HP Ice + non-boosted HP Ice.
Talking about it doesn't help any side of the argument. Zebstrika isn't by any means viable in the UU tier, and even mentioning it as a potential check is a waste of time, because no serious team is ever going to use. And there are far more viable checks and counters, so the argument "People have to run Pokemon like Zebstrika to beat Serperior" is terrible and simply not true.
Another thing is that people need to stop assuming that Serperior only deals with ideal scenarios that always go in its favor. Let's clarify some things
- Serperior is affected by all hazards, has no immunities, and it isn't particularly bulky without investment, this means it has problems switching directly into most of the metagame (Hippowdown does 40~% with EQ + SR + Sand, for example), and that wearing it down isn't difficult.
- Serperior is extremely weak without Life Orb, which makes it significantly easier to wear down, and even with that item its initial power is underwhelming. Many Pokemon can simply not switch out, because +0 Serperior is only really a threat to Pokemon weak to Grass-type moves. A
- Serperior's teammate can help it deal with its counters, but do you think the opponent's team only consist of one Serperior counter? If I'm running Crobat, I'll have something to deal with Pokemon that give Crobat troubles, this is basic teambuilding.
- Serperior can cripple some of its checks and counters with Glare, but it needs excellent prediction for that and loses an important moveslot. The fact it lacks immediate power doesn't help it here at all, because miss predicting means Serperior taking damage while getting no boost. If using status moves with sweepers was half as good as some people here claim it is, WoW Mega Absol and Thunder Wave Porygon-Z would be everywhere.
Last thing, can someone tell me how are Roserade and Amoonguss not good counters / checks?
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 32-39 (9.8 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 166-198 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 93% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 39-47 (9 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 101-120 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%)
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%)
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%)
SR + x2 LO = 32% damage to Serperior. Roserade easily kills, and Amoonguss needs minimal prior damage to guarantee the KO, or it can just run Clear Smog and survive Leaf Storm + boosted HP Ice + non-boosted HP Ice.
"I am disregarding the Glare on the switch-in and the like"
I think that statement alone cans your argument. You can't just ignore paralyzing a switch-in. One of Serperior's best sets is SubGlare for exactly that reason, that it WILL paralyze every switch-in besides Crobat, Noivern, and absolutely horrid shit like Scarf Cloyster.
Unfortunately, it's highly likely you don't care about what arguments are brought up in response to your own reasoning, and you will vote to not ban. And for that reason I hope that this is the last public test UU ever sees, because the majority of players clearly cannot be trusted to make decisions based on what is best for the tier.
EDIT: There's on point I'd like to briefly touch on in Hikari's post just now, and that's about boosting sweepers carrying a status move. Other boosting sweepers need to use a separate slot for their main STAB and boosting move, which does open up a moveslot and is in fact why Serperior is currently a suspect. WoW Absol, if running SD, WoW, and a STAB move, has only one more slot to use. Serperior has two, and that's the difference between hitting an important check super-effectively and winning a game and having your sweep cut short.
I think that statement alone cans your argument. You can't just ignore paralyzing a switch-in. One of Serperior's best sets is SubGlare for exactly that reason, that it WILL paralyze every switch-in besides Crobat, Noivern, and absolutely horrid shit like Scarf Cloyster.
Unfortunately, it's highly likely you don't care about what arguments are brought up in response to your own reasoning, and you will vote to not ban. And for that reason I hope that this is the last public test UU ever sees, because the majority of players clearly cannot be trusted to make decisions based on what is best for the tier.
EDIT: There's on point I'd like to briefly touch on in Hikari's post just now, and that's about boosting sweepers carrying a status move. Other boosting sweepers need to use a separate slot for their main STAB and boosting move, which does open up a moveslot and is in fact why Serperior is currently a suspect. WoW Absol, if running SD, WoW, and a STAB move, has only one more slot to use. Serperior has two, and that's the difference between hitting an important check super-effectively and winning a game and having your sweep cut short.
Last edited:
I really think you're taking the suspect thing way too far. In 6 pages, the vast majority of posts have been describing how broken Serperior is, and that can't be debated. Don't let the statements made by a few people say things about the entire community. There will always be people in the minority, and even if you don't agree with some of the things they say, or their argument as a whole, doesn't give you the right to dismiss this entire, highly knowledgeable community as "uneducated". That is ridiculous. I hope the results of this suspect test proves your own thoughts wrong, because personally I have seen a lot more right than wrong in this thread.
You're right. I'm sorry. I said this earlier, but I'll repeat it anyway: I've seen a lot of stupid posts over the last year of Gen VI UU, but until now, they couldn't do anything to actually fuck up the tier. Now they can, and that scares the living shit out of me. I still remember seeing a guy post on GameFAQs about how he was gonna get reqs for the Landorus-I test back in BW2 specifically to keep Landorus in OU because he hated Smogon. I know these are all outliers, but they still freak me out. I have also seen more right than wrong in this thread, but I like to err extremely far on the side of caution, and I would be at peace with never really making a mark on the metagame in this way (unless I somehow made it onto the Council or whatever, but I'm way too shitty/flaky to do that) if that meant I never had to see UU fucked up.
*deep breath*
Now, back to address another point of Hikari's post that actually goes in hand with my remark earlier: To use the Crobat example, a lot of what you're seeing isn't Serperior's teammates helping it out (though they do in part, I'm seeing a lot of posts about how Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl is a great teammate for being able to trap Crobat), but Serperior's good support movepool in effect. Obviously Blissey shuts down Serperior before it's at +6, but Taunt/Synthesis makes Blissey set-up fodder. Meanwhile, Glare makes Crobat a liability. If you don't have a cleric, now Crobat can't check or counter what it needs to, including Serperior who now can very quickly build up boosts with Leaf Storm and finish it off with Dragon Pulse or Hidden Power Ice.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that Serperior may need some support here and there, but the great Pokemon in UU stacked on top of Serperior is complete overkill that steamrolls most teams without effort.
Another point, to add to that, is the case of SpDef Roserade and Amoonguss. Yes, they're great Serperior stops, but they're also fodder for more Pokemon than they check, including Status Orb SD Heracross, DD Lum Salamence, and Rock Head Tyrantrum. So now you need support for your support and if at any point a link in that chain is broken then you get swept*. Teams with Serperior have less strain on them since Serperior is such a threatening presence.
*: Is this just Teambuilding 101? Because I think I made a good point but I realize this could just be some really basic shit that I'm overlooking.
*deep breath*
Now, back to address another point of Hikari's post that actually goes in hand with my remark earlier: To use the Crobat example, a lot of what you're seeing isn't Serperior's teammates helping it out (though they do in part, I'm seeing a lot of posts about how Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl is a great teammate for being able to trap Crobat), but Serperior's good support movepool in effect. Obviously Blissey shuts down Serperior before it's at +6, but Taunt/Synthesis makes Blissey set-up fodder. Meanwhile, Glare makes Crobat a liability. If you don't have a cleric, now Crobat can't check or counter what it needs to, including Serperior who now can very quickly build up boosts with Leaf Storm and finish it off with Dragon Pulse or Hidden Power Ice.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that Serperior may need some support here and there, but the great Pokemon in UU stacked on top of Serperior is complete overkill that steamrolls most teams without effort.
Another point, to add to that, is the case of SpDef Roserade and Amoonguss. Yes, they're great Serperior stops, but they're also fodder for more Pokemon than they check, including Status Orb SD Heracross, DD Lum Salamence, and Rock Head Tyrantrum. So now you need support for your support and if at any point a link in that chain is broken then you get swept*. Teams with Serperior have less strain on them since Serperior is such a threatening presence.
*: Is this just Teambuilding 101? Because I think I made a good point but I realize this could just be some really basic shit that I'm overlooking.
So after laddering and getting the reqs, I'd like to say Serperior is a major threat in the UU metagame, as it has very few checks and counters (Crobat, Amoonguss, Rotom-H and Goodra) but it still restricts the user to use these mons just to handle that thing. Also, Rotom-H and Crobat aren't counters because with the proper boost and predictions it can shoot a HP Rock and beat them. The taunt wallbreaker set can totally stop Blissey/Florges and set up in front of it and creating a huge hole in your team. Therefore, in my opinion, Serperior is broken in the metagame and I will vote ban.
i dont think hikari's post actually shows that he's on the dnb side, but rather, he's providing an alternative viewpoint to the whole serperior thing, since nearly every argument for the last few pages is focused on how serp predicts the glare, serp gets leaf storm, serp cripples crobat etc. it's something that serp has, but its not something thats gamebreaking or retarded like prankster twave given that many scarfers can check serp or force it out (heracross is a very good example). hikari has raised valid points that shows serp isn't the perfect pokemon, even if he may be a lil' bit retarded.
it's not exactly as "low risk high reward" as it goes since serp isn't the easiest thing to switch into ever and his coverage options is frankly balls.
(also p. sure absolite has room for wisp since knock off and play rough is neutral coverage against every pokemon in the tierexcept for mawile lolol not exactly the best option imo given that i'd still want something to more easily handle aggron but yeah)
either way though, the issue on the table is that serperior is capable of boosting his own offense while dealing damage and nuking stuff: this is something that we haven't seen ever. as it stands, the current remotely offensive grass types don't have the ability to boost their own damage, and the closest you have is shaymin, whom you can switch out of to reset the spdef debuffs (in addition, seed flare's 40% isn't anywhere near leaf storm's 100%). this itself creates a strain on teambuilding: grass has an inherent advantage in uu given that water and ground types are very common in the tier, and you have flying types like crobat, mence and aero who can check them decently (and they're on most teams since you need a heracross answer). considering serperior tilts this matchup towards his favour (due to being able to cripple crobat and aero with glare and he outruns non-scarf versions of mence), its hard to really find a decent answer to this short of random niche sap sipper mons. bouffalant, while brought up as an answer to serperior, has had someone using it admit that it sucks; while zebstrika as an argument is beaten to death (it sucks at even beating most grass types considering that the most it does is threatening with overheat: shaymin tanks this decently, while zebstrika is going to find issues switching into sludge bomb from roserade).
a well played serperior being a threat? that applies to a lot of pokemon in the game: darmanitan and mega glalie can be very threatening under the right hands. the problem is, is serperior "too good" to the point that playing it well pretty much means an extremely big advantage in the part of the serp user? i'd say that serp is currently somewhere along that line, though i suppose more time is needed to get a more solid opinion on this.
it's not exactly as "low risk high reward" as it goes since serp isn't the easiest thing to switch into ever and his coverage options is frankly balls.
(also p. sure absolite has room for wisp since knock off and play rough is neutral coverage against every pokemon in the tier
either way though, the issue on the table is that serperior is capable of boosting his own offense while dealing damage and nuking stuff: this is something that we haven't seen ever. as it stands, the current remotely offensive grass types don't have the ability to boost their own damage, and the closest you have is shaymin, whom you can switch out of to reset the spdef debuffs (in addition, seed flare's 40% isn't anywhere near leaf storm's 100%). this itself creates a strain on teambuilding: grass has an inherent advantage in uu given that water and ground types are very common in the tier, and you have flying types like crobat, mence and aero who can check them decently (and they're on most teams since you need a heracross answer). considering serperior tilts this matchup towards his favour (due to being able to cripple crobat and aero with glare and he outruns non-scarf versions of mence), its hard to really find a decent answer to this short of random niche sap sipper mons. bouffalant, while brought up as an answer to serperior, has had someone using it admit that it sucks; while zebstrika as an argument is beaten to death (it sucks at even beating most grass types considering that the most it does is threatening with overheat: shaymin tanks this decently, while zebstrika is going to find issues switching into sludge bomb from roserade).
a well played serperior being a threat? that applies to a lot of pokemon in the game: darmanitan and mega glalie can be very threatening under the right hands. the problem is, is serperior "too good" to the point that playing it well pretty much means an extremely big advantage in the part of the serp user? i'd say that serp is currently somewhere along that line, though i suppose more time is needed to get a more solid opinion on this.
k im on the no-ban camp regarding serp (mostly cause it can't come in easily and gets wrecked by most major threats in the tier (hera, pidgeot, beedrill, aero, mence) and checked by more mons than people are willing to admit tbh (forry, rose, amoong, crobat, abomasnow, escavalier, scarf fires) but i wanna talk about something else: sheer force gatr.
i've done a few matches with it so far and its been kinda underwhelming. been using a DD 3 attacks @ LO set (waterfall / ice punch / crunch) and the fact that i can't set up on opposing bulky waters reliably irks the hell out of me (ban scald pls). im gonna try a bunch of different sets (DD @ lum, double boosting, SD @ lum/LO) and see what works out.
this is kinda cool though: +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.8 - 65%) ahhh
but it cant really touch cune unless its SD: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%)
i've done a few matches with it so far and its been kinda underwhelming. been using a DD 3 attacks @ LO set (waterfall / ice punch / crunch) and the fact that i can't set up on opposing bulky waters reliably irks the hell out of me (ban scald pls). im gonna try a bunch of different sets (DD @ lum, double boosting, SD @ lum/LO) and see what works out.
this is kinda cool though: +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.8 - 65%) ahhh
but it cant really touch cune unless its SD: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%)
I think a regular SD set will work better most of the time. Sheer Force is more consistent than Torrent as a damage multiplier. You basically trade a Torrent-boosted Aqua Jet for a Sheer-Force boosted coverage move, which regardless of Crunch or Ice Punch, comes out to be much stronger overall than a Torrent-boosted Aqua Jet,
goodra's viable… bouffalant isn't though. sry for the short post.
You guys are acting like Serp is the second coming of Jesus. Despite Leaf Storm doing "damage" (it's pitifully weak without boosts and especially without Life Orb) its still needs at least one free turn get set up and start doing damage. I just wanna ask how that's different from any set up sweeper in any tier... ever. Those free turns aren't all that easy to come by tbh, like people much smarter than myself have pointed out (Hikari/Koko). And lastly, holy crap if Koko doesn't want to ban it, it's clearly not broken (/badjoke).
I'm just tired of UU players wanting to ban anything that has attacks and does damage.
I'm just tired of UU players wanting to ban anything that has attacks and does damage.
- Status