np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[Talpr0ne]

Imagine that I indeed kill Forretress with HP Fire, as you suggest. The next Pokemon in for my opponent is Salamence, and it holds a Lum Berry. Salamence knows that the worst Serp can do to it is Glare, which gives it a chance to get in a nice, free Dragon Dance. I'm now facing a +1/+1 Mence that forces my Serperior out, and threatens my entire team. Forretress, by comparison, has plenty of easy, hard counters and there are more than a few offensive Pokemon that can simply set up all over Forretress. I'd much rather cover Salamence with my offensive coverage than Forretress.

except glare is not the worse that Serperior can do to Salamence

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 308-364 (93 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Ununhexium]

except glare is not the worse that Serperior can do to Salamence

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 308-364 (93 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

You missed this point entirely. He said if HP fire were the coverage of choice allnyou could do is glare while if you had dragon pulse you can do that

 

[Kurona]

Wait, am I missing something here? Why is Leaf Storm/HP Fire/Glare/Dragon Pulse not a valid set?

 

[Tom the Bomb]

I mean you can run Dpulse and HP Fire, but then you would lose out on other utility such as Synthesis, Giga drain, Taunt etc.

 

[Hogg]

Losing Speed ties to other Serps on an offensive set really is kind of a big deal. I prefer not to use HP Fire for that reason alone.

 

[Chronobreak]

Alright ill admit I was wrong about the scarf jirachi/mence comparison. Ill make another post about some other points later. Still think no ban tho

 

[Magis4Life]

Hey,

Not going to make a huge post right now because I'm really tired, but I wanted to add something addressing a bit of the hype serp is getting. The thing that's at least strange to me, is how no one thought serp was broken post tier shifts aka jirachi and celebi were still in the tier. Suddenly, tier shifts start, serp loses no checks or counters, gains 2, and suddenly people are saying it's broken. I feel like a lot of the hype(for lack of a better word) surrounding serperior, was because it was an excellent check/counter depending on the set, to terrakion. But maybe I'm wrong, and someone can correct me. I'm also feeling like the glare argument is a bit weak because I feel it's only niche over t wave is that it can para ground and electric types, which h aren't going to be switching into serp anyway, meaning that I feel you can use "paralyze the switchin" for a lot of similar mons if you choose to run t-wave, which is fairly common.

I know you said you were going to post further on why you think serp is not banworthy and i am looking forward to it, as i like hearing ideas contrary (pun intended) to what I support. Nevertheless, I wanted to ask you again why you think the glare argument is "a bit weak". I assume you mean that there are other offensive mons who can t-wave as well and furthermore glare is typically so common that checks to serp won't switch in? The thing is with serp is that it already exhibits excellent offensive pressure on the opponent as it can pretty much set up on/ plough through practically every bulky water/ ground in the tier that are common staples on the majority of teams as we know. In addition to this, however, its third and fourth moves can cripple its checks/counters. This, as you noted, discourages switch ins, which ofc gives serperior an added advantage of more often than not successfully revenge killing weakened threats or the bulky water/ground in play while setting up on the same turn. What serp displays over other cleaners is the immense offensive pressure it provides on the opponent (there are very few reliable switch ins to serp, even something like chandelure can get destroyed by a +2 leaf storm after sr making bulky answers to serp few in number.) Glare is ofc amazing at crippling offensive answers to the point where those said threats hate to nonchalantly switch in on it. This further helps serperior reliably revenge weakened threats or take out a mon while setting up simultaneously, further increasing offensive momentum and putting more pressure on the opponent, which serp already does pretty well due to sitting at an excellent speed tier and hitting hard with a powerful grass STAB that not only already shits on common staples on a given team but increases serps power with no drawback other than the slightly imperfect accuracy. Sure there are answers to it, and sure a well built team will have answers to a serp as few as there are(which is why serp won't just flat out 6-0 teams, however just the move glare alone further promotes serp's utility on an offensive team early game and has the tools it needs to clean with great ease. On top of 5 other members that are paired with serp, I find the snake to bring so much to the table offensively and such a little opportunity cost mon that i find arguably to be too much for the tier. This post is a bit long and I am on a mobile phone atm(as I usually am on the forums :P) so I hope what I said was somewhat coherent.

 

[Patrick1088]

reachzero glare alone is why they are checks and not counters especially for mega aero and beedrill which cannot take a boosted LS.

Hp fire hits all those mons bard. I find glare is enough to deter crobat from switching in moat of the time. Pair it up with a rock type like Mega aero or Tyrantrum and theres little reason to run hp ice. leaf storm/ glare/ hp fire and dpulse nail everything for neutral damage in UU. If you run hp ice, the. The number of counters increasesto include AV escavalier, mega aggron, etc.. hp ice is generally not as viable as hp fire when glare and teammates can handle crobat with relative ease.

 

[dingbat]

Tbf, not much has changed since serperior got banned in the first place,,,

Serperior has the ability to choose which checks and counters it. Yes, serperior has a very barren offensive movepool outside of leaf storm, but that in effect left it with so many options as to what support moves it wants to run. The main reason why Serperior jumped from B rank to S rank under a span of less than one month is because the community found innovative ways to effectively utilise its support movepool alongside Contrary Leaf Storm, and in effect, Serperior gas become a complete monster here.

That being said, it's time for me to sit back and watch as this serpent summons upon us the wrath of nature. If you guys didn't know by now, I dropped out of the council since i've essentially lost interest in battling at this point.

 

[Tom Bus]

I've been away from UU for a few months, but it seems like Crobat is the only thing that wants to switch in on Serperior, and even Crobat is heavily crippled by glare. I guess Amoonguss and spdef Roserade could be decent counters, and it's nice having more answers to Suicune in UU, but Serperior probably needs to get banned. Goodra also switches in pretty easily, though.

Edit: I don't think Serperior is broken, because it does have quite a few reliable switch ins, but I think that the metagame would improve if Serperior were to be banned as it limits teambuilding a lot.

 

[Patrick1088]

I mean you can run Dpulse and HP Fire, but then you would lose out on other utility such as Synthesis, Giga drain, Taunt etc.

Those are niche moves that can help it set up easier, but a LO attacking set is just as viable. Fire/dragon/grass give it fantastic coverage moreso than Hp ice and grass just so it can fit taunt or synthesis.

Losing to hp ice serperior only hurts when theyre boosted. Even then uninvested serp has a good chance to survive the hit.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 247-291 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

But, you shouldnt be switching your Hp Fire serp into a boosted serp. Let one of the few checks it has force it out or KO it. When it comes down to an uninvested serp vs serp battle, its better just glare, sub up, or let your teammate handle it. So, the speed doeant make that much of a difference, but the coverage does.

So, id argue hp ice is OK for crobat swith ins since itll be unboosted 99% of the time since you predicted the bat switch in, which the opponent predicted the leaf storm. but, glare is just too crippling and spammable. You really dont need hp ice for bat or dragons.

Taunt, giga drain, synthesis, sub are all good, but all of thrm fail to infiltrator crobat and noivern no way around it. The pros of having HP fire (popping m aggron, forry, escavalier, etc..) along with d pulse (only resisted by steels and fairies) outweigh the nrgatives (speed loss to opposing serp, inability to hit crobat SE when youre most likely going to be KOd or forced out).

 

[UU ALL DAY]

So, do people think serp would be too broken if it were to stay?

 

[Schpoonman]

Yes. Even when arguing what Serperior's best coverage move is (hint: It's all of them, which is part of what makes Serperior borked as fuck), we can all agree that it's broken as hell. Except that one idiot who also wanted Victini back.

 

[brokenwings]

Serperior is just completely broken in this tier, the only "reliable" answers it has are Sap Sipper mons.. The few non-gimmick mons that would otherwise be able to switch-in and take a hit (Crobat, Amoonguss, Roserade, etc) really don't appreciate Glare or a +2 Hidden Power and are pretty easy to wear down or deal with via teammates. It's pretty obvious that this thing has no place in UU, the sooner it is gone the better.

SpD Roserade: NOT offensive Roserade, which takes a ton of damage from a +2 HP Ice. You are taking only ~30% from +2 HP Ice, and Sludge Bomb still does plenty to Serp. Has the downside of being completely walled in every way (except Sleep Powder) by Crobat, which is already a very good and common Pokemon in this metagame, Serp aside.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 32-39 (9.8 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 166-198 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 93% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

???

 

[HT]

The fact that Serperior is allowed on the suspect ladder kinda makes me not even want to get reqs lol, but I wanna ban this broken shit so I guess I'm gonna have to. As a lot of people have previously stated, the meta hasn't really changed too much since it was last banned so it's still just as overpowered as it was before. Being able to hit with a 130 BP move while getting a nasty plot at the same time is just ridiculous, but when paired with its great speed as well it can steamroll past any team archetype. Glare sets smack Offense around while Taunt sets crush Stall/Semistall. Obviously it can't run both sets at the same time, but having the possibility of glaring an incoming Crobat or Taunting a low Blissey really makes your opponent think twice about sending them in. And the thing about Sap Sipper mons being 'counters': these things get worn down way too easily from being forced to switch in to Serp and taking Hazard and other miscellaneous damage throughout the game. Ban

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Yes. Even when arguing what Serperior's best coverage move is (hint: It's all of them, which is part of what makes Serperior borked as fuck), we can all agree that it's broken as hell. Except that one idiot who also wanted Victini back.

different opinion =/= idiot. truly you are a gent.

i use specially defensive forry and mence on one of my teams, and i haven't had any real issues with serp. I think it's one of the most solid suicine/bulky water checks.

at least mega pidegot is a lord atm

 

[slated]

Serperior is just completely broken in this tier, the only "reliable" answers it has are Sap Sipper mons.. The few non-gimmick mons that would otherwise be able to switch-in and take a hit (Crobat, Amoonguss, Roserade, etc) really don't appreciate Glare or a +2 Hidden Power and are pretty easy to wear down or deal with via teammates. It's pretty obvious that this thing has no place in UU, the sooner it is gone the better.




252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 32-39 (9.8 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 166-198 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 93% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

???

not to mention sludge bomb only does about half to standard serp from spdef rade, so if it runs hp ice or hp fire your spdef roserade is done for.

different opinion =/= idiot. truly you are a gent.

i use specially defensive forry and mence on one of my teams, and i haven't had any real issues with serp. I think it's one of the most solid suicine/bulky water checks.

at least mega pidegot is a lord atm

This is not meant as a personal attack and please don't take it that way, but saying "I haven't had any real issues with it" isn't a good argument at all. Perhaps your Forretress hasn't been worn down at all throughout the course of a match, or perhaps the Serperiors you see haven't been running HP Fire, or maybe even haven't been running Dragon Pulse to deal with Salamence. Neither of the pokemon you stated are particularly good checks at all, and the tier only has a handful; spdef forry also isn't too useful outside of soft-checking serp, and I can't think of one thing it does outside of soft-checking serp that suicide lead forry or physdef forry don't do better. the only mence that can reliably handle serp is scarfmence, as dd lum mence and all other versions of mence that don't outspeed it take a ton of damage from dragon pulse and are crippled by glare (not to mention, scarfed outrage doesn't even ohko, so it can't switch in, because dragon pulse OHKO's after +2.)

not trying to bash you, just trying to make sure that you not having problems by running two very shaky checks at best doesn't mean it's not broken.

 

[Ununhexium]

I don't know why people are commenting on stuff getting 2HKOed at +2 when switching

Why the hell are you letting it get to +2 THEN switching

 

[slated]

I don't know why people are commenting on stuff getting 2HKOed at +2 when switching

Why the hell are you letting it get to +2 THEN switching

The point of serp v. roserade is roserade switching into a Leaf Storm then having to take an HP Ice, while not OHKOing with Sludge Bomb unless it's offensive, in which case HP Ice/HP Fire OHKO's after +2.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

LiberalLucario, I wasn't commenting at all that serp isn't broken. I was saying that I personally hadn't had any trouble with mence and forry as okay pivots. I am saying that just because someone else has a different opinion doesn't mean someone should be labeled as an idiot.

Serp doesn't have many offensive checks, and those offensive ones can be beaten by glare + coverage. I like the taunt syn set to beat stall, since a lot of teams are running bliss + some sort of fairy for hera.

 

[nv]

I am not gonna make a lengthy post as most know that this snake is banworthy, but I still wanna participate and put in my thoughts.

Serperior has everything it can want with Contrary and an amazing base 113 Speed. It has a boosting / attacking move in Leaf Storm, decent coverage in Dragon Pulse and a Hidden Power (preferably not Rock or Fire as that makes you lose to other Serps not running those Hidden Powers), and that is all within 2 moveslots. This means it has two free moveslots to do whatever the hell it wants. Need a stallbreaker? Run Synthesis + Taunt. Need an offensive win condition? Run Giga Drain + a Hidden Power or Dragon Pulse with a Life Orb > Meadow Plate (the preferred item imo). This thing has everything going for it, and while I am shocked just how well Serperior is with the release of its hidden ability, I will be speaking Parseltongue to the snake (i.e. ban the snake).

 

[Schpoonman]

I agree, a differing argument does not qualify someone as an idiot. I hate stall, but a lot of insanely smart (much much smarter than me) players play stall.

What DOES make you an idiot is the argument "We should unban this thought-to-be-broken Pokemon because it would be interesting," and who then follows that up with a call to unban another Pokemon that was more conclusively proven to be broken, with no actual backing argument.

I reserve the right, as should the rest of you, to treat toxic ideas entering the community with all the hostility that my body would treat a toxin entering it. I am a very firm believer in the idea that some things are not worth salvaging. If a user is asking why Serperior is broken and brings an example as to why he thinks it isn't, that shows an open mind that can be nurtured. We can show him replays of the best players UU has to offer being flattened by Serperior, would-be counters being beaten by Serperior's excellent movepool and the minimal support it needs.

But for someone arguing that a Pokemon isn't broken, or arguing to keep it despite acknowledging it being broken, for ideals completely contrary (I swear this wasn't on purpose) to Smogon's purpose, I don't think we need to spend the time entertaining and rationalizing these posts when it's simply easier and healthier to ignore it and move on.

EDIT to below: You're absolutely right, and I am used to a higher level of thinking because of the nature of UU before now. I can only hope that our new leaders and everyone will pitch in to keep us on our toes. In fairness, posts like these did happen before, and they got much the same treatment as is happening now (someone dismisses them, someone calls out the first guy for being hostile, first guy argues that he's in the right for how he treated the post), but maybe I'm a little more on edge because for god's sake these people can actually fuck the tier up now. But like I said, gonna trust in the leaders, Council, and other esteemed members of the community to not let that happen.

 

[yamb]

-snip-

Not saying you're wrong, as I wholeheartedly agree that the Verlisify-tier idea of "counters will suddenly materialize eventually, you idiots just need to be CREATIVE" is bunk and should be denounced every time it's brought up, but this is what suspect threads are like. You're always going to see low effort shitposts in suspect threads because of their seemingly democratic nature. In reality suspects are meritocratic, but while it takes some effort to get reqs, it takes absolutely no effort to toss your opinion into a thread. I think you're right to discourage and call out bad arguments, but you might end up driving yourself crazy if you take everything in the suspect thread as seriously as you took posts in the previous metagame threads.

 

[ManOfMany]

not to mention sludge bomb only does about half to standard serp from spdef rade, so if it runs hp ice or hp fire your spdef roserade is done for.

U wot?
0 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Roserade doesn't have 125 SpA for nothing. Considering the best Serperiors run life orb, which will deplete their health, sludge bomb should KO it a majority of the time.

 

[Schpoonman]

Rock Polish Tyrantrum is a fucking nightmare.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-213652623

It's been a fucking dream turning one of the tier's best Pokemon into a liability, though I have been forced to improvise once or twice when a Crobat was carrying Taunt.