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np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited
- Thread starter Sam
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Yeah, I think we can largely agree that serperior is disgusting. It boasts the ability to shit on all playstyles (the taunt+synthesis set works wonders against stall), has pretty much everything it needs to wreck in a heavily water dominated metagame. I usually used hp fire to smack forretress and steels in general (back when rachi was present) but hp ice is definitely good too (smacking crobat, hydreigon, and mence always feels good.) Even solid checks by crobat can't switch in to serp just like that because of glare (even knock off is decent for getting rid of lefties on a defensive threat or scarf on say a hydreigon). It has excellent utility early game in luring in its (very few) switch ins, and can wreck late game with ease.
I like Serp, don't get me wrong, but there's just... too little that can be done to stop it. Crobat, Aero, and the slimy dragon whose name I can't remember are the only things that can really give it a problem (that I can think of right now), but unless you have a team dedicated to stopping it, there's not much you can do when it sets up other than pray it misses and you get a lucky KO.
Just my opinion here, little worth as it is.
Just my opinion here, little worth as it is.
Contrary in general is a pretty stupid ability, even outside of the obvious Leaf Storm. Giving Serperior a +1 Evasion boost from Defog can be pretty irritating, and any stat drop side effects from moves such as Moonblast, Shadow Ball or Crunch will work against you.
Sticky Web? Gl hf.
Not a main reason to ban ofc but since most of us are already in agreement I thought it'd be worth pointing out that the nuisance of Contrary extends beyond Leaf Storm.
Sticky Web? Gl hf.
Not a main reason to ban ofc but since most of us are already in agreement I thought it'd be worth pointing out that the nuisance of Contrary extends beyond Leaf Storm.
Not to derail the topic of Serperior...
But am I the only one who shits bricks everytime I see a Tyrantrum get a safe switch in from Voltturn. This pokemon is an absolute beast!
But am I the only one who shits bricks everytime I see a Tyrantrum get a safe switch in from Voltturn. This pokemon is an absolute beast!
Serperior is absurdly over-centralizing( I WITNESSED A ZEBSTRIKA) right now. Its speed and ability make anything that is not quad weak to leaf storm, unable to be switched in. And access to Glare makes any crobat or any "Counter" that is switching in becomes less of a "counter" on the next switch in. Once the "counter" is dealt with, your game is won hoping you do not miss leaf storm.
Dear UU Community,
Please stop running MUK to counter Serperior. There are much better poison types.
Thanks,
Patrick
Seriosuly though, ive been seeing muk troll around the suspect ladder. If these are the type of people who get to determine then UU is in trouble if they make Reqs for some reason.
But, Serp is pretty clear test IMO. It can tear stall apart, check HO sticky web teams with Contrary, promotes mindless clicking of Leaf storm, and forces everybody to use the same few mons to try and check Serp (Crobat. Mega Aero, Mega Beedrill). Other stuff like scarf ape and darm are viable too, but can be maimed with a boosted Leaf Storm with hazards.
Please stop running MUK to counter Serperior. There are much better poison types.
Thanks,
Patrick
Seriosuly though, ive been seeing muk troll around the suspect ladder. If these are the type of people who get to determine then UU is in trouble if they make Reqs for some reason.
But, Serp is pretty clear test IMO. It can tear stall apart, check HO sticky web teams with Contrary, promotes mindless clicking of Leaf storm, and forces everybody to use the same few mons to try and check Serp (Crobat. Mega Aero, Mega Beedrill). Other stuff like scarf ape and darm are viable too, but can be maimed with a boosted Leaf Storm with hazards.
Exactly, and of course the zebstrika (bring the pitches and forks y'all) but the points above stated is what makes the smug snake a little bit of cancer...
But lets think about the fact that if the snake gets baned to OU, what could it do there? Of course there are the counter in the form of talon, mega-venu, ferro, heatran, skarm (but being serious if those guys that also check themselves out lel, can't really handle it I wonder, just wander if the zombie leaf storm clicking can get one of the worst starters to HIgh OU/low ubers, just to give you a piece of my mind, remember what ppl said about fighting-fire hot chicken: it sets up easily, doesn't have the best movepool (but doesn't need it) and just like serperior a hidden ability made a meh pokemon (it was in FU fgs) and now only arceus knows where will it end up
Since I see this a lot, please let me note that it's extremely dangerous to switch any of those three Pokemon into Serp (because of Glare). If anyone is looking for some actual answers to Serperior, I have a few that aren't terrible.
Forretress: Because it 4x resists Grass and 2X resists Ice, it can switch into any Serperior that doesn't have HP Fire (which is a terrible option, because Serp needs HP Ice to beat Crobat, Mence, etc., AND HP Fire costs you a speed point). Gyro Ball 2HKOs, so you consistently win.
SpD Roserade: NOT offensive Roserade, which takes a ton of damage from a +2 HP Ice. You are taking only ~30% from +2 HP Ice, and Sludge Bomb still does plenty to Serp. Has the downside of being completely walled in every way (except Sleep Powder) by Crobat, which is already a very good and common Pokemon in this metagame, Serp aside.
Amoonguss: My personal favorite, since it also takes on Fighting types really well, and doesn't need to invest SpD EVs to hard counter Serp (max HP is enough). Has some versatility in its set.
There are a few other options, like Goodra, but since they tend to be much less effective overall than the three I mentioned above, I consider them to be subpar options, even if they are better specifically for countering Serperior. While these three Pokemon are pretty decent, the fact that Serp is such a complete package and team player means that you can easily pick teammates that handle and even set up on the few Pokemon that can actually deal with Serp. This makes Serperior really, really hard to deal with.
I'm curious as to why you think HP Fire completely isn't an option. The only Pokemon relevant that you would lose a speed tie to is other Serperior (based 113 Speed), while Glare completely cripples basically all the Pokemon that would try to come in and revenge it. And, uh. Your Gyro Ball calc is a little fucked up.
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 120-142 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's minimum Speed Forretress using Gyro Ball on a 252+ Serperior. After Life Orb you still don't have a guaranteed KO. But really, why is Hidden Power Fire such a terrible option?
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 120-142 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's minimum Speed Forretress using Gyro Ball on a 252+ Serperior. After Life Orb you still don't have a guaranteed KO. But really, why is Hidden Power Fire such a terrible option?
Alright, Serperior is ridiculous and it has a maximum of 2 good answers at most, both of which can't really be called good answers because they simply would not be considered for a team if serperior was not in the tier, those two being SpDef Roserade and Amoonguss. If you want something to beat fighting types, there are much better options than Amoonguss in the tier (Florges, Crobat, Granbull and Nidoqueen are included in this argument). I have not seen a single amoonguss in months, despite the fact that I play the tier almost daily. This is exactly what happens when broken mons are introduced into the tier: people use pokemon that otherwise would not be considered to check that specific pokemon (see Slowking / Doublade in Mega Medicham and Staraptor meta, huge rise in Whimsicott during the Zygarde meta). I don't really like using roserade in general, but SpDef roserade, at least in my opinion, is generally an inferior set of a decent-at-best pokemon, mostly due to the fact that it isn't even able to check Suicune of any kind, which is the only reason I would use Roserade in the first place. The other options that have been mentioned are:
Forretress: Yeah no. Forretress is a terrible option which actually lets serperior set up. Serperior has a ridiculous amount of bulk for such a potent setup sweeper, allowing it to take 76 BP Gyro Balls easily. In addition, standard Physically Defensive Forretress takes ~20-24% from Life Orb boosted leaf storm initially, and what is obviously the most broken part of Serperior is how much the damage increases the longer it stays in: that damage doubles up to 40-48% after +2, which means your Forretress will be at around 40-50% after 2 leaf storms and leftovers recovery assuming you're switching into serperior with your forretress, and it only deals 41-48% with Gyro Ball. Therefore, Serperior is going to be sitting at around 35% after 2 rounds of LO recoil. If it runs Synthesis, Forretress is in an even worse condition, since it gives Serperior a free +6 and leaves it at about 50% when forretress dies instead of 25%. Also to reachzero's post: Gyro Ball 2HKO's? This is the most damage you're going to get out of Gyro Ball onto a Timid Max Speed Serperior:
252 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Forretress is a very, very shaky check at best, and I would hesitate to even call it a check. And, if you run 252 attack, you're either giving up your HP investment which means you take even more from Leaf Storm, or you're giving up your defense investment, which makes forry less effective outside of checking Serperior.
Moving onto Goodra: Goodra is the only viable Sap Sipper user in this tier, and even it is worn down by Dragon Pulses trying to switch in. Also, CB Goodra is the only Goodra set that should ever be run, as AV goodra is really, really weak and shut down by pretty much any defensive pokemon in the tier. Again, between Dragon Pulse, entry hazard (if you have them up) and residual damage goodra is a very shaky check but it can serve as one.
On the other hand, we have multiple offensive checks that can't switch in, including Crobat (fear of Glare), Mega Aerodactyl (Leaf Storm does 64-76% to 40 HP Mega Aero), Mega Beedrill (Fear of Glare, gets hit hard by Dragon Pulse and HP Fire, and loses 1/4 of its health to a quad resisted Leaf Storm), Choice Scarf Darmanitan and Infernape (again, Glare and Dragon Pulse / Leaf Storm; Leaf Storm does 44-51% to Darmanitan unboosted with a LO and a little more to Infernape, 2hkoing both), and Fletchinder, which doesn't appreciate a LO Dragon Pulse, taking almost half.
Far and away the biggest issue with Serperior to me is that it causes issues for every playstyle considering all of the possible movesets it can run. Glare screws with offense and offense lacks a true switchin, as everything that doesn't care about being paralyzed (not much) is destroyed by LO or Meadow Plate boosted Leaf Storms, and Serperior outspeeds most of the stuff on standard offense as well with its ridiculous speed tier. Balance dislikes Taunt Serperior, as it's capable of shutting down all of the defensive answers to Serperior easily. The offensive and support pokemon on Balance which can deal with Taunt Serperior dislike Glare, as stuff like Crobat, Entei, and Mega Aerodactyl can all be crippled on switch-in. Balance has it the easiest though, and stall has it the hardest; stall is basically forced to run SpDef Roserade, Amoonguss or AV Goodra (none of which stall wants to run) or it's an automatic loss vs Taunt + Synthesis Serperior which can blow it's way through stuff like Blissey with ease. We have never seen a pokemon so adept at handling every playstyle as easily as Serperior does and so capable of ripping its way through entire teams with just one move. The downside of setup sweepers is that they have to try to find a turn to setup, which means taking chip damage, getting statused, or possibly getting phazed out if they want to try and set up; Serperior is able to work as a revenge-killer, a wallbreaker, and a setup sweeper all with one move. The ridiculousness of the moveset of Serperior is that it has 2 free slots, in my opinion; all it has to run is Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse, and in the last 2 slots it can run any combination of Taunt, Synthesis, Leech Seed, Substitute, Glare, HP Fire, and HP Ice, all of which give it ways to get around its few checks.
so tl;dr for those of who you didn't bother to read my endless droning: serperior has few answers in the tier at all, and those answers it does have are shaky at best, whether it be checking serperior or doing well in the tier at all; this list is restricted to spdef roserade and defensive amoonguss, with the possible inclusion of av goodra, while all other answers cannot switchin due to fear of leaf storm or a coverage move. serperior is easily able to handle any playstyle currently effective in the UU metagame and thus it should be banned.
good luck to those of you shooting for reqs!
Forretress: Yeah no. Forretress is a terrible option which actually lets serperior set up. Serperior has a ridiculous amount of bulk for such a potent setup sweeper, allowing it to take 76 BP Gyro Balls easily. In addition, standard Physically Defensive Forretress takes ~20-24% from Life Orb boosted leaf storm initially, and what is obviously the most broken part of Serperior is how much the damage increases the longer it stays in: that damage doubles up to 40-48% after +2, which means your Forretress will be at around 40-50% after 2 leaf storms and leftovers recovery assuming you're switching into serperior with your forretress, and it only deals 41-48% with Gyro Ball. Therefore, Serperior is going to be sitting at around 35% after 2 rounds of LO recoil. If it runs Synthesis, Forretress is in an even worse condition, since it gives Serperior a free +6 and leaves it at about 50% when forretress dies instead of 25%. Also to reachzero's post: Gyro Ball 2HKO's? This is the most damage you're going to get out of Gyro Ball onto a Timid Max Speed Serperior:
252 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Forretress is a very, very shaky check at best, and I would hesitate to even call it a check. And, if you run 252 attack, you're either giving up your HP investment which means you take even more from Leaf Storm, or you're giving up your defense investment, which makes forry less effective outside of checking Serperior.
Moving onto Goodra: Goodra is the only viable Sap Sipper user in this tier, and even it is worn down by Dragon Pulses trying to switch in. Also, CB Goodra is the only Goodra set that should ever be run, as AV goodra is really, really weak and shut down by pretty much any defensive pokemon in the tier. Again, between Dragon Pulse, entry hazard (if you have them up) and residual damage goodra is a very shaky check but it can serve as one.
On the other hand, we have multiple offensive checks that can't switch in, including Crobat (fear of Glare), Mega Aerodactyl (Leaf Storm does 64-76% to 40 HP Mega Aero), Mega Beedrill (Fear of Glare, gets hit hard by Dragon Pulse and HP Fire, and loses 1/4 of its health to a quad resisted Leaf Storm), Choice Scarf Darmanitan and Infernape (again, Glare and Dragon Pulse / Leaf Storm; Leaf Storm does 44-51% to Darmanitan unboosted with a LO and a little more to Infernape, 2hkoing both), and Fletchinder, which doesn't appreciate a LO Dragon Pulse, taking almost half.
Far and away the biggest issue with Serperior to me is that it causes issues for every playstyle considering all of the possible movesets it can run. Glare screws with offense and offense lacks a true switchin, as everything that doesn't care about being paralyzed (not much) is destroyed by LO or Meadow Plate boosted Leaf Storms, and Serperior outspeeds most of the stuff on standard offense as well with its ridiculous speed tier. Balance dislikes Taunt Serperior, as it's capable of shutting down all of the defensive answers to Serperior easily. The offensive and support pokemon on Balance which can deal with Taunt Serperior dislike Glare, as stuff like Crobat, Entei, and Mega Aerodactyl can all be crippled on switch-in. Balance has it the easiest though, and stall has it the hardest; stall is basically forced to run SpDef Roserade, Amoonguss or AV Goodra (none of which stall wants to run) or it's an automatic loss vs Taunt + Synthesis Serperior which can blow it's way through stuff like Blissey with ease. We have never seen a pokemon so adept at handling every playstyle as easily as Serperior does and so capable of ripping its way through entire teams with just one move. The downside of setup sweepers is that they have to try to find a turn to setup, which means taking chip damage, getting statused, or possibly getting phazed out if they want to try and set up; Serperior is able to work as a revenge-killer, a wallbreaker, and a setup sweeper all with one move. The ridiculousness of the moveset of Serperior is that it has 2 free slots, in my opinion; all it has to run is Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse, and in the last 2 slots it can run any combination of Taunt, Synthesis, Leech Seed, Substitute, Glare, HP Fire, and HP Ice, all of which give it ways to get around its few checks.
so tl;dr for those of who you didn't bother to read my endless droning: serperior has few answers in the tier at all, and those answers it does have are shaky at best, whether it be checking serperior or doing well in the tier at all; this list is restricted to spdef roserade and defensive amoonguss, with the possible inclusion of av goodra, while all other answers cannot switchin due to fear of leaf storm or a coverage move. serperior is easily able to handle any playstyle currently effective in the UU metagame and thus it should be banned.
good luck to those of you shooting for reqs!
In Doublade's defense (and to my own chagrin, I made this mistake before I lost to a stallish sand team just a few days ago), it does have a niche in the current metagame. It's still a decent answer to Salamence lacking Fire Blast or Flamethrower, since it needs boosted Earthquake to come anywhere close to KOing you.
You guys STILL don't have the right calc for Gyro Ball. 252+ Serperior versus 0 EV 0 IV Forretress should yield 117 BP. Unfortunately, because Serperior is the versatile piece of shit he is, I really can't give you any others besides 0 Speed Seperior which is 86 BP. Anyway, here's 252+ Gyro Ball versus 252+ Speed Serperior.
252+ Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 171-202 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You guys STILL don't have the right calc for Gyro Ball. 252+ Serperior versus 0 EV 0 IV Forretress should yield 117 BP. Unfortunately, because Serperior is the versatile piece of shit he is, I really can't give you any others besides 0 Speed Seperior which is 86 BP. Anyway, here's 252+ Gyro Ball versus 252+ Speed Serperior.
252+ Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (117 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 171-202 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Yeah, my technical error there; the calc doesnt give you 0 ivs or the -speed nature, so when I finally got the right calc (relaxed, 0 speed ivs) and later calced adamant, I forgot to input to 0 speed ivs.
Also I never said Doublade wasn't effective in the current metagame, but you can't argue that in the Staraptor or Mega Medicham meta it wasn't in the least prominent or considered "good" in the metagame, but only rose to prominence because of the broken 'mons it had to check, drawing parallels to Serperior and SpDef Roserade / AV Goodra / Amoonguss.
I agree that it checking broken Pokemon gave it a path to prominence, but it's stayed. The question is whether or not SpDef Roserade/AV Goodra/Amoonguss can make the same claim.
Hey,
Not going to make a huge post right now because I'm really tired, but I wanted to add something addressing a bit of the hype serp is getting. The thing that's at least strange to me, is how no one thought serp was broken post tier shifts aka jirachi and celebi were still in the tier. Suddenly, tier shifts start, serp loses no checks or counters, gains 2, and suddenly people are saying it's broken. I feel like a lot of the hype(for lack of a better word) surrounding serperior, was because it was an excellent check/counter depending on the set, to terrakion. But maybe I'm wrong, and someone can correct me. I'm also feeling like the glare argument is a bit weak because I feel it's only niche over t wave is that it can para ground and electric types, which h aren't going to be switching into serp anyway, meaning that I feel you can use "paralyze the switchin" for a lot of similar mons if you choose to run t-wave, which is fairly common.
Not going to make a huge post right now because I'm really tired, but I wanted to add something addressing a bit of the hype serp is getting. The thing that's at least strange to me, is how no one thought serp was broken post tier shifts aka jirachi and celebi were still in the tier. Suddenly, tier shifts start, serp loses no checks or counters, gains 2, and suddenly people are saying it's broken. I feel like a lot of the hype(for lack of a better word) surrounding serperior, was because it was an excellent check/counter depending on the set, to terrakion. But maybe I'm wrong, and someone can correct me. I'm also feeling like the glare argument is a bit weak because I feel it's only niche over t wave is that it can para ground and electric types, which h aren't going to be switching into serp anyway, meaning that I feel you can use "paralyze the switchin" for a lot of similar mons if you choose to run t-wave, which is fairly common.
You say Serp didnt lose any counters, but Jirachi and Celebi moving up were 2 counters that left, just sayin'.
I would actually be totally with Victini coming back in that case because that is hell of Rock Polish fodder if I ever saw it.
Granted, Celebi has natural cure, but jirachi could still be "paralyzed by Glare switching in", and actually cares a fair bit about being paralyzed. Also, we gained two resists from the shifts, so I guess they kinda cancel each other out in terms of resisted mons
And we gained scarfmence, which does almost the same thing, but yet is not considered a decent answer.
Because Serperior has Dragon Pulse. And I really doubt any Salamence wants to get hit by +2 Pulse.
Scarfmence can't take a hit and it can't OHKO either, so it's a rather shaky check. Jirachi can take Leaf storm + a (+2) HP fire, plus the flinch chance.
Serperior is already a menace in OU, let alone UU. I feel this test is somewhat unnecessary since it'll rise in usage and become OU by default regardless of this suspect's outcome. It'll still be fun to play with Serperior in UU while it lasts though. The regal Pokemon is also nowhere near as frail as people make him out to be either.
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scarfmence can't provide a get out of jail free card the way scarfrachi does by flinching people to death... it's way far from "almost the same thing", and the only thing scarfmence has in common with scarfrachi is that both are 100 speed. also mence sucks at checking serp
at least jirachi can attempt to cheat its way through with iron head roflmao
Imagine that I indeed kill Forretress with HP Fire, as you suggest. The next Pokemon in for my opponent is Salamence, and it holds a Lum Berry. Salamence knows that the worst Serp can do to it is Glare, which gives it a chance to get in a nice, free Dragon Dance. I'm now facing a +1/+1 Mence that forces my Serperior out, and threatens my entire team. Forretress, by comparison, has plenty of easy, hard counters and there are more than a few offensive Pokemon that can simply set up all over Forretress. I'd much rather cover Salamence with my offensive coverage than Forretress.
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