Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

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Ares

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Yah as said above the question isn't is Chatot broken? It is Chatot uncompetitive? Does having a move that gives you a 100% chance to confuse and the chance to beat Pokemon you otherwise would have no chance against without confusion uncompetitive?

I'm in the middle on this one as its no where near as bad as swagger / twave users, but I can sway either way on this.

Please dont say 'im using chatter as heat wave can miss' or 'i need that 2.5 more damage on ghosts', as you are not; you are using chatter just to make yourself in an advantageous situation using hax. You cannot compare this to a 25% chance of prankster twave, which is competitively used to stop sweeps, and it is entirely different than confuse ray as most of the time the users would rather be spreading status (eg gourgeist) or hitting hard (eg golduck).
I mean it is Chatot's only special Flying-type STAB move, if there was a better one I would use it.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Even people who don't want to ban it admit it's uncompetitive. So ban it.

Once Chatter is gone you can use Air Cutter. 5 BP weaker, 95% accuracy, chance to crit. Better than nothing.
 

Anty

let's drop
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I mean it is Chatot's only special Flying-type STAB move, if there was a better one I would use it.
This was mainly responding to the point people make that banning chatter doesnt really effect the meta, rather just makes chatot worse

Once Chatter is gone you can use Air Cutter. 5 BP weaker, 95% accuracy, chance to crit. Better than nothing.
As i have outlined in my post, chatter doesnt gain much coverage, and air cutter is doing nothing at all considering it is weaker than heat wave including STAB
 
Honest question, if we ban chatter simply because it's uncompetive, shouldn't confuse ray be banned as well, since that is also a 100% confusion chance with larger distribution that also goes through soundproof? Is it just that chatter does damage+confusion?
 
chatter is almost as retarded as some of these counter-arguments.......

it is the single easiest way to get yourself out of a losing position and i cannot count the amount of times i have lost from a hefty advantage against an uncompetitive team (read: using shit like bellossom) simply because of hitting myself repeatedly due to chatot's chatter. no one ever uses chatter for a flying stab, they use it to try and get a free all-out in any situation and the few pokemon with soundproof would usually rather run something else, notwithstanding that the ability has very low distribution...
 

Deej Dy

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Honest question, if we ban chatter simply because it's uncompetive, shouldn't confuse ray be banned as well, since that is also a 100% confusion chance with larger distribution that also goes through soundproof? Is it just that chatter does damage+confusion?
I agree, how does confuse ray(+sub or T-Wave) differentiate itself? Chatter has a measly 65 bp, why are you trying to ban this move in particular? The one move that pretty much makes Chatot relevant?

Isn't Swords-Dance Jumpluff Sleep powder doing the same thing? Relying to Sleep Hax to sweep?
 
Magnemite all you really need are soft checks such as Rock Blast Golem, Lickylicky, Piloswine/ anything with priroty or above 91 speed. Please read my post in full before jumping to conclusions. You can also choose to run Bastiodon/mr mime/probopass or w/e if your team struggles with flying/normal coverage or you particularly hate chatot. When team-building you may be annoyed by Chatot, but do not use chatot's strategy as an excuse for losses instead building a better team, as tempting as it is.
Usually if you are so weak to flying/normal coverage you will die to Dodrio or other strong flying types (Offensive Articuno, etc) anyway, so they can go hand in hand, I find Chatot adjusts team-building minimally.

Also Dell I have yet to see a hidden power ground Chatot as it gives away one of its precious moves such as Sub, Nasty Plot, or Boomburst, making it much less effective. I feel this is being more of a Theorymonning project of what it could do, than the minimal threat it actually is on the ladder. Honestly, who runs hp ground Chatot ;p.

I have faced chatot on the ladder 5 or 6 times, it really wasn't too hard to deal with. I don't have a probopass, Mr. mime or any counter to it. I have a soft check in Pawniard/Golem/kadabra which fufill various other roles well.
Usually it comes down to playing them with sucker punch/outspeeding/ encoring the sub, general skills that you should be able to predict.

Nothing against you guys, I'm was just disturbed that Chatter was actually mentioned for a suspect test, which I find completely unreasonable in the PU metagame. (Banning in other metas make sense, but that is a different topic)
Pretty much everything that I want to say has been said by now, but I feel like I should respond to this post as it is directly in response to me.

I was going to go through all of your proposed checks and point out that most of them are quite shaky as checks, but honestly I think you're missing the point of the reason to ban Chatter in the first place. Chatter is something that can very easily turn the game completely around and give the player who would otherwise be unable to win a very real shot at winning. The point of suspecting Chatter is that it adds a ton of unnecessary luck to any match it's used in, thereby making PU a less fun and less skill-based tier in exchange for zero positive effect on the metagame. Honestly the question to ask here isn't "Why should we ban Chatter"; it's "Why shouldn't we ban Chatter". Pokemon already has enough luck involved in it already, why would you want to keep something that turns every game it's used in into a coinflip? Of course it's not impossible to beat Chatot, just like it wasn't impossible to beat Musharna or Tauros or Garbodor or Mega Altaria or anything else that's ever been banned from PU. However, in most cases it's basically a coinflip whether or not Chatot will be able to beat some or most of your team just by itself just because of confusion hax, which is not only horrendously uncompetitive, but is also arguably "broken" in the traditional sense as well.
 

ManOfMany

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While Chatter is certainly uncompetitive, I don't see a way to ban it without also banning confuse ray. There have been several times I lost a match due to Volbeat's prankster confuse ray, or some clown using confuse ray Lumineon. I ask, how is this any less uncompetitive?

If you are banning Chatter because it is broken + uncompetitive that is fine, but that is not the case. It is not like Machamp in FU where DynamicPunch actually made it broken
 

MZ

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I feel like the difference between chatter and confuse ray is that it gives a mon that can easily sweep a team it shouldn't a way to simultaneously do damage and prevent you from moving. Confuse Ray has a 50% chance to be shit, chatter still hits decently hard and allows a mon with sub, encore, and nasty plot to shit all over your team. Even if you have multiple soft checks, the fact that chatot can hax its way through what should be a solid check like Piloswine is the definition of uncompetitive.
 

scorpdestroyer

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I will be voting to not ban Chatter. I urge the council members to read and reconsider your stance.

Chatter is being quick suspected because it gives Chatot an easy chance to set up sub, NP etc. However more often than not it doesn't even work out that well. I've rarely ever considered Chatot for serious teams because of its inconsistency. Chatot simply doesn't have many chances to set up its hax. Base 90 Speed is mediocre when facing offensive teams and Chatot easily gets revenged killed as long as you don't hit yourself just once. Offensive teams generally also pack teammates that deal with Chatot pretty well, looking at Probopass and Piloswine here, which walls it for the former and snipes Chatot without a sub for the latter, or simply beats it with Icicle Spear if it just hits once. And no, HP Ground is not something I'll consider because I will argue that in using HP Ground, Chatter comes nowhere close to being potent as Chatot cannot set up NP for free.

The difference between Swagplay and chatter is that Swagplay enables entire teams to hax the shit out of the opponent. Even if you beat the first coin flip and KO the opponent, you still have 5 other mons to deal with and the odds are heavily stacked against you. With Chatter you only get one shot at sweeping. The odds are stacked against Chatot sweeping, especially in a meta where faster pokemon, priority, and even hard counters (mime, Probo) are extremely common.

Sure, there are some cases where chatter can completely turn a game around. However the odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of at least two pokemon breaking past confusion. Are we going to ban confusion, paralysis etc just because they have a chance to steal away the game? Nope, and we shouldn't be banning chatter because it is just inconsistent and by using it you're giving up the opportunity to use an even better pokemon.

Edit: before someone brings up that chatter is uncompetitive in a vacuum, I'd like to argue that this is not the case. If chatter were uncompetitive in a vacuum, then by that logic moves like confuse ray and thunder wave are also uncompetitive. The reason we're looking at Chatter only is because the only abuser of the move, Chatot, is able to take advantage of it in an effective manner with sub, NP and Boomburst (while confuse ray illumise is nowhere near that). So yes, I'd argue that Chatot is the thing we should be looking at and not chatter when we're discussing this suspect, and like I mentioned is not threatening enough to warrant a quickban.
 
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I will be voting to not ban Chatter. Before the council members shoot me in the face please read this post and reconsider your stance.

Chatter is being quick suspected because it gives Chatot an easy chance to set up sub, NP etc. However more often than not it doesn't even work out that well. I've rarely ever considered Chatot for serious teams because of its inconsistency. Chatot simply doesn't have many chances to set up its hax. Base 90 Speed is mediocre when facing offensive teams and Chatot easily gets revenged killed as long as you don't hit yourself just once. Offensive teams generally also pack teammates that deal with Chatot pretty well, looking at Probopass and Piloswine here, which walls it for the former and snipes Chatot without a sub for the latter, or simply beats it with Icicle Spear if it just hits once. And no, HP Ground is not something I'll consider because I will argue that in using HP Ground, Chatter comes nowhere close to being potent as Chatot cannot set up NP for free.

The difference between Swagplay and chatter is that Swagplay enables entire teams to hax the shit out of the opponent. Even if you beat the first coin flip and KO the opponent, you still have 5 other mons to deal with and the odds are heavily stacked against you. With Chatter you only get one shot at sweeping. The odds are stacked against Chatot sweeping, especially in a meta where faster pokemon, priority, and even hard counters (mime, Probo) are extremely common.

Sure, there are some cases where chatter can completely turn a game around. However the odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of at least two pokemon breaking past confusion. Are we going to ban freeze, paralysis etc just because they have a chance to steal away the game? Nope, and we shouldn't be banning chatter because it is just inconsistent and by using it you're giving up the opportunity to use an even better pokemon.
Like with the other anti-ban posts, all this post is telling me is that it's possible to beat Chatot. Yes, Chatot doesn't always set up, but it does more often than you're leading on, as it can hax its way to set up against all but 19 relevant unboosted mons (the amount of common Pokemon faster than Chatot, many of which don't fit well on the same team), and then if it gets up a sub, it can hax its way past what tries to revenge kill it or just do a ton to it with Boomburst by taking advantage of a sub it never should have had in the first place. Against balance teams, Chatot gets tons of setup opportunities, and its only answer on these teams in Probopass is easily worn down and can be trapped (not to mention that it can still be broken through with enough confusion hax).

Basically, my point is that not all teams are weak to Chatot, but enough are that it's just incredibly stupid when you have to face it. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, as you have to prepare for everything to at least some extent, but in this case these teams are only weak to Chatot because of Chatter hax, and wouldn't be weak to it much at all if it didn't have the ability to hax its way past would-be checks. My other main argument for banning Chatter is that there's just no reason to keep something with this much potential for hax around. Literally the only thing that changes without Chatter is that Chatot can't hax its way past anything anymore, since as Anty pointed out, Heat Wave does basically the exact thing for Chatot as a different 65 BP STAB move that couldn't confuse would do.
 

Deej Dy

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Like with the other anti-ban posts, all this post is telling me is that it's possible to beat Chatot. Yes, Chatot doesn't always set up, but it does more often than you're leading on, as it can hax its way to set up against all but 19 relevant unboosted mons (the amount of common Pokemon faster than Chatot, many of which don't fit well on the same team), and then if it gets up a sub, it can hax its way past what tries to revenge kill it or just do a ton to it with Boomburst by taking advantage of a sub it never should have had in the first place. Against balance teams, Chatot gets tons of setup opportunities, and its only answer on these teams in Probopass is easily worn down and can be trapped (not to mention that it can still be broken through with enough confusion hax).

Basically, my point is that not all teams are weak to Chatot, but enough are that it's just incredibly stupid when you have to face it. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, as you have to prepare for everything to at least some extent, but in this case these teams are only weak to Chatot because of Chatter hax, and wouldn't be weak to it much at all if it didn't have the ability to hax its way past would-be checks. My other main argument for banning Chatter is that there's just no reason to keep something with this much potential for hax around. Literally the only thing that changes without Chatter is that Chatot can't hax its way past anything anymore, since as Anty pointed out, Heat Wave does basically the exact thing for Chatot as a different 65 BP STAB move that couldn't confuse would do.
I don't disagree with all of your points and I understand where you are coming from, as it is unpleasant playing chatot, however you are consistently using the "worst possible scenario" argument. lets get it straight that 50% Chatot fails and dies ON THE FIRST TURN. These phenomena you are describing are exaggerated the very worst degree. How often does Chatot completely sweep teams? I've done it one in a funny NU replay, but that was after 2 years of Gameplay and intermittent Chatot usage.

Yes its annoying, yes I hate it too, but it shouldn't be banned on those premises, and I find it as competitive as Sleep powder, Confuse Ray, and Thunderwave.
I've noticed your status says
"if you use thunder wave you're bad and i hate you"- which implies you are not fond of any pokemon hax. Unfortunately, and fortunately, hax is apart of the game, which keeps it interesting, fun, and unpredictable, while at the same time extremely frustrating, especially when I have random battle meltdowns from Serene grace Shaymin air slash.

TLDR: Hax is a part of the game and it is competitive, chatter is no different. I find chatter akin to Iron head Jirachi, or Sleep powder Jumpluff.


EDIT: Sorry my Text changed size for some reason '-'.
 
I don't disagree with all of your points and I understand where you are coming from, as it is unpleasant playing chatot, however you are consistently using the "worst possible scenario" argument. lets get it straight that 50% Chatot fails and dies ON THE FIRST TURN. These phenomena you are describing are exaggerated the very worst degree. How often does Chatot completely sweep teams? I've done it one in a funny NU replay, but that was after 2 years of Gameplay and intermittent Chatot usage.

Yes its annoying, yes I hate it too, but it shouldn't be banned on those premises, and I find it as competitive as Sleep powder, Confuse Ray, and Thunderwave.
I've noticed your status says
"if you use thunder wave you're bad and i hate you"- which implies you are not fond of any pokemon hax. Unfortunately, and fortunately, hax is apart of the game, which keeps it interesting, fun, and unpredictable, while at the same time extremely frustrating, especially when I have random battle meltdowns from Serene grace Shaymin air slash.

TLDR: Hax is a part of the game and it is competitive, chatter is no different. I find chatter akin to Iron head Jirachi, or Sleep powder Jumpluff.

EDIT: Sorry my Text changed size for some reason '-'.
Only if you try to set up on something that can OHKO you, which is kind of a ridiculous assumption to make considering the fact that while Chatot is frail, it's not overly difficult to simply force something out and confuse it on the switch, then just spam sub until they inevitably hit themselves.

What I'm getting from the second part of your post is that you want games to have less competitive value and be more based on luck, and if that's the case there's nothing I can possibly do to change your mind, but why would you want the game to be less fun for those of us who don't like losing to things beyond our control? The existence of other hax isn't a reason to not ban Chatter either, it didn't apply to the Swagger ban and it doesn't apply here. (also my ct is mostly a joke and has nothing to do with whether or not Chatter is banworthy lol)
 
Sleep Powder, Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave, Serene Grace Air Slash, etc. are not comparable to Chatter. Confusion isn't being suspected. Hax isn't being suspected. What's being suspected is a 65 Base Power attack that also causes confusion 100% of the time. It's not even about the damage dealt from confusion that makes it broken; it's about giving free turns to a Pokemon with Substitute, Nasty Plot, and a 140 Base Power STAB move which also has no downsides. Nasty Plot Chatot wouldn't even be viable without Chatter because it sets up on literally nothing when it isn't getting completely free turns off of Chatter.

Even if you have a hard counter to Chatot, if you switch to it as the opponent uses Chatter, there's still a 50% chance that they get a free switch as you hit yourself in confusion. The only exceptions I can think of are Soundproof Mr. Mime and Bouffalant, which I'd literally use on every team if I played PU more frequently because literally fuck this aids Pokemon.
 

2xTheTap

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Ban or no ban on chatter - I'm pretty indifferent at this point. To put it bluntly, this suspect seems like a knee jerk reaction to having lost to some hax on the ladder.

On one hand, Chatter is generally uncompetitive, and something that uses a 100% confusion rate coupled with 65 BP in order to setup shouldn't be able to do that on the ladder, but Chatot itself is already so weak that it isn't high ladder material anyway. In fact, it's possible to make the argument to lower its ranking of A- in the viability ranking thread.

It can barely take advantage of its access to Chatter because, as many have said before, numerous checks and counters like Piloswine, Probopass, Sdef Misdreavus, Scarf Mime, Aurorus, etc. are actually high ladder in this current metagame. Additionally, its bulk and disappointing speed stat undermine its ability to use Chatter well. In my experience, I've never actually planned a team around countering Chatot (unlike the way I've done with many other potent threats in PU, like Sneasel), and it still doesn't bother me.

Chatot's Chatter is simply not threatening enough to warrant a ban. Not only that, but the meta has also already adapted to Chatot, and so I'm not sure why a conversation about Chatter hasn't been opened up publicly before. However, if Chatter were banned, I wouldn't miss it.

That being said, there was one point that I found to be blatantly incorrect: Chatot does not run HP Ground, unless it's a Choiced Set or NP/Sub/Encore and 3 attacks set, which are both vastly inferior to its standard set of Substitute / Nasty Plot / Boomburst / Chatter. Theoretically, HP Ground could pave the way for a sweep with Chatter and Boomburst, but this is theorymonning and Chatot simply does not have room for HP Ground. So, mentioning HP Ground as a way to play up Chatot's strengths in order to make Chatter (and therefore, Chatot) sound more usable in higher levels of play in PU was questionable logic at best.
 

WhiteDMist

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Yeah, let's not call anyone or their opinions "retarded", "ridiculous", or anything along those lines just because they don't agree with you. Each side has valid points. The reason that Chatter is being suspected now rather than in November or so when it was first brought up is because the meta is not so dominated by any singular playstyle or Pokemon so we are able to focus on all the possible suspects remaining. Chatter was going to be suspected regardless. Because Chatter is a bit of a unique issue, we didn't want to slap it on alongside another suspect(s). Enough about why we are quicksuspecting Chatter, focus on the issue at hand here: is Chatter uncompetitive, and is that uncompetitiveness sufficient enough to ban it from PU?

Question for the pro-ban people: It can't be denied that Chatot and Chatter haven't exactly made waves in the metagame, and random luck will always be a part of the game. What makes Chatter uncompetitive enough to ban it?

Question for the anti-ban people: Chatter actively forces a 50/50 situation that isn't stopped by Taunt or Substitute, giving a normally frail Pokemon a 50% chance to do what it wants the next turn. Why keep it around?
 

MZ

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I'm undecided on chatot. Chatter is obviously uncompetitive as fuck, but it's also on a relatively mediocre Pokemon. However, its ability to just win games is totally understated. I remember one game against gasquakee a while back. He brought a stall team, I brought this stupid team with a chatot and was getting wrecked. Then I went to chatot and won. I didn't have to try or be good, I just chatterhaxed my way through his team, and getting a sub up for anything faster isn't too hard with luck. Obviously this isn't likely, but it's certainly possible to beat any team without soundproof or probo (unless you're really lucky) with a sub/encore chatot.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Question for the pro-ban people: It can't be denied that Chatot and Chatter haven't exactly made waves in the metagame, and random luck will always be a part of the game. What makes Chatter uncompetitive enough to ban it?

Question for the anti-ban people: Chatter actively forces a 50/50 situation that isn't stopped by Taunt or Substitute, giving a normally frail Pokemon a 50% chance to do what it wants the next turn. Why keep it around?
I don't think it's as much a question of "why keep it around" as much as it is "why ban it" when we do suspects. I'm arguing for it to be kept because I don't believe Chatter is too difficult to beat, which I've explained in an earlier post.

I acknowledge the pro-ban arguments, but I'd like to ask, what makes Chatter on Chatot so much better than other confusion + setup moves on other mons? This is a legitimate question btw and I do not intend on opening any cans of worms. Basically for example, what makes Chatter + Nasty Plot so much more banworthy than Confuse Ray on mons such as NP Mr Mime, Tail Glow Pass Volbeat, and NP Ninetales?
 

MZ

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I don't think it's as much a question of "why keep it around" as much as it is "why ban it" when we do suspects. I'm arguing for it to be kept because I don't believe Chatter is too difficult to beat, which I've explained in an earlier post.

I acknowledge the pro-ban arguments, but I'd like to ask, what makes Chatter on Chatot so much better than other confusion + setup moves on other mons? This is a legitimate question btw and I do not intend on opening any cans of worms. Basically for example, what makes Chatter + Nasty Plot so much more banworthy than Confuse Ray on mons such as NP Mr Mime, Tail Glow Pass Volbeat, and NP Ninetales?
Confuse Ray has a chance to be useless. Chatter is freely clicking decently strong STAB with a chance to hax
 
I'm still not buying the "how is it much different from Confuse Ray" argument, for two main reasons.

The first is that Confuse Ray isn't being suspected, Chatter is. Were it up for suspect alongside Chatter, I actually probably would vote to ban Confuse Ray, especially since there's precedent in that Swagger is banned, and Confuse Ray is just a less effective version of Swagger that most of the arguments for banning Swagger also apply to. To me, this argument is like saying "Tauros shouldn't have been banned, it's not more broken than other mon x" The existence of other uncompetitive moves doesn't make an uncompetitive move less banworthy, especially when my second point also applies.

The second is that unlike Confuse Ray, Chatter actually sees occasional usage in mid to upper level play. I myself have used Chatot a few times, and I know other council members have too. Sure, you can always use Heat Wave over Chatter, but that's just making your Chatot less effective unnecessarily. When I use Chatot, I'm not using it because I want to win because of hax, I'm using it because I want a special Normal-type sweeper with only two easily trappable counters, and when I use Chatot, I use Chatter because there's no reason to use Heat Wave, a move of similar power that hits basically the same things without the ability to hax its way past its checks. This doesn't apply to Confuse Ray because where Chatter is the same as another option with an additional hax factor involved, Confuse Ray takes up a moveslot and isn't nearly as useful most of the time as the move you're giving up to use it. There is no risk involved in running Chatter over Heat Wave, while there is risk involved in running, say, Confuse Ray over Energy Ball on Ninetales, so the two moves aren't really comparable.
 
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Dell

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I agree, how does confuse ray(+sub or T-Wave) differentiate itself? Chatter has a measly 65 bp, why are you trying to ban this move in particular? The one move that pretty much makes Chatot relevant?
I've already addressed Thunder Wave in my previous post, so I'm unsure why this is still being brought up. As for parafusion itself, on paper, you guys are right that the argument for banning Chatter can be applied to this as well, but on practice, there's more to handling parafusion than just bringing hard counters to it (this also applies to your argument about sleep as well, but I digress). You're failing to take into account that you have to use turns to confuse and paralyze the opponent—turns that could be spent doing something to help bring you closer to your win condition. Chatter on the other hand has significantly less opportunity cost involved and is much more self-sufficient, since while you're primarily focusing on confusing stuff with that too, you're actively inflicting damage on the opponent as well.

A few have pointed this out already, but yes there's also the fact that unlike Confuse Ray, Chatter creates viable sets that are problematic to the point where it creates a counterproductive effect in our desire to achieve a competitive metagame.

At any rate, I understand why some here may think Chatter shouldn't be banned. However, I think it's been covered well at this point that this suspect is more about addressing the fact that Chatot with Chatter alone removes skill in the equation in the majority of competitive matches (similarly to Swagger, but to a lesser extent), which makes it a negative part of the metagame. This, in my opinion, makes for a good case of something that is not only clearly uncompetitive, but arguably broken too. While you guys can argue that saying it's "broken" is objectionable, the point is we don't necessarily need to prove its "brokenness" in order to fulfill our decision requirements in banning it.
 
I'm undecided on chatot. Chatter is obviously uncompetitive as fuck, but it's also on a relatively mediocre Pokemon. However, its ability to just win games is totally understated. I remember one game against gasquakee a while back. He brought a stall team, I brought this stupid team with a chatot and was getting wrecked. Then I went to chatot and won. I didn't have to try or be good, I just chatterhaxed my way through his team, and getting a sub up for anything faster isn't too hard with luck. Obviously this isn't likely, but it's certainly possible to beat any team without soundproof or probo (unless you're really lucky) with a sub/encore chatot.
I want to mention stall has little to nothing to outspeed chatot so its easier to break stall with chatot and a bit of luck. Still shows how potent chatot can be though.
 

WhiteDMist

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Chatter has been banned by the PU Council!

The reasonings will be posted in the suspect votes result thread, so be on the lookout for that. I think that it's only fair that I post my own reasoning here though as while I leaned towards ban, I was open to not banning it with good logical reasoning (actually, I was disappointed that there wasn't more logical reasons brought up against a ban, just a lot of "hax is a part of the game" and "why not ban other moves that can hax?").

This vote is based on how uncompetitive Chatter is, not about Chatot's strength. Unlike other confusion-inducing moves, Chatter eludes normal ways to play around it. The confusion effect is not RNG related, it is guaranteed outside of niche abilities or items. It may not be the most powerful STAB move, but it lacks immunities outside of Soundproof Pokemon; this means that even the standard method of switching out to remove confusion poses a risk as Chatter will continue to wear the opponent's team down. Bypassing Substitute and Taunt is just a side effect, but still a significant advantage. While a STAB move is never a bad thing, Chatter isn't significantly stronger than Heat Wave, which provides better coverage (ie- Steels) while still hitting almost all the Pokemon that Chatter hits (ie- Grasses and Ghosts). One only uses Chatter to forcibly introduce luck into a battle, and players forcing luck into battles is something we try to avoid to maintain a metagame where skill is the key overall factor in deciding battles. It doesn't matter how often the luck rolls in the favor of the Chatter user or if it allows Chatot to sweep, as this is about actively and knowingly introducing the luck factor into a battle in the first place. After all, if Heat Wave and Chatter are about the same damage-wise, why not choose the move that can give you a 50/50 chance of a free turn just for using it? It has no drawbacks at all, unlike moves such as Swagger and Confuse Ray, which inflicts no damage and doesn't punish the opponent for switching out to remove the status.

From personal experience, I don't find Chatter mattering too much in any battles I face against/use it (I was usually lucky during those few battles). In fact, I rarely face Chatot at all, let alone win/lose only because of Chatter. Teambuilding can help mitigate Chatter's overall effect, especially if you carry a Soundproof or even Own Tempo Pokemon. The issue is the fact that there is a chance at all for a mediocre Pokemon to defeat you because you are unlucky or lack one of the few anti-confusion/Chatter Pokemon. Actually, the fact that there is a chance for Chatot to defeat most Pokemon 1-on-1 by itself through the luck factor Chatter brings is just inexcusable. While I hate the idea of banning moves, I cannot in good conscience vote anything but BAN.


Now, no more talk about Chatter for now. If people can think of a logical reason why we should take another look at it after the next couple of rounds of suspect tests, it can be discussed. But until then, the matter has been voted on. We won't hesitate to delete any posts that are not about the current metagame (which Chatter is no longer a part of).

I'll make a post about our next suspect test later, but feel free to discuss what you would like to see suspected.

EDIT: I lied. galbia is going to post :)
 
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