Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

[termi]

I remember reading a post somewhere about Throh possibly being banned, is that still possibly happening? I'd rather it not

It'll most likely up for suspect soon, the council is still deciding what mons deserve a suspect test and in what order we might suspect stuff, but the general consensus is that throh deserves a suspect test.

 

[g]

approved by Dell and WhiteDMist

OFFICIAL SUSPECT TEST

After some discussion on the state of the PU metagame after the latest suspect test and council vote me and the council member we tried to discuss what would be the course of action we would take in order to make the tier better (more fun both to play and build for) by identifying what would the next suspect tests be. After some discussion we came to the conclusion that the next suspect slate will regard Throh and Sneasel.

Throh is one of the single best Pokemon in the tier thanks to its great typing both offensively and defensively being pretty much unresisted in combination with the heavily crippling Knock Off that is able to deal with most of its would be switch ins and has a great ability in Guts to deal with Status. It is very versatile and able to run a lot of moves that let it be effectiv ein different situations such as Taunt, Toxic, Circle Throw, and Rest+Sleep Talk but held back by not overwhelming power when unboosted, lack of reliable recovery, and a bad Speed stat.

Sneasel is the face of offense in the PU tier. It has an extremely high base 115 Speed stat that lets it outspeed the whole unboosted PU metagame outside of Zebstrika, Electrode, and Choice Scarf users and has a very nice STAB combination and a very good movepool including Knock Off, Icicle Crash, Low Kick, Ice Shard, and a great boosting move in Swords Dance as well as multiple niche options such as Taunt and Aerial Ace. It might not appear as an unstoppable threat but is incredibly limiting in teambuilding pretty much requiring Poliwrath or Throh if you want to switch into it more than once. It is held back by its unability to OHKO offensive Pokemon because of a modest Attack stat and its extreme frailty without Eviolite.


This suspect test will last 10 days. During this suspect test, we will be looking at those who contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. This includes any of: PU sub-forum, PU Room, and #pu (which is a great place to discuss with council members). The more you contribute, the more likely you are to get noticed, and this applies to those on EITHER SIDE of the suspect. Don't forget to test these suspects, and ladder often in these next few days! Anyone that is asked to join the Rotating Council this round will need to provide a screenshot of one of their alts (with a date and time) with a GXE score of at least 75 and Glicko-1 of 1750 ± 80 or better: so be prepared!

Please remain on topic guys and good luck! :]

 

[HJAD]

OK Let's start with Throh. I have personally used this Mon, I have never felt in any way shape or form that I am being handicapped in anyway. There is almost 0 oppurtuinity cost in using it as it can edit its move set to be used on almost any team. If your team is weak to balance/stall you can run a taunt + toxic set or if you are weak to certain mons (which Throh may happen to wall) you can run a restalk phezer set. Its typing allows it to be the MAIN switch in for PU's bane, knock off. With so many NFEs running around the tier not only does Throh have access to it, but it manages to switch in successfully to pretty much every Mon that commonly carries knock off in the tier, which is part of what makes it so great.
In my opinion, due to the 0 oppurtuinity cost it has, the number of tier threats it can wall, and the successful number of sets it can perform to fit any play style, I'm leaning towards a ban but I'm on the fence.
I'm not sure if it might be too slow at times and its recovery is restalk which isn't really reliable enough.
I can be easily swayed however


Onto Sneasel, this Mon is ridiculously fun to use. It has brilliant dark + ice stab neutral coverage as well as very strong priority in ice shard which gives it the ability to sweep through offense should it be needed. It can pick and choose between 2 main items, life orb and eviolite. The first gives it fantastic power and much better capabilities to sweep, and the other allows many more setup oppurtuinities to get to +2 easier or to take priority mid sweep easier. It also has low kick which can be used to lure given mons (I'm looking at you Pawniard). It also has really nice utility in pursuit, if you need damage on opposing psychic type mons. Sneasel however, is checked by a few mons, the main ones that spring to mind is Poliwrath and Throh, with Pawniard being a softer checker, since you have to scout for low kick. It also runs one set, swords dance 3 attacks, which can vary adimmetdly but the 3 attacks have got very small pool of moves to choose from. Sneasel is also relatively frail so some strong priority + hazards can wear it down to the point where its of no use for the user.
Overall, when I have used it, it does need support. It needs switch ins for its afformentioned counters and also needs some type of hazard control in order to make sure mid sweep its out of the range of all the opponents priority. As a result, if never really thought it was "broken" as such but I do feel that the amount of switch ins for it is very minimal, and as a result I feel like in a sense its got downfalls, but it does such a good job of cleaning late game when everything is weakened thanks to its power and speed tier, it really is worth the suspect.
Leaning towards No Ban on this due to its hazards weakness and the fact that counters exist but as I said before, I can be swayed. :]

 

[Raiza]

I have to say I didn't really abuse Throh in any of my teams until now since I just preferred Poliwrath most of the times, but I just regret it now that I discovered the potential of this beast man...LOL. Throh is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can fit in probably every team, from Offense to Balanced and Stalls thanks to its great typing, bulk and atk base stats which make everyone consider it when building a team, as a teammate or a pokemon to be covered from since it's really popular at the moment and can run various set since even Offensive ones such as the Choice Banded, which I built a team on and it made wonders (shoutout to scorpdestroyer for making me discover that set destroying me with it), because its stil able to tank a few hits and can answer really hard also having a decent coverage to hit common physical walls such as Pelipper or phaze them with Circle Throw or makes it to run even passive sets such as the Toxic Taunt to cripple walls or Rest Talk ones to tear balance apart, where I think it performs better in general, and Knock Off makes it have no switch-ins most of the time really. Throh also has another good point if you look at its main and most used ability, Guts, a blessing that is put in work really well with Rest Talk to gain an Atk Boost and Attack while it heals itself but on other sets too since it makes Throh have an higher fire power when it is Statused, which is one of the few ways it can be handled.
Lacking a recovery out of Rest and Lefties though is a drawback, but I still think they are enough thanks to its high bulk and since Rest as I already said synergyses good with the pokemon in general, also making a bit up for the ''not overwhelming power'', ah forgot to say its typing and bulk makes it decent with a wish user so yeah that is an option too. ban

will talk later about sneasel since its connected in a certain way to throh too

 

[BadPandaPancham]

I have never really had a problem with Throh in battle. That being said, reasons why is because I always make sure I include checks to Throh, Poli, and Sneasel to give me the least trouble. Throh and Sneasel limit the potential of teambuilding right now with how the meta is treating them. They have extreme versatility.
For Throh, as much as I haven't had too much trouble with him, I recognize that he has almost everything a Pokemon in PU wants (minus speed). He has the rare and all-powerful Fighting type, which helps him offensively and defensively, with Knock Off to back it up and hit anything his Fighting type attacks can't, as well as cripple any potential checks wanting to switch in at this point. While it doesn't have "reliable" recovery, it does in fact have Sleep Rest Talk, which is extremely annoying considering it can take 2 hits (at least) from pretty much everything in the tier, so this just increases it's longevity and annoyance. It also can be placed on Hazard Stack teams to damage everything with a combination of Circle Throw and hazard damage, crippling each member of the enemy team. It's too versatile and too bulky, it pretty always does something in the battle that it is in, especially because Burning it isn't a solution. So I am currently on ban for Throh. Keep in mind I am not set on this decision, as I have said I never have had a real problem with it the umpteen times I've seen it in battle. However, this does not mean that I do not recognize it as an extremely threatening mon in the tier.

Now here is Sneasel, who I felt shouldn't have ever dropped from S-rank, because it stayed as threatening and potent as ever. It's time for this mon to go. There is very, very little risk that comes from using Sneasel. Once you remove or weaken Poli (as long as it's not Vacuum Wave Poli) you win after an SD. That's how it goes too often. While Sneasel's movepool looks a bit small, it has access to great typing STAB (including priority), Knock Off, Swords Dance, Aerial Ace, Low Kick, and to counter some stall/walls/checks to Sneasel, Taunt. Heck, it could even run Natural Gift Lansat Berry (creds to Anty) and OHKO both Poli and Throh at +2. What a counter. It's seriously too strong, it's hard to punish a Sneasel, it's always a top priority target. Can we also just take a moment to dedicate a sentence to the fact that it has access to STAB Knock Off. Yes, the most annoying move ever, Knock Off. Big damage with a crippling effect. No drawbacks. Also, what the heck. An enormous 115 base speed stat, a respectable 95 base attack (coupled with Swords Dance...), and to add on to all of that it is a pre-evolution, so it can gain decent bulk with Eviolite (to further your ability to SD), if Life Orb doesn't suit your fancy on dealing immediate damage. Sure it's typing isn't the greatest, plus hazards can really take a toll on it, but it remains a constant threat you have to play around to make sure your opponent can't catch you off guard and get a free SD. While not as bulky as Throh, the Speed, Attack, and two great offensive STABs...with a God-tier speed...it's just not healthy. Ban for Sneasel as well.

 

[Dundies]

First, I'll start with Throh. Looking at Throh's stats, it is a great pokemon that can fit on a lot of teams. But, I dont think its ban worthy. Throh only has one form of recovery in rest, and even alongside Sleep Talk, i've always felt that Throh becomes too passive in this sense and is easily set up on by pokemon such as Leafeon (just an example). Even though it has access to circle throw, it becomes easy set-up fodder to substitute set-up mons. Throh is easily checked by most relevant flying types in the tier, whether it be offensive or defensive in pokemon such as Pelipper or Dodrio. i feel as though Throh is an easy prospect for S-rank, but isnt ban worthy. So i vote no ban for Throh.

Now for Sneasel. With Sneasel's base 115 speed, base 95 attack, and access to extremely powerful STABs in Knock Off, Icicle Crash, and Ice Shard, Sneasel has so much potential to tear through offensive teams as well as wear down defensive teams. Sneasel's few checks in pokemon like Throh and Poliwrath don't enjoy losing their item's to knock off and LANSAT BERRY NATURAL GIFT DESTROYS THEM they can be weakened for other pokemon to sweep or for Sneasel to come in late game and set up a swords dance to sweep itself. With rocks up, swords dance sneasel is able to break through the most common defensive Pokemon in the tier such as Lickilicky and Avalugg with coverage from Low Kick. While eviolite along with Swords Dance can be used to allow an easier set up to beat bulkier teams, Life Orb four attacks can just as easily tear through offensive teams with the speed tier it's in. Because of Sneasel's versatility and it's ability to beat the most common playstyles, i vote ban for Sneasel.

 

[Magnemite]

First, I'll start with Throh. Looking at Throh's stats, it is a great pokemon that can fit on a lot of teams. But, I dont think its ban worthy. Throh only has one form of recovery in rest, and even alongside Sleep Talk, i've always felt that Throh becomes too passive in this sense and is easily set up on by pokemon such as Leafeon (just an example). Even though it has access to circle throw, it becomes easy set-up fodder to substitute set-up mons. Throh is easily checked by most relevant flying types in the tier, whether it be offensive or defensive in pokemon such as Pelipper or Dodrio. i feel as though Throh is an easy prospect for S-rank, but isnt ban worthy. So i vote no ban for Throh.

Now for Sneasel. With Sneasel's base 115 speed, base 95 attack, and access to extremely powerful STABs in Knock Off, Icicle Crash, and Ice Shard, Sneasel has so much potential to tear through offensive teams as well as wear down defensive teams. Sneasel's few checks in pokemon like Throh and Poliwrath don't enjoy losing their item's to knock off and LANSAT BERRY NATURAL GIFT DESTROYS THEM they can be weakened for other pokemon to sweep or for Sneasel to come in late game and set up a swords dance to sweep itself. With rocks up, swords dance sneasel is able to break through the most common defensive Pokemon in the tier such as Lickilicky and Avalugg with coverage from Low Kick. While eviolite along with Swords Dance can be used to allow an easier set up to beat bulkier teams, Life Orb four attacks can just as easily tear through offensive teams with the speed tier it's in. Because of Sneasel's versatility and it's ability to beat the most common playstyles, i vote ban for Sneasel.

How is Throh passive at all? It has really good coverage, and hits pretty hard in general. It's not really setup fodder for much of anything, especially not Leafeon: 252+ Atk Throh Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon on a critical hit: 108-127 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pelipper can't really do much to it unless it runs the mediocre Air Slash, as all it does is lose its lefties and give Throh a Guts boost, all while not being able to beat Resttalk variants at all. In general, basically nothing that can switch into Throh actually beats it one-on-one, and nothing that beats it one-on-one can actually switch into it, not to mention the fact that it can get a Rest off against half the tier. The few Pokemon that actually can switch into it are usually bulky grasses like Roselia and Tangela, which detest Knock Off. Also, when saying it's passive, you can't forget about the Toxic set.

I'm definitely going to write a longer post on Throh later, but I wanted to reply to this since I don't really agree with it.

 

[AM]

I don't play too much PU but when I have always wondered how Sneasel maintained itself in the tier for such a long time due to its team-building constraint. When I asked Tone about why it's supposably this ok thing in the meta he replied to me that Poliwrath and Throh helped alleviate the issue. I think if the team-building constraint is such a detriment that there are so few answers in the tier to it then that constitutes to an unhealthy presence in the meta-game. For the most part a lot of offensive suspects contribute to the same issues that warrant their suspect status in that it limits the amount of counter-play they have and because of this provide very little opportunity cost in the grand scheme of things. I also don't believe that being SR weak is exactly a fair assessment that would hold Sneasel back in not being banned when Hazard removal is available and the pressure it applies as an offensive Pokemon is still very relevant and very powerful despite this problem that can be compensated for by a basic necessity on many teams regardless of tier. I don't invest myself into this tier but looking from the outside in I just thought I would provide my thought process at least from a discussion position.

 

[Dundies]

How is Throh passive at all? It has really good coverage, and hits pretty hard in general. It's not really setup fodder for much of anything, especially not Leafeon: 252+ Atk Throh Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon on a critical hit: 108-127 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pelipper can't really do much to it unless it runs the mediocre Air Slash, as all it does is lose its lefties and give Throh a Guts boost, all while not being able to beat Resttalk variants at all. In general, basically nothing that can switch into Throh actually beats it one-on-one, and nothing that beats it one-on-one can actually switch into it, not to mention the fact that it can get a Rest off against half the tier. The few Pokemon that actually can switch into it are usually bulky grasses like Roselia and Tangela, which detest Knock Off. Also, when saying it's passive, you can't forget about the Toxic set.

I'm definitely going to write a longer post on Throh later, but I wanted to reply to this since I don't really agree with it.

it is beaten one-on-one by leafeon, though. i probably shouldve given a better example such as nastypass togetic

Edit: Also, i dont see why you Pelipper wouldnt run air slash. It allows it to beat a lot of pokemon like subSD leafeon and you arent walled by sub Poliwrath. just a thought.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

This is why y'all should run offensive pivot Pelipper smh

I'm currently on the fence about Throh. It's really difficult to switch into, but Throh's speed is poor and non rest-talk sets get worn down over having to switch into and take a hit from a lot of offensive pokemon. Offensive teams often also can fit in decently reliable switch ins such as Jumpluff, Pelipper, Torterra, NastyPass Togetic, and Arbok, and if these don't fit a few mons can also predict around Throh or smack it and wear it down when it comes in. Defensive teams might have a harder time against it but they can still fit in mons like Clefairy and air slash Pelipper to wear it down. Throh is definitely a troublesome mon but it's not that hard to wear down and does have a few reliable switch-ins. I'm on the fence rn though

As for Sneasel I've made my thoughts in another post but here's a summary for the lazy: you need a hard counter to avoid getting swept and there are only a select few which are all slow. and this makes teambuilding restrictive (I already have a water but I need a Sneasel counter thus I must use Throh, etc)

 

[Raiza]

Going into Sneasel now, differently from Throh I started playing PU with this guy thanks to Magnemite sample team and I have to say it didn't let me down a single time, performing always great and finding space to tear the enemy team apart. Sneasel is one of the strongest point in Offense teams thanks to its high 115 base Speed, which makes it outspeed almost every pokemon in the tier and good base 95 Atk to not laugh against since it's really good for a pokemon that fast and still allows Sneasel to rip through Offense and not hard dedicated counters. I want to remember it also has access to a boosting move in Swords Dance and Knock Off, which limits its counters & checks a lot, since no one can really switch-in safely on it similiarly to Throh and Icicle Crash that allows it sometimes to pass through Physical Walls with a lucky flinch, that isn't really a point in banning it but I thought it could be decent mentioning it. That's why the metagame is so focused on these Bulky Fighting pokemon such as Throh and Poliwrath, because every team has to run an hard counter or check to deal with Sneasel, that becomes a pokemon which even if it's not straightforward broken, restricts teambuilding a lot thanks to its cleaning and ability to shred Offense being also a great Pursuit-trapper, also creating scenarios when who wins the speed tie between two sneasel wins the whole game. Glaring weaknesses are its mediocre bulk and lack of a good ability but also considering a situation where Throh gets banned, I can't really see Sneasel remaining in the tier due to the fact nearly every team would become Poliwrath dependant, making the tier worse. ban doe

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Going into Sneasel now, differently from Throh I started playing PU with this guy thanks to Magnemite sample team and I have to say it didn't let me down a single time, performing always great and finding space to tear the enemy team apart. Sneasel is one of the strongest point in Offense teams thanks to its high 115 base Speed, which makes it outspeed almost every pokemon in the tier and good base 95 Atk to not laugh against since it's really good for a pokemon that fast and still allows Sneasel to rip through Offense and not hard dedicated counters. I want to remember it also has access to a boosting move in Swords Dance and Knock Off, which limits its counters & checks a lot, since no one can really switch-in safely on it similiarly to Throh and Icicle Crash that allows it sometimes to pass through Physical Walls with a lucky flinch. That's why the metagame is so focused on these Bulky Fighting pokemon such as Throh and Poliwrath, because every team has to run an hard counter or check to deal with Sneasel, that becomes a pokemon which even if it's not straightforward broken, restricts teambuilding a lot thanks to its cleaning and ability to shred Offense being also a great Pursuit-trapper, also creating scenarios when who wins the speed tie between two sneasel wins the whole game. Glaring weaknesses are its mediocre bulk and lack of a good ability but also considering a situation where Throh gets banned, I can't really see Sneasel remaining in the tier due to the fact nearly every team would become Poliwrath dependant, making the tier worse. ban doe

While I understand the points you are making are certainly true, I just want to point out that you shouldn't bring "hax", or luck, into the point you are trying to make because it has no merit in pointing out why you should ban/not ban a Pokemon. Icicle Crash flinching something shouldn't have a mention next time. I agree with your post I am just saying for next time, because there are a variety of 'hax' that could make you win vs. Sneasel as well.
I'd also like to highlight what you said about Sneasel ripping through offense. This is very true, and should be a big point in considering Sneasel's ban, as the metagame is much more in favor of offense rather than stall. Sneasel's already decent attack with incredible speed coupled with Swords Dance make it a huge problem and unhealthy for the current metagame, as you have to keep in mind Sneasel, Throh, and Poli when teambuilding, limiting the options you have for your team immensely and causing a huge re-use of certain mons which certainly doesn't make the metagame any healthier. It's way too good for where PU is at right now. It's too flexible to keep in the tier.

 

[Raiza]

That wasn't a point in banning it js I just wanted to state it since I see Sneasels win a 1v1 against a check with a Icicle Crash flinch all day long, so I thought it would be at least worth a mention in the post since I was explaining Sneasel's positive aspects in its coverage.
I made it clear in the post though

 

[Grim]

Everything has already been said but might as well make a post anyway.

For an offensive Pokemon Throh has incredible bulk which together with its mono Fighting-type allows it to take on a lot of threats in PU, most notably Sneasel. It is a very versatile Pokemon with all kinds of possible sets and moves, the most popular one being offensive RestTalk, but Taunt + Toxic and Choice Band are both very cool sets as well that I have used with great success. However, a lack of reliable recovery makes Throh somewhat easy to wear down, especially if it keeps switching into attacks such as Sneasel's Icicle Crash and Raichu's Volt Switches. Especially with Whirlipede offense being literally everywhere on the ladder Throh has a hard time staying healthy to check the threats it's supposed to check. RestTalk sets often outlive the opponent but can be exploited as RestTalk is far from reliable. It also has more than enough checks in the tier as PU is quite prepared for Fighting-types because of how common and good they are. Examples of those are Air Slash Pelipper (agree with Dundies here btw, I see little reason not to use Air Slash as without it Pelipper just sits there and can't actually touch the Fighting-types it walls lmao), Dodrio, Beheeyem (creeps it), Jumpluff, Roselia, Kadabra, Togetic, etc. Throh is definitely an amazing Pokemon, but I am not sure yet if it's so amazing that it needs a ban. On the fence about Throh.

Sneasel's ban is long overdue. This little monster is incredibly overcentralizing as it simply forces you to use Throh, Poliwrath, Monferno, or defensive Carracosta if you don't want to have to sack something everytime Sneasel gets a safe switch in. With its high Speed, decent Attack, and great coverage it can destroy offense with ease. Sure, Choice Scarf users like Mr. Mime can revenge kill it but those even fail to do so if weakened because of Ice Shard, and they cannot switch in either so you often need to sack something to even get the Choice Scarf user inside. PU has adapted to Sneasel ages ago, which is why everyone has a Fighting-type, but that only shows how unhealthy Sneasel is for the tier. Granted, Sneasel is extremely easy to wear down because of Life Orb recoil and its weakness to all entry hazards, which is especially noticable because Whirlipede offense is everywhere. However, if there are no entry hazards on your side of the field or just like one Spike than Sneasel has no trouble ripping through teams lacking a dedicated counter. Definitely ban Sneasel.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Everything has already been said but might as well make a post anyway.

Hmm...I don't know.
So far we are all talking about (or mostly talking about) how good they are and why they need to go, even if there are drawbacks.
I think we made a decent amount of posts as to why they are good.
Now we should start talking/thinking about why they shouldn't be banned, and coming up for more arguments on that. It can definitely open our eyes to new possibilities/things we haven't thought about before. Just my two cents.

That wasn't a point in banning it js I just wanted to state it since I see Sneasels win a 1v1 against a check with a Icicle Crash flinch all day long, so I thought it would be at least worth a mention in the post since I was explaining Sneasel's positive aspects in its coverage.
I made it clear in the post though

I know, I didn't mean to come off as you making it a point, sorry about that. I was just saying it is still irrelevant and unnecessary information, because things can happen against Sneasel from other mons that it normally 1v1s, like what about Sneasel missing Icicle Crash and dying? That can also happen, so I was just saying it doesn't merit enough reason to be said.

 

[mael]

sneasel is just good, it can beat so many pokemon and the worst part is, that it's ability to give chip damage to everything with pursuit, makes it so easy to open holes in defensive cores and allow other members of the team to sweep. I'm talking about stuff like roselia, taking pursuit, rocks damage and suddenly being in range for zebra or whatever else wants to do damage vs the opponent. It's also insanely fast and does damage, even to bulky mons, not gonna talk about how much of a spamable move knock off is.

Not sure if it's banable, considering that Poliwrath is on 7/6 teams and it's sometimes pretty hard to bring it in on stuff it's supposed to be good at. I mean of course, having sneasel out is threatening, but getting into that position is hard, considering that it dies from roselias hp fire for example. I've been using a lot of sneasel, but it did it best work, when I risked stuff with double switches, but that's not how I want to play and that's probably not how a broken pokemon should be working. I'm unsure about it being banned, I'd probably vote ban, just so there are less mons in the tier.

Throh I can't judge, haven't used it a lot, but it seems to be on the edge too.

 

[2xTheTap]

While Throh is easily an S Rank Pokemon thanks to its awesome coverage (Fighting and Dark cover everything but Fairy, and all Fairies in the tier outside of Carbink cannot afford to lose their items whether it's an Eviolite or a Choice Scarf), its great bulk, and the fact that most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully, I still think even despite all of this that Throh does not deserve a ban.

Throh is a Pokemon that I've had extensive experience using since the post-Musharna meta, and so I'm well aware of Throh's limitations. Throh can beat either Stall with its Taunt / Toxic set or Offense with its RestTalk set, but it obviously can't run both sets at the same time. If you attempt to run Taunt / Toxic to beat Stall and you happen to encounter Offense on the ladder, Throh is worn down too quickly, especially given the fact that it has so many checks in the tier.

For example, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Leafeon, Torterra, Nastypass Togetic, Mr. Mime, LO Swanna, CB Dodrio, CB Zweilous, Offensive Pivot Pelipper, SF LO Zen Headbutt Rampardos, 44 Spe Specs Beheeyem (provided Throh isn't running more speed), CB Luxray with Intimidate, Coil Arbok with Intimidate, Guts Adamant Ursaring (and many more) can all OHKO or 2HKO Throh without being OHKO'd themselves, even if most of these can't switch in directly.

I did not list every check that exists in PU, but the point is, there are many; enough to the point that Throh struggles after it scores a KO because it is too slow to take on the revenge killer in most cases. If Throh were faster or carried priority to handle its revenge killers like Kecleon did, I'd argue for a ban for sure, but the fact is there are too many faster checks in PU to logically justify a ban.

Additionally, its standard moveset of Knock Off / Storm or Circle Throw / Rest / Sleep Talk plays fairly inconsistently because Sleep Talk only lets you damage your opponent 66% of the time. This, in conjunction with its many checks, means that there's a possibility your opponent's check to Throh will be able to switch in directly after a Rest and set up on you as you select Rest again (or simply Taunt you out of Sleep Talk) - Dundies' Leafeon up above was a good example.

Finally, I don't think banning one of two fully evolved Fighting type Pokemon will be healthy for the PU metagame in the long run. This by itself would be clearly limiting to PU because if you wanted a solid answer to Knock Off in order to keep your team's items in tact, you'd be forced to run Carbink or Poliwrath pretty much. Consequently, if you were forced to run either Poliwrath or Carbink for Knock Off absorption (Carbink isn't even a safe option because Pawniard exists), your team composition would be too limited to run an offensive Water type, like SS Huntail, SS Carracosta, SS Barbaracle, Floatzel, Kingler or Basculin, as there would be too many type weaknesses in common (e.g. Water + Water, Water + Water/Rock, Rock + Water, or Rock + Water/Rock).

There are a few more reasons why Throh shouldn't be banned, but I'll leave it there for now! I may also post on Sneasel later, but it seems like a clear ban to me at this point.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

While Throh is easily an S Rank Pokemon thanks to its awesome coverage (Fighting and Dark cover everything but Fairy, and all Fairies in the tier outside of Carbink cannot afford to lose their items whether it's an Eviolite or a Choice Scarf), its great bulk, and the fact that most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully, I still think even despite all of this that Throh does not deserve a ban.

Throh is a Pokemon that I've had extensive experience using since the post-Musharna meta, and so I'm well aware of Throh's limitations. Throh can beat either Stall with its Taunt / Toxic set or Offense with its RestTalk set, but it obviously can't run both sets at the same time. If you attempt to run Taunt / Toxic to beat Stall and you happen to encounter Offense on the ladder, Throh is worn down too quickly, especially given the fact that it has so many checks in the tier.

For example, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Leafeon, Torterra, Nastypass Togetic, Mr. Mime, LO Swanna, CB Dodrio, CB Zweilous, Offensive Pivot Pelipper, SF LO Zen Headbutt Rampardos, 44 Spe Specs Beheeyem (provided Throh isn't running more speed), CB Luxray with Intimidate, Coil Arbok with Intimidate, Guts Adamant Ursaring (and many more) can all OHKO or 2HKO Throh without being OHKO'd themselves, even if most of these can't switch in directly.

I did not list every check that exists in PU, but the point is, there are many; enough to the point that Throh struggles after it scores a KO because it is too slow to take on the revenge killer in most cases. If Throh were faster or carried priority to handle its revenge killers like Kecleon did, I'd argue for a ban for sure, but the fact is there are too many faster checks in PU to logically justify a ban.

Additionally, its standard moveset of Knock Off / Storm or Circle Throw / Rest / Sleep Talk plays fairly inconsistently because Sleep Talk only lets you damage your opponent 66% of the time. This, in conjunction with its many checks, means that there's a possibility your opponent's check to Throh will be able to switch in directly after a Rest and set up on you as you select Rest again (or simply Taunt you out of Sleep Talk) - Dundies' Leafeon up above was a good example.

Finally, I don't think banning one of two fully evolved Fighting type Pokemon will be healthy for the PU metagame in the long run. This by itself would be clearly limiting to PU because if you wanted a solid answer to Knock Off in order to keep your team's items in tact, you'd be forced to run Carbink or Poliwrath pretty much. Consequently, if you were forced to run either Poliwrath or Carbink for Knock Off absorption (Carbink isn't even a safe option because Pawniard exists), your team composition would be too limited to run an offensive Water type, like SS Huntail, SS Carracosta, SS Barbaracle, Floatzel, Kingler or Basculin, as there would be too many type weaknesses in common (e.g. Water + Water, Water + Water/Rock, Rock + Water, or Rock + Water/Rock).

There are a few more reasons why Throh shouldn't be banned, but I'll leave it there for now! I may also post on Sneasel later, but it seems like a clear ban to me at this point.

While I agree with most of those points, you mentioned how RestTalk or Toxic/Taunt is dealt with by stall/offense respectively. While that is true, that only shows how flexible it is for various types of teams that need to deal with either stall or offense better, making it well-rounded. Also, a lot of the Pokemon you mentioned still are just "checks". Circle Throw and other moves make it so that usually they can't switch in, but rather wait for something to die or for Circle Throw to bring them in, especially when used on hazard stack. Taunt/Toxic still ensure that when these things switch in they will be crippled in some way, either Taunted (Togetic, Arbok, Jumpluff, etc) or Toxic-ed (Pretty much all of them) which will help your team in some way. Knock Off is still a free option where even though it won't deal damage, something will lose an item. CB offensive Throh also removes Leafeon, Torterra, Ursaring (maybe Togetic, idk how much CB Ice Punch does) and what not off of that list. While I agree what you are trying to say about why it is bad removing one of our only fighting-types, it's something that can't be helped, really. We also can't always predict the way the meta will change, because Poli is already on pretty much every team you see which technically limits a lot of people's use of water types and what not already. You also need to remember that other Pokemon will rise with the absence of Sneasel/Throh (either or) after banning.
Throh isn't a sweeper, which is what you have to realize. It isn't OHKO'd by p much everything and has a lot of offensive pressure. It scrambles or just makes holes in the team, or crippling a mon that you need damaged for another team member.
Overall I do agree with you and your points, there are a variety of mons that do check Throh, making it not the big unkillable monster people make it out to be.

 

[Anty]

Throh is a Pokemon that I've had extensive experience using since the post-Musharna meta, and so I'm well aware of Throh's limitations. Throh can beat either Stall with its Taunt / Toxic set or Offense with its RestTalk set, but it obviously can't run both sets at the same time. If you attempt to run Taunt / Toxic to beat Stall and you happen to encounter Offense on the ladder, Throh is worn down too quickly, especially given the fact that it has so many checks in the tier.

I dont really understand this logic. Beating only either stall or only either offense doesnt make it not broken. Look at OU Genesect, it had an amazing matchup vs offense as it could freely uturn, gaining momentum and hitting hard, or smash the opposing team with coverage, but yet if you look at its matchup vs stall it had a much harder time trying to brake through stall which have pokes like heatran which just wall it, and that is in a tier with stall viable. Tauros had a bad matchup with stall as they would always run misdreavus/solrock just for it, and that doesnt stop it being broken as it fucked over offense. Stall isnt even relevant in this tier and the taunt + toxic set is pretty bad when you would much rather run ice punch over throh to beat pokes like jumpluff. Offensive teams dont have as much of a problem with restalk than with ice punch + toxic as now pokes like jumpluff cannot easily deal with it, restalk only really screws over balance that relies on pelipper as a 'counter'. Also being able to chose whether to 'beat' one playstyle or another is a good sign of broken-ness

For example, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Leafeon, Torterra, Nastypass Togetic, Mr. Mime, LO Swanna, CB Dodrio, CB Zweilous, Offensive Pivot Pelipper, SF LO Zen Headbutt Rampardos, 44 Spe Specs Beheeyem (provided Throh isn't running more speed), CB Luxray with Intimidate, Coil Arbok with Intimidate, Guts Adamant Ursaring (and many more) can all OHKO or 2HKO Throh without being OHKO'd themselves, even if most of these can't switch in directly.

Well done, you list a bunch of Pokemon which outspeed and have super effective stabs or high physical bulk/defensive type advantage, but there are two problems here. Firstly, non of these (bar maybe bulky arbok which is the inferior set imo) enjoy switching in, others really dont do that much damage (mr mime does about 65 with a super effective STAB), and some just die to coverage. Secondly, listing a bunch of mons that can check is really isnt a great argument, as that be done for plenty of broken pokes, RU pangoro for example; it is similar to throh as it can hit hard with great coverage however was very easy to revenge kill, but yet it was still broken as fuck. Also note that it has a better matchup with all but 7 of the 30 pokes in S and A rank, with those having type advantages or a lot of bulk.

I did not list every check that exists in PU, but the point is, there are many; enough to the point that Throh struggles after it scores a KO because it is too slow to take on the revenge killer in most cases. If Throh were faster or carried priority to handle its revenge killers like Kecleon did, I'd argue for a ban for sure, but the fact is there are too many faster checks in PU to logically justify a ban.

This point is similar to the point above but i would like to say that every Pokemon has revenge killers, but that doesnt mean that a poke isnt broken. Again look at the example of RU pangoro, it has plenty of revenge killers but still be broken as fuck.

Additionally, its standard moveset of Knock Off / Storm or Circle Throw / Rest / Sleep Talk plays fairly inconsistently because Sleep Talk only lets you damage your opponent 66% of the time. This, in conjunction with its many checks, means that there's a possibility your opponent's check to Throh will be able to switch in directly after a Rest and set up on you as you select Rest again (or simply Taunt you out of Sleep Talk) - Dundies' Leafeon up above was a good example.

Its standard set is Storm Throw/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Toxic, which restalk coming second, and i highly doubt the opposing throh will allow your leafeon to set up on it while it is sleeping, in the same way that if a jumpluff has put your poke to sleep, you switch right out so it cannot keep setting up.

Finally, I don't think banning one of two fully evolved Fighting type Pokemon will be healthy for the PU metagame in the long run. This by itself would be clearly limiting to PU because if you wanted a solid answer to Knock Off in order to keep your team's items in tact, you'd be forced to run Carbink or Poliwrath pretty much. Consequently, if you were forced to run either Poliwrath or Carbink for Knock Off absorption (Carbink isn't even a safe option because Pawniard exists), your team composition would be too limited to run an offensive Water type, like SS Huntail, SS Carracosta, SS Barbaracle, Floatzel, Kingler or Basculin, as there would be too many type weaknesses in common (e.g. Water + Water, Water + Water/Rock, Rock + Water, or Rock + Water/Rock).

A few things regarding this paragraph:

• Broken checks broken is not a valid argument; if banning throh makes something else broken we should then ban that, instead of enduring twice the cancer
• The thing about Carbink + poli on every team is a very bold statement considering you dont know the metagame is going to be (there is a high chance machoke will get better), and we are about to use the best two users of knock off, and there are plenty more knock off spongers like torterra

There are a few more reasons why Throh shouldn't be banned, but I'll leave it there for now! I may also post on Sneasel later, but it seems like a clear ban to me at this point

In this post you just talk about revenge killers of a base 45 speed pokemon, but yet you fail to address its utility in switching into half the tier and its lack of switch ins. It is easy enough to say x, y, and z check a, but none can switch in and a beats most of the other letters (sorry for the dumb metaphor)

 

[MZ]

So I don't see a reason to post my thoughts on sneasel, as a mon with two counters, good move pool, etc. is definitely broken right now. Throh though... I'm not convinced. It's definitely S rank and very good, but why broken? It can be easily worn down unless it's rest/talk, which loses out on the coverage it needs to beat would be counters like Jumpluff and Pelipper. 4 attacks, choice band, or 3 attacks toxic are all very threatening, but that's all I see throh as. Something threatening I have to include things like Arbok and Jumpluff for. You're probably not going to OHKO a throh and it's going to be a good mon, but I don't think that banning it makes sense. I've been playing a lot of offense recently, which is what throh tends to be good against. Yet by preparing for it, just like you do with any S rank mon, I never found myself losing simply because throh is too good. With the right moveset throh lacks a counter, but it's not difficult to check and weaken with things like Poliwrath and Arbok. I understand that this doesn't bring anything new to the table, and that's because most aspects of throh have already been discussed. But, while it's good, I'm not going to ban it for being a great mon, and right now I only see throh as very good and threatening, not broken. Similar to Mega Metagross in OU, you can run ice punch or hammer arm or whatever to break past counters, but it can be beaten depending on its move set, has plenty of good checks, can be worn down, and isn't fast enough to beat out most common threats (Meta is pretty fast esp rp, that applies to throh). Throh is amazing right now, and can easily fit on most teams with little opportunity cost, but I'd still vote no ban.

 

[Magnemite]

So I don't see a reason to post my thoughts on sneasel, as a mon with two counters, good move pool, etc. is definitely broken right now. Throh though... I'm not convinced. It's definitely S rank and very good, but why broken? It can be easily worn down unless it's rest/talk, which loses out on the coverage it needs to beat would be counters like Jumpluff and Pelipper. 4 attacks, choice band, or 3 attacks toxic are all very threatening, but that's all I see throh as. Something threatening I have to include things like Arbok and Jumpluff for. You're probably not going to OHKO a throh and it's going to be a good mon, but I don't think that banning it makes sense. I've been playing a lot of offense recently, which is what throh tends to be good against. Yet by preparing for it, just like you do with any S rank mon, I never found myself losing simply because throh is too good. With the right moveset throh lacks a counter, but it's not difficult to check and weaken with things like Poliwrath and Arbok. I understand that this doesn't bring anything new to the table, and that's because most aspects of throh have already been discussed. But, while it's good, I'm not going to ban it for being a great mon, and right now I only see throh as very good and threatening, not broken. Similar to Mega Metagross in OU, you can run ice punch or hammer arm or whatever to break past counters, but it can be beaten depending on its move set, has plenty of good checks, can be worn down, and isn't fast enough to beat out most common threats (Meta is pretty fast esp rp, that applies to throh). Throh is amazing right now, and can easily fit on most teams with little opportunity cost, but I'd still vote no ban.

I don't really think you can count its lack of ability to beat otherwise good switch ins as a hinderance to Resttalk Throh. Unlike other Pokemon, Throh having a few switch-ins isn't too much of a hinderance to it because of the fact that it can switch in on so much. It doesn't particularly matter if Resttalk Throh lets Pelipper in for free, as it's not supposed to be a wallbreaker, it's supposed to switch in on half the tier and never die because it can just Rest up on so much stuff, all while crippling defensive switch-ins with Knock Off or just hitting whatever tries to switch in hard against offense. Being able to OHKO its otherwise safe switch-ins with coverage moves is just a perk, but it doesn't mean that Resttalk Throh is any worse because it can't do this. The fact that non-Resttalk Throh is worn down easily doesn't make Throh much less broken when Resttalk is the most common set. Throh's brokenness doesn't stem from the fact that it has has very few good switch-ins (though this obviously doesn't help it be any less broken), it stems from the fact that it can take hits easily from so much of the tier and easily wear down its switch-ins (none of which have recovery aside from Pelipper), all while never dying because of Rest and its absurd overall bulk. In fact, I'd argue that Throh is actually quite hard to wear down all things considered, as it is resistant to Stealth Rock, is very dangerous to status because of Guts, and can run Resttalk without losing out on any crucially important moves. You say that Throh is easily prepared for, but preparing for it (which in and of itself is difficult as it only has a very small number of switch-ins that aren't crippled or 2HKOed / 3HKOed by it) doesn't really even help that much because having switch-ins to Throh doesn't stop it from doing its job effectively at all, which is to beat half of your team with relative ease and never die.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

People seem to forget how low-risk high-reward Throh is because he can easily get off damage or cripple anything he wants to. He has access to recovery (which is somewhat unreliable), but it does activate Guts on Throh making him hit harder then he already does. It increases his longevity with his already insane bulk and typing, and can freely use his moves forcing switches left and right, and once the switch has been weakened or removed, he allows other teammates to finish off the opposing team after removing an obstacle preventing them to do so. Throh is just very safe, because he can do well against either offense OR stall, giving him great flexibility on teams, and making "just burning the physical attacker" not an option, especially since he takes minimal damage from Pokes that aren't highly offensive which cannot switch into Throh at all. It makes him even more viable on hazard stack because while you want to switch in a counter/check, you cannot especially with the threat of Throh switching you out by freely spamming Circle Throh (lol) and crippling the opposing team by an immense amount. Ghosts aren't free switch-ins either because Knock Off will do big damage against them. While he can only run one set, he is relatively safe with any set that fits your team, which makes him all the more problematic and broken. Even with Taunt/Toxic, things like Pluff and Arbok swtiching in on a Taunt will render them very limited for another teammate to switch in for free not fearing a set-up move or status move, providing overall team support and continually pressuring the enemy team.

 

[gasquakee]

I think ive been sick in the last two suspects :o
on to the important stuff..

Ah.. sneasel, sneasel, sneasel. This one should be cut and dry. Its got a few solid switchins Poliwrath, Throh, and Defensive Carracosta. It can cut through offensive teams and cripple defensive teams alike. With the amount of power it gets with Life Orb + Knock off + Stab theres a big warning sign especially with the speed its coupled with the sweep through teams. Not only that but it forces you to run a dedicated stop for it unless you want to sack a pokemoneverytime it comes in so you can try to bring in a check to it where it can just switch out and come back in later to do the same thing. That in itself is far too over centralizing for it to be healthy in the tier especially with the low amounts of counters it has. Like I said.. the easier one. Tldr ban.

Throh is a different animal entirely. With whopping bulk stats of 120/85/85 its really hard to kill even with super effective hits in the tier. The common set has a variety of checks/counters including Dodrio, Togetic, Beheeyem, Shell Armor Torterra, Kadabra, Jumpluff, and Swanna just to name a few. The huge trouble I have with throh is its hard to counter depending on the set. One really good counter that was good before we discovered Ice Punch was Jumpluff but now that it runs that it could always be pressured by the idea of an incoming Ice Punch. However a throh running ice punch instantly makes it easier to wear down with chip damage and hazards a like. Im hugely on the fence about this one just because the lack of counters depending on the set is a trouble but at this point in time I would vote no ban for throh.

 

[Deej Dy]

I just want to voice that while I do not think Throh is per-say "broken", I would vote to ban it as it can restrict Teambuilding as it fits a bit too easily on teams. I think it leaving would be a positive for the meta, as new mons such as Machoke, Pancham, and bulky mons will have more opportunties and Thoh is getting stale in the metagame. I vote for it to leave over poly mainly because the sets are nearly all identical and boring, unlike poliwrath that has versatility in special/physical sets or phazing.

I find this situation similar to Megalix in NU, but not quite as polarized towards ban. Like Lix, Throh fits a bit too easy on each team, and although I voted "abstain" for lix, the meta is honestly more balanced now. I feel the same would apply for Throh.

Overall, Throh strikes not quite as overwelming like Pangoro in RU or Serperior in NU, but more like the case of Megalix where it fits too easily with minimal team-building effort.

I never use it cause I think Poly is superior though ;)

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I just want to voice that while I do not think Throh is per-say "broken", I would vote to ban it as it can restrict Teambuilding as it fits a bit too easily on teams. I think it leaving would be a positive for the meta, as new mons such as Machoke, Pancham, and bulky mons will have more opportunties and Thoh is getting stale in the metagame. I vote for it to leave over poly mainly because the sets are nearly all identical and boring, unlike poliwrath that has versatility in special/physical sets or phazing.

I find this situation similar to Megalix in NU, but not quite as polarized towards ban. Like Lix, Throh fits a bit too easy on each team, and although I voted "abstain" for lix, the meta is honestly more balanced now. I feel the same would apply for Throh.

Overall, Throh strikes not quite as overwelming like Pangoro in RU or Serperior in NU, but more like the case of Megalix where it fits too easily with minimal team-building effort.

I never use it cause I think Poly is superior though ;)

I find it hard to buy this argument. I don't get why Machoke and Pancham are concerns; are we going to ban Regice so that Vanilluxe doesn't get outclassed? I don't think all the sets are identical either; even if they were I'd argue that being one-dimensional is a minus point and not something to ban over.

I don't find Throh fitting in that easily with minimal teambuilding tbh. To be honest it's difficult to judge this with Sneasel in the tier forcing us all to run one of Throh / Poliwrath / Costa, but like you yourself said it's not always possible to just throh it into your team because of the opportunity cost of not using Poliwrath which has a nice water typing, Carracosta which has sr, etc

The only part of that argument I find somewhat convincing is when you state that bulky mons would get more opportunities. I would like to clarify why that is a case for a ban though, because bulky mons can easily be paired with teammates that take on Throh such as Pelipper or Arbok, while wearing it down by chipping away at it, which isn't much different from another mon that is just as hard to switch into like Ninetales or Leafeon.

(still on the fence over Throh)