ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

[Thisbemyalt]

Thats like saying belly drum Azumaril is bad because you always use choice band. This post does not justify ignorance.

Edit: Or like saying swiss is better than cheddar but never tried cheddar.

He is not wrong though pokemon is a game in which any random mon can be used with success in really any tier hell in XY I used rain dance lotad as a groudon check and it worked lmao. On a serious note tho he can fully judge and critique any mon/set he wants because by examining the meta game around this one mon we can estimate its abilities especially through the use of calcs and replays. If you were the only person who used growth you wouldnt be the only person allowed to judge its rank. With all that being said I have no real opinion on growth however I agree both dragalge and gatr need a rise, i dont remember how long ago it was when someone suggested gatr for S but it needs to happen or at least a reason given for why it shouldn't be S because frankly gatr is the most potent setup sweeper atm.
Also on mobile so sorry for garbage ass post

 

[Mazz]

If you check the previous postings on iron chef youll find that I created this team before the iron chef challenge. I didnt use tangrowth because i was forced to. I used it because feraligatr can sweep if I dont. I found out while using Tangrowth that it does a lot more than hard check feraligatr. It stops dd salamence, ruins my opponents win conditions, and leaves massive holes in my enemys team for something else to sweep.

If you watch my video or the replays youll see why its grass typing does not matter. Grass typing isnt that bad anyway in a bulky water tier.

Mazz you cannot try to critisize something you have never used. I took my Tangrowth team to top 5. The core rarely losses. Thats just with a defensive one. It can be so versitile.

Tangrowth for B

Edit: sorry im on a phone and dont have time to debunk some of that statement but maybe i will later.

Thats like saying belly drum Azumaril is bad because you always use choice band. This post does not justify ignorance.

Edit: Or like saying swiss is better than cheddar but never tried cheddar.

I'm only going to go after the bolded points here; arguing the viability of Tangrowth is exceedingly pointless - it's not common enough to be worth the hassle, and there's better things to be discussing (read: Dragalge). Curiously, the only points of mine you ever really addressed were the hype surrounding Tangrowth at the moment and its Grass-typing. Do you not have any shoddy counter-arguments to the other viable points I made?

Yes, Tangrowth checks Feraligatr. I'll give you that. Some DD Salamence run Fire Blast though; so I wouldn't deal in absolutes when referring to Tangrowth as a "stop" to DD Salamence. It limits its use, but there's ways of getting around Tangrowth. Grass-typing is bad typing. I've gone over this already, and any significant user will back that statement up. You're weak to common offensive types. There's no ay around that. Your replay of Tangrowth barely tanking a Megahorn only reinforces that. Now you're forced into switching or you're death fodder. The core rarely loses and got so high on the ladder because of the amount of support each individual Pokemon has; I personally don't see why you run Tangrowth when there are alternate solutions to the issues your team has. This only supplements an argument for B-. Tangrowth is not versitile, don't feed me that shit. I highly doubt a Sunny Day set is worth using due to Tangrowth's abysmal Speed stat. Besides that, you can run a support set or an inferior SD Virizon.

In terms of me criticizing something I've never used; I have used Tangrowth in XY and BW before; both metagames were less "vicious" in terms of threats; Salamence and the new Mega-evolutions brought by ORAS (and XY in terms of BW) didn't exist, and it was still an inferior Pokemon in BW and XY to other physical tanks. By simply theorymoning, it's not difficult to figure out that Tangrowth is not effective in the ORAS UU metagame. Yes it works if it has enough support, but that defeats the purpose. Why run something that needs oodles of support when you can run Mega-Aggron, Amoonguss, or any other physical tank that needs less support to be as effective or more effective? Don't take me arguing against pushing Tangrowth up as ignorance, it simply isn't. I'm not running around without facts to deny your claim - what I say makes sense.

 

[Lilligant for OU]

Thats like saying belly drum Azumaril is bad because you always use choice band. This post does not justify ignorance.

Edit: Or like saying swiss is better than cheddar but never tried cheddar.

People have their own opinions, some might say belly drum is indeed a bad set. And that comparison about the cheese, that's a whole different thing than pokemon.
I personally have killed many tangrowths, with little to no issue

 

[aim]

Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next few days:

Beedrill: A > A- or B+
Dragalge: B+ > A-
Meloetta: B- > B or B+
Pangoro: B- > B or B+
Qwilfish: B- > B
Granbull: C > B- or B

More pokemon will be added as we further discuss but for now this is what I'd like the focus of our discussion to be on

 

[DaSpoofy]

I'm only going to go after the bolded points here; arguing the viability of Tangrowth is exceedingly pointless - it's not common enough to be worth the hassle, and there's better things to be discussing (read: Dragalge). Curiously, the only points of mine you ever really addressed were the hype surrounding Tangrowth at the moment and its Grass-typing. Do you not have any shoddy counter-arguments to the other viable points I made?

Tangrowth is unique. It's a physical wall that puts things to sleep and knocks off items while being able to be an answer for common physical threats.

Yes, Tangrowth checks Feraligatr. I'll give you that. Some DD Salamence run Fire Blast though; so I wouldn't deal in absolutes when referring to Tangrowth as a "stop" to DD Salamence.

In the last 50 battles Ive had, I've see one fireblast salamence. Its not very common to run fireblast over irontail since florges is far more common that tangrowth... dont you agree? Anyway you can always scout the fireblast and a LO is a pretty good indication it carries it.

It limits its use, but there's ways of getting around Tangrowth. Grass-typing is bad typing. I've gone over this already, and any significant user will back that statement up. You're weak to common offensive types.

What offensive mons? Entei sure but things can compensate for that such at slowking or suicune. Heracross which can be worked around with banded and I can take hits if its not.... and darmanitan?

There's no ay around that. Your replay of Tangrowth barely tanking a Megahorn only reinforces that. Now you're forced into switching or you're death fodder. The core rarely loses and got so high on the ladder because of the amount of support each individual Pokemon has; I personally don't see why you run Tangrowth when there are alternate solutions to the issues your team has.

If i barely live something it doesnt matter with tangrowth. I switch out and do it all over again except now my oponent has a sleep fodder or is missing a few items. Once again I run tangrowth for Ferg. There is no good alternative for ferg as a wall.

This only supplements an argument for B-. Tangrowth is not versitile, don't feed me that shit. I highly doubt a Sunny Day set is worth using due to Tangrowth's abysmal Speed stat. Besides that, you can run a support set or an inferior SD Virizon.

Who the hell said sunny day? lol LO is good though. Tangrowths movepool is amazing! Focus blast eq leafstorm gigdrain hp any knock off sludge bomb rock slide power whip. It has great attack and spAttack as well as defensces so its really hard to predict.

In terms of me criticizing something I've never used; I have used Tangrowth in XY and BW before; both metagames were less "vicious" in terms of threats; Salamence and the new Mega-evolutions brought by ORAS (and XY in terms of BW) didn't exist, and it was still an inferior Pokemon in BW and XY to other physical tanks. By simply theorymoning, it's not difficult to figure out that Tangrowth is not effective in the ORAS UU metagame. Yes it works if it has enough support, but that defeats the purpose. Why run something that needs oodles of support when you can run Mega-Aggron, Amoonguss, or any other physical tank that needs less support to be as effective or more effective? Don't take me arguing against pushing Tangrowth up as ignorance, it simply isn't. I'm not running around without facts to deny your claim - what I say makes sense.

You just admitted you never used Tangrowth in the current meta and your assuming all of this. The things(which can be a number of things) that support tangrowth are versatile in what they do making your team a monster to work around. Spekaing of which, how do you work around tangrowth? Oh just switch to your poison type to take a hit and kill. Wait tangrowth sleep powders and criples with knock off. Switchin to "work around tangrowth" suddenly doesnt seem like it works. Stop arguing! You have nothing to say other than rant about the swiss being better than the cheddar. You may just not like me. Please if your going to make a compelling argument, have some basic knowledge of what your talking about first.

Edit: Sry aim I posted this before i saw that.

 

[Bouff]

ok i don't post here as much as i used to but i'll talk about some of these noms :D

: Yeah, at this point in the metagame I feel like Beedrill should go down to A-, it's pretty much forced to Protect whenever it wants to Mega Evolve if it doesn't want to get outsped and OHKO'd by a pretty large portion of the metagame. A lot of teams can prepare for it pretty easily as well, since bulky offense has Crobat (usually itemless variants work best) or Mega Aerodactyl, balance teams usually carry one of those two along with stuff like Gligar and Mega Aggron, and most of the time Beedrill won't even be doing much against stall teams unless it's running a swords dance set, which is pretty difficult to set up in most scenarios. it also doesn't really help that it has a barren movepool outside of STAB moves either, since knock off and drill run don't compliment u-turn / pjab amazingly. i don't really think that it should go as low as B+ though since beedrill + magneton is a pretty nasty offensive core, and even if it gets boned by sr hazard control is pretty much every team ran with beedrill anyway. definitely a good mon, just not as good as it used to be.

: Definitely agree with this one moving up. Dragalge just does so much for bulky offense / balance rn so A- is a good spot for it right now, since it has an amazing STAB typing, both offensively and defensively, with Draco Meteor + Sludge Bomb (or Wave if you're worried about Chesnaught i guess but it doesnt really matter lol) hits nearly anything that isn't a Steel-type for a shit ton of damage, and even they aren't safe against Dragalge thanks to Focus Blast. On the other hand absorbing Toxic Spikes while resisting Fire, Grass, Water, Fighting, Electric, etc. is just a godsend, and as IB pointed out if you run a physically defensive spread you can counter some common offensive mons. It even has some nice movepool options to go with Tspikes / Dmeteor / Sludge Bomb, like Scald, Haze, Dragon Tail, along with offensive options like Dragon Pulse and the aforementioned Focus Blast (protect is also a p cool option that i've seen some people use). Yeah it doesn't have the ability to set up SR + Toxic Spikes reliably while countering most Fighting-types like Nidoqueen or the sheer amount of utility Tenta has, and its speed isn't good, but the wallbreaking potential that comes with running Dragalge makes A- perfect for it.

: Qwilfish could probably move up imo, it offers a lot of utility on balance teams as a Spikes setter while also fufilling a decent niche on rain teams as well. Reg Spikes in general are fairly anti-meta at the moment, since a lot of teams are more focused on dealing with Toxic Spikes imo, and Qwilfish can set both up reliably (I don't mean running both on the same set btw lol, usually something like Spikes or Toxic Spikes / Waterfall or Scald / Taunt / Thunder Wave is the way to go, at least for me), thanks to its surprisingly high natural speed and its good physical bulk coupled with Intimidate, which lets it check stuff like Entei, Heracross, Mienshao, and Machamp, and it also soaks up Toxic Spikes which is nice for balance teams but is extremely helpful if being run on Rain teams since Mega Swampert, Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. all hate Toxic Spikes and it offers a ton of utility on hyper offensive builds like those as well with options like Icy Wind, Explosion, and Destiny Bond. I haven't played with it as much as I would have liked but I definitely think it's deserving of at least B.

 

[Ununhexium]

The only one I have much experience with or against is Beedrill. I does seem very good on paper, but in practice its relatively underwhelming. I understand its the cornerstone of VoltTurn teams, a large reason it shouldn't drop below A- for the moment, but it does have many fairly solid checks, most of which are good Pokemon otherwise. Also, it has a sligt case of 4 moveslot syndrome, as it wants to run Protect, U-turn, Poison Jab, Knock Off, Swords Dance, and Drill Run all at once, ad dropping one means it has a slim to none chance of beating many important Pokemon.

I'd write more but posting from a phone sucks.

 

[Magis4Life]

I think Pangoro should stay B- rank (though I'm not opposed to B rank either). I would say that Pangoro's biggest issue is not only the competition it faces with other fighting types, in particular Heracross who on top of sporting a resistance to knock off like Panda does on top of being a massive threat to stall with its cb and sd sets like Pangoro has a better speed tier, can run more versatile sets (even though Pangoro's movepool is also pretty damn good and offensive STABs, sporting one of the most powerful knock offs, amazing as well), and sports a better ability in guts in a metagame infested with scald burns (which makes Heracross albeit more difficult to deal with against stall for the most part since even lum+sd Pangoro is susceptible to burn), it's speed also leaves a lot to be desired and combined with mediocre bulk suffers much more against offense teams. Overall, I think B+ is a little too much for it and B-/B is fine.

 

[bsu]

I personally think M-beedrill should actually move down to B+ since as many people said it has common walls/checks. Although it is good on volt turn, thats kind of its only niche, besides just a strong, fast attacker. The main reason I think it should move down though is its incredible weakness to the most common mega: m-aero. Not only is there opportunity cost, but there's like <1% of it beating aero 1v1 as aero can switch in for free basically every single time. It also can't do much to a lot of the stealth rockers in the tier aside from knock off, which really only hurts like bronzong. Its low def makes it susceptible to a lot of priority, although its oddly high spdef lets it eat a few moon blasts and no-burn scalds, and even a LO hydreigon's dark pulse.
idk beedrill is good but just not good enough imo :/

 

[Sam]

I personally think M-beedrill should actually move down to B+ since as many people said it has common walls/checks. Although it is good on volt turn, thats kind of its only niche, besides just a strong, fast attacker. The main reason I think it should move down though is its incredible weakness to the most common mega: m-aero. Not only is there opportunity cost, but there's like <1% of it beating aero 1v1 as aero can switch in for free basically every single time. It also can't do much to a lot of the stealth rockers in the tier aside from knock off, which really only hurts like bronzong. Its low def makes it susceptible to a lot of priority, although its oddly high spdef lets it eat a few moon blasts and no-burn scalds, and even a LO hydreigon's dark pulse.
idk beedrill is good but just not good enough imo :/

Aero can switch in every time, but Beedrill can just U-turn on the switch (which isn't a major prediction or anything, Beedrill is U-turning 99% of the time anyway). Being good on volt turn teams isn't really a niche since those team archetypes are incredibly good in the current meta.

Honestly I think Beedrill is still fine in A since U-turn makes up for almost all of its faults besides maybe rocks weakness. All it needs to performs its role well is high Attack and Speed, which it obviously possesses. I might be a little biased because I commonly make volt turn teams, but there is almost nothing in the tier that is stopping Beedrill from doing its job. It's a momentum machine. It doesn't have the best capabilities of getting in, but it can makes its way in via voltturn or come in on some common stuff (mostly Florges). There's probably nothing scarier once inside than Beedrill since there's not much you can do to come out on top against it.

 

[Kink]

Aero can switch in every time, but Beedrill can just U-turn on the switch (which isn't a major prediction or anything, Beedrill is U-turning 99% of the time anyway). Being good on volt turn teams isn't really a niche since those team archetypes are incredibly good in the current meta.

Honestly I think Beedrill is still fine in A since U-turn makes up for almost all of its faults besides maybe rocks weakness. All it needs to performs its role well is high Attack and Speed, which it obviously possesses. I might be a little biased because I commonly make volt turn teams, but there is almost nothing in the tier that is stopping Beedrill from doing its job. It's a momentum machine. It doesn't have the best capabilities of getting in, but it can makes its way in via voltturn or come in on some common stuff (mostly Florges). There's probably nothing scarier once inside than Beedrill since there's not much you can do to come out on top against it.

I'm forced to agree. While I don't think it's as high as 99%, Mega Beedrill will find itself utilizing the momentum switch, as it threatens a huge portion of the tier. I also don't think it's bias, but experience; u-turn teams benefited by the introduction of this mega, and it rightly deserves its A rank due to it's unique stat distribution, typing, and movepool.

 

[nv]

Here are my thoughts on all the mons aim brought up:

This thing, while it has a niche, it is a very good niche. VoltTurn is a really good team archetype at the moment and Mega Beedrill does this job best. Yes, it may be outclassed Mega-wise as Mega Aerodactyl is a faster Mega, but Beedrill has a STAB Adaptability-boosted U-turn which can hit even resists hard. While this thing has a rocks weakness and is very frail, it is able to get out of any unfavorable situation thanks to U-turn. However, while it has all this going for it, the metagame has also prepared for it with things like Bulky Itemless Crobat, Mega Aggron, and Tentacruel. Move to A- imo.

While I have never had experience with its Toxic Spikes set, I can attest to this thing's power. I was using this as a wallbreaker awhile back with Choice Specs and even resists are hit super hard by its Adaptability boosted STAB Draco Meteor. This thing's great typing is not only cool offensively but also defensively, resisting Heracross's STABs and Fighting spam in general while also 4x resisting Grass and resisting VoltTurn. I agree with moving this up to A-.

Meloetta is a great Pokemon that is very versatile, with sets ranging from SubCM to SpD to help stall beat out usual stallbreaker mons such as Reuniclus and Heracross. This versatility also means it has different checks and counters, meaning it can last well throughout the match. I feel this at least needs to move up to B as this more is very valuable to stall thanks to its access to Perish Song and it is a really good win-con thanks to its amazing bulk and decent Speed stat.

This panda is a cool mon as it has the awesome typing on Scrafty, but without all the rightfully deserved negative connotation, lol. While Heracross outclasses it as an overall physical attacker since Heracross has Guts to check status and Moxie to sweep, Pangoro has access to decent coverage options alongside decent STABs. Gunk Shot is a particularly good option as it allows it to get around the Fairies it should be scared of. I say B+ for this panda.

Ah this guy. Such a weird Pokemon, yet a really good one imo. The fact that it checks so many prominent threats such as Entei, Mienshao, and Heracross due to Intimidate and decent typing along with access to things like Destiny Bond, Toxic Spikes and Spikes, Thunder Wave and Taunt makes it a great utility mon that fits better than Tentacruel (although arguably Tentacruel is the best spinner atm so you have to go for spin support or utility support). I agree with moving this up to B.

This bulldog is one of my favorite Dragon checks. I also love how I made a very successful team with it. Besides that, the fact this can check non-Iron Tail Salamence alongside threatening it with a STAB Play Rough or crippling it with a Thunder Wave means it can check one of the top tier threats. Intimidate also really helps its bulk, allowing to threaten more Pokemon than it could with its otherwise average 90 / 75 / 60 bulk. With my bias, I would love to see this at B, but being reasonable I feel like B- is fine for this doggy.

 

[Tymano]

Thoughts on the current slate

Beedrill: A > A- or B+ Do not support: Although Beedrill has the defenses of a piece of wet paper, it's offensive presence is absolutely staggering due to its amazingly powerful 150 base attack, and is one of the meta's fastest threats, behind mega-Aero, which although can stop it in a heartbeat, it doesn't mean it's less useful because it still serves its purpose as a monster pivot that can get in, and go back out fast while having nice coverage in moves such as K-off, Drill Run, Poison Jab, and X-Scissor, as well as a boosting move in sworda dance. Plus its main playstyle, Volt-Turn, is an extremely good playstyle with few weaknesses that makes the Bee terrifying it has has hyperpowerful U-Turns that few mons like to take except maybe steelix, aggron, and rhyperior.
Dragalge: B+ > A- Support: Dragalge is honestely a monster in this metagame, with even unboosted stabs hitting a lot
Of things extremely hard, while packed with nice coverage moves such as scald, HPump, Fblast, and many others. Plus toxic apikes makes it easily one of the most reliable Tspikers in the tier, since it can actually hit stuff for massive damage.
Meloetta: B- > B or B+ Support: Meloetta is a really nice special attacker that can hit a lot while taking some Decent special hits. It's combination of high power normal and psychic stabs with good other options can make it a very good check to a lot in the meta.
Pangoro: B- > B or B+ Support: Pangoro is a nice pivot with a very high attack stat. Parting shot is a very nice pivotal move since it doesn't just give a way to freely switch out, but to punish the opponent by lowering its attack and spa stats. Plus it has a massive offensive move pool that it can abuse to its fullest extent.
Qwilfish: B- > B Support: Qwilfish is a pretty nice spiker that can force out Pokémon with intimidate and can throw up a destiny bond or a T-Wave to cripple the opponent.
Granbull: C > B- or B Do not support: Intimidate + Fairy might make it seem like a good wall, But its lack of non rest-talk recovery means that it can't switch in multiple times. Plus it us weak to several threats such as Suicune, the nidos, And pretty much every special attacker ever due to its abysmally low base 60 SpDef, and low base 45 speed does not compliment it as a base 75 defense wall. Imo, keep it where it is.

 

[Darvin]

I'm of two minds on Mega Beedrill. One the one hand, Mega Beedrill requires extensive team support to function. It's fragile so it needs help getting in, it's checked/countered by a bunch of high-profile threats and needs help beating them, it's stealth rock weak and desperately needs hazard control support. That doesn't sound like an A rank pokemon. And yet, this little guy has beautiful synergy with the very same pokemon that support it. Adaptability boosted u-turns wear down the enemy team even in the face of resistances and deliver momentum on a silver platter, momentum that allows Beedrill's teammates to do their job effectively. Once those checks are worn down, this thing threatens to sweep with its massive speed and massive attack power. Beedrill is the very heart and soul of his team archetype, and that does feel like A rank material. I'm not sure where that puts him, and I can see why there's disagreement. Overall, I have to weigh in on the A side of the debate: for all that massive amount of team support he may require, he pays it back to the team twice over.

Dragalge hits ludicrously hard, and if you're not a steel type those adaptability STAB's are utter nightmares to deal with. Even steel types have trouble due to his common Focus Blast and Scald coverage. His speed may be terrible, his bulk may be passable, he may be weak to common coverage (Ground and Ice in particular, limiting his ability to take advantage of his Fighting and Water resists), but I just keep looking back to the raw power this thing brings to bear and I can't help but think all those flaws don't matter compared against that sky-high damage. Toxic Spikes support and phasing just sweetens the deal. I think A- fits it well.

 

[Jirachee]

Here is my opinion on a few pokes hehe

- I think Sam 's post is very good so I won't try to repeat what he said, but I agree with him that Mega Beedrill should remain in A. The coolest thing about it is that it's one of the biggest Offense enabler in a tier that's usually not so friendly for it. I think a lot of offensive squads really appreciate having Beedrill because there's very little risk for using it with a pretty high reward. I think that other Volt Switch / U-turn users like Rotom-C being very good at the moment really helps Beedrill's viability because they can create volturn chains. Someone else mentioned that Protect being mandatory really sucks earlier, but I think it's not a wasted moveslot once you mega at all. Scouting what move a scarfer is going to use is very useful especially since Beedrill resists U-turn, discouraging stuff like Hydreigon and Mienshao from trying to predict your switch and gaining momentum.

- Agree with the raise! Spikes are very good and Qwilfish's typing + ability really helps it set them up. What I like the most about it is that a lot of Spikes abusers really hate Heracross and Qwils sets up on it. It also really punishes passive stuff while being defensive itself which is quite uncommon. I rarely ever find it to be useless, although its usefulness can be limited in some games.

haven't really used the other stuff on the list, so I won't comment.

 

[Christo]

Thoughts on the current slate


Granbull: C > B- or B Do not support: Intimidate + Fairy might make it seem like a good wall, But its lack of non rest-talk recovery means that it can't switch in multiple times. Plus it us weak to several threats such as Suicune, the nidos, And pretty much every special attacker ever due to its abysmally low base 60 SpDef, and low base 45 speed does not compliment it as a base 75 defense wall. Imo, keep it where it is.

Intimidate+ Fairy does make it a good wall, though. I think you should give it a try because it is a very reliable defensive wall and I think you are making these generalizations without using the mon. It being in C rank with ditto and such is absurd.

 

[radianthero156]

Beedrill: A > A- or B+
no. beedrill is still really fast, and incredibly hard to wall. i mean, it might not look since it cant rly do significant damage to steels like forretress/maggron/escavalier/etc, but u-turn is still doing like 20% to them, which stacks up REALLY fast with hazards. consider this scenario: i got rocks on your field; you send forretress vs my beedrill; you take 12% from sr + 20% from u-turn while i send like chandelure. next time forretress comes in it's already at like half hp. imo the bee is always useful; the only situation where beedrill does absolutely nothing is vs a really well played pursuit mega aerodactyl.

Dragalge: B+ > A-
agree. adapt-boosted draco meteor from a 252+ spa dragalge hits as hard as if the user had base 145 sp.atk (aka mega metagross atk). then it has adapt-boosted sludge wave/bomb to kill off fairies, and has focus blast for steels. however, it also packs toxic spikes, the broken move scald, resistances to common types in elec/fight/water/fire/grass/bug, and decent bulk.

Meloetta: B- > B or B+
havent ever used this mon, cant really form an opinion but pearl's points have been good (even though he's irrelevant)

Pangoro: B- > B or B+
idk, it sounds like a rly matchup based mon. destroys slow teams indeed but is absolutely worthless vs offense, plus we also have heracross which totally outclasses it imo (significantly faster, relatively better defensive typing, etc). i wouldn't move it up but i could be convinced otherwise.

Qwilfish: B- > B
agree as well. spikestacking is rly good rn due to the lack of good defoggers and spinners like toise/tenta/forre being easy to wear down due to no recovery. qwilfish's selling point over other forre/chesnaught/rade/etc is that it boasts the ability of pivoting against amazing threats like HERA/mienshao/GATR/etc

Granbull: C > B- or B
ehh could move up to b- i guess, since it's actually pretty good on stall, and feels weird to see it being ranked alongside all those RUs lol. still it's not really that good considering its spdef is so mediocre that it probably gets 2HKOed by scarf hydreigon's fire blast lol.

 

[Dratios]

I'm in full support of dropping Mega Bee to B+. I heard stories about how awesome it is, but it was super underwhelming. Crobat and Aerodactyl, Mega or not, laugh at it. Not to mention Mega Aggron (who imo is kinda underrated) completely sits on it. I think it's got too many checks and counters to stay A-ranked. Scarf Chandy, Forretress w/ Gyro Ball... the list goes on.

I'm also in support of moving up Dragalge to A-. The thing is crazy versatile. I surprised a bunch of opponents by running ResTalk, Dragon Tail, and Gunk Shot. There are so many viable sets it's ridiculous. You can run AV, Specs, Black Sludge... Heck, you could probably run Band and it would work. That's how insanely powerful Adaptability is.

 

[reachzero]

I haven't used Pangoro yet, so I'm not an expert, but what does it even switch in on? it has really weak defenses and a mediocre-at-best defensive typing. If I want to use a Pokemon that is giving me nothing defensively and is really hard to wall, why am I using this instead of Mienshao, Heracross, Infernape, Porygon-Z....

 

[Christo]

Mega Bee should for sure not move down. Mega Bee is using U-Turn 90% of the time making the Mentioned Aggron and Forry Get chipped away and leaving the player to gain free momentum into something that would force the Aggron, forry, etc to switch.

 

[Roseguardin]

I haven't used Pangoro yet, so I'm not an expert, but what does it even switch in on? it has really weak defenses and a mediocre-at-best defensive typing. If I want to use a Pokemon that is giving me nothing defensively and is really hard to wall, why am I using this instead of Mienshao, Heracross, Infernape, Porygon-Z....

mostly knock offs and fainted pokes/slow volt switch/uturn, but it's really limited.

 

[Magis4Life]

I like that Pangoro, on top of its great offensive STABs has access to gunk shot/iron head for coverage against fairies, but due to its meh bulk and slow speed, I find it to be more matchup dependent than the other fighting types like mienshao, heracross, etc. and struggles more with offense. It isn't completely bad against offense and having access to one of the most powerful knock offs is sweet, but I find B+ to be a little too high for it imo

 

[GULLY]

Going of what Jirachee said, Mega-Drill makes 9/10 offense teams better, it is a cleaner and a great pivot all in one and is something that can push a teams offensive synergy over the edge to become really threatening. Drill def isn't in the same tier of viability as those in B+ too, those mons are very niche and only are put on teams when they fit exactly. Drill is a top contender for many offense teams when building, that and its power and presence in game makes it A, A- at the lowest imo.

 

[DaSpoofy]

I like that Pangoro, on top of its great offensive STABs has access to gunk shot/iron head for coverage against fairies, but due to its meh bulk and slow speed, I find it to be more matchup dependent than the other fighting types like mienshao, heracross, etc. and struggles more with offense. It isn't completely bad against offense and having access to one of the most powerful knock offs is sweet, but I find B+ to be a little too high for it imo

What do you do with pangoro? The only time I see it is on OTR. Is it viable outside that. I know coverage is great but is it too slow to do anything?

 

[YABO]

What do you do with pangoro? The only time I see it is on OTR. Is it viable outside that. I know coverage is great but is it too slow to do anything?

Goro can run through a bunch of stall teams. As dodmen so graciously showed me awhile ago with my Shedinja team.
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