Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Not saying that M-Sceptile should move down, but using a ''If predicted properly'' argument is not fair when we all know it goes both ways, M-Sceptile is not really a problem in some offensive teams,by nature MChars,M-Altaria,Weavile,AV Raikou,Talonflame,Megagross,Clefable,etc. pose a problem to him, and those are just the ones on the top of my head.

Tough M-Sceptile still can put a lot of work if you don't carry an appropiate check(tough it still requires a decent amount of support.) and makes your opponent not being able to volt switch constantly and is immune to thunder waves,etc, B is good for him imo.
Well in retrospect, my point about prediction was unnecessary considering I was addressing the original poster's criticism that Sceptile wouldn't be able to abuse Lightningrod because of its frailty, and so the scenario assumes Sceptile has a +1 boost already and is facing the Electric user. In this scenario, Sceptile comes out on top of virtually all Electric types, and even many common users of Thunder Wave. Switching in is obviously not without risk, but the point was Sceptile does indeed make use of his ability.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I don't think that chansey should move down for the sheer fact that it is practically a staple on defensive teams (for obvious reasons). Throwing thunder wave onto it helps prevent it from being setup bait, and heal bell support can be invaluable. It still shuts down a ton of the meta (hence it being such a staple), and its incredible synergy with mons like skarm and quagsire makes it much less of a liability than is commonly suggested. It's definitely better than blissey, and while it is flawed (hence why it is in the b to begin with), b- is too low for such a meta-defining threat (so much so that many successful teams run a gothitelle set to specifically beat it).
 
As far as moving Chansey down, I think I could accept that idea, because despite being a Stall staple, I never find Chansey the big problem when I face a stall team. A significant number of the higher ranked offensive threats, if not Physical, usually have enough Physical power or utility to get around Chansey's meager Defense even with Eviolite.

The other thing is that Chansey is vulnerable to the most textbook definition of a Stallbreaker: Taunt/Sub + any form of decent (passive) damage. If Chansey gets Taunted, it essentially has one move it can use at all in Seismic Toss, and depending on what it's facing, it might not even be able to stop the Taunt user on the switch, such as Thundurus or Gliscor (when carrying Thunder Wave), and if it gets slapped with either Toxic or a Burn of any kind, it can't actually remain on the field to wall anything due to a lack of passive recovery, not to mention having to recover often if hazards are out.

Granted, breaking Chansey is tricky if you don't have either a Stallbreaker or some kind of Physical offense, but I'm not sure how much I'd say Chansey defines the meta, in the sense of making successful teams run Gothitelle for it specifically. With Azumarill, Weavile, and Bisharp all being relatively viable, among other things that have the option to use it for Utility such as Torn-T or Mega -Sableye, Chansey has to watch what it switches into, because losing Eviolite isn't impossible with how spammable Knock Off is just for the item removal utility.

I think of Chansey in a similar light to how I do Rotom-W on balance/offense; it's a pretty decent glue/blanket mon, but there's very few things it handles better than another mon on the playstyle could. Chansey is extremely susceptible to being worn down by hazards and repeated assaults, which requires it to frequently give up additional turns to keep itself healthy with Softboiled. Passiveness is something Stall has to move away from in order to survive the metagame's power creep, and Chansey is depending on raw bulk to survive rather than typing or any means of threatening/grabbing momentum.

Chansey could move down to B-. I certainly don't think Chansey can leave the B ranks though, be that up or down.
 
I don't think that chansey should move down for the sheer fact that it is practically a staple on defensive teams (for obvious reasons). Throwing thunder wave onto it helps prevent it from being setup bait, and heal bell support can be invaluable. It still shuts down a ton of the meta (hence it being such a staple), and its incredible synergy with mons like skarm and quagsire makes it much less of a liability than is commonly suggested. It's definitely better than blissey, and while it is flawed (hence why it is in the b to begin with), b- is too low for such a meta-defining threat (so much so that many successful teams run a gothitelle set to specifically beat it).
The overall value of passive defensive teams has been on a consistent decline, so your argument that Chansey is a staple on defensive teams is not necessarily the most valid argument. You would be better off that there is an increasing usage of Torn-T and Alakazam, both of which are relatively difficult for defensive teams to handle without Chansey.
 
I wouldn't call Chansey the best of Torn counters because, well...

Knock Off

Chansey likes to keep its Eviolite
I think using the term "counter" depends on exactly what definition you go with: Torn-T can only win 1 v 1 even after Knocking Off Eviolite with LO Superpower, but Knock Off does meet the "cripple to the point of being easily handled" criteria every time.
 

Martin

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I don't think Chansey is very good tbh. It just falls flat on its face in so many different scenarios that it is just kinda ridiculous; losing momentum in the current metagame is deadlier than it has ever been in singles in the past (all generations included) simply due to how much the current metagame relies on having the momentum in your favor (making passive teams less useful than in the past). Passive teams aren't often very good anymore, and Chansey very rarely works outside of said teams. Also, I'd just like to point out something. While, in theory, Chansey can happily run Thunder Wave or something else over Toxic, there are only a very small number of scenarios in which it is actually capable of doing so simply because of how reliant it is on Toxic to have any real impact v.s. 80% of teams simply because of the fact that Seismic Toss is easily abused by your opponent, while Chansey is a lot like Rotom-W in that, when building a team, you just naturally prepare for it. With a larger number of primarily special attackers running Knock Off, Superpower or Knock Off+Focus Blast, Chansey is just having a far harder time dealing with the things that it is supposed to deal with. This causes problems down the line and it means that a lot of the time it only checks what its meant to counter and it doesn't check what its meant to check. The metagame just isn't kind to Chansey in its current state, and it doesn't feel on the same level as anything in B anymore.
 
Chansey is far too passive to have anywhere close to the same level of impact it used to have. There are many OU threats that can severely dent it or render it useless. This, coupled with the fact that it can't really do anything to a majority of OU threats, makes it much less viable in the metagame.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I really can't see how you want to put Chansey in the same rank as other passive stuff like Mandibuzz, Gastrodon and only one subrank above Alomomola and Cresselia. The difference between Chansey and these pokemon is not only that it walls nearly every special attacker in the tier, but that it also can lay rocks, thunder wave and/or do a guaranteed 100 HP damage (scalds from mola and gastro are really weak) Chansey is still one of the few things for stall that can switch in against dangerous threats such as Zard Y, Dragalge and Volcarona. It beats Manaphy 1v1 without Rain Dance, it beats Gardevoir without Taunt and it can punish switchins with Thunder Wave or Toxic, or supporting the team with rocks, wish or heal bell. That are some niches none of the pokemon currently in B- and C+ can do. Of course it has some flaws but that's why it is B and not A. If you want to drop Chansey because it is too passive, also drop Alomomola to C, Cresselia to C and Mandibuzz to C+.
Also Blissey definitely has some niches over Chansey, hence why it is ranked in the first place, but you really don't need to exaggerate Blissey's team support in comparison to Chansey. Blissey fails to switch in against Mega Diancie, struggles with LO Alakazam (loses to Psyshock, always 3hkod by focus blast) loses to Serperior and Latios and those are a few pokemon that are pretty hard to beat for stall. Being less sand, hazards and knock off weak and being able to beat Gengar and ... (that's it?) is great, but the loss in bulk is really big. No doubt that Blissey is a viable pokemon, but in many situations Chansey is just better for the reasons listed above so putting them in the same rank would is a no for me (I would put Blissey 2 / 3 subranks below Chansey). Especially now Landorus-I is gone, which was one big reason to use Blissey > Chansey, I don't really see many reasons to use Blissey when you can use Chansey. Both are ranked fine.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I don't think Chansey is very good tbh. It just falls flat on its face in so many different scenarios that it is just kinda ridiculous; losing momentum in the current metagame is deadlier than it has ever been in singles in the past (all generations included) simply due to how much the current metagame relies on having the momentum in your favor (making passive teams less useful than in the past). Passive teams aren't often very good anymore, and Chansey very rarely works outside of said teams. Also, I'd just like to point out something. While, in theory, Chansey can happily run Thunder Wave or something else over Toxic, there are only a very small number of scenarios in which it is actually capable of doing so simply because of how reliant it is on Toxic to have any real impact v.s. 80% of teams simply because of the fact that Seismic Toss is easily abused by your opponent, while Chansey is a lot like Rotom-W in that, when building a team, you just naturally prepare for it. With a larger number of primarily special attackers running Knock Off, Superpower or Knock Off+Focus Blast, Chansey is just having a far harder time dealing with the things that it is supposed to deal with. This causes problems down the line and it means that a lot of the time it only checks what its meant to counter and it doesn't check what its meant to check. The metagame just isn't kind to Chansey in its current state, and it doesn't feel on the same level as anything in B anymore.
While this is true, I think you vastly underestimate the fact that Chansey's main goal on the team is more of a support role. I no longer run Chansey as a sole tank on an offensive team, but rather as a third part of a defensive core, think M-Venu+Starmie+Chansey. I like this style of play because of Chansey's vast supporting movepool, from Healing Wish, Normal Wish (which is like a full heal), Heal Bell, Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave. Although it is bulky, Chansey has made it to the B Rank mainly as a support mon that has merits as a tank. Although while we are on the topic I do believe Blissey to be better in a lot of scenarios since Knock Off is so prevalent in the current tier. The core I mentioned above allows M-Venu to absorb physical Fighting hits for Blissey anyway, and Blissey doesn't need Lefties as much as Chansey needs Eviolite. Although it really is up to personal preference, as Chansey does normally have better natural bulk, but I think it definitely doesn't need to fall.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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guys guys i think you have the wrong idea here. Imma rely on my best and only ginger friend IAmGingy here. Look at his wcop match. Or rather, his team. arcanine, sableye, tenta, skarm, chansey, cradily.
The cradily is curse cradily too. So i wouldn't exactly say his team is passive. And yet it has chansey. A passive pokemon in a pretty active team, by stall standards anyway.
In case this wasn't obvious, and I kind of feel stupid for having to point it out, but not every member of a stall team has to be "active." Inevitably, there will be a few passive pokemon on every good stall team. As long as you have a win con and a few other shit that can actually do damage with attacks and not rely entirely on status then its fine.

Unless you're running what the basedlord likes to call "hyperstall." That's a no-no.

I really can't see how you want to put Chansey in the same rank as other passive stuff like Mandibuzz, Gastrodon and only one subrank above Alomomola and Cresselia. The difference between Chansey and these pokemon is not only that it walls nearly every special attacker in the tier, but that it also can lay rocks, thunder wave and/or do a guaranteed 100 HP damage (scalds from mola and gastro are really weak) Chansey is still one of the few things for stall that can switch in against dangerous threats such as Zard Y, Dragalge and Volcarona. It beats Manaphy 1v1 without Rain Dance, it beats Gardevoir without Taunt and it can punish switchins with Thunder Wave or Toxic, or supporting the team with rocks, wish or heal bell. That are some niches none of the pokemon currently in B- and C+ can do. Of course it has some flaws but that's why it is B and not A. If you want to drop Chansey because it is too passive, also drop Alomomola to C, Cresselia to C and Mandibuzz to C+.
Also Blissey definitely has some niches over Chansey, hence why it is ranked in the first place, but you really don't need to exaggerate Blissey's team support in comparison to Chansey. Blissey fails to switch in against Mega Diancie, struggles with LO Alakazam (loses to Psyshock, always 3hkod by focus blast) loses to Serperior and Latios and those are a few pokemon that are pretty hard to beat for stall. Being less sand, hazards and knock off weak and being able to beat Gengar and ... (that's it?) is great, but the loss in bulk is really big. No doubt that Blissey is a viable pokemon, but in many situations Chansey is just better for the reasons listed above so putting them in the same rank would is a no for me (I would put Blissey 2 / 3 subranks below Chansey). Especially now Landorus-I is gone, which was one big reason to use Blissey > Chansey, I don't really see many reasons to use Blissey when you can use Chansey. Both are ranked fine.
Not sure why you're calling a mon that has 80 base speed with taunt+toxic that does a lot of its damage through foul play passive, and gastro wins games with curse/waterfall/eq/recover. They play nothing like cress and alomo.
 
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SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
what I don't understand is the argument of blissey having more offensive presence than chansey. like why mention that? 4mss oml
Because it does. Blissey's SpA is still terrible but it's at least better than base 35, allowing her to run Ice Beam or Shadow Ball to beat pokemon like Taunt Gliscor and Taunt Gengar. It is one of the main reasons to use Blissey over Chansey so that is why it should be mentioned.
 
EDIT: also why has there been 0 discussion about my Torn-T for S nom a few pages back? I would like to see what people think about that. It's definitely one of the best mons in the tier atm
I could see this happening for a few reasons. First, Torn-T has mostly reliable options outside of Hurricane. Heat Wave, Knock Off, Superpower and U-Turn all hit fairly reliably and this somewhat makes up for Hurricane's lesser accuracy. It's also got some some options to lure common checks like Icy Wind and Iron Tail. Second, most Torn-T checks are easily worn down. Add in Regenerator and Torn-T just outlasts most of its answers and from there it can clean up. Speed tier is great but everybody already knows that. Assault Vest is also one of the better blanket checks right now covering a ton of things that typically give balanced trouble (Gengar Serp and Keldeo to start). I think all these factors give Torn-T a legitimate case for rising to S in addition to the fact that it fits the definition of a "meta defining" threat. The biggest argument against it imo is that Hurricane is inconsistent but I see that as more of a small inconvenience instead of a huge limiting factor.
 

bludz

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Tornadus-T to S: Disagree
If this was going to S rank I kind of feel like it already would have. Now granted it is excellent against offense but there has been a major surge in Weavile usage lately which is a great check to all variants of Torn-T leading to Icicle Crash / Pursuit 50 50s if carrying Pursuit. Combine that with hatred for status and some of the things it is supposed to check actually end up luring it in (i.e. Glare Serperior) and just its general weakness to powerful physical priority and I don't see it as S rank. It's an amazing A+ mon and absolutely one of the best, splashable as all hell with a solid movepool but its mono typing is actually pretty lacking both defensively (where it's okay for tanking neutral hits but doesn't offer many valuable resistances) and offensively where flying is a good offensive typing for hitting things neutrally but lacks super effective coverage. Granted Torn can carry this coverage and it is rather unpredictable in that regard with great utility but I think it just falls short of S rank.

Kyurem-Black to A: Agree
Kyurem-Black actually has 0 counters. Clefable isn't taking Iron Heads (and even the standard spread has a chance to be 2HKO'd by Ice Beam), Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn can't take HP Fire that well and Scizor's BP actually fails to OHKO as well, with offensive variants only having a 50% to KO after SR assuming Kyu-B runs Mild. Anyway Kyu-B isn't switching into a whole lot but it's a decent electric check which is fairly valuable in this meta while actually having no safe switch-ins whatsoever when you consider that lesser used sets like Band or moves like Outrage actually just do a shit ton to fatmons like Mew that might otherwise switch in. It's weak to hazards and some common priority with a middling speed tier but ultimately its combination of bulk, power and coverage just makes it a formidable mon to deal with if it is granted a free switch.

Magnezone to A-: Agree
So yeah I mean there's something to be said for the momentum killing that happens when you Volt Switch into a ground type or allowing a free turn of setup after KOing a trapped steel with HP Fire but the upsides are greater right now. This thing handles basically all of Mega Altaria's checks and counters outside of Mega Venusaur and provides similar support for a lot of mons in a metagame filled with Skarmory and Mega Scizor. Ultimately its momentum killing problems can generally be worked around now that the tier has settled somewhat and people have discovered more ways to handle the setup mons that it gives free turns to. Talons are also spdef more often now meaning that Zone is actually a strong check to many variants whereas SD just smacks it. Pretty solid STAB combo and worthy of A- on the merit of the support it provides IMO

Another pokemon that I'm not going to make a nomination for but I am interested to hear about is Mega Latias. I am not going to say I believe it deserves a drop because I never really use it but I do think it's worth noting that one of the biggest reasons it became so popular was because of the overcentralization caused by Landorus-I which has now been banned. I have faced some Mega Latias Semi-Stall / Balance teams and they remain effective but have lost a niche and also have to fear Weavile more now. Granted it is still a great Zard Y counter but still vulnerable to pursuit tactics unlike Mega Altaria. I would very much like to hear the opinions of people who use Mega Latias more than I do.
 
Last I checked if Char X is already mega'd, it doesn't stomach Dragon Pulse lol what. If it's not mega, it can't switch in with rocks and probably gets a chunk from Dragon Pulse anyway. Altaria has to be mega to switch in as well, but that's not as pressuring I suppose, since Altaria doesn't have as big of a weakness to rocks and alla that. counter if mega, check if not mega'd in the match yet. Earthquake can chunk Raikou as well, and with prior damage Scep can win. Clefable on an offense team? ?_? Sounds decent but meh, it's more balance or stall... Megagross, yeah, that's fine, probably can take HP Fire and Earthquake so... good check I suppose. Weavile is only a revenge killer, which by nature, happens a lot with offensive teams when facing MSceppy. Talonflame, again, revenges, but it can switch in to some of its moves, so that's a good hard check as well, especially if SpDef. Char Y doesn't appreciate rocks up either but it a good switch in for Mega Sceptile, counter there, especially if SpDef Char Y.

Mega Sceptile has a problem with bulky walls, it's paired with things like Keldeo w/ Specs or Manaphy for that reason. It's in B, too, so it would require more support than our S/A mons, that's simply obvious. Mega Scep's best matchup is against offense, we should look upon its matchups against other styles but saying a bunch of stuff that checks Sceptile, most of them revenge killers and stuff, but seriously, Clef in offense? Were you saying as a check in general? Because your sentence structure made it look a little iffy... Yeah uh, if you weren't, then Clef is a good counter I suppose.
My point is that it will have problem in its job if at elast one of those mons comes in without hazards support or previous damage, something that is not the easiest of things to do because of the constant pressure offense puts, I said they are checks, not counters, of course if you ahve hazard support you can overcome them in certain cases or on switch but that is the case with a lot of mons sometimes.

Oh sorry about the Clef argument, I was just putting mons that check it without them being restricted to offense(tough i began with offense mons since those were the first to come to my mind), still counts as a point that M-Sceptile has quite a number of checks in different playstyles.

Also I agree M-Sceptile best matchup is against offense, that is why I wanted to point that even against its best matchup it can ahve a ahrd time if not supported properly, but even then it deserves to be in B rank because it can pull it off if it is.
 
Tornadus-T to S: Disagree
If this was going to S rank I kind of feel like it already would have.
There's two sides to this really. I mean we can see from usage stats that Torn-T increase is not a fad, and would be justified in not raising it until such point that it wouldn't be a rash decision. We have ~3 months of data that says that Torn-T is legit which is probably at minimum how long you want to wait. There's no harm in waiting and "correcting" it later. Unless you are implying that Torn-T has somehow already peaked in effectiveness which I don't really believe is true.

Now granted it is excellent against offense but there has been a major surge in Weavile usage lately which is a great check to all variants of Torn-T leading to Icicle Crash / Pursuit 50 50s if carrying Pursuit.
Great check? It can only switch in on Knock Off and I guess Taunt? It takes 60% from AV Hurricane at minimum. Weavile can only really revenge kill safely and definitely does not make you less Torn-T weak by any stretch of the imagination. Considering you have to sack a mon to get Weavile in, that means Torn-T has done its job in getting a kill. The Pursuit 50/50s should not even be considered tbh, considering the safe play (Torn-T eating the Pursuit) only results in around 40% net damage (0 HP EVs) and Pursuit is not mandatory on Weavile at all. That's pretty mediocre Pursuit damage and that's assuming the Weavile user predicts correctly. It also beats Serp anyways even if it is paraed outside of hax I think. Besides, everything can be lured. Char-X can lure Altaria with Iron Tail, does that mean we should drop Ataria from S? No.

I mean I'm not terribly for Torn-T to S, Halcyon was looking for some buzz about it so I provided it. I think it's the best mon in A+ and thus talking about it for S isn't too absurd. However, I would like to see better arguments against it than "if this was going to S rank I kind of feel like it already would have" as well as the implication that somehow having a common offensive revenge killer should prevent something from rising to S.
 
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Kyurem-Black to A: Agree
This thing has nothing that can switch into it. The combination of ice beam + fusion bolt + earth power is unresisted by every pokemon in existence - except Shedinja. That's 718/719 pokemon that take at least neutral damage. It can't switch into much, and is weak to many common attacking types (which is why it's not much much higher), but if it has a free switch, something dies.

EDIT: I'm a dingus who forgot that Teravolt bypasses Wonderguard. Even the almighty Shedinja succumbs to Kyurem-Black. That means nothing resists Kyurem-Black.
 
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bludz

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There's two sides to this really. I mean we can see from usage stats that Torn-T increase is not a fad, and would be justified in not raising it until such point that it wouldn't be a rash decision. We have ~3 months of data that says that Torn-T is legit which is probably at minimum how long you want to wait. There's no harm in waiting and "correcting" it later. Unless you are implying that Torn-T has somehow already peaked in effectiveness which I don't really believe is true.
I don't think it's a fad; I agree that it's one of the best mons in A+, but I don't know about the best. I would not say "Torn-T already peaked in effectiveness" implying it is on the decline, but I believe when it was first becoming popular it was a bit better because people were less prepared for it. I guess the reason I'm hesitant about Torn-T to S is I can't think of a reason it's gotten that much better since it arrived in A+ to provide the push.

Great check? It can only switch in on Knock Off and I guess Taunt? It takes 60% from AV Hurricane at minimum. Weavile can only really revenge kill safely and definitely does not make you less Torn-T weak by any stretch of the imagination. Considering you have to sack a mon to get Weavile in, that means Torn-T has done its job in getting a kill. The Pursuit 50/50s should not even be considered tbh, considering the safe play (Torn-T eating the Pursuit) only results in around 40% net damage (0 HP EVs) and Pursuit is not mandatory on Weavile at all. That's pretty mediocre Pursuit damage and that's assuming the Weavile user predicts correctly. It also beats Serp anyways even if it is paraed outside of hax I think. Besides, everything can be lured. Char-X can lure Altaria with Iron Tail, does that mean we should drop Ataria from S? No.
By "check" I was using this definition:

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

At the time I forgot that "check" noun and "checks" verb are used kinda differently so my bad about that misunderstanding. Yeah Weavile is not switching into Torn-T.

However Pursuit isn't to be dismissed totally since it does a lot if Torn switches out which most will if it hasn't been revealed. Also there are other methods for getting in -- double switches, voltturn and Weavile being able to eat up a Hurricane worst case scenario -- than sacking a mon and considering Torn is not an offensive monster like Landorus it doesn't necessarily get a kill in order for Weavile to get in.

AV Torn-T does beat Serp when para'd outside of hax but the paralysis still cripples its utility against a lot of other stuff which it relies on speed for. Iron Tail Zard X is pretty rare so I don't think that's a strong comparison to what I would consider a fairly common lure. But dropping Altaria from S is a different case than Torn-T rising: there has to be an argument for why it has gotten better than when it came to A+ or a reason it should have directly risen past A+ which I'm not seeing. I agree with many of the points brought forward regarding how good it is but is it really as dominant as the other S rank mons? I don't see anything to convince me of that.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
Kyurem-Black: Yeah, I use this thing so much and the power it brings to a team is ridiculous. I cannot think of a better wallbreaker, and I find that the scarf sets serve as a wincon as well (Ice Beam 4 Weakened targets = wincon). The immense power it can bring and STAB Ice attacks are ridiculous. Nothing can reliably switch in due to its ability to run coverage moves to get over his switch-ins which include Iron Head for Clef, HP Fire for Scizor variants and Ferro and Forry (I guess?). It's offensive presence is enormous on all teams and brings pressure just by being on the field. That said, Kyurem-B to A.

Magnezone: Oh My Jesus. I love this thing. I honestly have used this mon over and over again since BW2. It's ability to form a good core with almost every dragon in existence is spectacular and it removes Scizor and Skarm. It allows revenge killing on non-scarf variants of Excadrill (assuming you are running scarf yourself). And it kind of is like Gothitelle with better stats. I always run this alongside a dragon, whether it be Lati@s, Dragonite, Haxorus, Salamence, M-Alt, or whatever else you name it serves as a great check to the main mons that will stop them. Outside of the steel-trapping utility it provides, it also beats most fairies, can switch in on the fairy attack aimed at the dragon and finish it with a Flash Cannon. Granted it has a 1-shot potential kinda thing where it really only runs 1 set, but that set is just so effective I feel that it should move up.

Was just reading some posts and realized something. Scizor is B Rank... Wait what? CB Scizor is one of the most prominent revenge killers in the tier and its power is nothing to be scoffed at. Alongside the ability to use U-Turn to gain momentum, Scizor has access to one of the best Choice Band sets in the tier and its priority BP is almost unrivaled in power bar Talonflame. On top of this, Scizor can always run SD Iron Plate as a Mega/Band Bluff and if you run two mega-able (is that a word?) pokemon, Scizor can be used to bluff as M-Scizor considering M-Scizor is a prominent threat. Running it beside M-Latias, M-Gyarados or M-Alakazam can allow the other player to fear a win-con and keep them guessing in terms of sets. That said, I am nomming Scizor for B+
Seeing as nobody responded to this post earlier, I want to renom Scizor for B+. Torn-T should move up to S, I have used it quite a bit and found lots of success, and there have been so many reasons why I don't wanna just repeat them. However I do wanna bring up the wallbreaking potential of the LO set is pretty immense. I have also had success with Air Slash>Hurricane if you feel that consistency is an issue, You can also use Air Slash if you are feeling haxxy, Flinch is a god.


TL;DR: Kyurem-B A- -->A, Magnezone B+ -->A-, Scizor to B+, Tornadus A+ -->S
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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I would definitely say that Tornadus is as dominating as Clefable, albeit without as much history as a dominating mon. It's got the offensive presence, the defensive presence, the utility, the ability to outlast its counters, the splashable-factor, the speed, and the movepool. I guess, in my opinion, the combination of all the things Tornadus has going for it make it a clear contender for S rank. I find it is consistently effective in every match it is a part of, which cannot be said about things like Mega Metagross. Even if the opponent has a Pokemon like Mega Manectric, which is supposed to be a 100% counter to it, it is not difficult at all for Manectric to be worn down and Tornadus to remain healthy due to Regen+U-turn. This combination was a major reason it was banned in Gen V, since many of its counters were simply overwhelmed by constant LO Hurricanes. The same can be said of Torn today, except that now it has Knock Off to wear down stuff like Raikou and Rotom-W more easily, while giving up its 100% accurate Hurricanes. I truly believe Tornadus is as close to a perfect OU mon as we have outside of S rank right now. It has it all, and the only real downside to using it is the risk of 70% accurate Hurricane.
 
I'm no expert, but I would assume that with landorous out of OU, many more teams have room for Tornadus now as a special attacker. not saying that they're extremely similar, but that's probably why its usage has spiked, cause people are figuring out how good it is. I feel that it could be S-ranked (and definitely would if hurricane didn't miss so much!)
 
Torn isn't really S worthy. Clef sets up on it barring Iron Tail/Sludge Wave variants which are incredibly rare, Weavile, Lopunny, Manectric, Aerodactyl all outspeed and can OHKO (some after rocks). It's not really that bulky on the Physical side, and its hits aren't really strong enough to OHKO so many things - things like Altaria that can just set up on it.

And don't get me started on Hurricane. I literally miss more than 50% of those. That is fact, by that way, not confirmation bias- I counted over the course of 15 games in a row and landed 22 out of 46 Hurricanes. When something's strongest STAB is either really weak (Air Slash) or really innacurate, it's really really worrisome.

Furthermore, it's Rocks weak which means that even with Regenerator it struggles to heal up without a lot of team support, especially when you realise that it allows a choice of either Ferrothorn, Heatran or Garchomp to set rocks in its face depending on its coverage.

Obviously it's a great glue mon and easy to throw into teams but it's not good enough in my eyes.
 
If torn-t didn't have to rely on a 70% move to deal most of its damage, it would absolutely be S worthy. But this isnt a perfect world and torn has to rely on one of the most inconsistent moves, so it should stay at A+.
 
Quite frankly I don't see Tornadus-T doing anything that sets it a tier above its A+ peers. I think that when used to its full potential, it is an incredible and malleable Pokémon that can do a lot for its team. However, in response to Halcyon. 's assertion of it being as good as Clefable, I just don't see it. There's just no using Clefable poorly: she can play multiple roles with just one set, has movepool out the ass, utilizes both viable abilities beautifully with no downsides/ways to combat them outside of Skill Swap, as well as sports great typing.

Tornadus-T is shoehorned into specific roles/tasks on a team with a variety of limiting factors, be it inaccurate moves, inability to run every coverage move, SR weakness, typing that leaves a bit to be desired both offensively and defensively, susceptibility to status (a paralyzed Torn-T is especially often dead weight), lack of physical bulk, susceptibility to priority, the rise of Weavile and spookiness of Pursuit in general, or lack of recovery without being forced out. When you specialize Torn-T to get around checks and counters or target specific threats, you tend to lose out on more than when Clefable does the same. When checks and counters (or even things Torn is supposed to counter as evidenced by Glare Serp!) try to cripple or remove Torn-T, they are generally much more successful than when they attempt to do the same to Clefable.

Torn-T really does shine in terms of splashability, and it's there to do it's job very effectively in much the same way that other A+ ranked mons do. Yes there are multiple sets to run that catch different mons, but generally Clefable is the kind of glue that Torn-T, strong as it is, cannot hope to match.
 
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