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Damn! C- or D for Zard? That's kinda harsh considering it only slightly differs from Houndoom. It has better stats overall, an amazing ability in Solar Power 2HKOing basically everything that wants to switch in on it, and thanks to its fantastic coverage it can retaliate and knock out anything that does switch.
EDIT: I know Houndoom has Sucker Punch and Nasty Plot, but Zard doesn't really need to set up when Solar Power Fire Blast under the sun does THAT much.
I've also been toying around with a BellyZard set that can wreak havoc after a Salac berry boost, but I don't know if there's another BD user that does this job better.
Yeah Rocks are a bitch for Zard but, I don't think it belongs in D Rank. I'd say C+ or even B- is fair.
You're missing out on the point that with everyone and their grandmothers using Stealth Rock, Charizard wears itself down even more quickly, pretty much making it impossible to switch into any attack with sun and rocks up. Most physical sets are outclassed by Fletchinder, due to how powerful priority Acrobatics is and the fact that teams without a good physical wall or flying resist pretty much get demolished by it. Bellyzard seems super niche, honestly. So something like fletchinder who's more easily available to sweep just seems much better.
With the probability of it dropping being high, D Rank seems like the safest bet here.
Fletchinder cannot be compared AT ALL with Charizard as it serves a completely different role (Charizard is more of a niche wallbreaker while Fletchinder is a setup sweeper with acrobatics). Same with emboar and camerupt, which are both used for the raw power they gain with their abilities (reckless and sheer force, respectively). I'd moreso compare it to Typhlosion or Delphox, other two fast special oriented fire-types. And unlike typhlosion, who is completely outclassed by Delphox, Charizard at least has Solar Power to let it stand out. If you really want to compare charizard to something RU, you could say it's more of a poor man's Moltres (luckily, tres is already banned, but it fits the comparison much, much better than fletch, emboar, and camel). It's also pretty unfair to compare it with venusaur, since they each do their own things.
"Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time. The Pokemon in this rank are either extremely difficult to fit onto a team or have too many flaws that prevent them from excelling without a lot of support."
Like has been stated, its sole niche is as a wallbreaker on sun teams. It needs hazard removal (which is hard to fit onto sun teams without killing your momentum), and even then, it's going to be wearing itself down fast with Solar Power/Life Orb recoil.
As long as it's in RU, it should go no higher than D Rank, and if (or rather, when) it drops to NU, it should probably be unranked.
At the very most, Charizard should be C- rank, although I foresee it ending up in D rank. Houndoom outclasses Charizard as a Life Orb user because it has access to a means of setting up that doesn't slowly kill it. Flash Fire also packs a greater amount of general utility, giving it the ability to force things that are Choice-locked into a Fire-type move out, as well as a free boost if you predict correctly with it. Houndoom is also not hindered by Stealth Rock as greatly as Charizard and packs a greater amount of immediate power. Fletchinder outclasses Charizard as a physical sweeper in many ways due to the fact that it is actually more powerful in practice, being able to run an Adamant nature thanks to Gale Wings. Gale Wings also gives Fletchinder priority on Acrobatics and Roost, which Charizard misses out on.
It's got its niche in the form of Solar Power, but when your form of setting up restricts you from running either Air Slash / Solar Beam or Roost, you're severely constrained in terms of what you can deal with. Given how quickly Charizard is worn down by Solar Power recoil and the ubiquity of Stealth Rock, it requires more support than what is rational to function IMO. Full-blown sun teams that provide Sunny Day support restrict Charizard a little bit less, but good luck building one of those in the first place!
I've only used Swords Dance Venusaur with SD / Knock Off / Power Whip / Synthesis and Meadow Plate, but I've found that this set can be somewhat dangerous and difficult to switch into thanks to Venusaur's reasonable bulk, nice defensive typing, access to reliable recovery, and good Speed tier. I have heard whispers about the potency of a specially offensive LO set, however, so I'll probably give that a go. This apparent versatility and overall combination of admirable traits means I'd support it being placed in either A or A- rank.
Haven't used Manectric or Diancie so no comment. Fuck Imanalt's broken CroDiancie set, though.
I don't believe Charizard should be ranked, at least not for it's role on sun. Charizard's only "niche" on sun kicks in if Stealth Rock is not up. It forces sun to 100% need a hazard remover since Stealth Rock + Solar Power weaken it way too much, and sun is already pretty hard to fit Pokemon on to. A fire type wall breaker for sun is completely useless since Charizard only baits Rock types or Water types, and every relevant Chlorophyll Pokemon already beats these Pokemon. From my experience the fire type on sun is usually something that checks opposing fire types or offers immediate damage to steel types, and why use Charizard over something like Houndoom who can check psychic types for Victreebel/Venusaur and has more than one switch-in if Stealth Rock is up. A Scarf set is useless in a metagame where hyper offense has been murdered by this tiers obsession with Tyrantrum and most teams now carry a bulky water.
Other sets it can run are Swords Dance and Dragon Dance, all of which are forced to rely on Charizard's average bulk and major hazard weakness. It can't run Life Orb unless running Roost, forcing it to pick between beating water types like Slowking or Alomomola (both can recover off most the damage zard does through regen) or being hard walled by Rhyperior or Diancie anyway. Charizard is just way too weak and reliant on team support to actually work, therefore I don't think it should not be ranked at all.
Edit: I know it has to be ranked if RU, E rank doesn't really feel like a real rank to me. Obviously it should go there till it drops.
that being said, I think Charizard is D at the absolute highest, or even E rank material. As a sweeper on sun, Charizard is miserably outclassed by Venusaur and Victreebel [who we don't even have ranked for some reason.] and forces sun to run a spinner no matter what. If they don't, you're taking 50% from rocks, plus 12% from solar power, then 10% from life orb when you go to attack, and another 12% at the end of your turn. That's 84% of your HP gone before factoring an opponent's attack, and running a spinner on something as hyper offensive as sun kills your momentum. It's only other niches are swords dance, which Absol and the like to better, Dragon Dance, but I'd even rather use Tyrantrum with Dragon Dance, if at all, and BD + Salac, which is a huge issue on the already frail charizard. I guess Scarf sets can do something, but you're super weak to stealth rock, still take Solar Power damage, Charizard's inability to deal with most hits and massive weaknesses to hazards are icing on the cake. I'd love for it to not be ranked, and it'll be dropped next month hopefully, but for now just stick it in E rank and call it a day.
Next up are Venusaur and Victreebel. I can really only talk about these 2 in their roles on sun teams, because I've really only been playing sun for a while. [and yes, I did try Charizard. it was awful.] For some reason a lot of the PS chat roomers were saying Venusaur was a worse Victreebel. Why not use them together?
Outside of that, I think Venusaur is better than Victreebel. It has much more manageable bulk and is stronger, so in practice losing weather ball doesn't matter too much when you can set Growth up without fear of being OHKOed and whatever you'd use HP fire on would be OHKOed anyways. +2 Solar Beams obliterate just about anything that doesn't reliably resist it [which in practice, isn't much.], and most of the time whatever comes in doesn't want to take a +2 sludge bomb or +2 HP fire. This also applies to Victreebel, though Victreebel has Weather Ball instead of HP fire, and has fairly worse stats outside of physical attack. Venusaur also can be used outside of Sun teams, unlike Victreebel, giving it much higher viability.
if Venusaur had no use outside of sun teams, I'd say it would be B. Factoring in other sets like SD, and it goes to A rank in my books.
I think it's high time we got Vitreebel in C/C- rank. Sun's got quite a lot of power with Venusaur, and being able to have a second Venusaur is extremely helpful.
I keep seeing mention of Charizard using Life Orb, but you can literally run specs and 2hko literally every relevant non-immunity if rocks are up.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Sun: 165-194 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Air Slash ohko's both Flash Fire mons, too, and you're faster than the much more relevant one.
However, Kableye mentioned that it doesn't do a whole lot for sun teams, though I'd admit that destroying stall teams is worth considering. It's SD sets is sort of lame and weak, DD seems cute but it's got an anemic power level and requires a lot of support, and BD zard is way too real for me to ever try. I agree with D/E for it. The fact that it's pressured so badly by Diancie in addition to balance staples like Alomomoma and Slowking mean that it has no place outside of sun teams for the time being.
I really dont see a reason why we should rank Charizard higher than E in a tier sith Delphox (or even Typhlosion) since its niche on Sun teams is already tiny as it is, being stronger than those at the cost of taking 25% per turn pretty much, while Delphox is faster and gets Calm Mind, Trick, and a secondary STAB to hit Water types outside of sun (or a move like Grass Knot to have at least a tiny bit of use outside of Sun lol).
Been playing around with Venusaur for a while, and played against it, and it is definitely very effective. It's pretty effective offensively with a wide range of useful attacks on both sides of the attacking types, and has good speed with Sleep Powder. It is slightly faster than something like Victreebel, despite not having the same level of Physical attack.
On the other side of the ball, I can see a defensive set only going so far. Thanks to the bulk and typing it can be pretty decent, though wants to do a fair amount, and it feels a bit limited so far depending on what you pair with it.
What I like about it so far is that it is one of those effective Pokemon you can slap on something like Assault Vest and in this metagame, it's actually really good so far when the team calls for something like it. Given Knock Off can help remove the AV of others, Giga to recover and threaten the Waters and Grounds of the tier, having Sludge Bomb to scare stuff with Poison and a filler move like HP Fire (special way of hitting Durant, Escavalier, Zong without having to switch). Depending on what strength you play to Venusaur can be really awesome on a team so far. It feels better than B+ slightly, but no way I can fully go with solid A, so I'd have to say Venusaur is looking like a solid A- rank Pokemon with the rest of the group. Can be pretty frightening to much of the tier based on the set you use, but there's a lot that it fears as well, or something it lacks to get the job done.
Also been using some with Manectric, and like the obvious should be it's pretty effective. While being slower than Jolteon, it can do the multiple jobs that Jolteon can't do, that make using the Eeveelution really frustrating since Manectric has access to Flamethrower/Overheat, and can run an HP as well to cover the Ground types as it needs, so it can actually beat Steelix which is a plus bonus to me. It's pretty effective that I can get behind an A rank. Speed can be a bit hurtful now that Aero is back, Durant/Duggy/Sneasel is faster, and all with a lack of bulk priorities don't do it any real favors.
Can't comment on Charizard though because there's very little reason to consider it overall, as it needs a lot of support to realistically work. Like lots, but that's from spectating some matches, and when you can use Delphox over it, I don't see much of a reason to use it.
since there hasn't been much touching on diancie, and the what little discussion there was put it at s, im gonna step in n say that it's probably b, b minus material. ur reachin if you say it can do a bunch of things b.c everything sans defensive n maybe cm sets are mad thinly scoped in terms of where they can be effective; otr lacks the sustain, utility, or set malleability of somethin like slowking, tr support stuff is always iffy to me bc hard tr has maybe seen like 3-4 teams with any kinda noteworthy (ie tour, other notable "high level of play" scenarios) in the history of the move, let alone this tier, and lo just sounds like a really slow, not-as-bulky-as-you'd-want beater that struggles to perform basic tasks. so yeah, in that vein, it's an ok mon that can occasionally be neat, bein one of the better exploud / special fire / sigi checks, since high bp, pertinent stabs give it a level of activity in that role that not a lot of other mons can. but then it's still spike bait, kinda needs wish support, and throws off the conventional stall framework a bit, what w/bein a fight-neutral fairy. that's b minus material to me, and im an advocate of the dude.
both venu n manec dwindle in the a minus / b plus range for me, think folks are riding the new mon hype a bit more than is healthy. they're both strong adds, but I feel a lot of this is kinda vacuum-sealed. unless you're doubling game is badabing level, idt manec is tearing three teams nearly as well as folks let on, but w/e :l
since there hasn't been much touching on diancie, and the what little discussion there was put it at s, im gonna step in n say that it's probably b, b minus material. ur reachin if you say it can do a bunch of things b.c everything sans defensive n maybe cm sets are mad thinly scoped in terms of where they can be effective; otr lacks the sustain, utility, or set malleability of somethin like slowking, tr support stuff is always iffy to me bc hard tr has maybe seen like 3-4 teams with any kinda noteworthy (ie tour, other notable "high level of play" scenarios) in the history of the move, let alone this tier, and lo just sounds like a really slow, not-as-bulky-as-you'd-want beater that struggles to perform basic tasks. so yeah, in that vein, it's an ok mon that can occasionally be neat, bein one of the better exploud / special fire / sigi checks, since high bp, pertinent stabs give it a level of activity in that role that not a lot of other mons can. but then it's still spike bait, kinda needs wish support, and throws off the conventional stall framework a bit, what w/bein a fight-neutral fairy. that's b minus material to me, and im an advocate of the dude.
both venu n manec dwindle in the a minus / b plus range for me, think folks are riding the new mon hype a bit more than is healthy. they're both strong adds, but I feel a lot of this is kinda vacuum-sealed. unless you're doubling game is badabing level, idt manec is tearing three teams nearly as well as folks let on, but w/e :l
i'll let others defend diancie for A+, though i'm personally using the SpD dual stab SR + Heal Bell set and liking it quite a lot (RIP Cradily).
Venusaur, the main set is just LO Sludge / Leaf / Knock / Synthesis. It's a great stallbreaker that stall can use, that sustains itself, absorbs Tspikes, switches into tons of defensive mons and is very hard to switch into. It's fast enough to outspeed shit too. Really, Venusaur is a blast to use and incredibly effective, and that's just one of its sets ! ! ! ! A+
So, the general conclusion is that all the drops are somewhat viable and thats pretty cool. Now on the details
Diancie is a really neat addition to the tier and I agree it is pretty overhyped all things considered but come on, B- is absurdly unfair. Like, thats rough. I think offensive sets with this mon besides some specific cm variants are pretty mediocre and it has no business trying to go OTR, by those sets one could say it is a pretty eh mon but it cant be denied brings a mon that, while it literally invites any grass or steel type in the tier, the myriad of threats it can soft check that were (and still are) an absolute pain for balance (houndoom, sigilyph, exploud, etc) is absolutely huge, compressing important roles like stealth rock setter and heal bell user all in one if you need to. Now, the typing is a mixed bag having amazing resists but horrible common weaknesses, and while it goes really well with bulky water types, the grass types issue still prevails and is just not something one slappable and I wanted it to be in my experience. Definitely not A+, A is pushing it too far, would settle for A- or B+ personally. Pretty good compression, can get overwhelmed and wont do everything you want it to do so dont overhype it. Again, A-, lets settle with that.
Venusaur is really good, Ive been craving for a good not so niche grass/poison type for ages that bring important elements to a team like a mon that is a wallbreaker + absorb toxic spikes, a tangrowth switch-in for balance and bulky offense teams (switch-in as in cant just press leaf storm which is amazing) and having a really decent speed tier getting the jump on a good amount of mons like samurott, tyrantrum, exploud and company so this let it runs modest. My only issue is that, contrary to tangrowth which imo is its most direct competition in terms of what it can do, it can be pretty inconsistent in terms of wallbreaking since it is forced to press leaf storm to get past some stuff, and kind of needs to run synthesis on its sets to have survivability meaning you cant every mon you may want to (hp fire, knock off, giga drain, synthesis, leaf storm, sludge bomb etc), something tangrowth have the advantage on imo (no need to run recovery). As said, really good but has its shortcomings, really fun mon ngl, I feel A is an appropiate place for it.
Manectric is another fun mon that means you cant just use mega steelix to check electric types anymore but overall Im not too convinced about this mon being too stellar besides not inviting electric checks since it has less of an issue getting past them. While manectric has the huge advantage of having overheat, its speed tier leaves a lot to be desired since getting outspeed by mons like virizion and durant is a drag (seriously, is this mon had 110 speed, I wont even hesitate in thinking this is much better) and this mon is much more one dimensional. Running LO puts manectric is a serious timer since with this mon constant pivoting and potential hazards means it needs some support to be fully functional and it is shame having to run expert belt to circumvent that issue sacrificing damage output. And it is still a "pick your poison" situation with the hidden power :/ Solid mon, but needing support puts it on B+ to me.
Charizard is pretty straightforward. Only goes on sun, sd or ddance sets are functional but pretty lackluster and forces sun to run hazard control which is already annoying considering how niche sun is and how little teamslots it has to work around. Being perhaps the most powerful nuke I have seen in low tiers is just not enough. D rank cause Im convinced it is better than typhlosion :V
Diancie essentially counters several balance breakers (Exploud, Sigilyph, Delphox, Houndoom, Fletchinder, Manetric) unless they run somewhat gimmicky sets, and checks a few others (Meloetta, Sneasel) while being difficult for a lot of common offense and balance mons to switch into without using Toxic and offering Heal Bell support. It seems very similar to Poliwrath in terms of how many things it checks, how it loses to stuff it ""should"" check if they run random coverage moves, how its very reliant on team support, and how amazingly effective it is with that team support. However, Diancie also offers team support itself, and has offensive sets that don't make me cry at how weak they are. Diamond Storm is a hugely spammable attack as well. I think its A- and I think that's a low estimate.
Offensive sets, especially tank/OTR/AV, are useful to check offense breakers like Accelgor, Jolteon and Fletchinder and deters Tyrantrum from pressing dragon stab, which is a nice niche that offense teams are really desperate for. Rock Polish seems lame to me as an offense breaker because it can be otr, though. Lix has to be actively not running speed to outslow you so Camerupt, OTR Slowking (and I guess Cofagrigus) and no speed Escavalier are the only things to worry about being faster than.
Fighting types as a whole are very difficult to check in one slot to begin with and I don't think Diancie makes it that much more difficult. It's not like Aromatisse is a solid check to Virizion or Emboar, for example - it's just not a fighting check, in the same way Aromatisse isn't a fire check.
Diancie is easily one of the best mons in the tier in my opinion. It can fit on almost any playstyle with it's variety of sets, ranging from offensive Rock Polish/ Trick Room sets to Calm Mind to break stall, and even a defensive set with SR. It checks/counters a lot of mons, such as Exploud, Houndoom, Fletch, Sigilyph, those are just a few off the top of my head. it can threaten basically any playstyle, as OTR and RP threaten offense, CM sets threaten stall, and defensive sets don't really threaten teams, but it's still a great blanket check to a lot of things while also having a good support movepool with Stealth Rock and other moves such as Heal Bell. While it still has weaknesses, like it's 4x Steel weakness and other type disadvantages, but overall it's positives WAY outperform the negatives, and that is why I think Diancie should be ranked at A or A+. S might be an option in the near future, but right now it's pushing it.
Venusaur is a really great mon, as it's very splashable on offensive/bulky offense teams with it's offensive set, while also being useful defensively. It's like Tangrowth and Amoonguss had a baby, born with Guss' Grass/Poison typing, while having good offensive presence just like Tang, and having a good balance of bulk, and having the recessive gene known as "Not having Regenerator". Not having Regen doesn't really hold it back though, as it's typing, speed, and bulk combined with the offensive presence makes Venu a really great mon right now, A or A+ are good spots for it.
This guy should probably be ranked again. I know the presence of Diancie hurts its viability to an extent, but the amount of things it can check with an AV set is actually fairly large. With Vital Spirit, it is a pretty solid switch in annoying things like Venusaur and Amoonguss, as well as its pure Fire typing allows it to check plenty of things such as Abomasnow, Accelgor, Tangrowth, Houndoom, Rotom, and more. It's also kinda splashable as it can fit onto both balance and offense teams in need of a wallbreaker and Grass switch in, plus being a threat to both defensive and bulky balance teams thanks to its wide coverage, speed, and power. Also with the increasing usage in sun thanks to Venu and Zard, it also has a niche of being a good check to most Sun sweepers. Again, while Diancie is a hard check, it still feel Magmortar's niches in RU is enough to rank it, was thinking somewhere in C-/C, since it has more merits than the things in D imo.
Diancie is easily one of the best mons in the tier in my opinion. It can fit on almost any playstyle with it's variety of sets, ranging from offensive Rock Polish/ Trick Room sets to Calm Mind to break stall, and even a defensive set with SR. It checks/counters a lot of mons, such as Exploud, Houndoom, Fletch, Sigilyph, those are just a few off the top of my head. it can threaten basically any playstyle, as OTR and RP threaten offense, CM sets threaten stall, and defensive sets don't really threaten teams, but it's still a great blanket check to a lot of things while also having a good support movepool with Stealth Rock and other moves such as Heal Bell. While it still has weaknesses, like it's 4x Steel weakness and other type disadvantages, but overall it's positives WAY outperform the negatives, and that is why I think Diancie should be ranked at A or A+. S might be an option in the near future, but right now it's pushing it.
Venusaur is a really great mon, as it's very splashable on offensive/bulky offense teams with it's offensive set, while also being useful defensively. It's like Tangrowth and Amoonguss had a baby, born with Guss' Grass/Poison typing, while having good offensive presence just like Tang, and having a good balance of bulk, and having the recessive gene known as "Not having Regenerator". Not having Regen doesn't really hold it back though, as it's typing, speed, and bulk combined with the offensive presence makes Venu a really great mon right now, A or A+ are good spots for it.
But most Steel attacks are physical as seen by Durant, Escavalier, Steelix, Aggron, and Bronzong, so unless faced with the rare Magneton, that doesn't really matter.
So I've been using Kabutops quite a bit lately, and I think now it is time to rise the thing. It's really nice this meta, as it's a Water type that can take advantage of Fletch's existence and use him to set up Swords Dances. It's a really cool sweeper right now thanks to it's awesome Dual STABs and access to priority, as well as having a decent speed Stat that can be boosted if you go for Weak Armor as the ability. It's also a decent offensive spinner, especially for HO type of teams, which is pretty great if you ask me. It even enjoys the new drops a little, as it can stop Zard cold if it goes for Fire Blast or Air Slash and can also take a hit from Diancie if it needs to. While it's weaknesses, like being competed for for a slot by other Water-types like Samurott and Ludicolo, and Grass-types running rampant this meta, Kabutops is still a really cool mon and I think it should rise to B- or even B.
Magmortar: In a word, no. First off, Venusaur almost never runs Sleep Powder, but does usually run Knock Off. Without AV, you aren't checking Venusaur any time soon. Also, there's a reason that there's really only one good user of Assault Vest in RU (Eelektross) Magmortar is weak to rocks and vulnerable to every other type of entry hazard out there. Without reliable recovery, this is terrible for an AV user and pretty much means you HAVE to have hazard control. Sure, Magmortar can beat Water-types with Thunderbolt, but so can Delphox for the most part and it has a much higher Speed tier along with Calm Mind. The only reason I would ever come close to considering using Magmortar is if I needed a sleep blocker AND a Fire-type. And even then, I'd probably look into trying to fit Venusaur, Virizion, or Tangrowth on my team first and use Delphox, Emboar, or Houndoom as a Fire-type.
Wish I had more experience with Kabutops to talk about it.... rip me.
Magmortar: In a word, no. First off, Venusaur almost never runs Sleep Powder, but does usually run Knock Off. Without AV, you aren't checking Venusaur any time soon. Also, there's a reason that there's really only one good user of Assault Vest in RU (Eelektross) Magmortar is weak to rocks and vulnerable to every other type of entry hazard out there. Without reliable recovery, this is terrible for an AV user and pretty much means you HAVE to have hazard control. Sure, Magmortar can beat Water-types with Thunderbolt, but so can Delphox for the most part and it has a much higher Speed tier along with Calm Mind. The only reason I would ever come close to considering using Magmortar is if I needed a sleep blocker AND a Fire-type. And even then, I'd probably look into trying to fit Venusaur, Virizion, or Tangrowth on my team first and use Delphox, Emboar, or Houndoom as a Fire-type.
Wish I had more experience with Kabutops to talk about it.... rip me.
There is also Nails' special Early Bird Houndoom that is almost a Sleep Powder switch in and a Fire-type as well!
Anyways i wouldn't really use Magmortar over bulky Emboar any time soon since the latter is just a better Pokemon overall and its resist to Dark Pulse is a nice perk as well.
**Note: everything on the list, unless stated otherwise, is subject to change
updates:
Diancie added to A+
Venusaur added to A+
Manectric added to A-
Charizard added to C-
Tangrowth down to A
Houndoom down to A-
Jolteon down to B
Audino down to C+
Clawitzer down to C+
Banette (mega) down to C+
D rank is now the new E rank; as such, certain D rank Pokemon will be moved into various spots in the C ranks:
Ludicolo to C
Liepard to C-
Aurorus to C-
Scyther to C-
The reasons for this change was because D rank was relatively pointless when there was only 4-5 Pokemon there at any given time and if a Pokemon isn't good enough to be ranked C, then it shouldn't be ranked anyway.
Discussion points:
Garbodor up to C+ or stay in C
Xatu down to C or stay in C+
Torterra down to C or stay in C+
Weezing up to B- or stay in C+
Registeel down to C or stay in C+
Just so it's clear, "discussion points" are not required discussion, they just exist to get some conversation going in this thread. You're free to ignore these or give your attention, it's your prerogative.
We gotta pay attention to the lower ranks and clean up their placement, y´know. Nothing wrong with that.
Scrafty down to B+ is eh since it is pretty much better and more sustainable that most mons in B+ imo, and sharpedo isnt S by any means cause it needs more support than anything in S (basically needing pivoting to be able to switch into stuff, etc).
Will say something about the discussion points later on.
I think Registeel and Torterra should drop. Neither has really been effective much in the current meta despite having legitimate uses, because there's other similar mons who are typically just as, if not more, effective that fit a wider variety of teams. Set-up sweeper torterra sets lack the bulk to really make use of it's typing + access to synthesis, rocks has to decide if it wants synthesis or the ability to touch Fletchinder (and other flying types), and even if you have the perfect moveset for your matchup, it's just alright.
Registeel is very much overshadowed by Bronzong and Steelix right now, with it's biggest stand-out set being curse, which has been pretty bad for a while. Sure, it checks Exploud better than Bronzong or Steelix, but we also just got Diancie who has excellent synergy with other steels and does that just as well. Registeel's small niche has been almost entirely eroded, in my opinion.
I would like to see Xatu remain in C+ just because it completely redefines how people play, which is really nice. However, it's often overshadowed by Sigilyph and keeping rocks permanently off the field is progressively less important as we get more options for hazard removal. I'm confident that it could fit a good team, but I haven't seen it done in a while.
I don't think we should drop Scrafty right now since we had a meta shift that isn't really unfavorable to it that encouraged people to replace their Scrafty checks (fairies, tangrowth and amoonguss) with less reliable checks. This is the exact same situation that made Sharpedo moderately better, but I also wouldn't move Sharpedo right now, either, because, as Aldo said, it needs a lot more support than a lot of other mons. I do want to say that I think re-thinking Sharpedo as a wallbreaker, instead of a cleaner, gives a clearer idea of it's potential to be S rank, personally.
As to BB999's point, he didn't mention that the 80 speed tier got a little nicer with these drops, as SD Kabutops, unlike Samurott, does not outright lose to Venusaur. A lot of venusaur's I've seen and heard about are not running the full 80, but rather just enough to get the jump on adamant Samurott, which makes it even nicer.
I disagree with Registeel drop, shocker I know what sets regi apart from hhmm say zong is it actually can do stuff instead of just sit there / tr is cash tho Also you brought up a relevant curse set lol A set I enjoy using is chesto resto giving regi a 1-up n.n I find regi much more useful to teams and drop to C seems harsh idk about torterra rip
will edit later from comp with replays set etc. if this post doesnt get deleted rof
Garbodor: I don't think it should move up. While it is a decent spiker, there's more competition as a spiker in RU from Smeargle, Mega Glalie, Qwilfish, Ferroseed, and even Accelgor, and as a Toxic Spiker it faces competition with Roselia, Qwilfish [again], Drapion, and Smeargle. And when you're the worst of that group, [except for maybe Ferrosseed] that's an issue. On top of that, Garbodor is also weak to other common leads [Uxie/Mesprit] and is checked by a lot of top-tier threats, especially Slowking, who eats all of its attacks but Seed Bomb, and Flygon, who is only hit neutrally from Drain Punch and can Defog to remove all the hazards without taking any damage from Garbodor's spikes. Garbodor has too much competition, and doesn't do anything else but set up hazards and maybe switch into Diancie and/or Venusaur [Depending on the set, they both have ground moves, Earth Power and Earthquake, making Garbodor a very shaky check to either of them.], and can't take on certain team staples unless you drop toxic spikes to have Gunk Shot/Drain Punch/Seed Bomb, and without reliable recovery [and really, are you going to wish/pass to a spiker?] It's a decent Spiker, but I don't think it's as good as the other choices.
Xatu: Staying where it is for now. It forces you to rethink the game, and as a lead, it can spread status, set up hazards [indirectly], or sweep with CM. While none of these are super great, and it's sort of passive, it keeps Hazards off the field for the while, which, while getting slowly worse with more and more spinners, is a good thing for any team. I do think it'll eventually drop, but it has a niche that keeps it here.
Torterra: I'd like to see it stay where it is, but I can see it could drop.. It's fairly outclassed as a Rocker, even with Reliable recovery, and the 4x weakness to ice bites. But I do think SD Torterra has a niche.
(Torterra) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Crunch / Synthesis / Stone Edge
The idea of this set is to use Swords Dance to set up and sweep. Torterra has extremely hard-hitting dual STABs and options for massively wide coverage to add KO options [though I would personally pick Crunch to destroy Bronzong] Or Synthesis to keep it healthy. This set actually doesn't have many switch ins if you have the right coverage. [but since you can't run all the coverage moves, it has Durant Syndrome.]
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 409-484 (94.6 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not going to give it a ranking, but rather leave this here for all of you guys to talk about.
Weezing: Never used it, so no comment.
Registeel: Yeah, this should drop. The only set that isn't completely overshadowed is Curse, which is still fairly poor.
