Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

[Hopeee]

Garbodor to stay in C
Hmm, should stay C. Is kinda outclassed by Qwilfish, but at the same time does have a niche of beating grass types better than Qwil does. Also mono-poison is a pretty good typing right now.
Xatu down to C or stay in C+
Should also stay in C. Kinda has a niche as a magic bounce user, but in the long run most teams are better with a spinner/defogger. Could also move to C-
Torterra down to C or stay in C+
Torterra should tbh just be dropped from the VR. It hsd no considerable niche. It's also pretty much outclassed by Rhyperior as a rocker, and I don't feel that the SD set is that great. It's speed stat is pretty mediocre too. Also Durant Syndrome (As stated by Miyami above)
Weezing up to B- or stay in C+
This mon is so good. Should definitely move up. It beats so many physical attackers. Although it's kinda bopped by most neutral special attacks, it gets a niche in having one weakness. Also gets a niche in being a good user of Toxic Spikes and also gets WoW which is always nice
Registeel down to C or stay in C+
This mon really isn't that great anymore. With the introduction of Mlix, it really doesn't have much of a niche anymore. Also mono-steel isn't that great of a typing.

 

[Punchshroom]

BrandonBeast, the problem I have with Kabutops as a non-Rain attacker is its lackluster stat distribution. Its Speed tier lies within the gold standard for a wallbreaker, but it really struggles to OHKO a lot of walls unlike most of its wallbreaking brethren, meaning it does not put on as much pressure on bulkier builds. Against faster builds, its typing, poor HP, and low Special Defense grant it very little switch-in / setup opportunities overall, and is forced to just throw out unboosted Aqua Jets a majority of the time. It has two small niches in Rapid Spin and Weak Armor. However, not only would Rapid Spin occupy a moveslot that would otherwise better Kabutops's matchup against other playstyles, but Blastoise offers competition as an offensive spinner that is not as vulnerable to being revenge killed; Weak Armor on the other hand requires Kabutops to take a physical hit, and while Kabutops's physical Defense is respectable, its poor HP stat means it really shouldn't take hits in general, especially since priority and LO recoil in addition to the already sustained damage may cut its sweep short regardless. Kabutops only really excels in Rain as a Fletchinder answer, but outside of Rain you're better off using something like Aerodactyl (which handles the fast Fire-types better), Tyrantrum, or Rhyperior. If anything, Kabutops may even warrant a drop; Omastar occupies the same Rank as it, and not only does it occupy a similiar niche on Rain, it has greater versatility and use outside of Rain as well.

Literally the only thing Registeel doing in this meta is Curse + RestTalk, because anything else it wants to try leaves it heavily eclipsed by Bronzong or Mega Steelix. Even then, I can see its niches being stolen by Curse RestTalk Mega Steelix or SD RestTalk Escavalier, as both of them can act as wincons that offer similiar resists as Registeel, but the big difference is that they can strike back if they need to, whereas Registeel needs to boost to do any sort of meaningful damage, meaning it can be a safe, if not free switch-in to several potent threats. Sure it can handle powerful Grass-types like Venusaur and Mega Abomasnow, but if those two are you concerns then even a goddamn Calm Mind RestTalk Bronzong may be worth some consideration. It's not that hard to come up with Steel-type wincons these days folks >.>. Registeel faces far too much competition from anything it does, so it should drop to C, perhaps even lower.

On one hand, Torterra's Stealth Rock set didn't really get better, with its most solid niche still being a Rock resist with recovery (+ Stealth Rock, which is why you don't see this ranked as low as Gastrodon). On the other hand, offensive Torterra is looking a bit more appealing, as Venusaur's presence is keeping the likes of Tangrowth and Rotom-C, which resist its dual STABs, in check. While Mega Abomasnow still stands in its way, Dual Dance Torterra can now see a bit more of the limelight. This can stay in C+ imo.

Qwilfish has a lot more tools (Intimidate, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Scald, Ice Beam for Flygon) at its disposal and is generally more consistent as a result. The only real reason to consider this over Qwilfish is the additional Grass resist, but Garbo doesn't have a comfortable time switching into the likes of Tangrowth, Rotom-C, and Venusaur, not to mention Roselia handles all of those easier and can set up Spikes in Amoonguss's face. Even as an offensive Spiker, Garbodor gets outclassed by Accelgor, Mega Glalie, and Qwilfish yet again. In fact I am finding less and less reasons to even keep Garbodor ranked at all (and no, Aftermath alone is not cutting it).

I always felt B- Rank undermines Hitmontop's capabilities. While there's no doubt Blastoise is the more consistent spinner (doesn't get crippled by burn, better matchup against spinblockers and Qwilfish), outside of the spinning role Hitmontop actually has a more solid niche due to its typing + Intimidate, making it one of the best Dark and Rock checks in the tier. It still has a pretty decent matchup against most Stealth Rockers, and it can find spinning opportunities against the many Pokemon it checks, many more than the mons Blastoise can check well. With that said, Hitmontop has a far worse matchup against bulkier teams than Blastoise does against offensive teams, but B Rank would still represent Hitmontop pretty adequately.

 

[Kableye]

I feel like people are really underselling Garbodor. It's bad, but Garbodor is definitely not that bad. I've noticed is its being compared to Qwilfish, and there is no way Qwilfish is by any means a worthy comparison other than being both a spiker and poison type. Garbodor has over Qwilfish and other spikers:

-Grass resistance, meaning it can check Virizion, a Pokemon that balance often struggles with. This is honestly the biggest selling point of Garbodor.
-Hazard stacking teams typically prefer a spinner than a Defog user, and having a Pokemon that can afford to run Toxic Spikes that doesn't share a typing with arguably the best spinner is pretty important.
-The ability to run both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Omastar isn't that great as a hazard setter, though I have been interesting in trying to since it does have Ice Beam and beats most opposing Stealth Rock users, though Omastar obviously does not fit on an defensive build or run Toxic Spikes. Smeargle also doesn't fit defensive builds and doesn't run Toxic Spikes. Even Qwilfish can rarely fit Toxic Spikes in its movepool, because of Taunt, STAB and Thunder Wave being so necessary for its role. Roselia needs both its stabs and recovery. Garbodor actually switches into Fighting types, something Roselia cannot. Drapion doesn't fit Toxic Spikes on offensive sets really well, and also does not resist fighting.
-It's bulk and resistances: Garbodor doesn't compete at all with Smeargle, Accelgor, Mega Glalie or Ferroseed as it does completely different things. The first three are offensive setters, Ferroseed beats completely different Pokemon.

Garbodor is pretty weak to Flygon, but so is Qwilfish. Neither has recovery by the way, but Garbodor is more usable on fully defensive teams than Qwilfish is because of how situational of a check Qwilfish is to the things it beats. I reached my conclusion a long time ago that Garbodor should rise to C+.

 

[Lord Death Man]

BrandonBeast, the problem I have with Kabutops as a non-Rain attacker is its lackluster stat distribution. Its Speed tier lies within the gold standard for a wallbreaker, but it really struggles to OHKO a lot of walls unlike most of its wallbreaking brethren, meaning it does not put on as much pressure on bulkier builds. Against faster builds, its typing, poor HP, and low Special Defense grant it very little switch-in / setup opportunities overall, and is forced to just throw out unboosted Aqua Jets a majority of the time. It has two small niches in Rapid Spin and Weak Armor. However, not only would Rapid Spin occupy a moveslot that would otherwise better Kabutops's matchup against other playstyles, but Blastoise offers competition as an offensive spinner that is not as vulnerable to being revenge killed; Weak Armor on the other hand requires Kabutops to take a physical hit, and while Kabutops's physical Defense is respectable, its poor HP stat means it really shouldn't take hits in general, especially since priority and LO recoil in addition to the already sustained damage may cut its sweep short regardless. Kabutops only really excels in Rain as a Fletchinder answer, but outside of Rain you're better off using something like Aerodactyl (which handles the fast Fire-types better), Tyrantrum, or Rhyperior. If anything, Kabutops may even warrant a drop; Omastar occupies the same Rank as it, and not only does it occupy a similiar niche on Rain, it has greater versatility and use outside of Rain as well.

Other than Poli and Seis what common walls is SD tops struggling with? Waterfall/Stone Edge have great coverage and Stone Edge has highish base power, which lets it do stuff like potentially OHKO spdef Alomomola switch ins after rocks (if LO. If you're Lum you get to +4 and gg), beat Amoonguss and most Tangrowth, etc. The speed tier is a huge improvement over Samurotts, a very comparable wallbreaker sitting in A- (who obviously has it's own set of traits that set them apart, though I am of the personal opinion the special/mixed set is not doing well in this meta) as there are now two mons who have a very relevant speed tier above Rott. While it does have more trouble with Virizion than Samurott does, Kabutops beats Jellicent, who otherwise hard walls SD samurott. Aqua Jet is very relevant versus offensive teams when many carry fire types (or Aerodactyl) and the typing offers a Fletchinder check (which is massive for offensive teams, because you want multiple). It also forces Absol into a 50/50 if it wants to sucker or knock off, because Kabutops does a serious amount of damage back if they guess wrong. The ability to bluff rapid spin is pretty huge for Kabutops, as it means that ghosts become it's #1 switch in, which makes it much easier to set up with than it might otherwise be, as Kabutops can situationally beat every ghost except for Gourgeist's with grass stab (needs a lum berry to beat phys def Cofagrigus though, which is unfortunate).

Also Kabutops and Omastar aren't all that comparable because they struggle with very different sets of mons, as they're both completely different kinds of set-up sweepers.

 

[Miyami~~]

Fineonbae, there's 2 things that distinct Torterra from Rhyperior as a Rocker: The Grass Typing, meaning it can better switch into Ground, Fighting, and Water type attacks [and really, Those 3 types are great to have resistances to.] and Synthesis, giving it Reliable Recovery. I've also barely seen Rhyperior used as a Rocker [I always see RP + Weakness Policy, which does a Grand total of nothing most of the time]

Torterra has a niche in the same way Mawile does as a Rocker: It's a Rocker that isn't weak to common types other Rockers are [especially ground, Grass, and Fighting], and unlike Mawile, has access to Reliable recovery, unlike Mawile. Torterra can also be a Phaser with Roar, or even ditch Rocks and go Dual Dance [SD + RP].

Torterra has Niches, and things it does differently than other rockers as a rocker, similar to Mawile. It also has Reliable Recovery that isn't Rest [something very few other rockers have], and good, specialised Resistances, being the one of the few stealth rock users to not be weak to Ground, and being able to dish out some respectable damage without boosting. Grass and Ground are two very good types to have in general, and getting STAB on both of them is big. [even if it means an Awful 4x Ice Weakness, though Rhyperior is 4x weak to both water and grass.] I think Torterra should stay C+ as long as Mawile stays C+.

EDIT: 100th post hype! :D

 

[EonX]

Torterra: Torterra should definitely stay C+ rank. Being able to 1v1 Mega Steelix is absolutely amazing and the Stealth Rock tank set can also handle Scarf Tyrantrum pretty easily with ~70 Defense EVs (it's around there. Can't remember the exact number) Being able to beat two of the best Pokemon in the tier is a really huge boon for Torterra. Offensive sets have also gotten a pretty big buff with Venusaur becoming the premier tank Grass-type (neutral to EQ!) and Manectric driving Rotom-C usage down even further, thus allowing RP + SD to actually be viable now. The 4x Ice weakness and only average Special Defense (base 85 is by no means terrible, but not exactly amazing for such a slow mon) hold it back quite a bit, but it has enough to stay C+ imo.

Hitmontop: Fighting is honestly a pretty neat defensive typing in this meta. Being able to body Tyrantrum is really nice and Intimidate in general is really nice for physical attackers. It gives Spin support pretty reliably and is really nice for more defensive teams. My issue with it has never been its ability to check major threats, but rather its inability to prevent a lot of key offensive Pokemon from setting up on or throwing out a powerful STAB move against it. Uninvested base 95 Attack can only take you so far, even with a 120 BP STAB move. Fletchinder, Virizion (especially special sets) Venusaur, Diancie, Durant, and Sigilyph are just some of the top offensive threats that simply don't care about Close Combat and only Fletchinder and Diancie are remotely threatened by Toxic. And Diancie may even be packing Heal Bell. Considering none of these threats are easy to deal with at all (and have different checks / counters in general) I don't think Hitmontop should be above B- rank. It has a lot of great attributes to it, but I feel it just lets in too many high-level threats too easily to go higher.

Registeel: I'm almost inclined to ask for this to be dropped to C-, but I won't go that far yet. Registeel is extremely hard to warrant any use out of right now. Mega Steelix, Bronzong, Escavalier, and even Mawile are much better defensive Steel-types in this meta. Sure, it has the same base 150 defenses that Diancie has, but it's not doing any meaningful damage with those attacking stats and only 80 BP STAB moves. Registeel commonly has to resort to Seismic Toss to do any reliable damage, but all this does is invite just about any Pokemon imaginable, even those weak to Steel, to do whatever it wants. Curse RestTalk is done better by Mega Steelix and any defensive set is done better by Bronzong and Mawile since they can actually deal some sort of relevant damage to most Pokemon in the tier. It should drop to C rank at the very least.

 

[SilentVerse]

I feel like Registeel shouldn't be dropped maybe if only because it has access to Thunder Wave... Twave is super useful sometimes I think for dealing with mons like Sigilyph, since it lets you actually cripple them pretty much permanently (clerics are reasonably uncommon I think.). And I mean, while Registeel is 2340982 more times vulnerable to Dugtrio than Bronzong, it also isn't Pursuit weak, and considering how Escavalier is getting to be increasingly good nowadays imo (as Venusaur is super good), I think that could be worth something. It's not amazing for sure and has a lot of competition, but I can certainly see myself using it since it has some nice things going for it, on par with other things in the same tier maybe, so I'd hesitate to drop it.

 

[Punchshroom]

Other than Poli and Seis what common walls is SD tops struggling with? Waterfall/Stone Edge have great coverage and Stone Edge has highish base power, which lets it do stuff like potentially OHKO spdef Alomomola switch ins after rocks (if LO. If you're Lum you get to +4 and gg), beat Amoonguss and most Tangrowth, etc. The speed tier is a huge improvement over Samurotts, a very comparable wallbreaker sitting in A- (who obviously has it's own set of traits that set them apart, though I am of the personal opinion the special/mixed set is not doing well in this meta) as there are now two mons who have a very relevant speed tier above Rott. While it does have more trouble with Virizion than Samurott does, Kabutops beats Jellicent, who otherwise hard walls SD samurott. Aqua Jet is very relevant versus offensive teams when many carry fire types (or Aerodactyl) and the typing offers a Fletchinder check (which is massive for offensive teams, because you want multiple). It also forces Absol into a 50/50 if it wants to sucker or knock off, because Kabutops does a serious amount of damage back if they guess wrong. The ability to bluff rapid spin is pretty huge for Kabutops, as it means that ghosts become it's #1 switch in, which makes it much easier to set up with than it might otherwise be, as Kabutops can situationally beat every ghost except for Gourgeist's with grass stab (needs a lum berry to beat phys def Cofagrigus though, which is unfortunate).

If you can get your Kabutops to +2, then good for you, but Kabutops still has fewer setup opportunities than Samurott by virtue of its typing alone (most notably against Ground-types). This isn't even accounting the fact that Samurott can get more SD opportunities by bluffing the special set (which, idk about you, is still doing better than SD imo), which scares out things like healthy Mega Steelix and Tangrowth. There's even an inherent cost in deciding what item to run on Kabutops: Life Orb gives much OHKOing power but the recoil can still end Kabutops's run short, and I'm still a tad skeptical about Lum Berry on Kabutops as it only really improves the matchup against Alomo but doesn't help, if not worsen its other matchups. You could bluff Rapid Spin on Kabutops, but considering what Tops has to give up to even fit Spin on its moveset it hardly seems worth it, and most opponents usually don't expect Spin Tops either for fear of, you know, SD and try to prevent that instead. Also I compared Tops and Omastar for their niches on Rain, being primarily a Fletchinder stop. I may have bashed on Tops a bit much, but it still doesn't seems worth a rise to the B Ranks like BrandonBeast suggested.

I feel like Registeel shouldn't be dropped maybe if only because it has access to Thunder Wave... Twave is super useful sometimes I think for dealing with mons like Sigilyph, since it lets you actually cripple them pretty much permanently (clerics are reasonably uncommon I think.). And I mean, while Registeel is 2340982 more times vulnerable to Dugtrio than Bronzong, it also isn't Pursuit weak, and considering how Escavalier is getting to be increasingly good nowadays imo (as Venusaur is super good), I think that could be worth something. It's not amazing for sure and has a lot of competition, but I can certainly see myself using it since it has some nice things going for it, on par with other things in the same tier maybe, so I'd hesitate to drop it.

I mean from what it's worth, Aggron learns Thunder Wave too, and it has both offensive presence + Roar to not be the complete sitting duck that Registeel is known for. So far the one thing I can see going in Registeel's favor is that it is one of the only things in the tier that can wall Venusaur (the other being Golbat, but seeing where that ended up, it's not nearly enough).

 

[SilentVerse]

Are you actually being serious here or are you literally just trying to be antagonistic to make yourself look silly :?. I think the differences defensively between Aggron and Registeel are pretttty evident, so please stop trying to prove a point that literally doesn't exist. But I guess if you really don't know why Registeel makes Thunder Wave work while Aggron doesn't, then maybe the fact that Registeel doesn't immediately blow up to Focus Blast or Earthquake or the fact that Registeel can actually tank Venusaur Leaf Storm when Venusaur is like one of the best Pokeon in the metagame or the fact that Registeel can Stoss Ground types switches to deal a decent chunk of damage to them might make you realize why people run defensive Registeel and not Aggron. Your argument is literally about as useful as saying for what it's worth, Parasect has access to Spore and has offensive presence, so the only thing Amoonguss has going for it is Regenerator...

 

[tehy]

Are you actually being serious here or are you literally just trying to be antagonistic to make yourself look silly :?. I think the differences defensively between Aggron and Registeel are pretttty evident, so please stop trying to prove a point that literally doesn't exist. But I guess if you really don't know why Registeel makes Thunder Wave work while Aggron doesn't, then maybe the fact that Registeel doesn't immediately blow up to Focus Blast or Earthquake or the fact that Registeel can actually tank Venusaur Leaf Storm when Venusaur is like one of the best Pokeon in the metagame or the fact that Registeel can Stoss Ground types switches to deal a decent chunk of damage to them might make you realize why people run defensive Registeel and not Aggron. Your argument is literally about as useful as saying for what it's worth, Parasect has access to Spore and has offensive presence, so the only thing Amoonguss has going for it is Regenerator...

yeah puncher took the 'i'd rather use shitty x than shittier Y' a bit too far...slow your roll my dude

i think regi just isn't very good, it doesn't wall much, it's free switch-ins for dangerous grounds, it doesn't compress roles too well...still it's fat and I think it's got some solid threats it stops in m-aboma m-glalie exploud meloetta and checks tyrantrum too

think the other steels are encroaching on it more than just -badness- but i wouldn't mind seeing it stay

 

[Punchshroom]

Are you actually being serious here or are you literally just trying to be antagonistic to make yourself look silly :?. I think the differences defensively between Aggron and Registeel are pretttty evident, so please stop trying to prove a point that literally doesn't exist. But I guess if you really don't know why Registeel makes Thunder Wave work while Aggron doesn't, then maybe the fact that Registeel doesn't immediately blow up to Focus Blast or Earthquake or the fact that Registeel can actually tank Venusaur Leaf Storm when Venusaur is like one of the best Pokeon in the metagame or the fact that Registeel can Stoss Ground types switches to deal a decent chunk of damage to them might make you realize why people run defensive Registeel and not Aggron. Your argument is literally about as useful as saying for what it's worth, Parasect has access to Spore and has offensive presence, so the only thing Amoonguss has going for it is Regenerator...

I wouldn't be be so quick to jump to accusing others of being 'antagonistic' if these are the kind of responses you have to offer. I admit the TWave Aggron was me being a little flippant and I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful (though at least I brought up some niches Aggron offers that Registeel has always been known for lacking in comparison to the rest of the Steels, whereas your Parasect vs Amoonguss argument is actually irrelevant), but I already established my stance on Registeel's current most solid niche being the ability to wall Venusaur.

I also acknowledge that TWave is like one of the only reasons to even consider Registeel, but is that niche valuable enough to give up running the more effective Steel-types? You said: "Registeel is a TWave-using Steel-type that doesn't drop dead to Focus Blast and Earthquake, so that's why people use it over TWave Aggron". Alright, let's look at the list of Earthquake / Focus Blast Pokemon that Registeel would want to stay in against: off the top of my head I can think of Mega Abomasnow, Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Tyrantrum, and Meloetta. Already, Bronzong's Ground immunity, Fighting neutrality, and better offensive presence against the former 4 shows that TWave is not that much of a boon in comparison. Thunder Wave can be useful against Meloetta, but it's not a surefire way to stop it, in the event of switching into a Specs Focus Blast or just become setup fodder for SubCM + Focus Blast Meloetta. The obvious solution would be to add a Spiritomb, but even for the sake of role compression, Escavalier is still a much safer stop against Meloetta than Registeel is; it may not have Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock, but Escavalier not only handles itself pretty well against most of what Registeel wants to wall, but its Megahorn is strong enough against most TWave targets and can accomplish a similiar role in deterring switches, plus there are still better Stealth Rock users to consider before resorting to Registeel. Not to mention that Thunder Wave on Registeel was never really a particularly safe move to throw out in the first place, due to the potential free switch-in to Grounds, and even newcomer Manectric is not a friendly face either.

Tl;dr Thunder Wave still isn't enough of a reason to strongly justify Registeel over its Steel-type brethren; as far as I can see, stopping Venusaur is the only thing keeping it there, which, fortunately for Registeel, is a pretty big thing.

 

[SilentVerse]

How is Parasect vs Amoonguss actually irrelevant? Hello? Parasect can X-Scissor Psychic-types that can otherwise freely come in on Amoonguss. Clearly, Parasect is a mon that is FAR superior to Amoonguss. Amoonguss to D rank tbh.

Man I rly hate making hugeass posts on pkmn nowadays b/c it feels like when ppl write huge posts they're just trying to make themselves sound smart without adding a lot of content, but I guess you need t hings clearly laid out in front of you so w/e...

• Registeel isn't Dark or Ghost weak. It's also much bulkier. It's weak to Ground and Fighting type attacks. These are common coverage types, yes. So are Dark and Ghost. Sure, Ground and Fighting type attacks are probably more relevant coverage wise. That being said, there are certainly circumstances where not being Dark and Ghost weak is nice. For example, Registeel can actually deal adequately well with Sharpedo due to its neutrality to Dark, whereas Bronzong just gets shit on by Dark Pulse. Registeel also doesn't get boned by Pursuit. That's valuable.
  
• Registeel resists Bug. This means you can bring it in on Durant / Escavalier STABs in a pinch. This gives you more options since you can now switch to Registeel instead of your Poliwrath, and have your opponent double switch to Sigilyph. Twave lets Registeel deal with said Sigillyph far more effectively than most Steels as well. Sigilyph is a strong pkmn. This is noteworthy. Registeel can also Stoss Ground mons that want to switch into it, and chip away at em. This is nicer than Bronzong who does 0 dmg to them with its coverage move.
  
• Registeel still deals with a lot of things that Bronzong does reasonably well. Sure, it takes a good chunk from random Earthquakes or Focus Blasts. But I think that the options Registeel provides and its certain effectiveness against some mons (Sigilyph, Pedro,) makes it kinda nice.

tl;dr Registeel is probably a less safe option than Bronzong in a lot of circumstances due to its weaknesses to common coverage moves, but it also provides a decent amount of extra options defensively by virtue of its better stats and lack of a Psychic typing. Bronzong is obviously better a large portion of the time due to its safety, but Registeel is hardly a mon that lacks a niche. Also what's with this newfangled "role compression" term lol. Is it like the new hip thing to make ourselves seem smart at pkmns ?_?

 

[Punchshroom]

How is Parasect vs Amoonguss actually irrelevant? Hello? Parasect can X-Scissor Psychic-types that can otherwise freely come in on Amoonguss. Clearly, Parasect is a mon that is FAR superior to Amoonguss. Amoonguss to D rank tbh.

Man I rly hate making hugeass posts on pkmn nowadays b/c it feels like when ppl write huge posts they're just trying to make themselves sound smart without adding a lot of content, but I guess you need t hings clearly laid out in front of you so w/e...

So not only do I see you continue this argument which I was hoping to have put behind us, but you're still bringing the very sass that you criticize others of when they make their posts. I see you.

• Registeel isn't Dark or Ghost weak. It's also much bulkier. It's weak to Ground and Fighting type attacks. These are common coverage types, yes. So are Dark and Ghost. Sure, Ground and Fighting type attacks are probably more relevant coverage wise. That being said, there are certainly circumstances where not being Dark and Ghost weak is nice. For example, Registeel can actually deal adequately well with Sharpedo due to its neutrality to Dark, whereas Bronzong just gets shit on by Dark Pulse. Registeel also doesn't get boned by Pursuit. That's valuable.
  
• Registeel resists Bug. This means you can bring it in on Durant / Escavalier STABs in a pinch. This gives you more options since you can now switch to Registeel instead of your Poliwrath, and have your opponent double switch to Sigilyph. Twave lets Registeel deal with said Sigillyph far more effectively than most Steels as well. Sigilyph is a strong pkmn. This is noteworthy. Registeel can also Stoss Ground mons that want to switch into it, and chip away at em. This is nicer than Bronzong who does 0 dmg to them with its coverage move.
  
• Registeel still deals with a lot of things that Bronzong does reasonably well. Sure, it takes a good chunk from random Earthquakes or Focus Blasts. But I think that the options Registeel provides and its certain effectiveness against some mons (Sigilyph, Pedro,) makes it kinda nice.

So you managed to bring up Registeel's advantages over Bronzong. Perhaps you should've added more content to your argument, aka completing it, by comparing its advantages over Escavalier now (another mon I brought up in my post that competes with Registeel), because Escavalier still boasts all of these advantages you claim that Registeel has over Bronzong, and even boasts less vulnerability to Earthquake / Focus Blast. Escavalier struggles against Heat Wave Sigilyph sure, but the kind of teams Registeel is usually found on (super fat stall) fears Calm Mind + Flame Orb Sigilyph as well if not more, which Registeel fares poorly against.

tl;dr Registeel is probably a less safe option than Bronzong in a lot of circumstances due to its weaknesses to common coverage moves, but it also provides a decent amount of extra options defensively by virtue of its better stats and lack of a Psychic typing. Bronzong is obviously better a large portion of the time due to its safety, but Registeel is hardly a mon that lacks a niche. Also what's with this newfangled "role compression" term lol. Is it like the new hip thing to make ourselves seem smart at pkmns ?_?

It's one thing to make fun of 'jargon'; it's another to ridicule other people for it. I don't know if you're having a bad day or not, but is it really a reason to make snide remarks about this? I expected better.

If I may show you an example of 'role compression': You'd use Registeel over Bronzong because of those advantages you listed above, and yet you're using Registeel over Escavalier which shares those similiar advantages due to Registeel's Rock resistance + access to Stealth Rock. It's essentially the act of combining the best of two mon's niches into one, though from what I've seen throughout the many generations, that rarely works well (ex: putting entry hazard + hazard removal onto the same Pokemon); specialization is still key. Registeel here is no exception: it is usually worth more to use Escavalier + a Rock-resistant Stealth Rocker or Bronzong + a mon that resists Dark and Bug. As I've said many times: Registeel's biggest niche right now is stopping Venusaur, something few Steel-types or indeed Pokemon in the tier can boast. I've pretty much agreed that Registeel has a niche, but it's just so limited outside of that role.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Registeel also has far superior bulk compared to Bronzong and far superior special bulk compared to steelix in exchange for drastically less physical bulk. Now you can respond to random special attackers by paralyzing them in the middle of a sweep like Omastar or flat out attacking Abomsnow.

You also save a mega slot which is useful if you want possible defensive Megas like Audino or camerupt on your stall.

As a stall player I can tell you we generally have to keep in mind pursuit weaknesses lest we autolose versus pursuit plus Abomasnow if our only counter to Abomsnow is bronzong. Trading the pursuit weakness for a Dugtrio trap is generally an advantage since pursuit is overall more common.

I don't think you need to explain what role compression means by the way it's just annoying to read this stuff when you've played for many years with the same concepts but nobody ever before needed to make themselves elitists asses via their language. Personally I'm most annoyed by "speed control" and "hazard control" but I don't recall you using those phrases yet so kudos to you :]

Also AV amoonguss is a good switch in to Venusaur so yeah don't oversell Registeel by saying only it and Golbat are switch ins!

 

[Hopeee]

Would like to state first off that throughout this response I will be comparing Registeel to it's main competition in the tier, Bronzong.

Registeel also has far superior bulk compared to Bronzong and far superior special bulk compared to steelix in exchange for drastically less physical bulk. Now you can respond to random special attackers by paralyzing them in the middle of a sweep like Omastar or flat out attacking Abomsnow.

Here's the problem with that. Bronzong is usually much better at checking special attackers because it isn't as weak to coverage moves such as Focus Blast, allowing it to switch into stuff such as Accelgor, Meloetta, and Abomasnow (as you stated above). Also Bronzong can Toxic them so I don't really see your point. Also please clarify what attack Registeel would be using against Abomasnow anyways. Don't forget Abomasnow can still go for Earthquake and Focus Blast against Registeel. And if you're using Registeel on stall, wouldn't Toxic > Thunder Wave for residual damage? Also, stats don't really matter that much when something has a fantastic ability/typing. Look at Mawile for example.

You also save a mega slot which is useful if you want possible defensive Megas like Audino or camerupt on your stall.

As a stall player I can tell you we generally have to keep in mind pursuit weaknesses lest we autolose versus pursuit plus Abomasnow if our only counter to Abomsnow is bronzong. Trading the pursuit weakness for a Dugtrio trap is generally an advantage since pursuit is overall more common.

You do realize that Bronzong is a better switch-in versus Abomasnow right? Also most stall players have at least 1 counter to Abomasnow and something like a check to it so most of the time it isn't that big a deal. And btw it isn't just the lack of being trapped by Dugtrio that causes Bronzong to be superior to Registeel. It's the fact that it beats Mega-Steelix. Also, if you're such a great stall player you should be able to predict the Houndoom switch-in. If you don't, WishPass back into Bronzong later in the game. Also it's a matter of would you rather beat a bunch of EQ users + Mel + Abomasnow? Or face the few pursuit trappers in the tier. Let's be real, there aren't that many.

I don't think you need to explain what role compression means by the way it's just annoying to read this stuff when you've played for many years with the same concepts but nobody ever before needed to make themselves elitists asses via their language. Personally I'm most annoyed by "speed control" and "hazard control" but I don't recall you using those phrases yet so kudos to you :]

Also AV amoonguss is a good switch in to Venusaur so yeah don't oversell Registeel by saying only it and Golbat are switch ins!

Grats to you,! You've played for many years, yet you still think AV Amoonguss is good? Are you shitting me? If you're being sarcastic you're very bad at it. Anyways I guess I'll address the substance of your argument, however little there is. Stop acting all high and mighty. We don't give a crap what phrases "annoy" you. Okay, and btw no one understood what you meant about your rant over "speed control" and "hazard control". And don't you think that you yourself are acting like an "elitist ass" by saying that? Idk. Anyways I think this response reinforces where Registeel should stay.

Also wondering why this thread has gone to shit over the last few posts lol

 

[pokemonisfun]

Look I know I have a strange username and some people think I'm a troll which is unfortunate but everything I post I do stand by 100% unless otherwise stated.

My overall point is that Registeel is being compared to more than just Bronzong, it also has to compare to Steelix mega and Escavalier and apparently according the rankings Regular Steelix lol.

Obviously Registeel can handle special attackers better than Steelix but even Bronzong and Escavalier it compares reasonably with. Not only does the attacker have to predict the Focus Blast they also have to not miss and if you're using a typical stall you're going to have a team full of bulky mons so it's not exactly risk free to throw out coverage moves. With wish support and Abomsnow often running hidden power fire it's not hard to understand why Registeel is still nearly as good in the special defense department while adequately making up with increased physical bulk.

Registeel would be using iron head against Abomsnow for a 3hko or 2hko with sr. Always can go for the flinch too!

Beating mega steelix should not be a concern for stall bar curse set which Bronzong loses to anyways.

I'm also not just a great stall player FYI I'm probably the best in smogons history and the best one active for sure just to clear that up.

You're ridiculous if you think constant double switching is a viable consistent strategy to beat pursuit users especially as that implies said pursuit weak mon gets no chance to do anything.

AV amoonguss is great on stall since spore is generally not as useful if you can't abuse the free turns with set up/threatening mons. Doing something like sleeping a sigilyph is not too helpful since it will just sweep you later. AV and regen lets you counter big threats like Omastar and Manectric and your physical bulk means you still counter Hitmonlee. Really I'd only qualify my statement in amoonguss by saying I never thought of that set. You can keep your important utility moves like Clear Smog and Sludge Bomb (scaldesque) and Foul Play.

If you think Abomsnow is easy to counter on stall I then ask for your help because I could use it since I think it's difficult to counter.

And lastly no I am not elitist I am a man of the people. I have taken unpopular positions like banning stealth rock because I care not for silly badges and I refuse to vote in suspects despite qualifying for them as a I refuse to participate in the shadow democracy controlled by smogons administration. For instance you feel like you have power by voting but in reality you do not get to choose how many suspect ladders there are, what the suspect is, what the voting majority needs to be, how long the suspect goes on, who gets to delete posts in the np thread, and most importantly the basis of ru and tiers by usage itself (why 3.4% to determine OU or why determine average of seeing it once every 20 ladder games?).

As I said I stand by my poss 100% but if you have any further questions I am sure you will post and I will answer!

 

[Punchshroom]

hilarious

also save a mega slot which is useful if you want possible defensive Megas like Audino or camerupt

you know, I made the comparison of Registeel to Bronzong and Escavalier not only because I acknowledge that Mega Steelix walls enough different stuff to be differentiated, but also to avoid the issue of 'Mega opportunity cost' being brought up, so...

Edit:

Is there a rule against bringing up mega opportunity cost Punchshroom

No I mean I didn't want people to start bringing up arguments like Registeel not costing the Mega slot when Zong and Esca also don't anyway

Also AV amoonguss is a good switch in to Venusaur so yeah don't oversell Registeel by saying only it and Golbat are switch ins!

I'll admit to being unfamiliar to AV Amoonguss's spread, but if it is not heavily invested into offense, it will still struggle to 1v1 Venusaur and get forced out to Regen (where's your switch-in then?). Even if AV Amoonguss does invest offensively, it risks faring worse against Knock Off Venusaur variants. Also, overselling Registeel is the last thing I'm doing :/

My overall point is that Registeel is being compared to more than just Bronzong, it also has to compare to Steelix mega and Escavalier and apparently according the rankings Regular Steelix lol.

Fyi, Steelix is ranked for its Custap Berry Explosion set, which fits on offense better than Mega Steelix; it's not competing with Registeel at all (like how Magneton isn't).

Anyway these past couple of posts (some of mine included, admittedly) have been laced with hostility so I'm just gonna refrain from posting here again until this blows over.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Is there a rule against bringing up mega opportunity cost Punchshroom

Lol did not know about steelix good to know I guess

The whole AV amoon doesn't always beat venue by itself but with team support its often a free pivot to weaken venu via life orb and leaf storm drops. If ur other moms are all geodudes then yeah you're in trouble but realistically combined with like mega steelix (lol) then you have a near death grip on venu

 

[Miyami~~]

Is there a rule against bringing up mega opportunity cost Punchshroom

Lol did not know about steelix good to know I guess

The whole AV amoon doesn't always beat venue by itself but with team support its often a free pivot to weaken venu via life orb and leaf storm drops. If ur other moms are all geodudes then yeah you're in trouble but realistically combined with like mega steelix (lol) then you have a near death grip on venu

The question then becomes this: Why on earth would anyone use AV Amoonguss over any of Amoonguss' other sets? Unless you're that concerned about Venusaur to forgo Spore and Synthesis.

 

[Lord Death Man]

The question then becomes this: Why on earth would anyone use AV Amoonguss over any of Amoonguss' other sets? Unless you're that concerned about Venusaur to forgo Spore and Synthesis.

Essentially, Spore isn't that big of deal for stall, and synthesis isn't always used on Amoon to begin with, especially if you have team support. I don't fully agree, but I think that's what he's getting at.

If you can get your Kabutops to +2, then good for you, but Kabutops still has fewer setup opportunities than Samurott by virtue of its typing alone (most notably against Ground-types). This isn't even accounting the fact that Samurott can get more SD opportunities by bluffing the special set (which, idk about you, is still doing better than SD imo), which scares out things like healthy Mega Steelix and Tangrowth. There's even an inherent cost in deciding what item to run on Kabutops: Life Orb gives much OHKOing power but the recoil can still end Kabutops's run short, and I'm still a tad skeptical about Lum Berry on Kabutops as it only really improves the matchup against Alomo but doesn't help, if not worsen its other matchups. You could bluff Rapid Spin on Kabutops, but considering what Tops has to give up to even fit Spin on its moveset it hardly seems worth it, and most opponents usually don't expect Spin Tops either for fear of, you know, SD and try to prevent that instead. Also I compared Tops and Omastar for their niches on Rain, being primarily a Fletchinder stop. I may have bashed on Tops a bit much, but it still doesn't seems worth a rise to the B Ranks like BrandonBeast suggested.

SD Tops is incredibly rare, especially compared to spin, so I'm not sure why people would be preparing for the much less common set when making moves unless they were scared of it. Lum also eases matchup versus Slowking, Jellicent, Fletchinder, Togetic, Druddigon, the rare Golbat, Qwilfish, Flame Orb CM Sigilyph, and Uxie, which can make it a worthwhile choice. Life Orb puts you at a wide power increase over Samurott, gaining notable KOs on Jolteon and Manectric with +2 Aqua Jet and putting them within Fletchinder range after stealth rocks and an unboosted Aqua Jet. This dilemma is notably just as present in Samurott, with essentially the same group of "I can set up on this now", except a +2/+4 Kabutops is much more threatening than a +2/+4 Samurott by virtue of it's higher power, stronger coverage move, and higher speed.

And it's not like I'm saying Kabutops is better than Samurott - I'm supporting a rise to an entire rank, 3 subranks, below Samurott because I acknowledge SD Rott is often more effective against balance teams. I'm also not really convinced bluffing Samurott's special set is a reasonable argument, as Rott has always skewed heavily in favor of SD and, since Sharpedo dropped, that has increased greatly (roughly 83% are swords dance in 1760 usage now). I think it'd be more reasonable to argue that Samurott's special set is good because you can bluff the SD set than vice versa, and even that's a hard sell in this meta environment.

 

[termi]

I'm also not just a great stall player FYI I'm probably the best in smogons history and the best one active for sure just to clear that up.

thanks for your valuable opinion, totally free of arrogance and delusion, but I don't think anyone asked who's the best stall player around.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Swellow: Unranked to C: A glasscanon Scarf Exploud with a bit extra damage and U-Turn. That's the resume. I'll try to bring some replays later on but right now I feel Swellow Specs deserves a rank. 210 base attack from 297 Special Attack hits a lot picking the 2hko on Tyrantrum and Amoonguss after Rocks. Heat Wave and HP Water lures down Steelix, Bronzong, Rhyperior or Aggron, as Air Slash does not really do anything but picking the OHKO on Virizion when Boomburst gets the 2HKO 80% of the time without rocks. Needs support vs Scarfers and priority but still can work pretty well.

Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 145-171 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO (no SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 204-241 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 112-134 (33.1 - 39.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Hidden Power Water vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 186-222 (42.9 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Lord Death Man]

ok i have a real nomination no derail tho

I think Hitmontop could move up to B. I've found myself using this considerably more that I ever have (which means I'm actually using it) for one reason - it has great defensive synergy with Diancie. The main problem Diancie seems to have is that quite a few dark types, which it wants to check, have ways to get around it - Scrafty has Iron Head, Absol has Iron Tail, Sharpedo has water STABs (which Top does nothing about but I'll get to that), and Drapion has access to Aqua Tail/Earthquake and is a terrifying threat. Most of these mons have a way around Hitmontop, too, but they don't have the moveslots to reasonably cover top. While Blastoise is getting a lot of the spotlight as a spinner, Top's higher physical bulk on switch in due to Intimidate, ability to check a completely different set of mons, and better type synergy with the Alomomola-Diancie-Steel cores makes me feel it might be due for a rise. While Close Combat is not as threatening as scald to many common rocks setters, it's still often enough to keep things in check and has roughly the same matchup versus Seismitoad.

At the very least, I think I would place it as on-par with Uxie, Granbull, and Quagsire in terms of being a somewhat disappointing defensive mon with a clear niche that can't be replicated. And I do think it's better than Granbull.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I could definitely go for this thing rising, mostly due to its ability to check almost any physical attacker without a psychic type move. Furthermore, it can check Venusaur in sun and KO it with a sun boosted flamethrower, which is actually really cool. It also has the ability to set up toxic spikes on Diance without fearing earth power, unlike similar poison types such as garbodor. Will-O-wisp is obviously an awesome option to not only cripple physical attackers, but wear down walls like golbat and Alomamola to give wallbreakers and sweepers quite a bit more wiggle room. I suppose lack of reliable recovery is a problem, but there are a host of solid wish users in RU that has nice synergy with weezing, like Alomamola and Aromatisse. There's just so much in the tier that it can wall or set up on like Durant, Escavilier, Mega Steelix, Flygon, and Hitmonlee that makes it a really solid choice if you need a Toxic Spikes setter or just a blanket check to a ton of lethal physical attackers.

I can also get behind the rise of Hitmontop, the ranking of Swellow, and the Registeel drop.

 

[Miyami~~]

You know, I'm against Swellow being ranked at all. I played against it with a Venusaur at 51% health, and it did all of 45% with boomburst and then ate a sludge bomb. Hurray! The thing is, while fast Boomburst seems cool, reliably 2HKOing doesn't matter when you don't have the bulk to stick around to snag the 2HKO in the first place. 60/60/50 bulk is TERRIBLE across all costs, without even factoring the SR weakness in. Boomburst, while a great STAB move, only 2HKO's most threats at best and can't get the type advantage. Swellow also needs Specs to barely come close to Exploud's power [Base 50 Special Attack is terrible], but that removes the option for Coverage Exploud has to hit the likes of Mega Steelix without Hidden Power or locking yourself into a move. Well sure, being a faster Exploud with less power is cute, there's almost no reason to use Swellow whatsoever when Exploud is in the tier, due to Exploud eclipsing Swellow in every area but speed. Though you're trading Speed and a Rocks Weakness for power and versatility, so Swellow is never worth it.