Serious LGBTQ

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd never thought of it that way before, but I guess the norms of sexual behavior are forced on us based on the gender we were assigned at birth. Been somewhat ashamed to talk about this openly but I've felt less rigid in my sexuality since casting out the expectations on gender I imposed on myself.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
Pardon potential redirect, but I recently started wondering about some finer nuances of the LGBT(QI?) movement as I read more about gender. If the movement does embody Butler's paradigm of gender being purely performative and embracing sexuality as something purely fluid and unique to an individual, who is otherwise forced to conform to these roles (read:behaviour); then as a theoretical premise including trans people in the movement seems like a potential paradox?

I mean sure, they are deviating from their assigned roles but from the overarching "anti-performative" crux of the movement trans people usually seek to actively embrace the "performance" of a man or a woman w.r.t clothing, or social norms, or choice of sexual partners, which makes them a striking anomaly compared to the other sexual groups that make up the movement.

There are two possible answers I've been mulling about. Of course the obvious radically free response would be that a person should be free to even ascribe to a pre-defined role, that's what freedom ultimately means - the freedom to conform. But then you encounter the problematic aspect of furthering oppression by becoming visible agents of the same, for the unaware it's the same reason why many critics argue that magazine cover models harm the cause by actively pandering to, and propagating an extreme version of the heteronormative ideal of a woman, that other people "assigned" the role of woman try to imitate.

The second answer I can allude to is that there is an element of grotesque subversion of the fact that you are openly embracing a gender role that patriarchy explicitly doesn't want you to, and there are seminal differences in your operation as your existence as an actor ultimately doesn't perhaps serve a patriarchal agenda - i.e procreation and the assignment of the performance to the next generation. But then the fact sill remains that you are ultimately willingly "performing", and you enter a lot of gray area viz. personal intention v/s perception: you do ultimately strive to be a man/woman, and therefore place some fund in the binarization of sexuality which potentially runs cross with what L,G, and B are saying.

As a secular individual the question seems pedantic, just fight for their rights. But as say an active proponent of a movement, what do you embrace? Because then the question becomes larger than the individual.

Just as a disclaimer I don't oppose trans-rights and trans-legitimacy. This is me treating it more like a purely ideological question about the inclusion of trans-people in the movement or the need to perhaps redefine certain core ideologues that drive the perception of LGBT in popular discourse. Would anyone care to add/rebut my observations, or direct me towards some useful readings? I could use some nice discussion.
 
Last edited:
Pardon potential redirect, but I recently started wondering about some finer nuances of the LGBT(QI?) movement as I read more about gender. If the movement does embody Butler's paradigm of gender being purely performative and embracing sexuality as something purely fluid and unique to an individual, who is otherwise forced to conform to these roles (read:behaviour); then as a theoretical premise including trans people in the movement seems like a potential paradox?

I mean sure, they are deviating from their assigned roles but from the overarching "anti-performative" crux of the movement trans people usually seek to actively embrace the "performance" of a man or a woman w.r.t clothing, or social norms, or choice of sexual partners, which makes them a striking anomaly compared to the other sexual groups that make up the movement.

There are two possible answers I've been mulling about. Of course the obvious radically free response would be that a person should be free to even ascribe to a pre-defined role, that's what freedom ultimately means - the freedom to conform. But then you encounter the problematic aspect of furthering oppression by becoming visible agents of the same, for the unaware it's the same reason why many critics argue that magazine cover models harm the cause by actively pandering to, and propagating an extreme version of the heteronormative ideal of a woman, that other people "assigned" the role of woman try to imitate.

The second answer I can allude to is that there is an element of grotesque subversion of the fact that you are openly embracing a gender role that patriarchy explicitly doesn't want you to, and there are seminal differences in your operation as your existence as an actor ultimately doesn't perhaps serve a patriarchal agenda - i.e procreation and the assignment of the performance to the next generation. But then the fact sill remains that you are ultimately willingly "performing", and you enter a lot of gray area viz. personal intention v/s perception: you do ultimately strive to be a man/woman, and therefore place some fund in the binarization of sexuality which potentially runs cross with what L,G, and B are saying.

As a secular individual the question seems pedantic, just fight for their rights. But as say an active proponent of a movement, what do you embrace? Because then the question becomes larger than the individual.

Just as a disclaimer I don't oppose trans-rights and trans-legitimacy. This is me treating it more like a purely ideological question about the inclusion of trans-people in the movement or the need to perhaps redefine certain core ideologues that drive the perception of LGBT in popular discourse. Would anyone care to add/rebut my observations, or direct me towards some useful readings? I could use some nice discussion.
not gonna lie i may have gotten lost in some of the big words used here heh. anyways, it seems like your point is about the whole social construct thing of gender, no? well, this is something i see quite a bit & i'd like to clarify; thankfully you seem supportive of LGBT groups, unlike those i see normally posting a similar point to yours (usually in meme form lol..). anyways

i'm a transgender girl (pre-everything, not out to anyone etc.), and i've definitely struggled with my identity for a long time. i'm not a super traditionally feminine person; i don't want to be that traditional role of a woman; for me, that isn't what makes me transgender. to try and sound as polite as possible, i feel like there are too many confused individuals who think that just because they feel like they fit more with the traditional role of a man / woman (when they aren't a man / woman), that makes them a transman or transwoman respectively. however, the trans umbrella isn't just confined to "mtf" and "ftm". trans is actually a large umbrella term for all the different kinds of "queer" gender stuff, at least in my eyes. i'm transgender (as in mtf) not because i want to really conform to the traditional role of a woman, but because my mind doesn't match the body (to put it as simple as possible). i'm not comfortable with being male genderwise... i hate basically all of it. i never had that stereotypical trans experience of always doing the "girl stuff"; i was actually mostly into the more "neutral" stuff like not-so-violent videogames (for the most part), drawing, building things (legos and other stuff like that), etc.. i wasn't into playing sports, and i wasn't into playing with dolls. with that said, for me personally, there are quite a few traditionally "girl" things that i always wanted to do / feel like i missed out on, but that doesn't define the reason for me being trans.

i'm simply trans because of the dysphoria caused by my body (parts). not because i want to be 50s housewife cooking and cleaning for her husband, or a little girl with a bright pink room playing with dolls. those types of things are based on the (without sounding like some crazy SJW) "social construct" of gender... the gender roles.

i don't believe in the whole "third gender" stuff personally, and i don't think we need terms like "agender" and "gender fluid". all these things where you don't really fit "man" or "woman" are simply androgyny imo: a "blurred" gender of sorts that contains aspects of both. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just like there isn't anything wrong with a girl wanting to play football or a boy wanting to play with barbie dolls. it's not the clothes or the items or the societal roles that have a gender; those are just things we've grown accustomed to due to that just being how things work.

my views obviously don't reflect all the views of the trans community. honestly, they're probably a bit different than what most transpeople think...
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
The fact that sexual minorities hear slurs that are fundamentally gender-based is massively missing the point. Even putting aside the disproportionately higher rates of being victim to homicide... or homelessness... or joblessness... the day to day life of a trans person is just worse than a LGB person. Slurs are not remotely the same thing as the daily abuse gender minorities face.

For example, a friend of mine was stopped by TSA today. Then the agent, in front of my friend, said that she needed another agent to come over because "I don't want to clear this." Another friend (who btw has also faced TSA abuse - frankly I don't know of a trans person who HASN'T been demeaned in an airport) still is enrolled at her university as Michael, so all correspondence, grades, student health, etc say Michael, even though she has been identifying as a woman for 3 years now and has been undergoing various forms of hormone therapy. They won't change the name. This means for every single class she takes, the roster lists her as Michael, and so she has to have that conversation with every single professor she has.

Let me know when sexual minorities face such debasing treatment on a daily basis and I'll reconsider my opinion of lumping everything together as "queer" issues. Gays want to not get fired (but hey let's abandon trans people in ENDA in order to ensure at least gays can get protected first) and be able to marry (check), and guarantee that all bakers have to make wedding cakes for those weddings. Trans people want to be treated with basic decency. Not much of a comparison there.
I'm not making any claims about the distribution of funds among LGBT organizations being ok, nor do i think they are, nor do i think the priorities for a lot of LGBT rights movements have been in the right place. However, I don't really see how your argument is... relevant? (and I don't mean this in a condescending way, I'm just kind of confused). I'm arguing for the use of queer as a classification, not for the complete blurring of all subgroups within. I'm not asking for all non-cis people to identify as queer and not as whatever else, or the same for sexual minorities. In the same way that you can be a "person of color" and further be "black" and further be "african-american", you can be "queer" and also "trans" or "gay" or whatever. I acknowledge fully that life for the average trans person is infinitely more difficult than life for the average sexual minority, but again, I don't see how that invalidates the larger category. Extending the race analogy, it's very possible that non-white race A experiences much less oppression as a whole than non-white race B in location C, but we can still talk about the problems that both face as non-white races while individually talking about the struggles of A and talking more about those of B.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your argument.

Pardon potential redirect, but I recently started wondering about some finer nuances of the LGBT(QI?) movement as I read more about gender. If the movement does embody Butler's paradigm of gender being purely performative and embracing sexuality as something purely fluid and unique to an individual, who is otherwise forced to conform to these roles (read:behaviour); then as a theoretical premise including trans people in the movement seems like a potential paradox?

I mean sure, they are deviating from their assigned roles but from the overarching "anti-performative" crux of the movement trans people usually seek to actively embrace the "performance" of a man or a woman w.r.t clothing, or social norms, or choice of sexual partners, which makes them a striking anomaly compared to the other sexual groups that make up the movement.

There are two possible answers I've been mulling about. Of course the obvious radically free response would be that a person should be free to even ascribe to a pre-defined role, that's what freedom ultimately means - the freedom to conform. But then you encounter the problematic aspect of furthering oppression by becoming visible agents of the same, for the unaware it's the same reason why many critics argue that magazine cover models harm the cause by actively pandering to, and propagating an extreme version of the heteronormative ideal of a woman, that other people "assigned" the role of woman try to imitate.

The second answer I can allude to is that there is an element of grotesque subversion of the fact that you are openly embracing a gender role that patriarchy explicitly doesn't want you to, and there are seminal differences in your operation as your existence as an actor ultimately doesn't perhaps serve a patriarchal agenda - i.e procreation and the assignment of the performance to the next generation. But then the fact sill remains that you are ultimately willingly "performing", and you enter a lot of gray area viz. personal intention v/s perception: you do ultimately strive to be a man/woman, and therefore place some fund in the binarization of sexuality which potentially runs cross with what L,G, and B are saying.

As a secular individual the question seems pedantic, just fight for their rights. But as say an active proponent of a movement, what do you embrace? Because then the question becomes larger than the individual.

Just as a disclaimer I don't oppose trans-rights and trans-legitimacy. This is me treating it more like a purely ideological question about the inclusion of trans-people in the movement or the need to perhaps redefine certain core ideologues that drive the perception of LGBT in popular discourse. Would anyone care to add/rebut my observations, or direct me towards some useful readings? I could use some nice discussion.
I think a simple answer to this question might be that even if a trans person passes as if they were cis post-transition, no one lives in a bubble of the present, and the fact that they did transition in the past and experienced dysphoria at some point in their life affects them in the present. Also, transphobia still affects them regardless of if it's directed at them.

(For what it's worth, I think your premise of "trans people usually seek to actively embrace the "performance" of a man or a woman w.r.t clothing, or social norms, or choice of sexual partners, which makes them a striking anomaly compared to the other sexual groups that make up the movement" is probably not true or at least not true to the extent you think it is.)
 
Italy is (the last western country) fighting for civil rights! The issue is quite controversial since the vatican is in rome and many more problems are people are trying to hide their homophobia within the problem of surrogate mothers and the like. A lot of (mostly religious conservative) people still can't accept anything other than their "traditional" (because obviously nobody of them is divorced, remarried, a widow with son etc.!) family and will fight to not give other people rights because that's the key point of a democracy (they have the courage to call their manifestation "family day") but I am quite faithful we can get through and finally get this through!
Here are some pics of the manifestations in Milan (the creepy "sentinelle in piedi" against civil rights in the upper part and lbgtq supporters in the lower part)
 
Pardon potential redirect, but I recently started wondering about some finer nuances of the LGBT(QI?) movement as I read more about gender. If the movement does embody Butler's paradigm of gender being purely performative and embracing sexuality as something purely fluid and unique to an individual, who is otherwise forced to conform to these roles (read:behaviour); then as a theoretical premise including trans people in the movement seems like a potential paradox?

I mean sure, they are deviating from their assigned roles but from the overarching "anti-performative" crux of the movement trans people usually seek to actively embrace the "performance" of a man or a woman w.r.t clothing, or social norms, or choice of sexual partners, which makes them a striking anomaly compared to the other sexual groups that make up the movement.

There are two possible answers I've been mulling about. Of course the obvious radically free response would be that a person should be free to even ascribe to a pre-defined role, that's what freedom ultimately means - the freedom to conform. But then you encounter the problematic aspect of furthering oppression by becoming visible agents of the same, for the unaware it's the same reason why many critics argue that magazine cover models harm the cause by actively pandering to, and propagating an extreme version of the heteronormative ideal of a woman, that other people "assigned" the role of woman try to imitate.

The second answer I can allude to is that there is an element of grotesque subversion of the fact that you are openly embracing a gender role that patriarchy explicitly doesn't want you to, and there are seminal differences in your operation as your existence as an actor ultimately doesn't perhaps serve a patriarchal agenda - i.e procreation and the assignment of the performance to the next generation. But then the fact sill remains that you are ultimately willingly "performing", and you enter a lot of gray area viz. personal intention v/s perception: you do ultimately strive to be a man/woman, and therefore place some fund in the binarization of sexuality which potentially runs cross with what L,G, and B are saying.

As a secular individual the question seems pedantic, just fight for their rights. But as say an active proponent of a movement, what do you embrace? Because then the question becomes larger than the individual.

Just as a disclaimer I don't oppose trans-rights and trans-legitimacy. This is me treating it more like a purely ideological question about the inclusion of trans-people in the movement or the need to perhaps redefine certain core ideologues that drive the perception of LGBT in popular discourse. Would anyone care to add/rebut my observations, or direct me towards some useful readings? I could use some nice discussion.
Medical research largely indicates that gender identity is rooted in neuroanatomy, so Butler's theory that "gender is purely performative" is not accurate. As for gender expression, research on how much is innate and how much is socially influenced is almost impossible to conduct.

A lot of transsexual people don't fit gender expression stereotypes of their identified gender. It's just a media stereotype that it happens "all the time".

While a lot of transsexual people try to fit in better because of safety, or they do express themselves comfortably within the gender binary - just like most cis people do.

What I dislike is that most people who want to "shatter the gender binary" always want to start with transsexual folks. Why not start with cis people? Because that'd be a mostly futile attempt since cis people identify and most of them comfortably express themselves within the binary and are largely opposed to such views? But then all it becomes is the bullying of trans people in LGBT circles who comfortably identify and express themselves within a gender binary, as if trans people didn't have enough to deal with already and as if more fighting and divisiveness inside LGBT circles were necessary.

Non-binary identities aren't superior (nor inferior) to binary identities. Arguing that the gender binary is wrong and needs to be shattered just creates a new binary between non-binary and binary people (again, relevant only mostly against binary trans people). Simply all gender identities and gender expressions should just be equally accepted.

I recommend reading Julia Serano's Whipping Girl, it provides a lot of insight into why "gender performativity" is not the best way to think, and into non-binary vs binary trans issues.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I'm not making any claims about the distribution of funds among LGBT organizations being ok, nor do i think they are, nor do i think the priorities for a lot of LGBT rights movements have been in the right place. However, I don't really see how your argument is... relevant? (and I don't mean this in a condescending way, I'm just kind of confused). I'm arguing for the use of queer as a classification, not for the complete blurring of all subgroups within. I'm not asking for all non-cis people to identify as queer and not as whatever else, or the same for sexual minorities. In the same way that you can be a "person of color" and further be "black" and further be "african-american", you can be "queer" and also "trans" or "gay" or whatever. I acknowledge fully that life for the average trans person is infinitely more difficult than life for the average sexual minority, but again, I don't see how that invalidates the larger category.
I'm saying that the point of having a group of "queer" issues that subsume both "gay" and "trans," et al issues is, well, pointless and maybe even harmful. When there are more issues that impact only one subgroup than there are that affect the whole, it just doesn't make sense to group them. I'd argue this is also true of POC advocacy. There are certainly some issues that they share, such as representation in the media, so-called "micro-aggressions" from their peers, teachers, bosses, etc., racism in dating preference, and some others. But on the whole, it really doesn't make sense to advocate for asian-americans and blacks together, much less native americans, etc etc. One group has a primary concern of police brutality and a discriminatory legal system, as well as an ever-present background discussion of reparations. For the other group, those are not remotely an issue.

it's very possible that non-white race A experiences much less oppression as a whole than non-white race B in location C, but we can still talk about the problems that both face as non-white races while individually talking about the struggles of A and talking more about those of B.
You can do whatever you want in academia, but in terms of actual advocacy, this is a fallacy. The political system's attention span is short. They will hear whatever issue is shouted the loudest and ignore all the other issues the group is shouting for. If race B is a smaller voice (whether due to numbers or mobilization or money) it will not have its unique issues addressed so long as it tries to shout along with race A. In fact, as long as race A is a bigger portion of the group, they have an incentive to keep race B (engaged enough to be members but) quiet, to up their chances of having their issues heard.

This has often been the LGBT advocacy experience. The larger grouping blurs the issues and in fact make it harder for the subgroups to advocate for themselves because their voice gets drowned out by the rest of the larger group that doesn't face those issues (namely the cis, white, generally doing pretty ok financially, gay men). The smaller subgroups pool their resources with the larger ones and then get outvoted on what the group will care about (see the Human Rights Campaign deciding to support ENDA despite its lack of transgender protections).
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I'm saying that the point of having a group of "queer" issues that subsume both "gay" and "trans," et al issues is, well, pointless and maybe even harmful. When there are more issues that impact only one subgroup than there are that affect the whole, it just doesn't make sense to group them. I'd argue this is also true of POC advocacy. There are certainly some issues that they share, such as representation in the media, so-called "micro-aggressions" from their peers, teachers, bosses, etc., racism in dating preference, and some others. But on the whole, it really doesn't make sense to advocate for asian-americans and blacks together, much less native americans, etc etc. One group has a primary concern of police brutality and a discriminatory legal system, as well as an ever-present background discussion of reparations. For the other group, those are not remotely an issue.

You can do whatever you want in academia, but in terms of actual advocacy, this is a fallacy. The political system's attention span is short. They will hear whatever issue is shouted the loudest and ignore all the other issues the group is shouting for. If race B is a smaller voice (whether due to numbers or mobilization or money) it will not have its unique issues addressed so long as it tries to shout along with race A. In fact, as long as race A is a bigger portion of the group, they have an incentive to keep race B (engaged enough to be members but) quiet, to up their chances of having their issues heard.

This has often been the LGBT advocacy experience. The larger grouping blurs the issues and in fact make it harder for the subgroups to advocate for themselves because their voice gets drowned out by the rest of the larger group that doesn't face those issues (namely the cis, white, generally doing pretty ok financially, gay men). The smaller subgroups pool their resources with the larger ones and then get outvoted on what the group will care about (see the Human Rights Campaign deciding to support ENDA despite its lack of transgender protections).

But again, I'm arguing for classification, not advocacy. Unless you're saying that the existence and use of the word queer leads to bad distribution of funds, in which case you must also be against the existence of words like "people of color", "trans umbrella", "spectrum", "non-binary", and all sorts of others. At the end of the day, intersectionality will always be key part of oppression, and it is possible to have "#BlackLivesMatter" and "#TransBlackLivesMatter" and for both of those to be legitimate movements. I'd like to make myself clear again; I'm not at all advocating for all trans issues to be wooshed into a "queer issues" coalition, and i think that recognizing the different struggles different LGBT groups have by creating separate subgroups is necessary and important.

I guess I just don't see why your argument is confined to trans people if we're both talking about terminology. I mean, Trans People of Color face far more oppression than their white counterparts, so why even have a label for "trans people", and non-binary or non-passing TPOCS have it even worse, so remove TPOC, and poor...

Intersectionality exists, and that's why we can have organizations and conversations about these subgroups while still recognizing the existence of larger umbrella groups.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
No. Intersectionality is entirely different. Trans people of color face more oppression than white trans people* (edit: lol before I had said here white people of color... brain fart) because they are both trans and black/latino/etc.

Trans people face more oppression than gay people because their issues are largely separate and much worse.
 
Last edited:

brightobject

there like moonlight
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I am not all that involved int the LGBT community and do not think I have the 'right' to really speak on such matters but:

I want your guys' opinion on a manga I read awhile back, called Hourou Musuko, or Wandering Son (http://myanimelist.net/manga/585/Hourou_Musuko). It's a comic centered around a boy who enjoys cross-dressing, and deals with LGBT topics as well as coming-of-age. Due to the younger age of many of the characters sex and titillation do not come into play at all until the very end of the series, which in my book was a plus. I've read other manga where gays, trans people, (insert gender nonconformist archetype here) were treated as either objects of sexual tittilation or comedic objects (e.g. the flamboyant gay or the quirky drag queen), and I personally believed this series to be taking a much more serious, grounded look at the issues LGBT people (and all people) face growing up and as adults.

Of course, if you don't like manga or just don't want to read, that's cool with me. I know a lot of you have probably had your fill of LGBT literature but I just wanted to share this here since I can't think of anywhere else to. It would be a lot of work (117 chapters iirc) but I'd like to hear your guys' opinions' on the author's portrayal of LGBT issues. Like I said, I personally thought it treated them sensibly and in a way that helped me to better understand (if that's the right word) the feelings (if that's the right word lol) LGBT people have as they struggle to come to terms with their identity, etc., but I'm a pretty privileged dude and I wanted to hear what you guys (who are personally invested in these issues) thought about the way the author tackles these subjects, if only to correct any misconceptions I may have gleaned from the series.
 
That sounds like something I would like to read actually. As a younger weeaboo I took an interest in yaoi anime/manga and such only to learn that only about 10% of yaoi is tolerable to read/view and not riddled with abuse and rape. It's not like I ever expected realism but yaoi really is terrible. And, like you said, any queer characters in anime/manga tend to be treated as a joke. There are some decent characters but generally you end up with shit more like Puri Puri Prisoner from One Punch Man. So I'm curious to see if it is handled well.
 
Please don't compare problems between different marginalized groups. Yes, trans people have it harder than gay, gays have it harder than bi people, and bi people have it harder than asexuals. Guess what, it doesn't matter. I would never respond to Black Lives Matter with "Be quiet! Latinos and Muslims arguably have a more difficult time nowadays!" because true or not, there's no valid reason other than being a dick to trivialize such things.

It's now become cool to be gay, which is stupid.
I know this conversation is over, but I felt like it's important to point out that this sentiment isn't really out in the real world. On the internet, there are a few places *cough* tumblr *cough* where being gay = cool and being straight = gtfo and this does translate into some social groups out there, namely hipster girls, those die-hard feminazis that give feminism a bad name, and goth teens/young adults. At least in my experiences, the majority of straight people, particularly males, have an unintentional "I support gays as a subordinate group that need help" rather than "I support gays as an equal group that aren't being treated the way they deserve." I've never found a straight person outside of the internet who's ever said "I wish I was gay." Hell, I've never even heard "I wouldn't mind being gay." It's pretty much always "DON'T EVER ASSOCIATE ME WITH THAT WORD."
 
Yes, trans people have it harder than gay, gays have it harder than bi people, and bi people have it harder than asexuals.
Is no one here remotely offended that they essentially ranked peoples struggles? I face completely different problems internally and to people I'm out with than trans people, gay people, or asexual people. Hell, my experience is probably different than 90% of bi people. I guess you might attribute it "being easier" to be bi or asexual than gay because of the automatic stigma that is associated with the word gay in some peoples minds. I can't speak entirely for asexual people (or trans people, I've left them out of this post because for some reason you assume they have it worst, which on some grounds I agree with, but w/e) but at least for bi people, in a world where it really is becoming more acceptable to be gay, people still can't fathom how someone could feel attraction for more than one gender, to the point where they deny it. Point is, all of us have faced struggles because of our orientation. Let's not make it a contest.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
Please don't compare problems between different marginalized groups. Yes, trans people have it harder than gay, gays have it harder than bi people, and bi people have it harder than asexuals. Guess what, it doesn't matter. I would never respond to Black Lives Matter with "Be quiet! Latinos and Muslims arguably have a more difficult time nowadays!" because true or not, there's no valid reason other than being a dick to trivialize such things.
You hardly see anyone erasing homosexuality and pretending it doesn't exist. Meanwhile, bisexuals are adversely affected by the same heterosexist attitudes that affect gay people, but also by bisexual erasure perpetuated even by the gay community. Read my earlier post on monosexism if you want to know more.

I'm going to end that there because there's really no use in turning struggles into a competition, which I believe you were getting at, which is a point I certainly agree with - to suggest we should only care about one specific issue because it's worse than all the others is fallacious. While I firmly believe gay people have it better than bisexuals, the existence of bisexual erasure doesn't make homophobia a non-issue - likewise, trans people have it worse than bisexuals (for example, TSA abuse - I legitimately didn't know that was a thing until Bughouse posted about it, like what the hell, that's fucked up) but that doesn't mean the issues of bisexuals aren't worth discussing. We really shouldn't be shouting out "well they have it worse than them" or whatever as if it makes the less bad issue a non-issue. It really seems like some kind of internet trend to turn struggles into a competitive sport.

So, in closing, I agree with the point of your post ("It shouldn't be a contest") so I was really just nitpicking one specific thing about your post.
 
My apologies, my intentions were not to rank people's struggles nor do I think my specific opinion on that matter is the end all fact.
 

Omega-Xis

Mauville's Own
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Huh.. Well I guess I'll "come out" here (always feel weird saying that given my orientation).

I thought I was straight for the longest time. I remember going through middle school and high school thinking I was "just shy." I didn't ask anybody out. I didn't have the slightest interest in dating. It was always confusing to me when I would hear guys around me talking about how badly they wanted to "get a notch under the belt" or start dating this girl they were into. All I could think about was what game I wanted to play when I got home from school or after a practice the few years I played a sport.

It finally hit me after I had spent a year or so in college. My problem wasn't that I was shy... The thought of asking someone out, if I was going to do it, didn't frighten me. Not in the slightest. I had dealt with rejection with plenty of other things, I simply wasn't interested in asking anyone out nor was I attracted to anyone. Things were such a struggle. I had no idea what I was dealing with, I had never heard of anybody dealing with not being attracted or interested in anyone (when I thought about it later it had been once and that was it but I'll get to that later). I did a bit of research and I came across the topic of asexuality, and I thought it fit me and I did some research on it.

I remember it being near the end of my sophomore year at University and I finally decided to go to the LGBTQ center on my campus. Until I started talking to the counselor I met with, I hadn't realized what I had kept pent up inside for almost 2 years. The counselor and I talked about all sorts of things... And I started ranting on and on about how I thought I was ruining my family's dreams (middle class family dreams of their only child growing up to get married and give them grandchildren). I think I cried for almost 10 minutes straight and I could hardly talk while doing so. I thought I was disappointing everyone, that I had failed. So many questions went through my head. "Why me? Why can't I just be normal? Why can't I like someone?" I felt like a freak and sometimes I still do.

A good long while after (even nowadays) I did a lot of searching and I honestly was able to think of one time I took an interest in someone physically/emotionally, but that wasn't enough to make me think I'm straight. I don't feel straight in any sense of the word. I look at any other man or woman outside of this person and I honestly feel nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. When I started to look at things and think about how sexuality operates on a spectrum, I changed how I identified sexually. Now I consider myself a gray asexual and romantically as aromantic. This is something I feel pretty confident with and I feel pretty convinced they both fit. Usually I'm not about labels but it's a lot better than being confused and feeling completely lost like I did 2-3 years ago.

I've dealt with a lot. People tell me I don't exist or that I'm some biological failure. That used to get to me but I've had too many friend on PS! tell me to just ignore people like that since they're not worth paying attention to. It might sound pathetic but if PS! hadn't been around, I'm not sure what I would've done. I was really depressed at times and after a few years my older friends at Uni had all graduated so I had nobody around and I'm awful at introducing myself to people, so I don't really have friends irl. I found this via a bit of browsing and I figured I'd open up. What do I have to lose? Perhaps there's someone out there going through something similar, who knows? I'm done trying to hide, at least as far as Smogon/PS! goes. Still working on irl; I've told my mom but I'm still struggling with how I'd tell anyone else in my family.

That's it, I suppose.
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey my name is Ivan and I'm an 18 year old gay male with nothing but a toe and an arm out of the closet. Here's my life story I hope you enjoy it thanks.

Throughout my life I've gone through the exact same "growing up story" as most others have (not to imply that I don't yet still have plenty of room to grow into the person I will eventually become). I was a femmeish kid with a slightly higher inclination to making girlfriends than guyfriends. I didn't like sports much, so I felt constantly threatened by the seemingly brutish actions of my fellow straight male peers, and often relied on humor and wits to get by. I began to realize my true sexuality after dating two girls (once in 5th grade and once in 7th grade) and discovering that I would much rather watch wrestling than deal with sloppy 12 year old girl kisses. I eventually moved away from childhood friends right before high school, which allowed me to erase my past and conceal the parts of myself that I wasn't proud of, but I couldn't escape it and in 11th grade found out (half regretfully but also half happily) that most of the friends I had newly made were also gay. I ended up having a LARGE crush on a semi-close friend that was openly gay (he was tall, white, funny, smart, had the best blue eyes, and only ate marshmallows for lunch) that resulted in some ruined friendships and my eventual disappointment because of a "racial barrier". Now, I am open to most of my friends and will be honest if pointedly asked, but I have not come out to my family and have no intentions of being publicly out or flamboyant because even though I don't care much about other peoples' opinions, it's also none of their business. That being said, I have absolutely no doubts about my existing sexuality or gender.


But actually my upbringing isn't what I wanted to focus this post on; if I'm to be honest and objective I would have to say that I've had it way better than most, being part of an open community and having the opportunity to "test the waters" first by coming out to friends on the internet. What's plagued me much more than societal approval is parental approval and reconciling my sexuality with my personal religion.

So besides my gay childhood I also had a devoutly religious side of me that still persists (albeit weakly) today. I was raised a Christian (don't know the denomination because in the Chinese community it doesn't matter as much) and have been going to church every free Sunday morning AND Friday night since I was born. My family has always been part of our Chinese Christian Community, and most of my friends out of school are from church. I firmly believe just as much as I believe that I'm a gay guy in Jesus and the whole lot, which has created a serious internal divide between my inner beliefs and my gay reality. Moving to a new church was hard knowing that I was gay; consequently I have not participated much in my new church and have very few friends because I always leave ASAP, but I'm still strong in my foundations of my faith.

As of right now, I've managed to somewhat come to terms with myself. It took quite a lot to even get to this point, there was many a night where I would quietly try to pray the gay away but nothing ever happened. If you care, I personally believe that condemnation of homosexual acts was included not to be taken literally but as one of the many statutes written as a reflection of the current societal cultures of the time that the Bible was written, and not one to be applied to the life of Ivan from the 21st century. There's also an emotional stubbornness; I know what I feel is real because I've felt it before, and since I know I can't give up on religion but I also know I can't give up on my true self, I've had to accept a truce, however meager it may be.

Dealing with my parents is a much more pressing and difficult issue, however; I've brought up the subject to them objectively before and we've had some fairly open discussions about LGBTQ+ stuff while I tried my best to inform them with "stuff I happened to be reading on the internet" as well as various pro-gay religious arguments that I've found over the years, but while they did show some promising signs of being open-minded, they were still quite firm in their stance and interpretation. I'm not quite sure what to do next; I don't think I'm confident enough in myself or in them yet to be able to come out to them. I keep telling myself I'll "do it on this day" but then push it back. For right now I plan on dumping it on them while I'm in college but that's not going to make it any easier.

Balancing homosexuality with religion in the public isn't easy either; out of paranoia I have to consciously keep the news out of the hands of people that could potentially spread it to people from my church to keep it away from my parents, but a part of me also hopes that it might be accidentally leaked to them, like ripping a band-aid off quickly.

The practical aspect of a homosexual lifestyle has also been a problem for me since I've always wanted to have my own biological kids and to be able to live a fairly normal lifestyle. After already being turned down once for being asian, my dating prospects have been pretty bare so far. Not to mention, being asian in this godforsaken country is already hard enough, and I had no meaning of having to deal with homophobia either. Still, I've become more open to other types of families over the years. I guess that's one benefit of being gay; I definitely feel like I would have been much more of a pretentious, judgmental asshole if I hadn't myself been one of the people I was supposed to hate. I guess God really doesn't make mistakes.



Hoooooly shit that was a long ass text. From here, I just want to see if there are other people struggling to reconcile sexuality with their religion, and to see how other people have handled coming out to religious parents. I know religion is a pretty touchy subject especially in the LGBTQ community, but it has to be brought up, so let's keep things civil please.


Retrospectively this was a really odd type of post to write with Alyssa Edwards, the Queen of gay icons across the USA, as my avatar and signature
 
Last edited:

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Hey my name is Ivan and I'm an 18 year old gay male with nothing but a toe and an arm out of the closet. Here's my life story I hope you enjoy it thanks.

Throughout my life I've gone through the exact same "growing up story" as most others have (not to imply that I don't yet still have plenty of room to grow into the person I will eventually become). I was a femmeish kid with a slightly higher inclination to making girlfriends than guyfriends. I didn't like sports much, so I felt constantly threatened by the seemingly brutish actions of my fellow straight male peers, and often relied on humor and wits to get by. I began to realize my true sexuality after dating two girls (once in 5th grade and once in 7th grade) and discovering that I would much rather watch wrestling than deal with sloppy 12 year old girl kisses. I eventually moved away from childhood friends right before high school, which allowed me to erase my past and conceal the parts of myself that I wasn't proud of, but I couldn't escape it and in 11th grade found out (half regretfully but also half happily) that most of the friends I had newly made were also gay. I ended up having a LARGE crush on a semi-close friend that was openly gay (he was tall, white, funny, smart, had the best blue eyes, and only ate marshmallows for lunch) that resulted in some ruined friendships and my eventual disappointment because of a "racial barrier". Now, I am open to most of my friends and will be honest if pointedly asked, but I have not come out to my family and have no intentions of being publicly out or flamboyant because even though I don't care much about other peoples' opinions, it's also none of their business. That being said, I have absolutely no doubts about my existing sexuality or gender.


But actually my upbringing isn't what I wanted to focus this post on; if I'm to be honest and objective I would have to say that I've had it way better than most, being part of an open community and having the opportunity to "test the waters" first by coming out to friends on the internet. What's plagued me much more than societal approval is parental approval and reconciling my sexuality with my personal religion.

So besides my gay childhood I also had a devoutly religious side of me that still persists (albeit weakly) today. I was raised a Christian (don't know the denomination because in the Chinese community it doesn't matter as much) and have been going to church every free Sunday morning AND Friday night since I was born. My family has always been part of our Chinese Christian Community, and most of my friends out of school are from church. I firmly believe just as much as I believe that I'm a gay guy in Jesus and the whole lot, which has created a serious internal divide between my inner beliefs and my gay reality. Moving to a new church was hard knowing that I was gay; consequently I have not participated much in my new church and have very few friends because I always leave ASAP, but I'm still strong in my foundations of my faith.

As of right now, I've managed to somewhat come to terms with myself. It took quite a lot to even get to this point, there was many a night where I would quietly try to pray the gay away but nothing ever happened. If you care, I personally believe that condemnation of homosexual acts was included not to be taken literally but as one of the many statutes written as a reflection of the current societal cultures of the time that the Bible was written, and not one to be applied to the life of Ivan from the 21st century. There's also an emotional stubbornness; I know what I feel is real because I've felt it before, and since I know I can't give up on religion but I also know I can't give up on my true self, I've had to accept a truce, however meager it may be.

Dealing with my parents is a much more pressing and difficult issue, however; I've brought up the subject to them objectively before and we've had some fairly open discussions about LGBTQ+ stuff while I tried my best to inform them with "stuff I happened to be reading on the internet" as well as various pro-gay religious arguments that I've found over the years, but while they did show some promising signs of being open-minded, they were still quite firm in their stance and interpretation. I'm not quite sure what to do next; I don't think I'm confident enough in myself or in them yet to be able to come out to them. I keep telling myself I'll "do it on this day" but then push it back. For right now I plan on dumping it on them while I'm in college but that's not going to make it any easier.

Balancing homosexuality with religion in the public isn't easy either; out of paranoia I have to consciously keep the news out of the hands of people that could potentially spread it to people from my church to keep it away from my parents, but a part of me also hopes that it might be accidentally leaked to them, like ripping a band-aid off quickly.

The practical aspect of a homosexual lifestyle has also been a problem for me since I've always wanted to have my own biological kids and to be able to live a fairly normal lifestyle. After already being turned down once for being asian, my dating prospects have been pretty bare so far. Not to mention, being asian in this godforsaken country is already hard enough, and I had no meaning of having to deal with homophobia either. Still, I've become more open to other types of families over the years. I guess that's one benefit of being gay; I definitely feel like I would have been much more of a pretentious, judgmental asshole if I hadn't myself been one of the people I was supposed to hate. I guess God really doesn't make mistakes.



Hoooooly shit that was a long ass text. From here, I just want to see if there are other people struggling to reconcile sexuality with their religion, and to see how other people have handled coming out to religious parents. I know religion is a pretty touchy subject especially in the LGBTQ community, but it has to be brought up, so let's keep things civil please.


Retrospectively this was a really odd type of post to write with Alyssa Edwards, the Queen of gay icons across the USA, as my avatar and signature
i recommend coming out to your parents using only tongue pops

(seriously though)

your situation is pretty similar to how mine was minus the whole religious thing. while i'm not personally religious, I definitely don't think religion and non-straightness are mutually incompatible - if you haven't already seen it, Matthew Vine's lecture on homosexuality coexisting with the bible is very good.

a "homosexual lifestyle" doesn't have to be really all that different. you can have biological children through a surrogate, and other than that...well...the only differences are going to be with other peoples' perception of you.

wrt your hoping that your parents find out somehow, i definitely understand that feeling. my dad straight up asked me (which in hindsight was really fucking scary) and I came out to my mom in a huge dramatic event coupled with a bunch of other shit, so my coming out definitely was not how i planned - and usually it never is. I was pretty much in the same "i'll tell you if you ask me" stage before college, and honestly I think as long as you're prepared for it to travel around that might be the best way for you to end up coming out (or if you end up going away for college you can do it remotely to your parents).

just a question, if you did end up dating the blue-eyed dude, were you planning on telling anyone? for me I'd always think "if i ever get a date i'll just come out that way" but in hindsight I don't know if I would have

at any rate, you sound like you have stuff under control; just don't be afraid to ask for help - it is kinda too easy to delude ourselves into thinking we're much more comfortable with being only half-out than we really are, and when something happens that threatens to out us that becomes apparent all too quickly.
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
just a question, if you did end up dating the blue-eyed dude, were you planning on telling anyone? for me I'd always think "if i ever get a date i'll just come out that way" but in hindsight I don't know if I would have
Hey, thanks for the thoughtful reply! I just wanted to adress this part of the post

1. No I didnt go out with him. I actually came out to my closest friends by admitting my crush on him. Eventually things got tense in the friend group (partially because of my feelings) and there was a tense split. Nowadays me (and the guy) are still friends but more distant now. I made my move and got turned down because I didn't fit into his white fratboy" stereotype. I'm not mad about his "tastes" though, because I share similar ones. And yes I still think he's hot but I would no longer go out with him. Recently I told him I wanted to ask a girl to prom and he was surprised I wasnt going to ask a guy and I was like bitch what the fuck guy am I gonna ask bitch you????


2. Ive always thought about the whole "wait until I date" thing. I know Im gay but I dont even know if Ill get into a legitimate, long lasting relationship. Maybe Im not destined to be married at all. If that were the case Id rather not tell my parents at all and let them live thinking I was just a straight single guy my whole life. But on the flipside I also want to be honest with myself, and to not feel like I have to hide or hold anything back. And so the turmoil persists.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey my name is Ivan and I'm an 18 year old gay male with nothing but a toe and an arm out of the closet. Here's my life story I hope you enjoy it thanks.

Throughout my life I've gone through the exact same "growing up story" as most others have (not to imply that I don't yet still have plenty of room to grow into the person I will eventually become). I was a femmeish kid with a slightly higher inclination to making girlfriends than guyfriends. I didn't like sports much, so I felt constantly threatened by the seemingly brutish actions of my fellow straight male peers, and often relied on humor and wits to get by. I began to realize my true sexuality after dating two girls (once in 5th grade and once in 7th grade) and discovering that I would much rather watch wrestling than deal with sloppy 12 year old girl kisses. I eventually moved away from childhood friends right before high school, which allowed me to erase my past and conceal the parts of myself that I wasn't proud of, but I couldn't escape it and in 11th grade found out (half regretfully but also half happily) that most of the friends I had newly made were also gay. I ended up having a LARGE crush on a semi-close friend that was openly gay (he was tall, white, funny, smart, had the best blue eyes, and only ate marshmallows for lunch) that resulted in some ruined friendships and my eventual disappointment because of a "racial barrier". Now, I am open to most of my friends and will be honest if pointedly asked, but I have not come out to my family and have no intentions of being publicly out or flamboyant because even though I don't care much about other peoples' opinions, it's also none of their business. That being said, I have absolutely no doubts about my existing sexuality or gender.


But actually my upbringing isn't what I wanted to focus this post on; if I'm to be honest and objective I would have to say that I've had it way better than most, being part of an open community and having the opportunity to "test the waters" first by coming out to friends on the internet. What's plagued me much more than societal approval is parental approval and reconciling my sexuality with my personal religion.

So besides my gay childhood I also had a devoutly religious side of me that still persists (albeit weakly) today. I was raised a Christian (don't know the denomination because in the Chinese community it doesn't matter as much) and have been going to church every free Sunday morning AND Friday night since I was born. My family has always been part of our Chinese Christian Community, and most of my friends out of school are from church. I firmly believe just as much as I believe that I'm a gay guy in Jesus and the whole lot, which has created a serious internal divide between my inner beliefs and my gay reality. Moving to a new church was hard knowing that I was gay; consequently I have not participated much in my new church and have very few friends because I always leave ASAP, but I'm still strong in my foundations of my faith.

As of right now, I've managed to somewhat come to terms with myself. It took quite a lot to even get to this point, there was many a night where I would quietly try to pray the gay away but nothing ever happened. If you care, I personally believe that condemnation of homosexual acts was included not to be taken literally but as one of the many statutes written as a reflection of the current societal cultures of the time that the Bible was written, and not one to be applied to the life of Ivan from the 21st century. There's also an emotional stubbornness; I know what I feel is real because I've felt it before, and since I know I can't give up on religion but I also know I can't give up on my true self, I've had to accept a truce, however meager it may be.

Dealing with my parents is a much more pressing and difficult issue, however; I've brought up the subject to them objectively before and we've had some fairly open discussions about LGBTQ+ stuff while I tried my best to inform them with "stuff I happened to be reading on the internet" as well as various pro-gay religious arguments that I've found over the years, but while they did show some promising signs of being open-minded, they were still quite firm in their stance and interpretation. I'm not quite sure what to do next; I don't think I'm confident enough in myself or in them yet to be able to come out to them. I keep telling myself I'll "do it on this day" but then push it back. For right now I plan on dumping it on them while I'm in college but that's not going to make it any easier.

Balancing homosexuality with religion in the public isn't easy either; out of paranoia I have to consciously keep the news out of the hands of people that could potentially spread it to people from my church to keep it away from my parents, but a part of me also hopes that it might be accidentally leaked to them, like ripping a band-aid off quickly.

The practical aspect of a homosexual lifestyle has also been a problem for me since I've always wanted to have my own biological kids and to be able to live a fairly normal lifestyle. After already being turned down once for being asian, my dating prospects have been pretty bare so far. Not to mention, being asian in this godforsaken country is already hard enough, and I had no meaning of having to deal with homophobia either. Still, I've become more open to other types of families over the years. I guess that's one benefit of being gay; I definitely feel like I would have been much more of a pretentious, judgmental asshole if I hadn't myself been one of the people I was supposed to hate. I guess God really doesn't make mistakes.



Hoooooly shit that was a long ass text. From here, I just want to see if there are other people struggling to reconcile sexuality with their religion, and to see how other people have handled coming out to religious parents. I know religion is a pretty touchy subject especially in the LGBTQ community, but it has to be brought up, so let's keep things civil please.


Retrospectively this was a really odd type of post to write with Alyssa Edwards, the Queen of gay icons across the USA, as my avatar and signature

I don't have a lot to say about the homosexual experience, but I think I can weigh in intelligently about the Asian American Christian one.

First, I'll say that if you are looking for a circle where you can be comfortable and gay in a Christian Community, it does exist. Just last Christmas, my pastor gave a pretty harsh lashing on Kim Davis and "Christians who do not answer God's call of welcome and mercy" in her Sermon. She's Korean, and my Dad--a church senior staff--is Chinese, but it's a Japanese American Congregational church in Hawaii--churches probably don't get more liberal than that. I don't practice nearly as devoutly as you or my Dad so no guaranteeing my knowledge here, but supposedly Congregational is the most open denomination. Prespetarian is pretty liberal too from my experience. Trying Asian American churches in these denominations may be a good start; but definitely go and test the waters I'd say. If you were in Hawaii I'd tell you to relax and lower your guard more.

I've visited a number of Chinese American churches on the mainland while in college. Generally, I'd say they all seemed rational and grounded good communities-- probably not the demographic that relates well to our current republican candidates on social policies, but generally more conservative in vibe, especially on the economic front. There will be those who accept you, and those who won't.

I'd actually argue that I'd rather be an Asian American gay Christian than a white one-- in terms of community acceptance. While Chinese/Japanese circles have many wealthy people and their own strain of economic conservatism to go with it, their unchanging minority mindset and persistent division from white main stream means ours is a community that will never shake a tendancy to sway towards social liberalism.

Anyway, just on the Christianity front-- the media is just dominated by the crazy evangelicals and traditional Catholics, but the larger reality is that there is a broad range of social beliefs between church communities, and there's certainly one out there for you.

Also, fuck literal interpretation of the bible. An absolute doctrine derived from scripture is worthless. It wasn't even written by Jesus to begin with, and has been re-written to social agenda so many times through so many eras in regions that have zero to do with Asian American history. The Bible is reference material only, that for s modern Christian should be looked at for high level ethical teachings and provoking thought from inciteful passage only; interpretation belonging completely to the individual, with no call to obey or read without scrutiny. My opinion. Some say there is no value to the Bible if you pick and choose-- but I'd argue there's clearly no value to the Bible at all if you attempt to take it at face value.
 
Last edited:

jrp

Banned deucer.
I believe that religious text is entirely up to interpretation. However my stance on what exists in the old testament is that the new testament invalidates the laws set in the old. I'm no religious scholar, but I've done my share of reading of the bible, mainly from being bored as hell when I was a kid during sermons and wanting something to do.

At any rate, coming out of the proverbial closet lifts a huge weight off of your shoulders. I was lucky in admitting it publicly in that I've built a relatively strong community of friends that will stand by me no matter what path I take on a personal level.
Throughout my life I've gone through the exact same "growing up story" as most others have (not to imply that I don't yet still have plenty of room to grow into the person I will eventually become). I was a femmeish kid with a slightly higher inclination to making girlfriends than guyfriends. I didn't like sports much, so I felt constantly threatened by the seemingly brutish actions of my fellow straight male peers, and often relied on humor and wits to get by. I began to realize my true sexuality after dating two girls (once in 5th grade and once in 7th grade) and discovering that I would much rather watch wrestling than deal with sloppy 12 year old girl kisses. I eventually moved away from childhood friends right before high school, which allowed me to erase my past and conceal the parts of myself that I wasn't proud of, but I couldn't escape it and in 11th grade found out (half regretfully but also half happily) that most of the friends I had newly made were also gay.

It's funny that your experience is that you preferred female company to male company because my experience has been the exact opposite. I don't explicitly have an issue with women, but I get relatively uncomfortable around them. I had a couple fake relationships throughout middle and high school that I wasn't just lying to the partner, I was lying to myself with. I've always just felt more comfortable around men. It's easy to fall into the trap of "not wanting to be different" when you're dealing with feelings like these, and it's certainly something I fell for. Even still, I didn't fully accept what I was until my senior year of high school when I found that I had fallen for another boy that was in marching band with me. To this day, I'm not sure if he's gay or straight, and we had a bit of a falling out due to a disagreement, so I probably never will.

At any rate, regarding religion: I don't specifically have a problem with religion on a personal level. I only care if people let their religion cause them to see me as less of a person due to my sexuality. I've accepted that family members are going to be exceptions due to the fact that, particularly the older ones, have had their beliefs drilled into their head since they were kids. I won't let the fact that my grandfather is extremely homophobic get in the way with my relationship with him.

I won't hold an entire religion responsible for the beliefs of an ignorant few, though.
 
not gonna lie i may have gotten lost in some of the big words used here heh. anyways, it seems like your point is about the whole social construct thing of gender, no? well, this is something i see quite a bit & i'd like to clarify; thankfully you seem supportive of LGBT groups, unlike those i see normally posting a similar point to yours (usually in meme form lol..). anyways

i'm a transgender girl (pre-everything, not out to anyone etc.), and i've definitely struggled with my identity for a long time. i'm not a super traditionally feminine person; i don't want to be that traditional role of a woman; for me, that isn't what makes me transgender. to try and sound as polite as possible, i feel like there are too many confused individuals who think that just because they feel like they fit more with the traditional role of a man / woman (when they aren't a man / woman), that makes them a transman or transwoman respectively. however, the trans umbrella isn't just confined to "mtf" and "ftm". trans is actually a large umbrella term for all the different kinds of "queer" gender stuff, at least in my eyes. i'm transgender (as in mtf) not because i want to really conform to the traditional role of a woman, but because my mind doesn't match the body (to put it as simple as possible). i'm not comfortable with being male genderwise... i hate basically all of it. i never had that stereotypical trans experience of always doing the "girl stuff"; i was actually mostly into the more "neutral" stuff like not-so-violent videogames (for the most part), drawing, building things (legos and other stuff like that), etc.. i wasn't into playing sports, and i wasn't into playing with dolls. with that said, for me personally, there are quite a few traditionally "girl" things that i always wanted to do / feel like i missed out on, but that doesn't define the reason for me being trans.

i'm simply trans because of the dysphoria caused by my body (parts). not because i want to be 50s housewife cooking and cleaning for her husband, or a little girl with a bright pink room playing with dolls. those types of things are based on the (without sounding like some crazy SJW) "social construct" of gender... the gender roles.

i don't believe in the whole "third gender" stuff personally, and i don't think we need terms like "agender" and "gender fluid". all these things where you don't really fit "man" or "woman" are simply androgyny imo: a "blurred" gender of sorts that contains aspects of both. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just like there isn't anything wrong with a girl wanting to play football or a boy wanting to play with barbie dolls. it's not the clothes or the items or the societal roles that have a gender; those are just things we've grown accustomed to due to that just being how things work.

my views obviously don't reflect all the views of the trans community. honestly, they're probably a bit different than what most transpeople think...
* The stereotypical experience is one among many. I had pretty similar interests to yours growing up.

* While I've sometimes had "femme" moments, they've usually been from times when I felt dysphoric and wanted to feel more feminine. I'm getting interested in trying them again, but more because I haven't done it for a while than anything else.

* The "social construct" stuff (as opposed to "brain stem programming stuff perhaps filtered through a certain cultural lens") honestly doesn't seem to be a popular opinion among trans people I've met (either IRL or online). My body expects to be female.

* Non-binary, bigender, agender, genderfluid, two-spirit, etc. exist because those terms more accurately and precisely describe certain experiences than androgyny does.

My overall opinion on non-binary or extra-binary gender concepts: "I don't know where your identity comes from, but I do know you deserve to be taken seriously."

* screw 50's stereotypes
 

Omega-Xis

Mauville's Own
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Hoooooly shit that was a long ass text. From here, I just want to see if there are other people struggling to reconcile sexuality with their religion, and to see how other people have handled coming out to religious parents. I know religion is a pretty touchy subject especially in the LGBTQ community, but it has to be brought up, so let's keep things civil please.
Well, I guess this can be an opportunity to share a bit more about myself and maybe get some discussion going about this.

I'm WELS Lutheran (WELS is just a different sect, it's the Wisconsin synod, the other main sect being the Missouri synod) and in terms of practices, etc., it's pretty strict. Women can't be pastors, a more "old-school" approach is taken to interpreting the Bible, if you catch my drift. Naturally I have a lot of people in the different churches I've been to (I've moved around quite a bit) condemn/deny non-heterosexual people having the right to marry.

A lot of times I feel like I really don't understand that. What harm is it doing to you if a man marries another man or a woman marries another woman? That's not hurting you at all, they should still have that right and at the end of the day you can still disagree with it if you want. In Bible classes, I'd say that since the church and state are separate entities, people should be able to marry individuals of the same sex. I was met with some pretty stark disapproval, but I've never really been one to care what other people think of my opinions. So I've definitely had a difficult time reconciling what I believe about sexuality with religious beliefs and people in my religious community.

As of right now, I've managed to somewhat come to terms with myself. It took quite a lot to even get to this point, there was many a night where I would quietly try to pray the gay away but nothing ever happened.
On a more personal level, I shared this same experience, albeit from a different perspective. Once I was about 18 or 19 and I finally felt like I understood that I was at the asexual point in the spectrum and I still couldn't accept it, I prayed night after night. Prayed that I would find someone that I liked, that I could just not be who I was. I finally stopped doing that when I came to terms with who I was and was more equipped and ready to embrace my identity. It also didn't hurt that I truly believe that God loves everyone, and I think any true Christian believes the same. That's what the Bible teaches. Those people holding "God hates (BAN ME PLEASE)" signs? They're not Christian, don't believe in God, and they give anyone who is a bad reputation and name.

As for coming out to parents, I did say that I came out to my mom. I guess I can talk a bit about that. Her and I had been hanging out like we usually do the week before I started my sophomore year of college (for as long as I can remember we'd just have a day and hang out together at a mall or something and go shopping as a last "shebang" before school kicked in) and it had been really fun. More than anything I just wanted to get who I was out in the air. I didn't really say it directly, I said all sorts of things like "So you know I've never wanted to date/get married," "I've never been interested in anyone" etc. etc. Her exact words escape me, but after saying everything she finally just said something to the effect of, "I get it. You're not straight." She actually had thought I wasn't for the longest time too. I'm not sure what she thinks about it from a religious point of view, but from her point of view as my mom, all she told me is that she wants me to be happy, no matter what, and if this was what made me happy, she supported me 100%.

I'm still not sure how I'd come out to the rest of my family given that a lot of them don't really have that same ability to support someone if they have some quality that clashes with their personal beliefs. Honestly, I'm at a point where unless I'm certain the reaction will be 100% positive and I think this person will support me and be accepting of me no matter what, I'm not going to say anything. I think life is too short to deal with bullshit because someone can't accept who you are. If people in my life were to somehow find out I was a gray asexual without me telling them (not sure how they would, this is just a hypothetical situation) and they weren't accepting, you know what? I'd probably just cut them out of my life. Sure, it sucks since they're family, but if they're not supporting who I am because some quality of me personally doesn't agree with a doctrine they follow, that's their choice and I really can't blame them for it. Do I feel I'm hiding who I am by not coming out to everyone? I used to think so, but not anymore. I'm simply exercising discretion with whom I tell.

I'm not exactly sure if I touched on how I reconcile my religion with my sexuality at length. I think there's bits and pieces in there. All I'm hoping is someone got something useful out of this post, since this seems like a very supportive community and I personally believe we can learn a lot from each other by hearing about one another's experiences.
 
Last edited:
Hey there, I'm Hektor and my gender is neutrois. I started exploring the full spectrum of my identity about this time last year, and I've managed to connect with some awesome real-life TGNC folks since then! My pronouns are se/sim/ser.

On the topic of religion, I was also born and raised Protestant, and I hold my faith near and dear to my heart to this day. While I'm pretty much heterosexual, I've been thinking about the relationship between my faith and the LGBTQ+ community. Fortunately, I was taught in a way that emphasized my personal relationship with God, rather than any set of rituals or any kind of clergy-based interactions. It's only a small step further down that path to say that I should just live as God would have me live: treating others as I would like to be treated, and generally spreading love in the world. I believe that God loves all of His children, regardless of their experience here on Earth or whatever else may happen in life. That's what really matters. It's absolutely awful to see people being rude and violent towards other people and justifying it with Christianity, but it isn't my place to condemn them for it. I have to let them handle their own relationships with God, and simply repay kindness for ill will as I am able. It's really hard to take the high road, but I find it extremely rewarding when I do.
 
Last edited:
so i guess now that i'm walking away from things, i want to leave with a positive message regarding myself. tl;dr: yeah, i'm not a guy. i'm a transgender girl named amber. let's get into it.

all of my life i've felt different. and up until a few months ago i'd felt really sure that it was just me being gay. which i'm not by the way, i've become more open to the spectrum of sexuality and consider myself bisexual. but that's besides the point. after a lot of thought and self-realization i realized that i looked in the mirror and saw someone behind a mask. i've been raised as a boy, and i'm not one. i am a girl.

the worst part is knowing that i'll never be able to come out. god, i don't even know how i'd tell anyone. i feel... ashamed. i know people just say "well accept yourself! love it! any haters can be removed from your life!" but it's just... not that simple. i couldn't do it, especially not right now. my friends on here have helped me so much. thank you starry blanket, Eevee General, and Reverb, along with SteelEdges and Private_PenQuin to coming to myself. really, m00ns has helped me learn to love myself. love m00ns.

anyways, i just. i want to wear dresses. i want boobs. i want to be called she/her. i want to wear makeup. i want long hair. i want to feel... pretty. not handsome. and i will, one day. i don't think i'll ever change my sex parts, and that's just personal preference; definitely nothing against anybody who chooses to. i believe that is a personal choice, and one that i do not wish to partake in. it just scares me. i'm worried i'll never find love if i don't do that. finding someone who loves me unconditionally... it'll happen one day. it may not be today, but one day. i know i'll get there one day.

that's basically it. i just wanted to come out and share a bit of my story to people on here. i'm sick of being called 'he' or 'him'. it almost feels like an insult, even though i know 100% it's not. it just hurts because i'm not a boy. so yeah, i'd like to ask for my fellow members to call me with female pronouns to be respectful. i can't live a lie any longer, and i'm leaving behind rylan. i'm amber now. i always have been. to finish this off, a quote.

– "So does this mean you're going to be wearing girl's clothing from now on?"
– "Oh honey. I've been wearing boy's clothing since I was born. But not anymore. Now I wear my clothing. My very own, girl, clothing."
–– Transparent​
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top