SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

Alright, this one might be a bit of a reach, but something that crossed my mind watching the First Movie for Mewtwo's "birthday".

Does the anime at any point present absolute and irrefutable proof that the DNA Mewtwo is cloned from is Mew's DNA? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder if perhaps Mewtwo is based on not just an enhanced sample, but possibly a unique species of Pokemon like a mutation or deficient mutation/breed of Mew. To elaborate on my line of thinking:

- Mewtwo is supposed to not just be an exact, but an enhanced clone of Mew based on the DNA sample the scientists procured so that it can be the perfect fighting being. Yet if Mewtwo here is taken as accurate to the games, or we account for what a later portrayal implies, Mewtwo lacks a particularly useful battle trait: Mew's ridiculously expansive movepool. The manga's depiction gives a justification for this imperfection since Mewtwo was more of a hybrid between Mew's DNA and Blaine's, but in the anime the only thing ever definitively stated to be used in the cloning process is the supposed Mew sample the archaeologists found.

- The Team Plasma Mewtwo makes me wonder since a separate set of scientists ended up with what seems an identical Pokemon (Physically) despite having no reason for us to believe they had access to the work from the original; Mewtwo went into hiding and wiped the memories of Team Rocket, the only people who would both know of its existence and actually have notes of that sort regarding its origin and creation. If Mewtwo's DNA was that of a different species/genome, I could actually believe that they came to the same mon in what was more of a straight cloning experiment, rather than making the exact same enhancements to what are not-likely-identical samples of Mew DNA.

Even in the movie, I don't remember any empirical proof of the DNA's origin, as they recover the sample from a temple with something that at best looks like a few hairs, which I don't think would have enough DNA to reconstruct the important parts of an organism. Most times it's reaffirmed are Mewtwo boasting, and the best he can know is what the scientists told him before he obliterated the lab.
My theory has always been that Mewtwo is just a mutated Mew, and Fuji's Mewtwo wasn't the first. A good real world comparison would be if humans were Mew and two humans had a baby with... hydrocephalus (big head full of fluid, it's a birth defect and very dangerous). Hydrocephalus Baby would be Mewtwo. Naturally occurring, but rare due to being a defect (then take into account Mew's own rarity and bam!) so what Fuji did was take the DNA of a healthy Mew and create a "defective" clone. Mewtwo.

It would explain why Mewtwo has its own Mega Stones (which are supposed to be ancient, btw) because the specific gene that turns a Mew into a Mewtwo could've been accidentally recreated by Fuji as well as being what reacts to the Mega Stone, thus explaining the lack of Mega Mew (for now).
 
My theory has always been that Mewtwo is just a mutated Mew, and Fuji's Mewtwo wasn't the first. A good real world comparison would be if humans were Mew and two humans had a baby with... hydrocephalus (big head full of fluid, it's a birth defect and very dangerous). Hydrocephalus Baby would be Mewtwo. Naturally occurring, but rare due to being a defect (then take into account Mew's own rarity and bam!) so what Fuji did was take the DNA of a healthy Mew and create a "defective" clone. Mewtwo.

It would explain why Mewtwo has its own Mega Stones (which are supposed to be ancient, btw) because the specific gene that turns a Mew into a Mewtwo could've been accidentally recreated by Fuji as well as being what reacts to the Mega Stone, thus explaining the lack of Mega Mew (for now).
This seems like a plausible theory since in the games as well, Mewtwo wasn't just cloned but outright birthed from a Mew. Maybe the experiment was to induce the mutation in the fetal offspring.
 
So I've been replaying X again, and something I just thought was the garden in Parfum Palace. Does it have any significance? For people who don't know, 3 of the 4 gardens in the garden are a Pokemon.


It is a Solrock, Chandelure, and a Pyroar. I think it's possible these could of been 3 Pokemon used by the king of Kalos. Lysandre also has a Pyroar, which the king might also have had if the garden is showing three of his Pokemon. I'm not sure if it would lead to anything major, but it is a detail I just thought about and seems logical that the 3 Pokemon engraved into hedges would of belonged to the king.
 

Pikachu315111

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So I've been replaying X again, and something I just thought was the garden in Parfum Palace. Does it have any significance? For people who don't know, 3 of the 4 gardens in the garden are a Pokemon.


It is a Solrock, Chandelure, and a Pyroar. I think it's possible these could of been 3 Pokemon used by the king of Kalos. Lysandre also has a Pyroar, which the king might also have had if the garden is showing three of his Pokemon. I'm not sure if it would lead to anything major, but it is a detail I just thought about and seems logical that the 3 Pokemon engraved into hedges would of belonged to the king.
Hmm, well they could be reference to King Louis XIV. King Louis XIV was known as "The Sun King" so that would explain Solrock. Pyroar's mane resembles a sun and is a male lion which are associated with royalty. Chandelure could be a representation of not King Louis XIV himself but his home, the Palace of Versailles which Parfum Palace is based on. Chandelure is based on a chandelier which is often thought as an symbol of decadence. Palace of Versailles is filled with, amoung other things, extravagant chandeliers. Also being a Fire-type is sort of matches with the "sun" theme.

I'm not so sure if those were the Pokemon the king used if by the king you mean AZ. I suppose maybe his father, grandfather, or kings before them could have had these Pokemon but I think they were just picked for their symbolism rather then being based on the king's Pokemon.

And before anyone brings it up, the 4th garden not based on the Pokemon I think is just suppose to be a maze. Not only was it used as a puzzle in the game, but looking at the actual gardens of the Palace of Versailles it has a few hedge mazes so it is an actual thing (actually from what I can tell the Gardens of Versailles don't really have any gardens decorated to look like an animal, just mazes and symbols).
 
I never thought of them being symbols for the sun, that's a good idea.

I did mean AZ, but I thought there was a different king? I might be wrong, but there must of been kings before him. It doesn't seem far off though that they could of been favorite Pokemon to the royal family, ones that AZ used but have died over 3,000 years, or any other possibilities. They might not even be the original hedges.
 
An obscurely placed riddle for me. Lt. Surge fought in The Great War. In Kalos, King AZ talked about a war that killed his Eternal Flower Floette. Are those wars somehow connected? I mean, the near complete lack of adults and oblivious Gym Leaders (also kids) must count for something.
 

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An obscurely placed riddle for me. Lt. Surge fought in The Great War. In Kalos, King AZ talked about a war that killed his Eternal Flower Floette. Are those wars somehow connected? I mean, the near complete lack of adults and oblivious Gym Leaders (also kids) must count for something.
The wars happened some 3000 years apart and in different regions, so probably not.
 
An obscurely placed riddle for me. Lt. Surge fought in The Great War. In Kalos, King AZ talked about a war that killed his Eternal Flower Floette. Are those wars somehow connected? I mean, the near complete lack of adults and oblivious Gym Leaders (also kids) must count for something.
I double checked the dialogue on Bulbapedia, and I couldn't find the war Lt. Surge fought in ever called "The Great War," it was only every referred to vaguely as "the war." But to parrot Codraroll above me, no it is very unlikely since the time gap is way too large.

For trivia, The Great War is the other name for WWI, also known as The War of No More Kings or The War to End All Wars. The last one obviously got less popular after WWII, but if you get technical every single major international conflict since is the result of WWI. We don't talk about it as much because unlike WWII's most realistic version of "good vs. evil" that we love to romanticize, everyone involved in WWI was either a villain or incompetent. It's like the world's greatest embarrassment of diplomacy more than anything. That and the USA didn't get involved until late and botched the peace treaty hardcore, so we want you to forget about that.

Why this real world history lesson? Because Red and Blue were weird and back then Gamefreak hadn't decided if the Pokemon Universe was entirely separate from our own yet. All the regions up to Shinnoh are direct lifts from parts of Japan, Raichu and several other pokedex entries talk about taking down full grown elephants, and most importantly Lt. Surge is known as the Lightning American. While this was obviously dropped in later entries as Gamefreak came up with all-original parallels like Unova and Kalos, it could be true that Lt. Surge and his company fought in WWI. Err, in-series anyway, before the retcon.

Although even for 1996, Lt. Surge looks very good for a WWI veteran, so more likely the reference was to the Gulf War of 1990-1991.
 
I double checked the dialogue on Bulbapedia, and I couldn't find the war Lt. Surge fought in ever called "The Great War," it was only every referred to vaguely as "the war." But to parrot Codraroll above me, no it is very unlikely since the time gap is way too large.

For trivia, The Great War is the other name for WWI, also known as The War of No More Kings or The War to End All Wars. The last one obviously got less popular after WWII, but if you get technical every single major international conflict since is the result of WWI. We don't talk about it as much because unlike WWII's most realistic version of "good vs. evil" that we love to romanticize, everyone involved in WWI was either a villain or incompetent. It's like the world's greatest embarrassment of diplomacy more than anything. That and the USA didn't get involved until late and botched the peace treaty hardcore, so we want you to forget about that.

Why this real world history lesson? Because Red and Blue were weird and back then Gamefreak hadn't decided if the Pokemon Universe was entirely separate from our own yet. All the regions up to Shinnoh are direct lifts from parts of Japan, Raichu and several other pokedex entries talk about taking down full grown elephants, and most importantly Lt. Surge is known as the Lightning American. While this was obviously dropped in later entries as Gamefreak came up with all-original parallels like Unova and Kalos, it could be true that Lt. Surge and his company fought in WWI. Err, in-series anyway, before the retcon.

Although even for 1996, Lt. Surge looks very good for a WWI veteran, so more likely the reference was to the Gulf War of 1990-1991.
I'd bet in the original it was Vietnam (his original fatigues looked like forest/jungle fatigues which works with Vietnam). but his HGSS outfit clearly screamed Gulf War (those pants are definitely desert fatigues).
 
I'd bet in the original it was Vietnam (his original fatigues looked like forest/jungle fatigues which works with Vietnam). but his HGSS outfit clearly screamed Gulf War (those pants are definitely desert fatigues).
Another point is that Lt. Surge was a pilot (some of his Fame Checker data from FR/LG was that he used his electric pokemon to power his plane). While there were some planes used in Vietnam, they were used more in the Gulf War.

But you are right in that his old military fatigues look more Vietnam and then shifted to Gulf War. Not that I expect my Japanese made monster capturing game that might or might not have allusions to real earth to get US military uniforms correct.

Although I still think he looks too young for a Vietnam vet also for 1996, but it's not THAT weird.
 
Was playing X more yesterday and my brother asked me if I could post his Nurse Joy theory here.


He thinks they are all Ditto, because they all look the same.


It may be a game design choice, but why do they all look the same? Clones? Super small gene pool? Ditto? It's still something we haven't talked a lot about here.
 
Was playing X more yesterday and my brother asked me if I could post his Nurse Joy theory here.


He thinks they are all Ditto, because they all look the same.


It may be a game design choice, but why do they all look the same? Clones? Super small gene pool? Ditto? It's still something we haven't talked a lot about here.
In the games: making an individual sprite (now model) for each and every Nurse in the game is a pain and was nearly impossible to tell the difference back in the day and would still be difficult to tell. How many youngsters, beauties, ace trainers, etc. look exactly like others of their class? It's just one of those things you have to accept as the games are only a window into the world and not a 100% faithful recreation of it (unless you think a huge city like Saffron or Goldenrod only have 100+ people and tons of buildings without entrances).
In the anime: It really is just an in-joke referencing the tendency in the game to recycle character sprites.
 

Karxrida

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Didn't it stop being a joke in the anime, and they started to play it completely straight? I know early on they made jokes about it, but I don't recall those jokes cropping up later on after Johto.
 
Didn't it stop being a joke in the anime, and they started to play it completely straight? I know early on they made jokes about it, but I don't recall those jokes cropping up later on after Johto.
That implies that the writers know what they are doing. Also, Johto is right when Brock left for the second time, leaving out a major element in the Joy/Jenny gag (Brock's ability to recognize which Joy/Jenny is which) and by the time he returned, they likely forgot about the joke.
 

Pikachu315111

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Didn't it stop being a joke in the anime, and they started to play it completely straight? I know early on they made jokes about it, but I don't recall those jokes cropping up later on after Johto.
They referenced it, I remember May and I think Dawn confused about seeing Nurse Joy again and the Joy showing them their family/graduation picture (though I don't think it was done with Serena). Also in Sinnoh they had one episode featuring two young Joys and an episode featuring a young Jenny, so they not only referenced it but also looked a bit into the idea.

Also there's an upcoming episode where an Nurse Joy is trying to work with her Audino partner (which can Mega Evolve) and they show her graduation day with all the other Nurse Joys (though oddly, though the chief nurse has the same hair, I don't think she's a Joy).
 
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So I've been replaying X again, and something I just thought was the garden in Parfum Palace. Does it have any significance? For people who don't know, 3 of the 4 gardens in the garden are a Pokemon.


It is a Solrock, Chandelure, and a Pyroar. I think it's possible these could of been 3 Pokemon used by the king of Kalos. Lysandre also has a Pyroar, which the king might also have had if the garden is showing three of his Pokemon. I'm not sure if it would lead to anything major, but it is a detail I just thought about and seems logical that the 3 Pokemon engraved into hedges would of belonged to the king.
Is it possible that Lysandre was related to the King of. Kalos?
Hmm, well they could be reference to King Louis XIV. King Louis XIV was known as "The Sun King" so that would explain Solrock. Pyroar's mane resembles a sun and is a male lion which are associated with royalty. Chandelure could be a representation of not King Louis XIV himself but his home, the Palace of Versailles which Parfum Palace is based on. Chandelure is based on a chandelier which is often thought as an symbol of decadence. Palace of Versailles is filled with, amoung other things, extravagant chandeliers. Also being a Fire-type is sort of matches with the "sun" theme.

I'm not so sure if those were the Pokemon the king used if by the king you mean AZ. I suppose maybe his father, grandfather, or kings before them could have had these Pokemon but I think they were just picked for their symbolism rather then being based on the king's Pokemon.

And before anyone brings it up, the 4th garden not based on the Pokemon I think is just suppose to be a maze. Not only was it used as a puzzle in the game, but looking at the actual gardens of the Palace of Versailles it has a few hedge mazes so it is an actual thing (actually from what I can tell the Gardens of Versailles don't really have any gardens decorated to look like an animal, just mazes and symbols).
King Louis XIV helped build the palace of Versailles, which also has an interesting garden!
 
If by "interesting", you mean "freaking huge and open", then yes it is.

From what I remember, it was actually kind of bland. There were more interesting gardens in terms of plant variety at Paris.
I don't know what to say. Also, it was Louis the 14th who originally helped make Versailles. I like how Kalos is based around France like this (and the Eiffel Tower!)
 
Pretty sure it was directly said he's a descendant of the king of Kalos, or some other royalty.

"True. I'm a descendant of the king's younger brother. That being said, that story is 3,000 years old, so it might not be entirely reliable."

When in Lysandre Cafe.
You're correct, he says this right after you get back to Lumiose after the 4th gym at Lysandre Cafe. Granted, we only have his word to take on all this, and even he seems doubtful.

Now this is just my personal theory now: I believe that Lysandre thinks he's royalty, and that he deliberately keeps a kingly image, but that it's all in his head. He's not really related to royalty. Lysandre's character is one of hypocrisy and delusion, and I feel that being a self-proclaimed descendant of royalty just adds another layer of depth and conflict. He set himself up as a hero and leader, but faced with failures, short comings, and rejection turned to darker ends. Plus he's taken upon himself to judge the world because he thinks he is an authority in it, a king, when in reality he is anything but. He has no right to judge, but he thinks he does and thinks he's responsible for it.

For trivia, some feel Lysandre was partially inspired by Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Talk to a certain NPC in Snowbelle city to see the reference.

Last question: anybody else pronounce it with the King's English so it sounds like Lysander (from Midsummer Night's Dream) instead of "dray" like in Andre?
 
You're correct, he says this right after you get back to Lumiose after the 4th gym at Lysandre Cafe. Granted, we only have his word to take on all this, and even he seems doubtful.

Now this is just my personal theory now: I believe that Lysandre thinks he's royalty, and that he deliberately keeps a kingly image, but that it's all in his head. He's not really related to royalty. Lysandre's character is one of hypocrisy and delusion, and I feel that being a self-proclaimed descendant of royalty just adds another layer of depth and conflict. He set himself up as a hero and leader, but faced with failures, short comings, and rejection turned to darker ends. Plus he's taken upon himself to judge the world because he thinks he is an authority in it, a king, when in reality he is anything but. He has no right to judge, but he thinks he does and thinks he's responsible for it.

For trivia, some feel Lysandre was partially inspired by Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Talk to a certain NPC in Snowbelle city to see the reference.

Last question: anybody else pronounce it with the King's English so it sounds like Lysander (from Midsummer Night's Dream) instead of "dray" like in Andre?
That's how I've always pronounced it, didn't know I was saying it wrong.
 
You're correct, he says this right after you get back to Lumiose after the 4th gym at Lysandre Cafe. Granted, we only have his word to take on all this, and even he seems doubtful.

Now this is just my personal theory now: I believe that Lysandre thinks he's royalty, and that he deliberately keeps a kingly image, but that it's all in his head. He's not really related to royalty. Lysandre's character is one of hypocrisy and delusion, and I feel that being a self-proclaimed descendant of royalty just adds another layer of depth and conflict. He set himself up as a hero and leader, but faced with failures, short comings, and rejection turned to darker ends. Plus he's taken upon himself to judge the world because he thinks he is an authority in it, a king, when in reality he is anything but. He has no right to judge, but he thinks he does and thinks he's responsible for it.

For trivia, some feel Lysandre was partially inspired by Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Talk to a certain NPC in Snowbelle city to see the reference.

Last question: anybody else pronounce it with the King's English so it sounds like Lysander (from Midsummer Night's Dream) instead of "dray" like in Andre?
I always said it in King's English. Doesn't seem right to say it any other way to me.
 

Pikachu315111

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I pronounced Lysandre's name as "lis-saan-dray" Though apparently the official way to pronounce it is "lie-sand-der".

How does everyone pronounce AZ's name? I actually pronounce it as "aaz" though I heard it's suppose to be pronounced as the individual letters "A-Z".
 
How does everyone pronounce AZ's name? I actually pronounce it as "aaz" though I heard it's suppose to be pronounced as the individual letters "A-Z".
Aaz, A-Z, A-Zed, there are a couple of ways. Look, I know you're talking about the super-tall, super-old guy with the special Floette, so I couldn't care less how you say it.
 
I pronounced Lysandre's name as "lis-saan-dray" Though apparently the official way to pronounce it is "lie-sand-der".

How does everyone pronounce AZ's name? I actually pronounce it as "aaz" though I heard it's suppose to be pronounced as the individual letters "A-Z".
HA! Score one for my team!

For AZ, I pronounce it like "as," even though I know they were trying to be clever and go for "alpha-omega" or something else completely stupid. Although I find "Ay-zee" like in "daisy" to be another good one, because I just imagine him as a hobo Fonzie from Happy Days.
 

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